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Old 2008-12-09, 11:15   Link #1601
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And the fact they are going to hand out these special permits rather than just hand out one of Jimmy's autocasters says a lot about the feasibility of said autocasters.
I disagree. Without more detailed information, I'm only willing to accept that the permit is for a magical device that fires physical bullets using magic provided by a mage. I find that more likely than a permit for a non-magical weapon used by a non-mage. If you have info that states definitively that Runessa is a non-mage and/or her weapon doesn't use magic, please share it. Then I'll have to conceed.
My idea for autocasters has always been to put magic weapons into the hands of non-mages.

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That idea might have worked had the Dutch or Japanese police been unarmed. But that isn't the case.
That doesn't matter because those people are agents of the government. Used to keep the populance in line. A population that never had free access to weapons won't have much interest in them as long as their nation remains stable and prosperous. That's the case with Japan, Singapore and Malaysia. Most governments prefer stability and control over freedom. Since things haven't descended into total anarchy, they think that's fine and see no reason to copy the American model.
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Old 2008-12-09, 11:24   Link #1602
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The phobia is a conclusion based on available data.
Data which has several members of the bureau fighting with weapons that come awfully close, and Runessa may or may not actually have one. Not to mention that there is no accurate evidence of this paranoia, apart from the ban on their usage, which as I said, needs not result in a paranoia at all.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I can also argue that the continued existence of such weapons in a nominally TSAB-managed world suggests the opposite. Their usual anti-mass weapon rules can't be enforced with that population without suffering horrendous casualties, so instead in an act of realpolitik they quietly tolerate it and even hand out a few special permits.

More on topic, even if one can argue that this stuff shows the ban isn't quite as absolute as originally perceived, most of the evidence still goes one direction, which implies such permits are the exception. And the fact they are going to hand out these special permits rather than just hand out one of Jimmy's autocasters says a lot about the feasibility of said autocasters.
If you can't use magic, but you can use a gun, hand a license and let the poor Enforcer use a gun. Yes, this would discount the existence of magic powered rifles, but that does not discount their possibility, as it may also be a decision of engineering. If the TSAB allows guns with certain permits, there's no need to re-invent the wheel.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Don't feel it. IMO there is no logical way you can take the evidence they presented and come up with this conclusion. If you can predict this move, the only way you can predict it is by saying you predict the author will partially self-contradict, leading to yet another problem apologist fans have to paper and rationalize over while muttering "SoD, SoD, SoD"
No logical way? Having a group of researchers research technology and possible countermeasures to weaponry you will encounter in the field sounds pretty damn logical to me.

Even discounting operations on war-torn planets, criminals aren't going to care about laws. Non-mage criminals will get their hands on guns one way or another, and use them against mages.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Precisely, they are on a ship, which presumably can have lots of space for elaborate and powerful modulators.
I fail to see how this disproves the existence of auto-casting.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I know that in forums, grammar tends to take a slip, but this sentence is self-contradictory. Am I supposed to prioritize "recently", implying last week, or "long since" which means last month?
Nya? How did that recently get there? My mistake, I meant long since.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That idea might have worked had the Dutch or Japanese police been unarmed. But that isn't the case.
Considering the bureau mages are anything but unarmed, the theory still stands.

Police in Japan and Holland are allowed to carry weaponry, Mid mages -which are their police- are allowed to carry their devices. The authorities get the weapons the civilians aren't allowed to get. If My country and Japan can happily live with this, why can't Mid?

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I disagree. Without more detailed information, I'm only willing to accept that the permit is for a magical device that fires physical bullets using magic provided by a mage. I find that more likely than a permit for a non-magical weapon used by a non-mage. If you have info that states definitively that Runessa is a non-mage and/or her weapon doesn't use magic, please share it. Then I'll have to conceed.
However, this would be weird for two reasons. The first is the special permit part. We've never heard of such a special permit before, and Belkan magic, which relies on enhancing physical (or rather 'mass') damage is openly accepted in the TSAB. Runessa's gun should be no problem where she a mage and the gun functions as you say.

Secondly, it limits the guns functionality and effectiveness. A magic gun like Teana's has virtually no ammunition limit, while a gun with physical bullets needs to be reloaded. Also, the need for magic would limit it's effectiveness in AMF conditions, which is the only reason I can see a mage getting a gun like that.
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Old 2008-12-09, 11:48   Link #1603
Wild Goose
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*shrugs* The reason the OFM use standard guns are because Erusia is a gun-happy planet (which has a special dispension to keep firearms for the local LEs, due to the fact that Erusia's population is several billion and there aren't that many mages on the planet) as well as the fact that guns offer a relative stealth advantage over magic: an M82 doesn't have the same magical emission signature as spellcasting does, for instance. Furthermore, on worlds that use guns, it's easier to hide your footprint by using guns, which aren't too far out of the ordinary there. Also, you can see beams, but you can't see bullets.

Metafictionally? I'd just gotten off a major Halo and CoD4 marathon, with liberal helpings of The Unit and NCIS.
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Old 2008-12-09, 11:53   Link #1604
Keroko
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Come to think of it, Runessa was born on a gun-happy planet as well.

The name of that world?

Orusia.

Coincidence?
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Old 2008-12-09, 12:33   Link #1605
Wild Goose
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Either that or an attempt at making a ref: Erusia is named after the Ace Combat nation of the same name and god knows that there's more than a few Ace Combat shout-outs in Nanoha...

Let's not forget the Germanic Belka; in the world of Ace Combat, Belka = Germany. And Nanoha's Belka has plenty of German touches. Remember Hayate's Hresvelgr, the multinuke attack? Ace Combat Zero's Belkans had Hresvelger, a hugeass bomber with lots of nukes.
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Old 2008-12-09, 12:48   Link #1606
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
However, this would be weird for two reasons. The first is the special permit part.
Pardon me for desperately wanting to believe the creators of this series have some respect for what they've done so far.

Quote:
Secondly, it limits the guns functionality and effectiveness.
It depends on what you want to do with the gun. A magic powered gun has its advantages. First is variable power output, it can fire its bullets harder than normal if neccessary. A regular gun can't do that. Second, a physical projectile is more efficient at causing physical damage than than a magic bolt. A mage who's more used to conventional weapons might prefer something like this.

What scares me most is how I think the creators came up with the Ban on mass weapons.

Spoiler for Imaginary StrikerS Creative Staff Meeting:


I hope they put more thought into the issue than that. Yet, to casually throw it away in just two lines in SSX...
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Old 2008-12-09, 13:17   Link #1607
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Either that or an attempt at making a ref: Erusia is named after the Ace Combat nation of the same name and god knows that there's more than a few Ace Combat shout-outs in Nanoha...

Let's not forget the Germanic Belka; in the world of Ace Combat, Belka = Germany. And Nanoha's Belka has plenty of German touches. Remember Hayate's Hresvelgr, the multinuke attack? Ace Combat Zero's Belkans had Hresvelger, a hugeass bomber with lots of nukes.
Nevermind Hraesvelgr, what about the fact that the Belkan culture speaks German? <_<

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Pardon me for desperately wanting to believe the creators of this series have some respect for what they've done so far.
Which hasn't changed. We just exaggerated the ban too much. Rather then 'Mid doesn't want to touch mass weaponry ever', which is what we have been thinking, it's 'mass weaponry is illegal, and special permits are required in the rare cases non-mage personnel needs to be armed'

Runessa is, after all, an Enforcer. Which is a job described as dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It depends on what you want to do with the gun. A magic powered gun has its advantages. First is variable power output, it can fire its bullets harder than normal if neccessary. A regular gun can't do that. Second, a physical projectile is more efficient at causing physical damage than than a magic bolt. A mage who's more used to conventional weapons might prefer something like this.
Considering the damage we've seen magic bolts do, I would beg to differ them being less effective then physical projectiles. I also don't understand how a mage who's more used to physical weaponry would prefer a gun that while still being loaded with bullets, doesn't function the way his or her old gun worked. He suddenly needs to use magic to shoot a bullet? That can't work the same way as his normal gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
What scares me most is how I think the creators came up with the Ban on mass weapons.

Spoiler for Imaginary StrikerS Creative Staff Meeting:


I hope they put more thought into the issue than that. Yet, to casually throw it away in just two lines in SSX...
Now you're over thinking things. Like I said, we just went doomsday and decided the ban equaled paranoia and that Mid wouldn't want to touch a gun. Ever. All SSX did was prove we were wrong in our assumption.
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Old 2008-12-09, 13:43   Link #1608
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
it's 'mass weaponry is illegal, and special permits are required in the rare cases non-mage personnel needs to be armed'
That contradicts what's been shown somewhat.
The problem is the AMF drones are the perfect targets for mass weapons. Yet the cast doesn't even contemplate getting mass weapons to use against them. Yes, given that Regius was involved in the conspiracy, they'd be unlikely to get the permits, but not a word about it at all? Not one "Why don't we use guns instead?" or "Too bad we couldn't get those mass weapons permits"?
Instead, the whole idea was dismissed with just "mass weapons are banned" back in the A's to S manga.
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Old 2008-12-09, 13:52   Link #1609
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
That contradicts what's been shown somewhat.
The problem is the AMF drones are the perfect targets for mass weapons. Yet the cast doesn't even contemplate getting mass weapons to use against them. Yes, given that Regius was involved in the conspiracy, they'd be unlikely to get the permits, but not a word about it at all? Not one "Why don't we use guns instead?" or "Too bad we couldn't get those mass weapons permits"?
Instead, the whole idea was dismissed with just "mass weapons are banned" back in the A's to S manga.
Fighting Gadget Drones with mass-based weaponry would mean massively arming bureau forces with heavy weaponry, as a small handgun won't do much damage against them (if it does at all). This goes far beyond equipping the rare exception with a handgun. To effectively fight the seemingly endless flow of Gadget Drones with mass-based weaponry would mean to effectively lift the ban, that probably is why it wasn't considered an option.
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Old 2008-12-09, 14:43   Link #1610
Jimmy C
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They wouldn't need to arm the whole Bureau, just themselves.
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Old 2008-12-09, 14:49   Link #1611
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M2 Browning mounted on a Humvee would do the job just fine. Drones are about man-sized and not exactly heavily armored. Fifty Cal. would mulch them.

^_^V

Spoiler for DUNDUNDUNDUN!:


And it wouldn't take much either, as drones seem to have a bit of a cause>Effect trigger of blowing to smitherines from even the slightest direct hit punching through. And you know, when you can rip a car to shreds... a drone stands not a chance.

Heheh...

A few dozen M2s aren't all that hard to contain when you've got mages who can do airstrikes.
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Old 2008-12-09, 15:47   Link #1612
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
They wouldn't need to arm the whole Bureau, just themselves.
Wait, we are talking about the scene in the manga, right? Because in that part, Fate was discussing future plans and strategies against AMF equipped opponents, based on longer term. Not the small and short unit that was RF6.

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M2 Browning mounted on a Humvee would do the job just fine. Drones are about man-sized and not exactly heavily armored. Fifty Cal. would mulch them.

^_^V

Spoiler for DUNDUNDUNDUN!:


And it wouldn't take much either, as drones seem to have a bit of a cause>Effect trigger of blowing to smitherines from even the slightest direct hit punching through. And you know, when you can rip a car to shreds... a drone stands not a chance.

Heheh...

A few dozen M2s aren't all that hard to contain when you've got mages who can do airstrikes.
I have no doubt that will tear through drones, but I also have a slight suspicion that an M2 would fall under 'heavy weaponry'

And the 'gadgets are really explosive' argument doesn't really run considering everything in anime (heck, movies too) that's hit with anything remotely resembling a pojectile will explode.
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Old 2008-12-09, 16:56   Link #1613
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post

And the 'gadgets are really explosive' argument doesn't really run considering everything in anime (heck, movies too) that's hit with anything remotely resembling a pojectile will explode.
If you were feeling sufficiently snarky, you could even semi-justify that by stating that Nanohaverse "magitech" has a habit of doing exactly that when sufficiently catastrophic physical damage is inflicted on its systems, making the "flow" of magic go wild, and...do what magic running wild tends to do.
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Old 2008-12-09, 17:15   Link #1614
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Old 2008-12-09, 17:24   Link #1615
Arkeus
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Bah..

I myself believe a gun wouldn't have done jack to the Gadget. That they have AMF doesn't mean that they don't have basic strength and hardness enhancement after all.
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Old 2008-12-09, 17:28   Link #1616
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Armor piercing bullets, or depleted uranium ammunition, problem solved.
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Old 2008-12-09, 17:40   Link #1617
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Bah..

I myself believe a gun wouldn't have done jack to the Gadget. That they have AMF doesn't mean that they don't have basic strength and hardness enhancement after all.
They get killed by falling concrete, fast moving rocks... shockwaves from small fireballs fry them... Subaru can tackle one to the ground with a backflip...

Yeah. They don't have 'strength' and 'hardness' worth the clothes on my back. They're cheap O drones. Mass produced, mass use, spare parts with a fancy name on the end.

A decent heavy machine gun is going to completely trash them.
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Old 2008-12-09, 17:44   Link #1618
Arkeus
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Not sure. The basic Gadget have armors, that's sure. But that armor is almost certainly at least decently enhanced by magic.

I doubt bullets could easily take them out.

Of course, that's pure theory on my part ^^
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Old 2008-12-09, 17:46   Link #1619
Arkeus
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
They get killed by falling concrete, fast moving rocks... shockwaves from small fireballs fry them... Subaru can tackle one to the ground with a backflip...

Yeah. They don't have 'strength' and 'hardness' worth the clothes on my back. They're cheap O drones. Mass produced, mass use, spare parts with a fancy name on the end.

A decent heavy machine gun is going to completely trash them.
Subaru is *strong*, and those were holos i think.

"Small fireballs" doesn't talk about their power much.

"Fast moving rocks", well those were pretty big.

don't remember the concrete bit.
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Old 2008-12-09, 17:52   Link #1620
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Erio took a bridge down on two of them in one of the early episodes, I believe.
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