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Old 2008-12-09, 18:15   Link #1621
Keroko
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Which also says volumes about the strength of their armor. If I-can-cut-concrete-with-ease Erio has trouble getting through their armor, even when boosted by Caro, then they're obviously not that crunchy.
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Old 2008-12-09, 18:25   Link #1622
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Old 2008-12-09, 18:33   Link #1623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Subaru is *strong*, and those were holos i think.
Strong, with a normal punching speed. A bullet is light, but rips through concrete too.

Quote:
"Small fireballs" doesn't talk about their power much.
Mini fried tossing little flame burst fireballs that make smoke clouds and small fires.


Quote:
"Fast moving rocks", well those were pretty big.
No bigger than my fist, and rocks not very dense.

Quote:
don't remember the concrete bit.
Already spoken about...

Anyway...

Review: Fifty Cal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj3OQ...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckklgMDZKJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJU8...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Tok...d=event_517309

And Very Important, because this displays the armor penetration of fifty caliber bullets as fired from a barret M-82 sniper rifle... the same size as the M2. (The sound gets out of synch though):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9lMViBr6d8

Fifty cal was made to punch through ARMOR... If a couple fast moving rocks, which have low density and nowhere near the velocity of an actual bullet can do it... A bullet made for the task can do it. A bullet that slices through the engine blocks of cars like a hot knife through butter, goes through manhole covers like they aren't there, smashes concrete blocks and punches right through safes... are most certainly going to do it.


EDIT:

By the way guys. Concrete is not very strong to impact or cutting. In fact, concrete is extremely brittle and shatters easily.
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Old 2008-12-09, 20:01   Link #1624
Kikaifan
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Fifty cal isn't even close to being able to penetrate reinforced concrete of the thickness used in actual buildings with a single round. Erio's abilities as demonstrated by the whole walkway-cutting scene are far superior in that respect. Unless you want to go back to 'well obviously Midchilda builds everything out of Styrofoam'.
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Old 2008-12-09, 20:42   Link #1625
al103
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Speaking about use of mass-based weaponry on drones... Do you forget that "little" thing that higher ups (aka General Idiot + Brains) forbit even AMF traing on basis "situation is exaggerated" - no way they would allow that.
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Old 2008-12-09, 20:45   Link #1626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Fifty cal isn't even close to being able to penetrate reinforced concrete of the thickness used in actual buildings with a single round. Erio's abilities as demonstrated by the whole walkway-cutting scene are far superior in that respect. Unless you want to go back to 'well obviously Midchilda builds everything out of Styrofoam'.
Do you even know what reinforced concrete is? Here's a hint.

The concrete is not suddenly any harder than it was before, it's that the reinforcement bar (REBAR) rods in it help it maintain strength without breaking under tension. As far as that goes, all Erio has to do to compromise that strength outside of cutting the concrete, is to cut the rebar rods buried in the material. Which is nothing like rolled homogenious metal armor. Without the rebar to relieve the tension effects, that concrete's just as brittle as any other concrete.

In short, (because I have to go to work now.)

It's not that hard.
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Old 2008-12-10, 00:07   Link #1627
Wild Goose
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*shrugs* There's always RPGs and shaped charges and IEDs too...
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Old 2008-12-10, 00:20   Link #1628
Kikaifan
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Rebar doesn't affect the hardness of the concrete but as you pointed out concrete tends to shatter and rebar helps prevent that, so more rounds are needed to dig through. Also, it makes sense to refer to reinforced concrete when speaking of large structures.

I suppose you're technically correct behind your misplaced condescension though, whether it's reinforced probably makes no difference as to whether one bullet can go through, it just changes the number you need if you decide to use a lot. Many many sarcastic apologies.

But all you really pointed out is that the round won't penetrate unreinforced concrete either. Whoops.

Anyway, let's reiterate the main point: it would take many hundreds of .50 rounds to just make a hole in that bridge, whereas Erio cut it to pieces in a couple of seconds, so Keroko's example in favor of strong drone armor should stand.

Of course, magic can be used as an excuse in your direction too- for example, claiming that Erio only had trouble with the drones because their AMF reduced his normally-impressive attack power to the point where weak, .50-penetrable armor was able to stop him. But you guys seem understandably loathe to use anything that implies 'everything magical is stronger'.
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Old 2008-12-10, 00:54   Link #1629
arkhangelsk
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Lots of fun stuff today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I disagree. Without more detailed information, I'm only willing to accept that the permit is for a magical device that fires physical bullets using magic provided by a mage.
I won't mind this. Nevertheless, at the very least this weapon clearly is closer to the "mass weapon" part of the bracket than the TSAB is normally comfortable with, thus requiring the permit.

Quote:
I find that more likely than a permit for a non-magical weapon used by a non-mage. If you have info that states definitively that Runessa is a non-mage and/or her weapon doesn't use magic, please share it. Then I'll have to conceed.
My idea for autocasters has always been to put magic weapons into the hands of non-mages.
If Runessa is a mage (of any significant strength), the decision not to use a device becomes very difficult to justify. Of course, there's the one that she uses the gun because it works better than magic despite its presumed relative lack of flexibility, but then unless she's very weak that says something about the advantage of mass weapons, and Keroko won't like that conclusion very much at all.

Quote:
That doesn't matter because those people are agents of the government. Used to keep the populance in line. A population that never had free access to weapons won't have much interest in them as long as their nation remains stable and prosperous. That's the case with Japan, Singapore and Malaysia. Most governments prefer stability and control over freedom. Since things haven't descended into total anarchy, they think that's fine and see no reason to copy the American model.
The point is that even people that are "agents of the government" don't get an exempt from the ban of mass weapons, even in times of clear need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Data which has several members of the bureau fighting with weapons that come awfully close,
The fact they do that and STILL aren't willing to cross (at least until Runessa) was generally considered a point in favor.

Quote:
If you can't use magic, but you can use a gun, hand a license and let the poor Enforcer use a gun. Yes, this would discount the existence of magic powered rifles, but that does not discount their possibility, as it may also be a decision of engineering. If the TSAB allows guns with certain permits, there's no need to re-invent the wheel.
It is axiomatic to say that nothing can really be disproven, however, it IS a strong blow against. Regardless of Runessa being an exception, the general direction of the bureau is IMO still extremely clear on this point. The TSAB can't have a strong anti-mass policy and then just whip out permits for mass handguns when it can just throw out autocasters. Unless, of course, the gun is massively more tactically efficient, which says something either about autocasters or about magic in general (watches Keroko growl).

Quote:
No logical way? Having a group of researchers research technology and possible countermeasures to weaponry you will encounter in the field sounds pretty damn logical to me.
It was really, considering the density of the field, a squirm out that might barely pass muster in the OC thread. Heck, we are explicitly told that the Bureau does witchhunts on mass weapons in SS Ep14. It isn't anyone's fault they decide to do a reversal.

Face it, regardless of your views on Paranoia Theory, the reason you didn't support this idea until right about now is because the evidence is going the other way. This will be even more true of a person like you, who holds intent and dialogue in such relative esteem.

Quote:
Even discounting operations on war-torn planets, criminals aren't going to care about laws. Non-mage criminals will get their hands on guns one way or another, and use them against mages.
And the fact that even criminals apparently don't do that is yet another point in favor of the good old brainwashing theory.

Quote:
I fail to see how this disproves the existence of auto-casting.
I never tried to disprove the existence of auto-casting. That clearly would be false. However, I was trying to show that there is no evidence for, and some against, the idea of weapons-grade autocasters in the man-sized range.

Quote:
Considering the bureau mages are anything but unarmed, the theory still stands.

Police in Japan and Holland are allowed to carry weaponry, Mid mages -which are their police- are allowed to carry their devices. The authorities get the weapons the civilians aren't allowed to get. If My country and Japan can happily live with this, why can't Mid?
The difference are twofold:
1) In Mid, both "police" and civvies are allowed to carry devices.
2) With one possible known exception so far, netiher police, civvies or apparently even criminals (as you said, they don't care about law) can get a mass weapon, nor will they seriously think of getting one even when it is useful.

Quote:
However, this would be weird for two reasons. The first is the special permit part. We've never heard of such a special permit before, and Belkan magic, which relies on enhancing physical (or rather 'mass') damage is openly accepted in the TSAB. Runessa's gun should be no problem where she a mage and the gun functions as you say.
I'll agree. Even if it was magical in some way, it clearly swipes closer to "mass" than the Bureau is comfortable with.

Quote:
Secondly, it limits the guns functionality and effectiveness. A magic gun like Teana's has virtually no ammunition limit, while a gun with physical bullets needs to be reloaded. Also, the need for magic would limit it's effectiveness in AMF conditions, which is the only reason I can see a mage getting a gun like that.
Not to mention from what we've seen of magic shots so far, it'll almost certainly mean a low velocity bullet, which shafts one of the big advantages of using mass weapons in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
ZNow you're over thinking things. Like I said, we just went doomsday and decided the ban equaled paranoia and that Mid wouldn't want to touch a gun. Ever. All SSX did was prove we were wrong in our assumption.
Well, until Runessa came along, they've been feeding us every piece of evidence for this paranoia. I agree with your SoD conclusion, that we have to downgrade from "absolute paranoia" to just "very very serious paranoia", but this is IMO, truly a case where we groan at the creators and mutter "SoD, SoD, SoD!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Fighting Gadget Drones with mass-based weaponry would mean massively arming bureau forces with heavy weaponry, as a small handgun won't do much damage against them (if it does at all). This goes far beyond equipping the rare exception with a handgun. To effectively fight the seemingly endless flow of Gadget Drones with mass-based weaponry would mean to effectively lift the ban, that probably is why it wasn't considered an option.
So? Given that mass weapons is likely the best single counter for drones - and if you don't like bullet guns you can try heat bolts like what the Gadgets themselves use. It doesn't happen. It isn't even considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which also says volumes about the strength of their armor. If I-can-cut-concrete-with-ease Erio has trouble getting through their armor, even when boosted by Caro, then they're obviously not that crunchy.
A Type III might be something of a challenge to destroy, but a Type I can clearly be defeated by relatively low velocity punches and all that.

IIRC, the Type III has two toughened arms, and using them it can defend reasonably well against magi-blades. However, such dedicated defense are unlikely to be effective against bullets that are fired into all areas of the body faster than the Type III can move its arms to block.

Finally, it IS Middie concrete. We've had many chances, thanks to your diligence to observe it in action
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Old 2008-12-10, 01:07   Link #1630
krisslanza
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I doubt Drone armor really is as flimsy as you think it might be.

Saying it can be killed by a falling bridge is a pretty big moot point - barring anything special (like a mage's barrier) pretty much nothing will survive having an entire bridge dropped on top of it.

Nanoha might've destroyed some using rocks but she's also Nanoha, who isn't to say she hurled the rocks at their terminal speed at the get-go? Even a small rock moving at its maximum speed would probably pack a punch. Not to mention we don't know how much the rocks weigh - what if the minerals inside them weigh a lot in comparison to the size?

Subaru can tackle one but then again she's also extremely powerful to begin with. The Type III's also could stop one of Signum's slashes which has to speak volumes on defensive power. After all Signum in A's was able to hit Fate in a few seconds with enough force to hurl her through a building.

I'm sure I might've missed a point or two somewhere.
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Old 2008-12-10, 01:10   Link #1631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
But all you really pointed out is that the round won't penetrate unreinforced concrete either. Whoops.
I really don't see how it points out that the round WON'T penetrate unreinforced concrete when I just posted a video showing a single round go through four cinderblocks of concrete like it was nothing... (With enough energy left over to go flying out the top and to who knows where.)

The rest of the argument you pretty much argued both sides to and saved us hours of trouble.


As far as drones are going to go...

Most of the drones encountered are the one meter tall Type I ovoids... cannon fodder in drone form. They're small, light, and from the looks of things like wreckage and combat footage, not armored worth a rats... well. You know.

Type IIs, the second most numerous, were the Jet Drones, flying around at high altitude... they also seemed more or less fragile as they took 'bullet damage' from Nanoha and Fate's basic sphere attacks before coming apart. But really there's no clear evidence there to work with unlike the ease we've seen the Type Is get trashed. But given their more or less equally absurd numbers, not very well armored. (Have to be light for manueverability, so armor is out.)

Type IIIs, the two/three meter tall sphere drones like the one that gave Erio all his trouble on the train, WOULD be big enough to have semi-decent armor. It has a larger power supply, produces a larger AMF, and is extremely rare compared to the other drones. In fact, it was Erio that first encountered that 'new' drone type on the train.

Type IVs aren't a concern, as the only place those showed up in the end was on the CRADLE.


In terms of combat measures. An M2 browning would be more than sufficient to deal with the likes of the type I and II drone units. The rapid fire qualities of the HMG would simply be mulching to the Is, and the IIs wouldn't be smart enough to avoid being shot down.

The type III drones would present a more difficult target, if by sheer size alone, depending on how much of its shell is actually armor, and how much of its insides are important to functionality. It would soak some damage just like the cars before taking damage to critical points, but that's nothing tossing in an M-79 grenade launcher and 40mm High Explosive Incindiary rounds couldn't fix in a jiff. And as rare as the T-IIIs were compared to everything else, they wouldn't present a significant problem.

One man driving the humvee, one man manning the Browning, one man doing the reloading and holding onto the M-79. Drones become merely an annoyance.

Now you just watch out for cyborgs.
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Old 2008-12-10, 01:25   Link #1632
krisslanza
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But all you can do is assume. We don't know what the Drones are made of, so you don't know if it's some naturally bullet-proofed metal or perhaps a super light, yet extremely durable one (this mostly applies the flying drones).

Or again for flying drones with magic as a power source I seriously doubt weight really has much of anything to do with it.
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Old 2008-12-10, 02:34   Link #1633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
But all you can do is assume. We don't know what the Drones are made of, so you don't know if it's some naturally bullet-proofed metal or perhaps a super light, yet extremely durable one (this mostly applies the flying drones).

Or again for flying drones with magic as a power source I seriously doubt weight really has much of anything to do with it.
I can do more than assume. I can make an educated guess, which is a dangerously effective method of doing things. (It's paid off for me plenty of times.)

Here's how:

Subaru air tackled one from a dead stop and brought it to the ground.

That takedown had nothing to do with her cyborg strength, only body weight, because she had no point in which to leverage herself to utilize that strength when she was in mid-air. That purely physical move showed us the drone was comparatively equal to, or lighter than herself with the ease in which she managed to tackle it, meaning the drone has very little 'antigrav' thrust ability (It couldn't lift her off or lift off with her on it.), and that it cannot be carrying a very high mass of any realistic existing armor material.

As for not knowing what the drones are made of. Standard rules apply. If your theorized super material isn't mentioned, it doesn't exist.

And as far as 'bullet proofed' metal goes... there are some metals that could do it... They are called... tungsten carbide, and depleted uranium. The problem however, is they both weigh a helluva lot and are both high end materials. T-Carbide is a high density composite metal made with semi-rare tungsten, and depleted uranium is made from Uranium ore, which is considered a rare and limited resource as well. Both of which would be resource costly and prohibitive to armoring throw-away drones with in layers thick enough to be effective in the numbers we see them.


Just face it. They're DRONES. Even Jail considered them nothing more than 'toys' with which to distract the mages. They're cheap, easy to manufacture en-mass, and not a significant investiment of his limited resources. It would be completely illogical to make these cheap individually ineffective units out to be some kind of super capable fighting system that only mages can stop when we see they're quite effectively put down by rookies. Considering that they were tailored for fighting (distracting) mages, defense against physical material attack was logically, not a high priority.

If they were, a more logical method of using them would be to take these semi-capable drones, and make some kind of type V drone that would be tough enough to force the Aces to expend vast amounts of power on one, and make a hundred or so of THOSE, instead of a hundred thousand semi-tough ones that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag in a termite colony.
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Old 2008-12-10, 04:40   Link #1634
Arkeus
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uh...Right.

first off, the rocks weren't "fist sized".

http://www.onemanga.com/Magical_Girl...StrikerS/1/21/

More like *at least* half a meter big.

Second, drones are powered by jewel seeds (though maybe of lesser quality). iirc, jewel seeds can do some pretty nice powing of objects (hundreds of meters wide tree in a short time etc).

As i said, Subaru was fighting against an holo, and you claim about physics with this movement doesn't take into account internal magic at all.

Drones aren't "easily put down by rookies". Erio has been shown to have high-cutting power and high-strength but still seem to be struggling breaking one. As does Subaru.

http://www.onemanga.com/Magical_Girl...StrikerS/4/18/

This is an example of subaru strength when she had barely any training. Honestly, by the *beginning* of strikerS she should probably be able to toss tanks around.

Nanoha has been shown to be able to life magically a pretty heavy looking statue too during the airport incident, for exemple.

Your "fireball" exemple means nothing. We have no knoweldge of the temperature, nor of any other proprieties of the flame. Also, the drones didn't look *that* much affected the first time she did this.

Oh Well. i could easily see Earth tanks being nothing more than scrap for the drones, but i am aware that i take "high-end nanohaverse".

Still, it is annoying when you consciously give false info.
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Old 2008-12-10, 05:13   Link #1635
Sheba
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Perhaps you should think from a plot point of view. Drones are stormtroopers, cheap red shirts, whose toughness and actual fighting efficiency changes according to the needs of the plot.

However, if I had to think from a logical "trying to make sense out of this shit" point of view, and this is my usual approach (in worldbuilding), Jail made the drones not as tough. They are distractions and nuisances, just like Zerglings.
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Old 2008-12-10, 05:46   Link #1636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Second, drones are powered by jewel seeds (though maybe of lesser quality). iirc, jewel seeds can do some pretty nice powing of objects (hundreds of meters wide tree in a short time etc).
If they are really at that level of power, they won't need to use AMF - they can be formidable opponents just attacking. Obviously, this is so not happening.

Quote:
As i said, Subaru was fighting against an holo,
If you use the holo excuse, I can shaft Erio's cutting of the bridge by saying it is but a hologram. Can we agree that if we assume any useful information can be extracted from that exercise (not to mention for the most realistic training), we have to assume that the physical properties simulated by the holo are reasonably accurate?

Quote:
and you claim about physics with this movement doesn't take into account internal magic at all.
In other words, you know what the scene showed, so you appeal to the unknown.

Quote:
This is an example of subaru strength when she had barely any training. Honestly, by the *beginning* of strikerS she should probably be able to toss tanks around.
This unjustified extrapolation says much about your lack of scientific mindset.

Quote:
Nanoha has been shown to be able to life magically a pretty heavy looking statue too during the airport incident, for exemple.
How does Subaru turn into Nanoha. Anyway, IIRC, Nanoha stopped the statue from falling, rather than actually lifting it. I know to the layman the two are almost the same, but scientifically it is not.

Quote:
Your "fireball" exemple means nothing. We have no knoweldge of the temperature, nor of any other proprieties of the flame. Also, the drones didn't look *that* much affected the first time she did this.
They were definitely disabled and sparking after a very short stay in said fire. The temperature of the flame can be estimated by looking at its emitted wavelengths. Since it is orange rather than blue or something, one can deduce the temperature as relatively low.

Quote:
Still, it is annoying when you consciously give false info.
It is a horrible practice to turn a perceived mistake into an accusation of deliberate deception.
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Old 2008-12-10, 06:20   Link #1637
Keroko
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Not exactly a lot of time for extended replies, it's quite busy at work, so I'll be responding in short bursts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
As for not knowing what the drones are made of. Standard rules apply. If your theorized super material isn't mentioned, it doesn't exist.
First off, I am fully behind ATC on this part. Unless the material is specifically mentioned to be different, then we asume it is natural occuring material. The drones seem to be made of steel, so they are made out of steel. No reason to make things needlesly complicated with assumptions that have not a shred of proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Most of the drones encountered are the one meter tall Type I ovoids... cannon fodder in drone form. They're small, light, and from the looks of things like wreckage and combat footage, not armored worth a rats... well. You know.
I'm not going to argue the Type-I isn't the squishiesd type of Drone there is, and I definetely agree that an M2 would tear them to shreds. Their main defense seems to be their AMF, which is useless against a hail of bullets. Their other defense seems to be their high manouverabillity (even if they don't use it that much) so they could technically spread out and swarm the M2 guys, as they are always deployed in bulk.

However, they are not completely helples. Concidering the level of power shown to take them down on several occasions, it's very likely to assume that handguns, which Runessa needs a special permit for, are less effective, if not completely useless against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Type IIs, the second most numerous, were the Jet Drones, flying around at high altitude... they also seemed more or less fragile as they took 'bullet damage' from Nanoha and Fate's basic sphere attacks before coming apart. But really there's no clear evidence there to work with unlike the ease we've seen the Type Is get trashed. But given their more or less equally absurd numbers, not very well armored. (Have to be light for manueverability, so armor is out.)
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Type IIIs, the two/three meter tall sphere drones like the one that gave Erio all his trouble on the train, WOULD be big enough to have semi-decent armor. It has a larger power supply, produces a larger AMF, and is extremely rare compared to the other drones. In fact, it was Erio that first encountered that 'new' drone type on the train.
And a tough Barrier that, by the looks of it, can stand up to conciderable damage. That would make it a tough oponent for the M2 buggies, who have to choose between trying to bring down the Barrier or conserving. Not impossible to take down, but definetely a hell of a lot tougher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Type IVs aren't a concern, as the only place those showed up in the end was on the CRADLE.
They were also responsible for both Nanoha's injuries and the death of Quint. They were very much deployed outside the Cradle, so calling them a non-issue is not really accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
In terms of combat measures. An M2 browning would be more than sufficient to deal with the likes of the type I and II drone units. The rapid fire qualities of the HMG would simply be mulching to the Is, and the IIs wouldn't be smart enough to avoid being shot down.
That depends on the Type II's speed. High-air units flying with great speed would naturally be tougher to take out.

The type I's could use their manouverabillity to dodge and swarm, though this may require manual input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Subaru air tackled one from a dead stop and brought it to the ground.

That takedown had nothing to do with her cyborg strength, only body weight, because she had no point in which to leverage herself to utilize that strength when she was in mid-air. That purely physical move showed us the drone was comparatively equal to, or lighter than herself with the ease in which she managed to tackle it, meaning the drone has very little 'antigrav' thrust ability (It couldn't lift her off or lift off with her on it.), and that it cannot be carrying a very high mass of any realistic existing armor material.
A flawed analogy, we see characters pull mid-air move with high power regularely.

It also should be noted that Subaru did not destroy the drone untill she had it pinned and started drilling into it. With the power she has shown, that would mean the armor is above average.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If they are really at that level of power, they won't need to use AMF - they can be formidable opponents just attacking. Obviously, this is so not happening.
To add, the only drones which were shown being powered by Jewel Seeds were the Type-III, and those were tiny fragments of Jewel Seeds. There is no reason to assume all Drones are powered by the seeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If you use the holo excuse, I can shaft Erio's cutting of the bridge by saying it is but a hologram. Can we agree that if we assume any useful information can be extracted from that exercise (not to mention for the most realistic training), we have to assume that the physical properties simulated by the holo are reasonably accurate?
Their attack power and speed was nerfed by Shari, however, no statement is being made on their toughness.

And I agree that the 'it's a holo' esxcuse doesn't fly either way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In other words, you know what the scene showed, so you appeal to the unknown.
Concidering we have seen characters pull mid-air manouvers more times then I can be arsed to count, that is not an unlikely apeal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
How does Subaru turn into Nanoha. Anyway, IIRC, Nanoha stopped the statue from falling, rather than actually lifting it. I know to the layman the two are almost the same, but scientifically it is not.
Then how about Nanoha lifting a swarm of rocks about her size and tossing them at the drones? Also, halting a heavy object from falling takes more effort then lfiting it from the ground. Not to mention she kept it suspended in the air, rather then put it down, and proceeded to cast several spells while keeping it in the air.
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Old 2008-12-10, 07:17   Link #1638
Arkeus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If they are really at that level of power, they won't need to use AMF - they can be formidable opponents just attacking. Obviously, this is so not happening.
Why? The drones main purpose are for capture. They are not supposed to be doing horrendous amount of damage or make big waves. Boosting their defenses and swarming techniques seems quite effective to me. AMF is also a AAA technique.

Frankly, Jail would have been in a lot more trouble had he used drones with high attacking power, causing waves he couldn't control.

Quote:

If you use the holo excuse, I can shaft Erio's cutting of the bridge by saying it is but a hologram. Can we agree that if we assume any useful information can be extracted from that exercise (not to mention for the most realistic training), we have to assume that the physical properties simulated by the holo are reasonably accurate?



In other words, you know what the scene showed, so you appeal to the unknown.
No. At that time, the drones were said to be nerfed, and the bridge, while an Holo, was a known measure by the TSAB (they can build bridge). The were *still* researching the drones though, and admitted their copies of their abilities were just patchwork.

Different cases.

Quote:
This unjustified extrapolation says much about your lack of scientific mindset.



How does Subaru turn into Nanoha. Anyway, IIRC, Nanoha stopped the statue from falling, rather than actually lifting it. I know to the layman the two are almost the same, but scientifically it is not.
Care to explain how suspending he statue in mid-air while casually talking and using other spells is less strenuous than just lifting it?

Quote:

They were definitely disabled and sparking after a very short stay in said fire. The temperature of the flame can be estimated by looking at its emitted wavelengths. Since it is orange rather than blue or something, one can deduce the temperature as relatively low.
Not really. Anime and flames are kinda stupid. They sometimes uses black flames etc.
Quote:

It is a horrible practice to turn a perceived mistake into an accusation of deliberate deception.
Yeah, but when we see the person not calling it like he sees it, but calling it like what would be best for his argument, it's annoying. It's still the truth. Giving unnecessary information as to counfound the others, and straight false one, is that.
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Old 2008-12-10, 09:12   Link #1639
DezoPenguin
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Probably dangerous to be tossing myself into the middle of an argument like this, but mission profile has to be considered as well when hypothesizing what these drones can do. Jail designed them to operate primarily against mages, after all, not on non-administered worlds operating with mass weapons, so he included AMF as their primary defensive measure. This pretty well nerfs the average mage "grunt," particularly the Mid-styled one, who can't cast pure magic attacks into the field from outside it, or even cast spells from within it.

I'm willing to accept that that an M2 or similar Earth-based weaponry would be able to deal with the Gadget Drones we see in-series, particularly Type Is and IIs, simply because there's no reason for Jail to include heavy physical armor in his redshirt grunts. If he was sending them in against enemies that shoot bullets, he'd probably rewire them to provide barrier or shield defenses rather than AMF (why burn the power on an AMF field if you're fighting a non-magical enemy?) for his hypothetical Type I-A.

(Now, then we're into the age-old debate of how effective magic is vis-a-vis mass weaponry, but that's a different argument.)

As for the rest of it (with regard to evidence), I'd suggest strongly that the physical armor strength of Drones in-series, since it's never defined by statistics and "game-system" function, will vary from episode to episode at the behest of plot. Subaru tackling one, bringing it down, and drilling through it? Looks damn cool, which is what matters at the point.
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Old 2008-12-10, 10:25   Link #1640
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Then how about Nanoha lifting a swarm of rocks about her size and tossing them at the drones? Also, halting a heavy object from falling takes more effort then lfiting it from the ground. Not to mention she kept it suspended in the air, rather then put it down, and proceeded to cast several spells while keeping it in the air.
Nanoha is stronger then Subaru too. Considering she could stop her with arm AND Teana at the same exact time. And still be able to stand there talking to both of them for a few moments.

EDIT:
I think in the books Zerglings can actually take a fair amount of abuse from a Marine's weapon. Though Firebats roast them nice.
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