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Old 2008-10-31, 10:24   Link #1541
arkhangelsk
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Well, Wild Goose:

1) I did a good deal of work on weapons speed, but not so much on mage speed. I think Tk is more responsible for this than me.
2) But in any case, I went along with this general position, but despite what my opponents like to say, I'm always happy to consider new evidence. You find something good? Please do show me.
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Old 2008-10-31, 10:36   Link #1542
Wild Goose
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The strongest bit of evidence is that bit which ATC pointed out. Beyond that Fate apparently doesn't hit the afterburners that much, which only makes sense as afterburner = less manuverability and I personally have my doubts as to whether it can be sustained that long.

Oh and one more thing: it's not hypocritical if you're already half-assed and are unashamed about it.

*Goose kicks back in a half-assed manner, a cold one in hand*

And that concludes my teching for tonight. I'm going to relax and enjoy coming home early (it's 11.34 pm here) for the first time this week. Most of our staff ditched us for a long holiday - in Nano context, the Aces went on holiday and the B-ranks had to save the day - which they did so admirably.

(FYI, my schedule this week was daily 9.00am - 2.30 am, and I normally only slept around 3.30am-4.00am due to having to drop off people before going home.)
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Old 2008-10-31, 10:45   Link #1543
Kyral
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My POV:

BJs are for absorbing damage so that the mage is not fully hit if something penetrates his barrier/shield/field.

We see it all the time, something goes through a shield and next we see the mage crashing into something.
BJs only lessen the damage of the impact on the mae but not everything and not the pain as it looks.

Well but I stopped reading much of the discussion as I was getting bored with it (well... it was the same ting over and over), so I apologise if what I am saying is already news from last week.


And now just for the lulz:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In fact, the barriers never so much as flash as the BJs are penetrated by whips (Precia), airblast (you know), something very soft looking (probably Garyu's cape, Ep11), hands (Ep12 with Sein) ... etc.
Well...

The whip was not a whip but a Device.
Airblasts are magical airblasts.
Garyuu is cool and if it was his cape, it only shows how awesome he is. (He is also a summon monster.)
Sein is a magical enhanced cyborg.

But as I said, in my opinion BJs only lessen the damage, they don't nullify it.

And never forget kids!

storytelling >>>>>>> rules
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Old 2008-10-31, 11:14   Link #1544
Tempy
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My God.

The Catgirl Massacre.

The blood. The bodies. The HORROR.
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Old 2008-10-31, 11:20   Link #1545
Wild Goose
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Oh come on, it's not that bad... the catgirls have been replaced by kitsune girls!

*watches as Kitsune Naomi chases Franz while waving her Naginata angrily*
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Old 2008-10-31, 12:13   Link #1546
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
All right, while I wait for the episodes I need today to copy, I'll go over this.

If they aren't Terran bullets, they don't have a reference to reality except for what we see them do. If they aren't animated at the same speeds as Terran bullets, we'll assume they are slower. Period.
Uh-huh. And what about this isn't hypocritical?

Keroko:
Well, it's animation, so obviously speeds aren't what they animate them to be.

Ark:
Well, they're not earth bullets, so obviously speeds aren't what they animate them to be.

Sounds a lot alike, doesn't it? It's because we're both saying the same thing, yet you for some reason think that you are perfectly right in changing things like bullet speed and concrete density in the Nanohaverse to match what you're saying, and yet you forbid me from using the limitations of animation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Here's what I actually said:


Somehow, when this passes Keroko, it becomes "Belka isn't a close combat magic style at all."
Pot. Kettle. Black. When I describe a possibility, you jump it just the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Anyway, note how no canon (to the best of my knowledge) went ignored or just cut off here. Even in a hastily thrown out solution, I make sure to take into account and fully accept the observation that modern Midchildrans opine that Belka is a close combat art (BTW, note that when Chrono first described Belka, it just aruteido (somewhat; to some degree) ignores the far fight) and my theory had to work with this fact.
And supported by the fact that we see all sorts of Belkan users that, if they use ranged attacks at all, use them optionally? Signum only used her bow once, Vita is the only one who uses her ranged attacks with some regularity, and Hayate is blatantly stated to use both Mid and Belkan, and in her long-ranged artillery barrage, she definitely used Mid circles to fire them.

Beyond them, every Belkan user, even the Ancient Belka users (as in, the original deal) were close combat specialists. Heck, even Signum and Vita, who have ranged attacks, prefer to get up and close. And you can't get more 'original users' then them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Let's go in Reverse Order:

For Ep24, you've actually done it before. My response here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1064. One can also infer a high possibility that were we actually allowed to see Nanoha flying into the wall, it'll turn out much like Ep11 and Ep16. But anyway.
However, your defense relies on forming a barrier on a distance between the mage and the object. This would prevent a Nanoha-shaped dent from forming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Ep16 used a Combat Cyborg, and had enough sound for VTLing. Subaru flew to the wall in about 9 frames (39828-39836). Her height as she hit the wall was about 240px on the 896x504px film. Say she's 150cm tall, and in that case range on impact is 5.89m (at 160 it is 6.29m), so let's say 6m since her range wasn't exactly zero in the first frame. 30/9*6m=20m/s. That's pretty fast but given the fact the wall gave way, her head hit the wall later (she hit torso first), and there should be enough time for the brain to have decelerated enough she'll have survived (if groggy, as we can clearly see, thus meaning whatever defenses were up were close to the limit, which does not bode well for her survival odds had it been Fate's impact ~10 times faster), and her body is half mechanical anyway so she has some survivability bonus there for her body too. If anything, the biggest problem is the wall. Should it have cracked like that under a 20m/s impact by a soft body (Subaru's frame might be hard, but the exterior should be relatively human) - might say something about the wall as well. Next.

Ep11. OK... the screen was sliding left (fortunately with no panning so everything was easy to line up) to follow our two crash divers. It took them ~19 frames to impact (38848-38866). Erio and Caro together were ~357px long, assume that = ~1.5m. The flight distance during those 19 frames, compensating for the motion of the camera works out to be ~832px, so distance = ~3.5m. 3.5/(19/30) = 5.52m/s *3600/1000 = ~19.9km/h. So, they hit the wall at 20km/h, and the wall dented worse than a car's collapsible front bender... Says a lot about Middie walls indeed, and a lot about their chances at survival in a higher speed impact, since those two were rather knocked out by this experience. Hopefully they'll have something other than their BJs on that day...
... and in the end you once again are doing what you keep preaching us not to do. Instead of looking at a scene and seeing cracked walls and thinking 'hmm, they must have hit that wall pretty fast for it to crack concrete' you go 'oh wait, my framerate calculations show speed X, but the walls did crack, which suggest a higher speed impact... Ah well, I'll just say the walls are crappy'

And seriously, saying 'the walls are soft!' is by far the lamest excuse you ever came up with. Is there anyone here besides you who actually buys this? If we appeal to author intent, that would destroy all the drama, as the drama would be 'Oh jeez, he/she got chucked into a wall!' Are you going to tell me buildings on earth in the Nanohaverse are made of jelly as well?

Nevermind that the pillar Erio was thrown in was a support pillar designed to keep the road from collapsing into the sewers. I may not be an expert on construction, but even I know that making primary support pillars out of material that breaks down when you throw stuff against it is not a viable option. No, that pillar was normal building material, made to last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In fact, the barriers never so much as flash as the BJs are penetrated by whips (Precia), airblast (you know), something very soft looking (probably Garyu's cape, Ep11), hands (Ep12 with Sein) ... etc. In all these cases, you'll have to invent something if you want to insist they penetrated a strong defense.
Whip I've explained, it was Precia's device (you seem to be the only one having problems with this...). Soft thing... wait, you mean Garyuu's tail? Tails can be very powerful (think Komodo dragon) and when combined with magical powerups -he is a close combat summon after all- I'm not surprised, Sein has A-rank strength, B-rank was enough for Subaru to smash concrete, not to mention Sein specializes in getting through stuff.

That, again, just leaves the bug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And you can't say that there is a need to deduce the existence of such things, except to satisfy your own desires.
Likewise, you can't say there's a need to alter the composition and strength of concrete material Mid is using for their constructions, except to satisfy your own desires.

How you can keep claiming not to be a hypocrite is beyond me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Do you mean those few low-detail scenes in say Ep2 A's? Remember the VTLing principle. The consistent measures do say that where time is known to be locked, magic crawls. Sorry.
You obviously don't have much experience in the animation business, do you?

Take the Divine Buster Extension example. It's 'voice locked' and yet as ATC pointed out, if it really were that speed, then the drama would make no sense, as even we could walk out of an attack like that.

Voice lock. Means. Nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The consistent measurements say that:
1) Mages sometimes have ways of surviving high speed impacts with concrete.
2) Often, they have trouble with moderate speed impacts with concrete.
2) BJs are extremely weak against KE, as can be seen in all the above. This is of course, consistent with their observable form and its physically mandated consequences ... etc.
3) Thus, BJs can't be what saved them when they hit concrete.
This of course ignores the observations that

1) Barrier Jackets reduced blows that could send people through concrete to mere bruises.
2) The victims ''having trouble' with 'moderate' blows get up and back into battle without much problems a shortly after impact.
3) Said kinetic attacks are, with one exception, from a high source of power capable of above-human destruction.
4) Barrier Jackets are an established form of defense in the Nanohaverse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The Frame Gaping is done. At the time of the white shockwave (11141-11149), there were no other objects that can be used as a distance and/or velocity reference. Considering the (though unevaluable) acceleration that has occurred, I see no reason to deny that a supersonic flight has taken place. Good observation, ATC!
Now this points out that the recent measured assumption of 'mages can't fly fast' has been rendered invalid, which raises the question, how many more times has this happened?

Sonic Form is blatantly said to be even faster then Fate's regular Barrier Jacket, and yet in episode 24 calculations would show her to be moving slower. However, since she went into Sonic Form, where the only advantage she gets is speed, she must have moved even faster.

Once again, framerate calculations show their flaws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Lack of serious conflict? Then why are some people h3xxbusted so badly they had to rewrite major portions of their characters.
Ironically, such conflict usually arose when we applied your calculations. Before we did that, we didn't have much problems. Indeed, after I began to advice newcomers not to place specific actual speeds on their character profiles, but instead comparisons, the amount of h4xxbusting lowered considerably.

Imagine that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You mentioned you ask questions like "Is she faster than Fate?" Well, then you obviously have to first find out how fast Fate flies, would you? And you presumably will go look at the anime to answer that.
Why should we? Power is measured via the members of the cast, the only thing we need to know is whether they are more powerful/faster/better then the members of the cast. There has never been a need to know how fast Fate is in order to make a character that I'm aware of. All that was needed was 'she's as fast as Fate' or something along the lines. In writing fiction, precise speeds matter even less then in animation.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-10-31 at 14:20.
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Old 2008-10-31, 12:37   Link #1547
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Personally, I always thought fate was a Supersonic Mage in strikers from the first time I watched it. Did everyone asside from one other person really never notice her insane accelleration and air concussion after transforming? Am I really the first person to VOICE that thought?

I mean, I based an entire segment of the mock battle in MSLN Test Dummies where Fate and EDI race each other off that observation...
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Old 2008-10-31, 12:45   Link #1548
Keroko
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Probably, I always assumed it myself (then again, I already assumed Fate to be capable of supersonic flight back in A's when her sonic form was revealed) but I never really thought of presenting such a clue.

Now I know I just have to find scenes with displays of power and strength that can't be measured.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-10-31 at 12:55.
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Old 2008-10-31, 12:50   Link #1549
PhoenixG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Oh come on, it's not that bad... the catgirls have been replaced by kitsune girls!

*watches as Kitsune Naomi chases Franz while waving her Naginata angrily*
If that happend, we got one angry FlameZ
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Old 2008-10-31, 13:25   Link #1550
Wild Goose
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Well, the problem with Kitsune girls is that if you liken them to M1911s during intimate moments, the tsun hits OVER NINE THOUSAND.

On the other hand they're more awesome than catgirls.
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Old 2008-10-31, 13:44   Link #1551
Sheba
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I prefer the bunnygirls

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Old 2008-10-31, 16:14   Link #1552
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Well, the problem with Kitsune girls is that if you liken them to M1911s during intimate moments, the tsun hits OVER NINE THOUSAND.

On the other hand they're more awesome than catgirls.
So the solution would be... don't liken them to firearms? That is of course, unless you're a masochist?
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Old 2008-10-31, 23:39   Link #1553
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Probably, I always assumed it myself (then again, I already assumed Fate to be capable of supersonic flight back in A's when her sonic form was revealed) but I never really thought of presenting such a clue.
Ahh, your dialogue mentality rears its ugly head, especially in the face of visuals.

ATC, being a SpaceBattles vet, knows how to present evidence. You should learn from him

Quote:
Now I know I just have to find scenes with displays of power and strength that can't be measured.
Actually, you need at least one reference to justify its leetness. Otherwise, here's the SoD answer: "Nice scene. No usable references for objective determination of parameters. Unusable."

SoD is not impressed by l33t looks, only by usable points of reference proving that a l33t event is taking place. I know they didn't teach you this in Animation School, but I wish you would use this experience in your animation career. If you are working on a show with a budget, there's no reason why you can't make a show that both looks l33t and IS l33t.

20 years later, when you get to make a speech on the Awards stage, you can say "When I was 20, I met the greatest influence in my animator's life, "Ark". I hated him, but he taught me the importance of consistency, how important it is that what I drew matched the story I intended to tell. Even now, whenever I draw a scene, in addition to making it look cool, I consider what he might say had he watched it in detail. And then I'll find another way to make it look cool. I don't know where you are, but thank you, "Ark"..."

Of course, the above is a joke, but I'll be very happy if a day does come when you stand on the awards table, Keroko.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Uh-huh. And what about this isn't hypocritical?

Keroko:
Well, it's animation, so obviously speeds aren't what they animate them to be.

Ark:
Well, they're not earth bullets, so obviously speeds aren't what they animate them to be.

Sounds a lot alike, doesn't it? It's because we're both saying the same thing, yet you for some reason think that you are perfectly right in changing things like bullet speed and concrete density in the Nanohaverse to match what you're saying, and yet you forbid me from using the limitations of animation?
I know that playing Judo with other people's words is part of debating, and I do that myself, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Here's What I
If they aren't Terran bullets, they don't have a reference to reality except for what we see them do. If they aren't animated at the same speeds as Terran bullets, we'll assume they are slower. Period.
And you completely inverted the meaning!

Quote:
And supported by the fact that we see all sorts of Belkan users that, if they use ranged attacks at all, use them optionally? Signum only used her bow once, Vita is the only one who uses her ranged attacks with some regularity, and Hayate is blatantly stated to use both Mid and Belkan, and in her long-ranged artillery barrage, she definitely used Mid circles to fire them.
In other words, Belkans have long-range means of fire, to the point of borrowing a bit from Mid, and use them where necessary.

Quote:
Beyond them, every Belkan user, even the Ancient Belka users (as in, the original deal) were close combat specialists. Heck, even Signum and Vita, who have ranged attacks, prefer to get up and close. And you can't get more 'original users' then them.
Let's see. We really have a few ancient Belka users.
Carim: Didn't fight.
Acous: Never saw his fighting style.
Hayate: Ranged, even borrows a bit from Mid to do this.
Signum: TWO ranged forms (Snake and Bow), the first is used quite often. In Ep26, she didn't annihilate those TIIs by going close.
Vita: You admit it - she has ranged attacks and uses them w/ fair regularity.
Shamal: Only one real attack from her the whole show, and that through the Book. Of course, that was ranged - she's pretty helpless close.
Reinforce: Used a mixture of Mid and Belkan magics, but opted for lots of ranged and area attacks there too.
Rein II: She can do close combat? With a height of 30cm?

I suppose that should be enough, at least, for my original thesis that the close combat thing of Belka might be somewhat exaggerated.

Quote:
However, your defense relies on forming a barrier on a distance between the mage and the object. This would prevent a Nanoha-shaped dent from forming.
Barriers don't have to be round, do they? If they do, it rules out the barrier jacket's barriers and fields saving Nanoha too.

Quote:
... and in the end you once again are doing what you keep preaching us not to do. Instead of looking at a scene and seeing cracked walls and thinking 'hmm, they must have hit that wall pretty fast for it to crack concrete' you go 'oh wait, my framerate calculations show speed X, but the walls did crack, which suggest a higher speed impact... Ah well, I'll just say the walls are crappy'
As a preacher of measuring velocities off the screen, why do you think I would ignore the velocity data in this case?

Quote:
And seriously, saying 'the walls are soft!' is by far the lamest excuse you ever came up with. Is there anyone here besides you who actually buys this? If we appeal to author intent,
I suppose not, because probably nobody other than you and me were seriously looking at the frames. Actually only me, since you should at least have anticipated my response (even if you don't agree with it) and tried to head it off if you had looked into the scene in detail.

Quote:
that would destroy all the drama, as the drama would be 'Oh jeez, he/she got chucked into a wall!'
I'm not an animator, but wouldn't that intent be reinforced by showing the guy flying fast enough to plausibly dent a wall? If you need more time of flight, the distance he flies can be increased - instead of flying a few meters, he can fly 150 in those 19 frames.

Quote:
Are you going to tell me buildings on earth in the Nanohaverse are made of jelly as well?
Go back to post 1064 - it is mentioned there.

Quote:
Nevermind that the pillar Erio was thrown in was a support pillar designed to keep the road from collapsing into the sewers. I may not be an expert on construction, but even I know that making primary support pillars out of material that breaks down when you throw stuff against it is not a viable option. No, that pillar was normal building material, made to last.
Unless the strength of the structure comes elsewhere, say from metal poles set in the center.

By the way, is it Physics On for you now? Might want to rethink that one. The moment Physics comes on, the first thing that will happen is that your barrier jackets become exactly as I describe.

Quote:
Whip I've explained, it was Precia's device (you seem to be the only one having problems with this...).
Which looks exactly like a whip, and wasn't used in any spectacular manner. Most people are "not having problems with this" because otherwise they'll have to face up to some unpleasant realities.

Quote:
Soft thing... wait, you mean Garyuu's tail? Tails can be very powerful (think Komodo dragon) and when combined with magical powerups -he is a close combat summon after all- I'm not surprised,
Oh, that was the tail? Neverthless, it is a very soft looking thing and not moving that fast, and it penetrated. Poor Erio. He would probably have done a lot better if he had hard shoulder pads

Quote:
Sein has A-rank strength, B-rank was enough for Subaru to smash concrete, not to mention Sein specializes in getting through stuff.
Sein specializes in getting through stuff so much she has to get Lutecia to turn her barriers and fields off before she can extract her. She was even trying to attack, just get the case ... and she penetrated. No blades, no nothing, just hands.

Quote:
That, again, just leaves the bug.
Which has to be dealt with.
Quote:
Likewise, you can't say there's a need to alter the composition and strength of concrete material Mid is using for their constructions, except to satisfy your own desires.
You mean, the observations?

Quote:
Take the Divine Buster Extension example. It's 'voice locked' and yet as ATC pointed out, if it really were that speed, then the drama would make no sense, as even we could walk out of an attack like that.
[grant=Wasn't Six Seconds]The problem in that scene was not so much the range, but the time to react. There was no way to make that scene look good. It wasn't six seconds? So how much was it? 3? 2? Even with 1 she should have gotten out of the way. So we use less, but now we don't have time for her shock and her face changes. So changing the time does nothing, even in a dramatic sense.[/grant]

Quote:
This of course ignores the observations that

1) Barrier Jackets reduced blows that could send people through concrete to mere bruises.
Replace "Barrier Jacket" with "something".

Quote:
2) The victims ''having trouble' with 'moderate' blows get up and back into battle without much problems a shortly after impact.
That's because moderate means moderate. In any case, if those scenes show BJ defences, they place nice upper limits for it far less than what would be needed to survive the high speed impacts. De facto, they disqualify it.

Quote:
3) Said kinetic attacks are, with one exception, from a high source of power capable of above-human destruction.
We actually SAW those attacks. THe "above human" destruction was not shown. They may be capable of that, but that's no help considering what we see.

Quote:
4) Barrier Jackets are an established form of defense in the Nanohaverse.
So are barriers and shields in general.

Quote:
Now this points out that the recent measured assumption of 'mages can't fly fast' has been rendered invalid, which raises the question, how many more times has this happened?
It is the very nature of science that occasionally, new discoveries cause old theories to change.

Besides, it only slightly shifted from "they can't fly fast" to "given a long runup, one of them could work up to a supersonic speed". It clearly is not a very common flight form, as Wild Goose points out.

Quote:
Sonic Form is blatantly said to be even faster then Fate's regular Barrier Jacket, and yet in episode 24 calculations would show her to be moving slower. However, since she went into Sonic Form, where the only advantage she gets is speed, she must have moved even faster.

Once again, framerate calculations show their flaws.
Why is it not "the dialogue shows their flaws?" What happened to attempts to rationalize speed in terms of acceleration rather than velocity?

Quote:
Ironically, such conflict usually arose when we applied your calculations. Before we did that, we didn't have much problems. Indeed, after I began to advice newcomers not to place specific actual speeds on their character profiles, but instead comparisons, the amount of h4xxbusting lowered considerably.

Why should we? Power is measured via the members of the cast, the only thing we need to know is whether they are more powerful/faster/better then the members of the cast. There has never been a need to know how fast Fate is in order to make a character that I'm aware of. All that was needed was 'she's as fast as Fate' or something along the lines. In writing fiction, precise speeds matter even less then in animation.
One day, this "She's as fast as Fate" chara needs to intercept a supersonic flying jet fighter operated by some illegal mass-weapon organization flying at Mach 2. The author writes she makes the intercept from 135 relative bearing, implying a speed of over Mach 2.8. Now what.
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Old 2008-11-01, 00:17   Link #1554
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
So the solution would be... don't liken them to firearms? That is of course, unless you're a masochist?
Well the exact context when something like this:

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Besides, it only slightly shifted from "they can't fly fast" to "given a long runup, one of them could work up to a supersonic speed". It clearly is not a very common flight form, as Wild Goose points out.
Well, Fate has always been rather special in that regard - she is a Fragile Speedster, afterall.

Also, to expand abit on what I said, Fate hitting the afterburners is of debatable effectiveness. For one thing, more speed = less manuverability, which is a concern because magic rounds are faster than mages (look, we've seen so many chase shots that were only evaded with high speed dodges and no outrunning, so that means magic rounds have to be faster, up to a certain point, obviously), unless you can outrun the shot, which is all fine and well if you're the equivalent of an SR-71 in terms of speed but not if your afterburner doesn't give you that extra oomph.

Of course when she goes into Sonic Form she's blitzing people; part of the extra hitting power has to be coming from the greater inertia of high speed that she's moving at speed.

But as for the normal flying... there's no point in afterburner if you outrun your targets and have to double back to pick up the chase again.

And lets not forget that the TSAB isn't a real military that actually trains for killing people (something of which I intend to explore abit in TF6, the choice between killing and not killing and the different viewpoints between Franz, who accepts killing as necessary, and the Forwards, who don't want to kill).

Quote:
One day, this "She's as fast as Fate" chara needs to intercept a supersonic flying jet fighter operated by some illegal mass-weapon organization flying at Mach 2. The author writes she makes the intercept from 135 relative bearing, implying a speed of over Mach 2.8. Now what.
She hops into one of the F-14Ms at Abenobashi or the Avenger and goes afterburner, that's what.

Remember, Ark, it's not hypocritical if you were already half-assed to begin with.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-11-01 at 00:35.
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Old 2008-11-01, 05:19   Link #1555
Keroko
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
SoD is not impressed by l33t looks, only by usable points of reference proving that a l33t event is taking place. I know they didn't teach you this in Animation School, but I wish you would use this experience in your animation career. If you are working on a show with a budget, there's no reason why you can't make a show that both looks l33t and IS l33t.
In Fate's case, that would mean reducing all shots to close-ups and avoiding any reference point by which speed may be calculated, including but not limited to buildings, mountains, top-side views when no clouds are present, other objects in the sky, which presents a problem when doing combat scenes as you will have to present other enemies, and you can't always make them fight in clouds... that would make for a rather boring anime.

Animating fights at high-speed is cool, but you an only do it so many times before people start wanting variety. They want to see the characters fight, not merely closeups of their faces or flashes of light in the distance.

The greatest downside of being a spacebattle vet is that spacebattle vets are used to measuring live-action scenes, which due to their nature of being filmed with real people rather then drawings, are much more rooted in accuracy, yet at the same time it presents limits that anime needs not follow, like voice-lock or combat animation. Battles in shows like DBZ, that always take place with speeds beyond what the human eye can see, do both on a regular basis. They animate the fights so that we, the audience, can see them, but they're still moving at speeds far beyond the human eye. At the same time they still let the characters yell, grunt and cry out, which in live-action would voice-lock the scene. In animation, it doesn't.

Even ATC, who is a spacebattle vet, realizes this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Of course, the above is a joke, but I'll be very happy if a day does come when you stand on the awards table, Keroko.
Should a day like that come, I will fully admit my being wrong, and will probably invite you to the ceremony. However, personal experience has taught me otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I know that playing Judo with other people's words is part of debating, and I do that myself, but...

And you completely inverted the meaning!
Did I? You just blatantly said 'they aren't earth bullets, so we don't have to take their speed as representative of real bullets'

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In other words, Belkans have long-range means of fire, to the point of borrowing a bit from Mid, and use them where necessary.
Hayate was both born in a Mid era, and was granted her spell list by a book that had just finished absorbing a lot of Mid mages, and had been for the past decades. I'm not surprised she has a Mid spell list, but notice how none of the other Belkan mages do they same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Let's see. We really have a few ancient Belka users.
Carim: Didn't fight.
Acous: Never saw his fighting style.
Hayate: Ranged, even borrows a bit from Mid to do this.
Signum: TWO ranged forms (Snake and Bow), the first is used quite often. In Ep26, she didn't annihilate those TIIs by going close.
Vita: You admit it - she has ranged attacks and uses them w/ fair regularity.
Shamal: Only one real attack from her the whole show, and that through the Book. Of course, that was ranged - she's pretty helpless close.
Reinforce: Used a mixture of Mid and Belkan magics, but opted for lots of ranged and area attacks there too.
Rein II: She can do close combat? With a height of 30cm?
Zafira: Primarily close combat, with one ranged attack.
Zest: Purely close combat.
Vivio: Despite copying a large amount of spells from her Mid mothers, goes for close range. And this is important, because Vivio was both A: relying on her memories as the Saint King and B: plugged into the Cradle, which at one point took over her body and downloaded defense programs. Combat style? Close range.

Rein and Agito, I won't argue. They're small unison devices, so putting them in close combat is ridiculous. They're mostly supporting their Lords in unison anyway.

And note that I never denied them not having ranged attacks, I said that they preferred close combat. Why would Ancient Belka using knights prefer close combat if that is 'all that Mid remembers?' Obviously melee was central to Belkan magic, which is not surprising considering the power behind it. If you can throw a blow that sliced through steel drones like a knife through butter, imagine what you can do to an infantrymen. I don't care how much kevlar you're wearing, that blow is going to tear you in two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Barriers don't have to be round, do they? If they do, it rules out the barrier jacket's barriers and fields saving Nanoha too.
Barriers surrounding the Barrier Jacket, no. That has been proven by the manga.

Now I would ask you to find some backup for your theories. I presented mine, the manga and DVD booklets, as well as several quotes from the anime talking about Barrier Jacket strength, and presented several scenes supporting them, while at the same time countering your ranged-crash-barriers (as they certainly failed to show up in 11 and 16) but where is your canon backup for these barriers?

So far I've heard nothing beyond 'it's more in line with physics.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As a preacher of measuring velocities off the screen, why do you think I would ignore the velocity data in this case?
Mostly because of the element of Erio and Subaru cracking concrete support pillars and walls respectively. Last I checked, throwing soft objects at low speeds against concrete objects isn't exactly enough to dent them, much less cause major cracks. Yet, you throw away this observation, something you repeatedly keep telling us not to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I suppose not, because probably nobody other than you and me were seriously looking at the frames. Actually only me, since you should at least have anticipated my response (even if you don't agree with it) and tried to head it off if you had looked into the scene in detail.
I hadn't anticipated you to actually

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm not an animator, but wouldn't that intent be reinforced by showing the guy flying fast enough to plausibly dent a wall? If you need more time of flight, the distance he flies can be increased - instead of flying a few meters, he can fly 150 in those 19 frames.
Not necessarily, in fact, not at all. While I agree that the scene could have used a little speedup in that regard, animating it to be true speed would mean it happens too fast, which would make the audience go 'what just happened?' which is not a good thing. If an audience needs to watch a scene two or three times before they understand whats going on, you've made a bad scene. As for why they didn't let him fly 150 meters, that's because the heroes needed to stay together, throwing two of them 150 meters away doesn't do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Go back to post 1064 - it is mentioned there.
So basically, anything that doesn't happen on earth or with earth technology is subject to change in its very basics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Unless the strength of the structure comes elsewhere, say from metal poles set in the center.

By the way, is it Physics On for you now? Might want to rethink that one. The moment Physics comes on, the first thing that will happen is that your barrier jackets become exactly as I describe.
It's hardly Physics On for me, this is still me looking at it from an animators point of view, which dictates "Unless specifically stated to be otherwise, all material shall behave as normal"

To translate: Bullets are bullets, concrete is concrete, if the workings of either or both are different, then it should be stated somewhere in the anime. If not, assume its normal material.

StrikerS never stated it made its buildings out of a softer material, thus we assume them to be normal, and we go for the 'whoa, Erio just got chucked into a concrete pillar! Is he allright?' effect of the scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Which looks exactly like a whip, and wasn't used in any spectacular manner. Most people are "not having problems with this" because otherwise they'll have to face up to some unpleasant realities.
Either that, or you just don't want to admit you're the only one stubbornly thinking otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Oh, that was the tail? Neverthless, it is a very soft looking thing and not moving that fast, and it penetrated. Poor Erio. He would probably have done a lot better if he had hard shoulder pads
Signum's sword doesn't always move fast when she's slicing through steel drones either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Sein specializes in getting through stuff so much she has to get Lutecia to turn her barriers and fields off before she can extract her. She was even trying to attack, just get the case ... and she penetrated. No blades, no nothing, just hands.
'Getting through' and 'getting others through' are two different things. With Erio, she could be brutal in claiming the Relic, penetrating the Jacket with both IS and A-rank strength, or even just the A-rank strength alone. Imagine what would have happened if she was that brutal with Lutecia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You mean, the observations?
Observations work both ways. We both observed Erio cracking a concrete pillar at low speed. You alter the composition of building material, I say measuring framerates for speed is inacurate. We are both making observations, and both discarding the issues at hand that contradict our ideas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
[grant=Wasn't Six Seconds]The problem in that scene was not so much the range, but the time to react. There was no way to make that scene look good. It wasn't six seconds? So how much was it? 3? 2? Even with 1 she should have gotten out of the way. So we use less, but now we don't have time for her shock and her face changes. So changing the time does nothing, even in a dramatic sense.[/grant]
Of course it does, this is one of the advantages animation has over live action. Such a shot in live action would be very difficult to achieve, and they'd most likely would have to pull a matrix and bullet-time it (coincidentally, Matrix bullet time was inspired by anime). Anime doesn't have those limitations, and such a scene can be worked to show both the beam, the shock, and even the 'Uso!'

The fact that Vita didn't move out of the way combined with the fact that the DVD booklet labeled it as a high-speed attack, despite it being measured as one of the slowest attacks, blatantly shows that the measurements of the scene are not accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Replace "Barrier Jacket" with "something".
Considering Barrier Jackets are a valid and confirmed method of defense, I don't think I'll change it for something nameless and unconfirmed, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That's because moderate means moderate. In any case, if those scenes show BJ defences, they place nice upper limits for it far less than what would be needed to survive the high speed impacts. De facto, they disqualify it.
Considering the speed in question are still being argued by observation of impact damage, not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
We actually SAW those attacks. THe "above human" destruction was not shown. They may be capable of that, but that's no help considering what we see.
And yet wounds were prevented before by the Jackets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
So are barriers and shields in general.
And yet you disregard them as worthless so easily, you are denying Barrier Jackets to be the valid form of defense canon states them to be on multiple occasions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is the very nature of science that occasionally, new discoveries cause old theories to change.

Besides, it only slightly shifted from "they can't fly fast" to "given a long runup, one of them could work up to a supersonic speed". It clearly is not a very common flight form, as Wild Goose points out.
And yet, Fate shifted to Sonic Form during her final battle, despite measures showing her going slower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Why is it not "the dialogue shows their flaws?"
Which dialogue? The voice-lock?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What happened to attempts to rationalize speed in terms of acceleration rather than velocity?
Fate shifted into a weaker armor in order to fight an opponent, the only advantage she got in that armor was speed. If that speed was achievable in her higher armor Barrier Jacket, why would she discard it? The scene would make no sense. The only answer is that she is going for speed.

Let's appeal to author intent for a moment.

Intent A: We see Fate stripping down defenses for speed, but the calculations show her to be slower then even normal flight. The scene looks ridiculous.

Intent B: We see Fate stripping down defenses for speed, and see her crush the enemy she previously had trouble with. Hell yeah! Fate in sonic form owns your Ride Impulse, Tre!

I don't think we need to debate which is the authors intent here, obviously the intent was to go 'wow!' with B.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
One day, this "She's as fast as Fate" chara needs to intercept a supersonic flying jet fighter operated by some illegal mass-weapon organization flying at Mach 2. The author writes she makes the intercept from 135 relative bearing, implying a speed of over Mach 2.8. Now what.
Nothing, I'll read and enjoy it just the same. In fact, ATC has written several pieces with Nanoha mages being capable of supersonic flight, and nobody has raised issues about them so far. Others write mages with much slower speeds, and we read them just the same. We just read them and enjoy each others interpretations.
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Old 2008-11-01, 09:07   Link #1556
Wild Goose
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Something I want to comment on voice-lock: voice lock in anime is useless. Even if ark wants to disregard Nanoha, then what about Initial D? Drifts that take no more than 10 seconds in real life can take up to 1 minute, and they're all voice locked. Hell Initial D takes a normal 5-minute tsuiso and pulls it into 2 30 minute episodes!

Also, I don't subscribe to the belief that to go supersonic one needs to have a long runup. Fate flew up and punched through the sound barrier while in takeoff (a possible nod to a similar scene in Yukikaze episode 2, perhaps). Modern fighters can do the same thing.

Anyhow, little of this is of relevance to what I do, which is more grunt-based, focusing on infantry tactics, training hax (lol Terrain Recognition bonus), and character interactions. If mages in my verse need to go supersonic, they borrow one of ATC's modded Tomcats.
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Old 2008-11-01, 09:31   Link #1557
arkhangelsk
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
In Fate's case, that would mean reducing all shots to close-ups and avoiding any reference point by which speed may be calculated, including but not limited to buildings, mountains, top-side views when no clouds are present, other objects in the sky, which presents a problem when doing combat scenes as you will have to present other enemies, and you can't always make them fight in clouds... that would make for a rather boring anime.
Animating fights at high-speed is cool, but you an only do it so many times before people start wanting variety. They want to see the characters fight, not merely closeups of their faces or flashes of light in the distance.[/quote]

Here's my solution. The key is the VTL, so things are very simple. You do fast and slow. Make sure you do your voice-talking (and grunting... etc) on the fast scenes to "set" the speed of the fight. Do the fighting without talking (why do you talk so much while fighting for your life anyway? ) on the slow scenes. If you must talk on the slow scenes, telepathy (show it) is a nice idea. People will automatically calculate that all the thought processes sped up during the fight.

The main problem with Nanoha, if they indeed meant for the fast scenes to be the real ones, is that they keep doing the inverse of the above procedure - no talking on the fast scene, talking on the slow scene.

Quote:
The greatest downside of being a spacebattle vet is that spacebattle vets are used to measuring live-action scenes, which due to their nature of being filmed with real people rather then drawings, are much more rooted in accuracy, yet at the same time it presents limits that anime needs not follow, like voice-lock or combat animation. Battles in shows like DBZ, that always take place with speeds beyond what the human eye can see, do both on a regular basis. They animate the fights so that we, the audience, can see them, but they're still moving at speeds far beyond the human eye. At the same time they still let the characters yell, grunt and cry out, which in live-action would voice-lock the scene. In animation, it doesn't.

Even ATC, who is a spacebattle vet, realizes this.
In fact, the fact they talked too much during the "last 5 minutes of Namek" (you remember that?) is one of the things that make that part all rather, uh, unrationalizable, except to throw out the whole "5 minutes" part. Obviously, Freeza was just wrong

Quote:
Should a day like that come, I will fully admit my being wrong, and will probably invite you to the ceremony. However, personal experience has taught me otherwise.
No, no. If you ever go up to the stand, I'll be happy for you, no matter what production you have made to win the award. Though of course, I'll be happier if the production is 1) enjoyable and even happier if 2) well, you know. But 1 is more important, because without it, i won't watch it enough to check whether you've actually gotten 2.

Quote:
Did I? You just blatantly said 'they aren't earth bullets, so we don't have to take their speed as representative of real bullets'
Again you twist my thing to almost the opposite so let's try this again: "They aren't Terran bullets. Thus, their Link to Reality / Primary Reference Frame is the speed that we see them at. Anything else (such as assuming they are as fast as Terran bullets no matter what the show shows their speed as) will be to impose our own stereotypes of bullets onto the show, which is a form of non-SoD." Does that help?

Quote:
Hayate was both born in a Mid era, and was granted her spell list by a book that had just finished absorbing a lot of Mid mages, and had been for the past decades. I'm not surprised she has a Mid spell list, but notice how none of the other Belkan mages do they same.
Yet they still have long-range means of fire.

Quote:
Zafira: Primarily close combat, with one ranged attack.
The animator's intent is that Zafira is a dog. Dogs aren't men. In fact, the animator's intent is that he doesn't exist

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Zest: Purely close combat.
He's Old-Belka? That'll be strange, considering that ancient Belkan is supposed to be nearly extinct, and Zest grew up and died (twice) in the post-Belkan Empire TSAB environment.

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Vivio: Despite copying a large amount of spells from her Mid mothers,
One of which, ironically is a close-range specialist.

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goes for close range. And this is important, because Vivio was both A: relying on her memories as the Saint King and B: plugged into the Cradle, which at one point took over her body and downloaded defense programs. Combat style? Close range.
OK, another point for that, though I must say in that (confined) tactical environment, close range isn't a bad choice (assuming both are open to you)

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Rein and Agito, I won't argue. They're small unison devices, so putting them in close combat is ridiculous. They're mostly supporting their Lords in unison anyway.
Now, here's the question. Why make them so small? If close combat is the heart of Belka, and these two are Belkans are presumably have to fight from time to time. (Yeah, I have read the official explanation about compatibility, but there are pros and cons both ways, and one would still think if close combat is so emphasized they'll have been uh, bigger).

Quote:
And note that I never denied them not having ranged attacks, I said that they preferred close combat. Why would Ancient Belka using knights prefer close combat if that is 'all that Mid remembers?' Obviously melee was central to Belkan magic, which is not surprising considering the power behind it. If you can throw a blow that sliced through steel drones like a knife through butter, imagine what you can do to an infantrymen. I don't care how much kevlar you're wearing, that blow is going to tear you in two.
But it was you that was wondering how the heck Belka even survives in the ranged environment. And the answer to me is simple. If close-combat is a (cultural?) preference for Belkans, they nevertheless retain a huge number of far-options, which they are shown to use when necessary. They just use the far options (or mass weaponry itself for the long-range option) a whole lot in the old times, just to stay alive, regardless of their preference. I bet now is almost like heaven to them, with the near extinction of ranged weaponry as we know it, so they won't get sliced into little pieces before they can close to slice the infantryman into two

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Barriers surrounding the Barrier Jacket, no. That has been proven by the manga.
Good. By extension, barriers don't have to be a circle.

Quote:
Now I would ask you to find some backup for your theories. I presented mine, the manga and DVD booklets, as well as several quotes from the anime talking about Barrier Jacket strength, and presented several scenes supporting them, while at the same time countering your ranged-crash-barriers (as they certainly failed to show up in 11 and 16) but where is your canon backup for these barriers?
I can equally use manga and DVD quotes concerning the existence of barriers and fields. They are equally unquantified, but at least they are not as restricted by the needs of physics, as well as being shafted by moderate speed examples.

Quote:
So far I've heard nothing beyond 'it's more in line with physics.'
In addition, your theory is contradicted by upper-limit scenes, which you nicely present for my use. I know you are trying to get me to ignore the inconvenient part, but the scene comes as a package.

Quote:
Mostly because of the element of Erio and Subaru cracking concrete support pillars and walls respectively. Last I checked, throwing soft objects at low speeds against concrete objects isn't exactly enough to dent them, much less cause major cracks. Yet, you throw away this observation, something you repeatedly keep telling us not to do.
Well, if I throw away the "low speed" part, then I'll be throwing out an observation too, wouldn't I. The only part that's not observed, but only assumed, is the strength of the wall. Guess where the cuts are going to come from.

Quote:
Not necessarily, in fact, not at all. While I agree that the scene could have used a little speedup in that regard, animating it to be true speed would mean it happens too fast, which would make the audience go 'what just happened?' which is not a good thing. If an audience needs to watch a scene two or three times before they understand whats going on, you've made a bad scene. As for why they didn't let him fly 150 meters, that's because the heroes needed to stay together, throwing two of them 150 meters away doesn't do this.
But then you can show Erio running back, and thus prove Erio's speed. Isn't THAT good?

Quote:
So basically, anything that doesn't happen on earth or with earth technology is subject to change in its very basics?
Yeah. And don't look at me like that. It is common practice to increase technical characteristics of items and people in fantasy / sci-fi worlds based on observation. For example, if you saw a character running at 120km/h, most will cancel their assumptions of human abilities and write in a set of strengths that will support this move. You might evaluate this increase scientifically or intuitively, but I don't anybody will disagree with this part.

I suppose if we saw a character flying into Midchildran concrete at 400m/s and it didn't make a dent, you would NOT say that he was actually flying slower than that, but that Midchildran concrete is just that good. You already do that with BJs.

However, if one goes that route, then in principle, you should be at least ready to decrease the technical characteristics of items based on observation.

The problem is that people have a tendency to be contemptuous of the familiar, and thus anything "fantasy" or "sci-fi" is assumed to be superior. One should be heathily wary of this human tendency. Storywriters tend to exploit this tendency to some extent, but they should still be careful not to produce contradictory evidence - at some point people will actually start investigating.

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It's hardly Physics On for me, this is still me looking at it from an animators point of view, which dictates "Unless specifically stated to be otherwise, all material shall behave as normal"
And how do you state it? By showing it - you can't always count on being able to write a technical explanation, and in any case you will still need the scene to quantify and substantiate the boasts you wrote on the page! For example, you want to contend they SHOWED the barrier jacket to have impressive defence, so I should grant it that. Without getting into the physics or whether the show actually showed this, then by corollary it goes in the other direction as well.

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StrikerS never stated it made its buildings out of a softer material, thus we assume them to be normal, and we go for the 'whoa, Erio just got chucked into a concrete pillar! Is he allright?' effect of the scene.
If you actually got serious about "Whether he's all right", I must laugh. I mean, not counting physics, it is Ep11 out of a 26-episode series. It is very unlikely he'll actually get hurt in that phase

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Signum's sword doesn't always move fast when she's slicing through steel drones either.
Steel? Why not aluminum (you know, that material that's used to make foil...)? Also, see above.

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'Getting through' and 'getting others through' are two different things. With Erio, she could be brutal in claiming the Relic, penetrating the Jacket with both IS and A-rank strength, or even just the A-rank strength alone. Imagine what would have happened if she was that brutal with Lutecia.
Lutecia will sink into the ground, if she can. Now you are just granting abilities that aren't there, and have no reason to be there.

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Observations work both ways. We both observed Erio cracking a concrete pillar at low speed. You alter the composition of building material, I say measuring framerates for speed is inacurate. We are both making observations, and both discarding the issues at hand that contradict our ideas.
Wrong. You threw away the observed velocity. I threw away an assumption.

Quote:
Of course it does, this is one of the advantages animation has over live action. Such a shot in live action would be very difficult to achieve, and they'd most likely would have to pull a matrix and bullet-time it (coincidentally, Matrix bullet time was inspired by anime). Anime doesn't have those limitations, and such a scene can be worked to show both the beam, the shock, and even the 'Uso!'

The fact that Vita didn't move out of the way combined with the fact that the DVD booklet labeled it as a high-speed attack, despite it being measured as one of the slowest attacks, blatantly shows that the measurements of the scene are not accurate.
[grant=On]OK, for the sake of argument, it isn't. So tell me, what happened in that scene. Start with how many seconds you thought the beam actually took to traverse the distance.[/grant]

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Considering Barrier Jackets are a valid and confirmed method of defense, I don't think I'll change it for something nameless and unconfirmed, no.
Considering that barriers, shields arnd fields are confirmed methods of defense, I see no reason they can't be there either. And something nameless and unconfirmed beats the sh*t out of something that disqualifies.

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And yet wounds were prevented before by the Jackets.
Which ones. Remember the concrete stuff is still being debated, so you are left with soft looking tails, whips, hands and airblast, all looking rather ordinary, penetrating.

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And yet, Fate shifted to Sonic Form during her final battle, despite measures showing her going slower.

Which dialogue? The voice-lock?
No, the claims.

Quote:
Fate shifted into a weaker armor in order to fight an opponent, the only advantage she got in that armor was speed. If that speed was achievable in her higher armor Barrier Jacket, why would she discard it? The scene would make no sense. The only answer is that she is going for speed.

Let's appeal to author intent for a moment.

Intent A: We see Fate stripping down defenses for speed, but the calculations show her to be slower then even normal flight. The scene looks ridiculous.

Intent B: We see Fate stripping down defenses for speed, and see her crush the enemy she previously had trouble with. Hell yeah! Fate in sonic form owns your Ride Impulse, Tre!

I don't think we need to debate which is the authors intent here, obviously the intent was to go 'wow!' with B.
Here's mine. The "speed" that Fate actually got was acceleration. She might have worked up a little faster to supersonic had she been in Sonic Form. Nevertheless, there wasn't nearly enough time or space to work up in that little chamber, and in any case, she has no weapons that will actually reach supersonic even if she can, so...

By the way, it was the Riot Blade that owned Tre's little armblades, not so much the Sonic Form over Ride Impulse.

Quote:
Nothing, I'll read and enjoy it just the same. In fact, ATC has written several pieces with Nanoha mages being capable of supersonic flight, and nobody has raised issues about them so far. Others write mages with much slower speeds, and we read them just the same. We just read them and enjoy each others interpretations.
In other words, the problem was solved by the dearth of h3xxbusting

By the way, by this pure relative system, it is OK if I write that my new character destroys a planet like Alderaan, as long as I say she's as powerful as Nanoha. Will you actually choke down that Nanoha can destroy a planet in my story too?
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Old 2008-12-03, 07:43   Link #1558
Nya~n
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Alright, given this thread's recent history, I might just start off another debate with this question(Q&A doesn't seem to be a good place to ask this question).

We know that the Mid-Childan home world(and affiliated worlds) run chiefly on magic to power it's day to day operations, completely replacing the primeval way of burning fuels, nuclear, wind, wave energy. Thing is, with such a huge network of worlds, where does this magic come from? We know that not all inhabitants are magi, so do they get enough magic to run the place? Do they have a mana generator(a la GN Drive, per chance?) or do they do it Matrix-style and plug in mages into a global energy network?
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Old 2008-12-03, 08:03   Link #1559
Jimmy C
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They almost certainly have some kind of artificial mana/magical-energy generation technology. Otherwise, things like the Cartridge System, the Autospheres and the Arc-en-Ciel don't make sense. The first two are so low-end, they're a waste of a mage's output to power and the third is simply well beyond any mage's ability to power.
It has to be artificial because they simply don't have enough high-powered mages to make such a network practical. The few mages they have are needed for more important tasks.
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Old 2008-12-03, 08:05   Link #1560
AdmiralTigerclaw
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I don't think it's expanded upon... so I took the liberty in my fic to make a power plant that's designed like a huge magic circle to 'harvest' the natural magical energy inherent in planetary Ley Lines.

The only real 'mana reactor' we've seen, is the one in the Cradle. And that thing looked like a giant Linker Core In a Box.
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