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Old 2008-12-10, 12:11   Link #1641
Keroko
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Back home and ready to finish the last post I missed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
but then unless she's very weak that says something about the advantage of mass weapons, and Keroko won't like that conclusion very much at all.
You know me too well. ^_^

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The point is that even people that are "agents of the government" don't get an exempt from the ban of mass weapons, even in times of clear need.
The situation could be handled with proper training, there was no 'clear need' for mass weaponry. If Regius hadn't been stubborn and let his troops train anti-AMF tactics, then things wouldn't have gotten as far out of hand as they did. You'll note that a handful of squads properly trained were able to hold of an entire army of drones.

A clear need would have been if there was no way around the AMF, and mass-weaponry were the only, or the only viable, solution. There was no such situation here.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is axiomatic to say that nothing can really be disproven, however, it IS a strong blow against. Regardless of Runessa being an exception, the general direction of the bureau is IMO still extremely clear on this point. The TSAB can't have a strong anti-mass policy and then just whip out permits for mass handguns when it can just throw out autocasters.
The difference between a mass handgun and an auto-caster are virtually non-existant anyway, which may explain why they decided not to re-invent the wheel and stick with a few exceptions on handguns.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Unless, of course, the gun is massively more tactically efficient, which says something either about autocasters or about magic in general (watches Keroko growl).
If that were the case, we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more of them.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It was really, considering the density of the field, a squirm out that might barely pass muster in the OC thread. Heck, we are explicitly told that the Bureau does witchhunts on mass weapons in SS Ep14. It isn't anyone's fault they decide to do a reversal.

Face it, regardless of your views on Paranoia Theory, the reason you didn't support this idea until right about now is because the evidence is going the other way. This will be even more true of a person like you, who holds intent and dialogue in such relative esteem.
My countries police force does witchhunts to illegally possessed weaponry. That doesn't mean they're paranoid.

And wasn't it you who said something along the lines of 'when new evidence is introduced, the old has to be reviewed?' same case here. Just because I supported something in the past doesn't mean I'm willing to admit my mistake and change my views. I did so on magic damage, I did so on heat-seeking magic, and I've done so on the mass-weapon paranoia.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And the fact that even criminals apparently don't do that is yet another point in favor of the good old brainwashing theory.
The SSX poacher and Jail, coincidentally the only non-mage villains we've seen, beg to differ.

So let's review, so far all villains that didn't have access to magic resorted to mass-based weaponry. I think it's safe to say the brainwashing theory has been smashed, as villains do resort to guns.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I never tried to disprove the existence of auto-casting. That clearly would be false. However, I was trying to show that there is no evidence for, and some against, the idea of weapons-grade autocasters in the man-sized range.
Those cubes were barely bigger then Eisen's head, and there were no power cords connecting them to the ship.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) In Mid, both "police" and civvies are allowed to carry devices.
Name me one civilian that we've seen carrying a device.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
2) With one possible known exception so far, netiher police, civvies or apparently even criminals (as you said, they don't care about law) can get a mass weapon, nor will they seriously think of getting one even when it is useful.
Criminals I've already handled, and ideally one often tries not to break or use the loopholes their own laws if alternatives are available.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, until Runessa came along, they've been feeding us every piece of evidence for this paranoia. I agree with your SoD conclusion, that we have to downgrade from "absolute paranoia" to just "very very serious paranoia", but this is IMO, truly a case where we groan at the creators and mutter "SoD, SoD, SoD!"
If it's all the same to you, I'll downgrade to 'we prefer magic' rather then any form of paranoia.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
So? Given that mass weapons is likely the best single counter for drones - and if you don't like bullet guns you can try heat bolts like what the Gadgets themselves use. It doesn't happen. It isn't even considered.
It was considered, and rejected for an alternative that was more in line with the bureaus ideals.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Finally, it IS Middie concrete. We've had many chances, thanks to your diligence to observe it in action
Do you have any evidence for your concrete speculation apart from the framerate counts which I've shown inaccurate who-knows-how-many times? A name? A line by a character? A booklet entry? An innocent looking sign by the road that says 'careful, weak concrete?'

No?

Then we'll consider it normal concrete. Otherwise I can just as easily go ahead and join the 'but drones have lightweight yet bulletproof armor that can only be broken by magic' group.
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Old 2008-12-10, 12:24   Link #1642
Comartemis
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Name me one civilian that we've seen carrying a device.
Yuuno, for one. Teana also built her Anchor Gun before she ever joined the academy so the tools to build devices, at least, are available to civilians.
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Old 2008-12-10, 12:27   Link #1643
Keroko
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... Touché. I had forgotten about that. Though Teana's case is excusable as she was a recruit and the device was constructed for Bureau purposes.
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Old 2008-12-10, 13:34   Link #1644
Arkeus
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cough cough.

Uh...Nanoha, "civilian collaborator", cough cough.

Fate too. Her device wasn't taken in MGLN, and in A's she wasn't part of the bureau yet (though she did do a test).
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Old 2008-12-10, 14:53   Link #1645
Comartemis
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True, if devices were military equipment then Lindy would have confiscated RH until Nanoha agreed to collaborate with the bureau. Yuuno probably would have been in trouble for possessing RH in the first place, being a citizen of Mid.
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Old 2008-12-10, 16:44   Link #1646
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Uh...Nanoha, "civilian collaborator", cough cough.Fate too. Her device wasn't taken in MGLN, and in A's she wasn't part of the bureau yet (though she did do a test).
It's the 'collaborator' part that does it. She was already set to join the bureau, so it wouldn't matter.

Fate was a criminal, and Precia didn't care about the laws when equipping and training her daughter for combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
True, if devices were military equipment then Lindy would have confiscated RH until Nanoha agreed to collaborate with the bureau. Yuuno probably would have been in trouble for possessing RH in the first place, being a citizen of Mid.
This is pretty much a non-issue, considering ideally Lindy should have plucked both of them from combat. Not to mention Yuuno would have been in trouble for possessing Lost Logia, which are far more hazardous then a single Device any day.
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Old 2008-12-10, 17:00   Link #1647
Arkeus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It's the 'collaborator' part that does it. She was already set to join the bureau, so it wouldn't matter.
I meant Fate after being Retrieved. They didn't take the device, and she was a civil.

All she did was take a "verification Exam", a temporary mage exam.

http://www.onemanga.com/Magical_Girl...anoha_As/2/01/

And being a collaborator doesn't mean being slated to work in the military at all O.o

Edit: Hell, they didn't even take her device when she was in trial, i think (they didn't take it when they took custody of her).
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Old 2008-12-10, 17:11   Link #1648
Keroko
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No, but it was pretty clear she was going to join anyway.

Edit: Blar, why am I even debating this? I already acknowledged that civilians have no clear restriction in obtaining Devices. <_<
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Old 2008-12-10, 19:15   Link #1649
Kikaifan
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I really don't see how it points out that the round WON'T penetrate unreinforced concrete when I just posted a video showing a single round go through four cinderblocks of concrete like it was nothing... (With enough energy left over to go flying out the top and to who knows where.)

The rest of the argument you pretty much argued both sides to and saved us hours of trouble.
Cinder blocks, sure. A few feet of poured concrete, no. .50 armor piercing rounds are described in DoD documentation as being appropriate for use against concrete enclosures, but the chart at the end of this page (he lists his sources at the bottom of the main page; I'm not interested enough to look into them myself) seems to support my gut feeling that something like the bridge Erio brought down wouldn't take much damage.

Of course like you said this is really only an argument for the Type IIIs.


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Those cubes were barely bigger then Eisen's head, and there were no power cords connecting them to the ship.
The power core they were protecting was also floating free in the air but it was obviously delivering power to the ship somehow. I don't think the presence or absence of physical connections tells us much one way or the other here.
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Old 2008-12-10, 19:17   Link #1650
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
A flawed analogy, we see characters pull mid-air move with high power regularely.

It also should be noted that Subaru did not destroy the drone untill she had it pinned and started drilling into it. With the power she has shown, that would mean the armor is above average.
She was going into it at low speed.

Quote:
Their attack power and speed was nerfed by Shari, however, no statement is being made on their toughness.

And I agree that the 'it's a holo' esxcuse doesn't fly either way.
IIRC, it was already one of those Type I's more agile days. Not to mention one of the days when the AMF is simulated as most effective - you don't see many complete disablements of magic after this... You can actually make an argument that Shari made the drones more effective than they would in real life - a common training technique.

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Concidering we have seen characters pull mid-air manouvers more times then I can be arsed to count, that is not an unlikely apeal.
But Subaru nominally can't fly, and also, Occam's Razor.

Quote:
Also, halting a heavy object from falling takes more effort then lfiting it from the ground. Not to mention she kept it suspended in the air, rather then put it down, and proceeded to cast several spells while keeping it in the air.
Intuitively, it seems that way. Objectively, however, the amount of force is more or less comparable depending on the amount of acceleration you exerted. From an energy perspective, however, the minimum amount of energy needed to stop a heavy object from falling to the ground is actually zero and in fact you "rob" the falling object of KE as you stop it, so in theory you can recover some of the energy for yourself. Keeping something suspended, similarly, takes force but no energy.
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Old 2008-12-10, 19:43   Link #1651
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Intuitively, it seems that way. Objectively, however, the amount of force is more or less comparable depending on the amount of acceleration you exerted. From an energy perspective, however, the minimum amount of energy needed to stop a heavy object from falling to the ground is actually zero and in fact you "rob" the falling object of KE as you stop it, so in theory you can recover some of the energy for yourself. Keeping something suspended, similarly, takes force but no energy.
Um, what? The impulse is about the same if the distance fallen and raised are the same but unless you have a way of applying force over the entire fall peak forces are going to be much higher on the catch.

Also it's misleading to say that keeping something suspended takes force but no energy. There is no energy change in the object suspended, but the object/system doing the suspending is another matter.
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Old 2008-12-10, 21:13   Link #1652
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Um, what? The impulse is about the same if the distance fallen and raised are the same but unless you have a way of applying force over the entire fall peak forces are going to be much higher on the catch.
It is only higher on the catch if you apply delta-v very quickly. Forcewise, that is equivalent to lifting the object very quickly.

Not to mention the main emphasis is about energy, and for the object being stopped, being "caught" involves a LOSS of energy that can be recovered. A simple example will be to stop it using friction - the friction will heat up the rubbing surface, and can theoretically be soaked off for work elsewhere.

Quote:
Also it's misleading to say that keeping something suspended takes force but no energy. There is no energy change in the object suspended, but the object/system doing the suspending is another matter.
Since there is no energy change, and certainly no energy addition, if the suspender is actually burning energy, it is because of mechanistic [b]inefficiency[/i] in the suspender. With magic, we don't really know the mechanism, so we evaluate thermodynamically with energy balances.

Even in real life, if you use a piece of string, you can keep something suspended with no energy.
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Old 2008-12-10, 21:32   Link #1653
Kikaifan
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1) Point's the same though, yes? Lifting something very heavy very quickly is a lot more impressive than lifting it slowly, a quick catch is more impressive than a slow lift.

2) So it's very possible that keeping something suspended with magic takes a lot of energy.
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Old 2008-12-10, 22:02   Link #1654
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
1) Point's the same though, yes? Lifting something very heavy very quickly is a lot more impressive than lifting it slowly,
Correct.

Quote:
a quick catch is more impressive than a slow lift.
Correct for force, wrong for energy.

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2) So it's very possible that keeping something suspended with magic takes a lot of energy.
Then you have to explain where all the energy went.
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Old 2008-12-10, 22:28   Link #1655
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What exactly is ark trying to prove?

As far as I've seen and dscribed. Subaru's air-tackle is pretty simple.

She has X mass, only slightly higher than normal human X mass.

She then performs a quick flip, leg-grab air tackle on the drone trying to flank her. Subaru can't fly, so once she leaves the ground, she no longer has any point from which to apply her extra strength, and the application of impact force is now mass X velocity.

The drone she tackles cannot weigh near to, or significantly more than her, or she would end up latching onto it and the mutual center of gravity that results would pivot either somewhere in the drone, or between the two of them. What occures, is she flips, scissors the drone, and with her own body weight, brings it down, mounting the back of it in the process. In fact, her stomach remained the center of the spin the entire time. Meaning the center mass of the combined entity was still squarely on her.

That puts the drone at half her mass or less. Since part of her physical mass was wrapped around the drone, but the center of the spin remained in her center-mass.

If Subaru, cyborg parts and all, weighs around 200 lbs, that puts the drone at or below 100 lbs.

If I were to guess, the drone probably weighs sixty to seventy lbs. About the weight of a fully loaded US military duffel bag. (And incidently, of similar size, with the drone having a volume advantage.)

http://www.fototime.com/0C1ED25781F69F1/orig.jpg

That would mean little to no armor at all, and in fact, more than likely most of it's construction is probably more plastic than metal, especiallly the outer case to keep it light and cheap, especially if the more important functional internal parts are heavy... Also makes it energy cheap to fly, and a resource cheap engine can be used on it. (Which helps to explain why subaru could keep it easily pinned with her bodyweight once she tackled it...)

(As a side note: Using plastic or light ceramic for the case would also make it harder to detect with lower tech tracking methods, like radar. Helping to expedite the fact that drones seem to pop up on the sensors whenever they want.)

Since these are the cheap redshirt drones, it makes perfect sense that they aren't made with substantial and valueable metals. Though, at the same time, they get called, 'scrap metal cousins' by one of Jail's team. (Either Jail himself, or one of the numbers.) So that means they would have to have a primary construction of metal...

So my vote would be plastic, and aluminum construction as the primary material set. Tin, and Zinc are at least three times heavier, and actual usefull metals that would make decent armoring for the casing weigh up to ten times that much or more.

So I guess that would make Jail the universe's greatest recycler of aluminum cans and plastic tupperware containers! ^_^v
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Old 2008-12-10, 23:12   Link #1656
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I'm glad to know my soda habit directly supports the creation of more nubile young cyborgs.
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Old 2008-12-10, 23:35   Link #1657
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I'm glad to know my soda habit directly supports the creation of more nubile young cyborgs.
Uh... no.

You support the creation of one of these:
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/59/drone02er8.jpg



I'm pretty certain the metal skeleton structures of the nubile young cyborgs would be made with something that could actually withstand cyclic tension... like titanium alloy or something that's actually STRONG.
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Old 2008-12-11, 00:16   Link #1658
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
What exactly is ark trying to prove?
Just some quick swipes at people trying to use magical stabilization to provide leverage for Subaru, allowing the drone to be heavier (better protected) in your below calc, and a quickie clarification of the differences between stopping something from falling and actually lifting something.

Very good analysis down there, BTW.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The situation could be handled with proper training, there was no 'clear need' for mass weaponry. If Regius hadn't been stubborn and let his troops train anti-AMF tactics, then things wouldn't have gotten as far out of hand as they did. You'll note that a handful of squads properly trained were able to hold of an entire army of drones.
Regius merely had other priorities and didn't quite have time to finish. I don't know why everyone tries to show him up as an incompetent villain. He's actually a person of immense moral courage who actively tries to find a strategic solution to his problems.

There's another way to see the "handful of squads". We've always been wondering where the heck everyone else was in the final battle. Here's an quickie idea: everyone else was actually there, and they started out with entire regiments or even divisions, but out of all those units, those "handful of squads" were the only scraps of them that were trainable to be even marginally effective in the AMF environment. Knowing this they just glued them into two composite units under Nakajima (ground) and Hayate (air) and sent them into the fray. How's that?

Quote:
A clear need would have been if there was no way around the AMF, and mass-weaponry were the only, or the only viable, solution. There was no such situation here.
While one might argue that in the end, the 108th Battalion (or were they the glued-together scraps from countless battalions all temporarily under Nakajima?) marginally handled the situation (though they were immensely helped by the ridiculous lack of aggression on the part of those Gadget Drones... were they even turning on their AMFs, because I sure don't remember seeing that wavy effect a whole lot during those grunt battles) one also has to remember the Principal's assessment of all this.

If Regius or any other high official went and did a study on "How hard would it be to get our guys to be competent in a AMF environment", one of the first things they'll do is go to the principal, just like Fate did, and we all know the conclusion (right or wrong) she gave - it might be possible to get limited, elite groups to be competent in it, but as a forcewide program the prospects are poor, and it sure would be nice if mass weapons were allowed! Thus, the situation, as the decisionmakers would have perceived it, mass weapons were arguably the only viable solution!

By the way, such input might be a factor for Regius to push anti-AMF work to the backburner. Regardless of secret programs, all generals work on analyses of cost effectiveness, and given a report that such a program has a "low success probability", it is in fact perfectly logical for him to divert resources elsewhere. There's no way he could know that the input was wrong (and was it really so wrong - see above), especially seeing he isn't a mage and this means he can't really understand the issues as intuitively as one, especially after his mage friend Zest bit the dust.

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The difference between a mass handgun and an auto-caster are virtually non-existant anyway, which may explain why they decided not to re-invent the wheel and stick with a few exceptions on handguns.
First you crow about the advantages of magic, then you say an "auto-caster" and a "mass handgun" have "virtually non-existent" differences? Which is it?

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My countries police force does witchhunts to illegally possessed weaponry. That doesn't mean they're paranoid.
When your nation's police force disarms itself on the same principles and sticks solely to batons and tasers even in the face of enemies that can be defeated only with guns, call me.

Quote:
And wasn't it you who said something along the lines of 'when new evidence is introduced, the old has to be reviewed?' same case here. Just because I supported something in the past doesn't mean I'm willing to admit my mistake and change my views. I did so on magic damage, I did so on heat-seeking magic, and I've done so on the mass-weapon paranoia.
Yes, I'm reviewing it, same as you, and I applaud your SoD acceptance. But I think it is important to be able to recognize between when you are recomputing your information because you have made an analysis error of the data you had, when you are recomputing because of information that existed but you missed, and when you are recomputing b/c the author threw a new wrench into the works. And to kick the author instead of yourself when it is the latter case.

Quote:
The SSX poacher and Jail, coincidentally the only non-mage villains we've seen, beg to differ.
You do have a point. I do have to reinterpret Jail in light of this new evidence as well.

Quote:
So let's review, so far all villains that didn't have access to magic resorted to mass-based weaponry. I think it's safe to say the brainwashing theory has been smashed, as villains do resort to guns.
Agreed.

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Those cubes were barely bigger then Eisen's head, and there were no power cords connecting them to the ship.
I suppose you meant Eisen's head in Gigant form, not Hammer form Anyway, when Nanoha pumped energy, she didn't use wiring, nor were the simulated drones in the magi-tech simulator wired in. It is all wireless transmission.

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If it's all the same to you, I'll downgrade to 'we prefer magic' rather then any form of paranoia.
Well, obviously, the new solution says criminals use mass, which is not so horrible a change when you consider the degree of indoctrination needed to get to even the last criminal.

Quote:
It was considered, and rejected for an alternative that was more in line with the bureaus ideals.
In that case, the Bureau values its "ideals" over the lives and health of its members (see the analysis near the top for why). Which is still pretty uh, paranoid / indoctrinated.

By the way, when did Runessa get her licence? Is it possible that her getting the licence is one of the post-Scarlietti reforms?

Quote:
Do you have any evidence for your concrete speculation apart from the framerate counts which I've shown inaccurate who-knows-how-many times? A name? A line by a character? A booklet entry? An innocent looking sign by the road that says 'careful, weak concrete?'

No?

Then we'll consider it normal concrete. Otherwise I can just as easily go ahead and join the 'but drones have lightweight yet bulletproof armor that can only be broken by magic' group.
Actually, you hadn't been able to show any reason that it is inaccurate, other than your dislikes and your inability to believe (what happened to your acceptance up there) that Middie concrete (technically a concrete-lookalike) can be weaker.

And personally, I can't think of any better way for an author to slip in this little tidbit about Midchildran concrete than by showing it ... repeatedly.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-12-11 at 00:34.
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Old 2008-12-11, 00:43   Link #1659
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Uh... no.

You support the creation of one of these:
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/59/drone02er8.jpg



I'm pretty certain the metal skeleton structures of the nubile young cyborgs would be made with something that could actually withstand cyclic tension... like titanium alloy or something that's actually STRONG.
But the drones gather the relics that make the nubile young cyborgs. It's a bottoms-up process. Like with beer.
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Old 2008-12-11, 01:25   Link #1660
Jimmy C
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No, the Relics aren't used to make the cyborgs. Though they did go into Zest, Lutecia and Vivio.
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