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Old 2008-12-12, 23:40   Link #1681
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
I'm not certain whether Arf would be affected by Fate's limiter.
Since she's serving in a civilian role she wouldn't be subject to limiters.
All indications are familiars get all their powers from their masters. If what Fate has is dialed down, then Arf will get proportionally less. So, no way she's going to still be an S if Fate's an AA.

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Don't forget, Sein spends most of the battle on standby, apparently swimming on circles waiting to support her sisters if they need it. Even if the RF6 assault force is driven off, Sein can still swoop in and pluck Vivio right out of the base
This, at least, is not impossible to prevent. For Sein to snatch something with her Deep Diver, it must be completely unshielded. In addition, Jail's forces have to at least localise Vivio for Sein to grab her. It looks like they weren't able to do that until Vice went down. So, if the RF6 assault force can be driven off, Sien may not have enough info to find VIvio and snatch her.
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Old 2008-12-13, 00:03   Link #1682
Comartemis
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All indications are familiars get all their powers from their masters. If what Fate has is dialed down, then Arf will get proportionally less. So, no way she's going to still be an S if Fate's an AA.
I know familiars get their energy from their masters, what I'm wondering about is the specifics of the process, which would have an impact on how much energy Arf has available while Fate is limited. I'm also wondering how exactly the limiters work to reduce a mage's stats.

The most immediate format that comes to mind for the familiar question is a direct energy transfer; every unit of magic given to Arf is one pulled directly from Fate's mana pool. But if Arf and Fate are both AAA-ranks in Classic then that means Fate would have to have magic equal to twice that of a AAA-rank mage to support both of them, which should easily place her in the SS range. Now I know Fate's good and all, but SS-rank at age 10 without the BoD backing her up seems pretty excessive.

There's also the question of how exactly the limiters function. If they work by somehow reducing all of a mage's stats and total combat capability, sort of like magical training weights, then I can see Arf being affected by Fate's limiter. But if the limiters function by limiting the amount of mana a mage can harness and use at one time, then Fate would still have an S-rank mana pool even when limited, and Arf would be able to draw from that mana supply freely.
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Old 2008-12-13, 00:24   Link #1683
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
There's also the question of how exactly the limiters function.
However they function, I simply can't imagine them allowing any magical energy flow above what the limit under any circumstances. As I said before, that seems to be such a blantant loophole, it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
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Old 2008-12-13, 00:59   Link #1684
DezoPenguin
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
However they function, I simply can't imagine them allowing any magical energy flow above what the limit under any circumstances. As I said before, that seems to be such a blantant loophole, it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
Still depends on how familiars function, though. Clearly the limiter isn't going to just snuff Arf out of existence. I could easily see a situation in which Arf's existence is fueled out of Fate's total available "mana pool" (making Fate's...I guess you could call it "spell point maximum" equal to her natural maximum minus a fixed figure for Arf) while the limiter chokes off what Fate can draw upon for any individual casting.

This would imply that limited-Nanoha and Fate are more effective that normal AAs, and not just because of their personal skill level; they'd be able to continue using their AA magic for much longer in battle due to their S+ mana pools that they could draw upon.

It also explains why it's Hayate who's the first person who gets her limiter released. Hayate, who relies less on the precise application of force in battle, needs her higher power level to be effective.

What I don't see is where the assumption comes from that Arf is equivalent in power to a AAA-ranked mage. In A's, Arf and Zafira are possibly equals, and by StrikerS, it appears that Zafira is AA rank unless I'm misinterpreting. Also, by making her AAA-rank, that would make her equal in power to Fate, and I don't see how a familiar could be equal in power to its master...
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Old 2008-12-13, 01:12   Link #1685
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It's the fact that she was roughly a match for Yuuno in Classic that had me mark her as AAA, though now that I think on it Yuuno was actually just a synthetic A-rank with Epic Shields.
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Old 2008-12-13, 04:01   Link #1686
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
It's called "initiative" you know. I thought you'd like Bureau personnel to actually use their brains and decide when to act instead of needing ot be kicked into action by their commanders.
...initiative is a desirable characteristic in a soldier only when the effect is concentric rather than eccentric: the rifleman who plunges ahead and seizes a point of high ground which common sense says cannot be held can bring greater jeopardy to a company than any mere malingerer - Marshall.

The initiative that TSABians typically exhibit doesn't even deserve to be called "native wit", because that would imply they actually used their craniums, which from their actions doesn't always seem to be the case.

More generally, it is only safe to allow initiative when your subordinates 1) Know the Situation and 2) Know your Intent. If it is impossible for some reason to provide both, then initiative is dangerous (as Zest proved). And if your troops lack discipline so you can restrain their "initiative" as needed in such cases, the only way out is to put them far far away so they won't use their initiative and get themselves killed or spoil your plan - which might be part of what Regius is doing and why he can't keep as good an eye on Jail as he should or wanted.

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Like I said, we were never shown if all other avenues were exhausted before. Or perhaps they had precedent from previous attempts to base HQ forces on Mid that Regius would be less than receptive to the idea.
Maybe, but isn't it cute how we routinely cut our heroines this assumed slack, while Regius gets zip?

Maybe, if they had tried cooperation, they would have been legally able to bring in more guys than what they can achieve by going under the radar.

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That's assuming he's interested in completely defeating such an attack. What if his original plan was the HQ would come under attack by drones that would be driven off by the Cyborgs?
Where's that Cyborg going to come from?

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Not going to happen. That's GFHQ's rules and RF6 is in no position to argue. Or did you forget that part? Why do you think they gave their devices to the Forwards in the first place?
Deploy outside. The response time advantage you get from being inside is kind of blown if the first thing you do is to have to run outside to get your weapon, while the team outside can't really respond for the first critical minutes because they are trying to bring the weapons inside to you!

Not to mention, one must ask. Did they even try pushing for the right to carry weapons inside? How about a compromise where the weapon is carried inside, but is in the hands of another person (from another unit, of course!) close by (two-man rule?) Or did they really just go "OK", turn and say "That's the deal, Forwards. We are going in. Carry our weapons for.us."

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That doesn't matter because, unless her limiter is released, Hayate is only an A-rank. And the only person who can release her limiter is Carim, who will be out of contact once the attack begins.
Actually, they were still able to talk to RF6 HQ from the building, albeit with some noise, so they were not completely out of contact.

Besides, not knowing the enemy's exact strategy, you don't put your weapons effectively into storage just because if you deploy it your PAL to it might be jammed.

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End result, no improvement and Hayate could probably be so badly injured, she's out of the final battle.
Else Zafira and Shamal will be critically injured protecting her and be out of the final battle too. At best, they'll all recover in time to do the things they did in that battle.
It doesn't change the fact that this battle still goes down the tubes for RF6.
Has the possibility of Hayate, even at A, being something of an asset rather than a liability occur to you? For example, by taking over some of the shooting of Gadgets. That might mean Shamal and Zafira would be fresher when Otto and Deed moves in and might be able to put up a better fight.

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If Fate's dialed down to AA, I don't think she really can send the excess to Arf. Since that's such a blatant exploit of a loophole, I doubt it's possible.
1) I think the evidence favors that familiars are not directly affected by the limiter. Otherwise, Arf's power level would surge and fade as Fate's limiter goes on and off. With Fate already going to combat ineffective mini-Arf before the limiters, when the goddamn limiters go to RESTRICT Arf will really feel it, yet there is no evidence of any such adjustment. Thus, it should be possible to wire the system to do what I suggested.
2) Remember that it is the rank limit / unit that's law. The limiters are a tool, and really more there to make a joke out of the law. While Hayate's limiter is treated somewhat seriously, Nanoha and Fate's are just snapped off, apparently near at will. If anything, transferring some of the power to the familiar may actually be making less of a joke, because it probably can't be reversed as quickly.
3) Regardless of any "hidden" control motives, the nominal purpose of the rank limit / unit law is to ensure an equitable distribution of power. In this light, a master can "split" some of his power between several familiars to be very helpful to several different units. A limiter that restricts this possibility is inefficient. Meanwhile, his power is reduced so his own unit gets an "equitable" share of capability - who cares if he does it with a limiter or by sharing out some oompf?

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Unless her presence can turn the tide and drive off all the attackers, that's no improvement. The base still gets trashed. Vivio still gets captured. And Arf is likely to be as badly injured as Zafira by the end of it, so there's an extra casualty now for no extra gain.
Security seeks to deter, then repel, but as a final, to delay. It is still a partial success if adding Arf means they lose but say delays that outcome by 5 more minutes, because the 5 minutes may be just what's needed to get some reinforcements that will in turn turn the tide. Of course, they might not, but that's the job of security, to maximize that chance by buying every minute of time possible, and if the objective is important enough, to buy that time with their lives.

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You sure are willing the hypothesize whatever you need to strengthen your arguments while crushing other people's brutally.
But wouldn't the inverse be true of you?

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I think you're overrating the capabilities of the training field, I doubt holoweapons will be of much use against the Cyborgs, if the field's even capable of generating them in the first place.
While we might dispute exactly how good a holoweapon the field can make (and I don't think they can make Holo-Nanoha, even within the field), they can definitely make Holo-Gadgets that shoot. Ergo, they can make some kind of holoweapon.

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Not to mention, if they hole up in there and Jail's forces cut the power to the field, they will have no cover.
They'll have to find the power distribution system(s) first, and disable them against the resistance of our defenders. Besides, hiding in that building isn't exactly a whole lot of cover either.

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There's also the fact that the drones had their AMF full up during this attack, you saw how it overwhelmed GFHQ's shields, how long do you think the field will last under that assault?
No improvement, leads to even faster defeat once they loose power.
Actually, while I'm sure Otto can blast through the holobuildings eventually, and no doubt the shield overall has more power the simfield has two HUGE edges over Regius' shield that makes it more effective against this particular attack.

1) It creates what seems to be pseudomatter buildings instead of being a glowing forcefield. While AMF is effective at dissolving forcefields and magic attacks, AMF is basically ineffective in dissolving pseudomatter. Even a full shaft AMF on the Cradle fails to dissolve Barrier Jackets and Rein. Thus, AMF might do nothing or very little on the buildings.
2) DEPTH. No matter how strong Reggie's shield is, it is only one thin plane that can be penetrated. The simfield can create countless layers and the drones' AMF effect zone is not very big. So the drones neutralize the walls one at a time, burning up seconds or worse with each wall. Remember the importance of Delay in Security.

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Time to do what? The reinforcements returning from GFHQ got intercepted, and everyone else is tied up back there. By the time they realise that Erio, Caro and Fate aren't enough to save their base, it's already too late to send more people.
End result: no improvement in outcome.
By buying time, you push back the point of it being "too late". So they have more time to get out of the interception.

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To be considered better than RF6's performance, you need to deny at least one of Jail's objectives in the attacks:
Wreck GFHQ
Can greatly improve in this respect just by being able to respond faster, though some damage is inevitable.

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Wreck RF6's base
See above.

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Capture at least one Type-0
Might have happened had they ENGAGED Wendi and Novu instead of disengaging to deliver weapons to Nanoha

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Capture Vivio
If they can't wreck the base, they are unlikely to find and get Vivio.

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Bonus objective 1, no extra casualties
Not really so important an objective. Security is about risking men to protect certain objectives. And remember that a good showing here means that Jail can't carry out his plan, as least not immediately. If they all get hurt, but put enough of a dent in Scarlietti that day he can't execute his plan next week (forever?), that's still a success.

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Bonus objective 2, the new deployment makes you, ark, go "yeah! they kicked Jail's ass!" Instead of "They couldn't save their base or their friends, what losers"
If they did everything I say, there's no reason they can't convince me to at least say "They did their best."

You have to remember that good guys getting drubbed by the bad guys in mid-game is a rather common plot, so that's not why we are bashing them. The reason is because they fell so far short in Process that it crushed the normal Literary SoD tolerance of many people, including me.

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The only thing I can think of is Nanoha or Fate being paranoid enough to set up an emergency teleport to send Vivio to Earth in the event of an attack on the base. That's extremely low-probability, they have more important things to spend their scarce resources on. Even if they did that, it might not be usable once the base is AMF'd.
They had some warning there.

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He might have. Since Zest still considered Regius a friend until he died, he might have told Regius about Quint adpoting the two Type-0s she freed. That might be enough for Regius to keep an eye on them. The thing was, neither of them ever used their ISes until StrikerS it seems. So that's not helpful to his agenda.
Maybe he's trying to obtain some critical mass before he makes his announcement. Further, remember that Ginga is a A and Subaru was a B. These are hardly the examples to make the case that Combat Cyborgs would be the solution to the MGLN's Capability Shortage.
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Old 2008-12-13, 12:15   Link #1687
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Maybe, if they had tried cooperation, they would have been legally able to bring in more guys than what they can achieve by going under the radar.
Come on, you know the last thing Regius wants is to have HQ's forces looking over his shoulders while his Master Plan is going into action. He'd make sure to throw up as many roadblocks as possible and probably did.

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Where's that Cyborg going to come from?
His original idea was that probably the Cyborgs would swoop in to save the day, that's probably what Jail told him. Unfortunately, Jail didn't tell him about his real plans.

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Deploy outside. The response time advantage you get from being inside is kind of blown if the first thing you do is to have to run outside to get your weapon, while the team outside can't really respond for the first critical minutes because they are trying to bring the weapons inside to you!
Do remember that they had no idea where the threat was going to emerge from or how it would develop. As a result, I'm sure they felt it was prudent to have someone inside the building as well. Given what they did and didn't know (and not what you know from watching the show) what would be a convincing argument for RF6 not to have anyone inside the building at all? What if the attack involved sealing off the building from the outside then slaugthering everyone inside? They don't know that isn't the case, so they need someone inside. Since anyone inside will be without their devices, should they send the Forwards who would really be useless without their devices, or the veterans who can do some magic without their devices?

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Did they even try pushing for the right to carry weapons inside? How about a compromise where the weapon is carried inside, but is in the hands of another person (from another unit, of course!) close by (two-man rule?)
Do you have any idea what kind of bureaucracy you're talking about here? That rule has probably been around since GFHQ's establishment 75 years ago. Those kinds of rules don't get changed or compromised overnight, especially when the person who has to approve the changes (Regius) has decided that the person asking for the changes (Hayate or her supporters) is public enemy number one.

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Or did they really just go "OK", turn and say "That's the deal, Forwards. We are going in. Carry our weapons for.us."
It's the rules, military personnel are conditioned to obey first and question later, right? Just now, you said Bureau officers are too incompetent to be given initiative, now, you want them to challenge a clear rule laid down by their superiors, one that probably involves issues well above their rank? Make up your mind!

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Actually, they were still able to talk to RF6 HQ from the building, albeit with some noise, so they were not completely out of contact.
But is it enough to allow Carim to release the limiter? I think it's just a bit more complicated than a vocal "approved" signal. Might include sending something similiar to the digital certificates we use online. It might or might not get through the interference. Given Jail's attention to detail in his attacks that day, you shouldn't assume things will turn out for the best for our heroes just for your benefit.

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Has the possibility of Hayate, even at A, being something of an asset rather than a liability occur to you?
So now you think an A-rank Hayate can put up a fight? Haven't you been arguing that the Aces, even without limiters, aren't all that impressive?

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For example, by taking over some of the shooting of Gadgets. That might mean Shamal and Zafira would be fresher when Otto and Deed moves in and might be able to put up a better fight.
And if RF6 can throw in Hayate, Jail can have Lutecia throw in a few Jirai-ohs. Those should be able to soak up any attacks that an A-rank Hayate can dish out.

There's another matter, I thought that being unable to release the limiter would be enough so I dropped it the first time. If you think Hayate would be useful at the RF6, wouldn't Hayate think she would be even more useful at GFHQ? With all the indicators they saw, they decided GFHQ was the primary target, so she decided to go along to provide extra firepower if neccessary. What are you going to say to her to convince her to stay and protect their base, contrary to the prophecy that they knew? Besides, Jail's shown no interest in their base before. How were they supposed to know it needed that level of protection?

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I think the evidence favors that familiars are not directly affected by the limiter. Otherwise, Arf's power level would surge and fade as Fate's limiter goes on and off.
Due to the fact that they hardly bothered to show Arf at all, we have no way of knowing if that didn't in fact happen.

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With Fate already going to combat ineffective mini-Arf before the limiters, when the goddamn limiters go to RESTRICT Arf will really feel it, yet there is no evidence of any such adjustment.
Arf cut down her energy intake to let Fate have more to fight with when she grew up. It's probably at a level that wouldn't inconvinience an AA-ranked Fate. So no need to change anything there.
There's another matter, if Fate could send her excess energy to Arf, why hadn't she done so already? Why is Arf still in chibi-form at the end of the series? Perhaps you want to say she's really dumb. But with the way you keep telling me to stick to what's probable at least, isn't it more probable that she can't send that excess to Arf?
We also don't know if a master can change the energy flow to the familiar on-the-fly. If that's not possible, then Fate risks not being able to access that huge flow she assigned to Arf when her limiter is released. Do you think it's wise of her to take that chance?

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While Hayate's limiter is treated somewhat seriously, Nanoha and Fate's are just snapped off, apparently near at will.
I don't know where you got that impression. But only once in ep11 did either of them even contemplate releasing her limiter to deal with a situation. And it was only for the final battle that everyone's limiters were released. So where did you get the impression that they casually snap off their limiters when they feel like it?

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Regardless of any "hidden" control motives, the nominal purpose of the rank limit / unit law is to ensure an equitable distribution of power. In this light, a master can "split" some of his power between several familiars to be very helpful to several different units.
The thing is, you're talking about an unrestricted energy output channel for the mage. Who's to say that energy flow is really going to a familiar? What if it's sent to a dummy system that redirects it back to the mage for her use?
Also, what's stopping the mage from reducing the flow to the familar and increasing her own capacity whenever she wants?
Since that hole allows ways to cheat the limiter, I can't see why they would allow it if they implemented limiters in the first place.

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It is still a partial success if adding Arf means they lose but say delays that outcome by 5 more minutes, because the 5 minutes may be just what's needed to get some reinforcements that will in turn turn the tide.
If Arf really had been at RF6 that day in the series, do you think they would bother to show how much longer they lasted due to her? They'd show an engagement or two, then her going down. And you'd probably say, "smart of Fate to bring Arf in, too bad it didn't do them any good. Now, what can they do to save their base?"

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But wouldn't the inverse be true of you?
I've never been able to hypothesize your arguments away. The few times I did beat you were when I had a better logical argument.

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they can definitely make Holo-Gadgets that shoot. Ergo, they can make some kind of holoweapon.
One that's based on magic, that would be disrupted if not rendered completely ineffective by the AMF.

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They'll have to find the power distribution system(s) first, and disable them against the resistance of our defenders.
And if our defenders were covering the power distribution systems and the refugees cowering in the holofield, they're spread thin. Defeat in detail time.
The best case scenario would be that the field's powersource is buried under the field itself and thus inaccessible to the drones until they've taken out the defenders and completed their objectives anyway. Though why a mere training field would have such a fortified system instead of an easily maintained one, I have no idea. Even in this case...

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Besides, hiding in that building isn't exactly a whole lot of cover either.
Except that it will still be there once the power goes down. Another thing, how do you think they'll hide in the holofield anyway? Scattered in tiny groups all over the field? No, they would put all the noncombatants in one place, then put the combatants on the perimeter to protect them. That's exactly what they did in the end, so why complicate things by using the holofield instead?

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It creates what seems to be pseudomatter buildings instead of being a glowing forcefield. Even a full shaft AMF on the Cradle fails to dissolve Barrier Jackets and Rein. Thus, AMF might do nothing or very little on the buildings.
There's no way the holofield can create pseudomatter like the Barrier Jackets on the scale it does. If the TSAB had access to that kind of technology, they'd have the ability to spontaneously add extensions to their structures and vehicles as needed. Ships can just generate extra guns and armor, so can buildings. If that were possible, RF6's base could just generate extra armor to protect the building once it came under attack. No need to hide in the holofield.
Besides, aren't you the one who keeps saying the BJs offer no protection against actual attacks? If AMFs can't take out the psedomatter buildings fast enough, then they'll have Otto pound it until it falls. Well yes, I'm sure Shamal and Zafira will be protecting the place. But that's no different from what actually happened, so why hide in the holofield?
Rather, the field is more likely a sophisticated version of an illusion spell. One that can stand up to more pounding than Teana's, but still only an illusion. That's not going to last long against an AMF.

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Might have happened had they ENGAGED Wendi and Novu instead of disengaging to deliver weapons to Nanoha
Had they engaged Wendi and Nove, they risk being defeated and where would Nanoha, Fate, Hayate and Signum be then? They needed the extra firepower and getting their devices to them were a higher priority than tangling with the cyborgs. What can you say to convince them otherwise?
Even if they could prevail over the Cyborgs, they'd be delayed in their primary mission, deliver the devices. Do you think they would consider that wise, when they had no idea those Cyborgs would gang up on Ginga afterwards?

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If they did everything I say, there's no reason they can't convince me to at least say "They did their best."
Excuse me if I think that you wouldn't be impressed by "their best" if you actually saw it on screen. And when you're not impressed, you tend to pound on the thing rather hard.

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Not really so important an objective.
That's why it's a bonus!

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They had some warning there.
I assume you mean they had enough warning to teleport Vivio out of there if they could. Here's hoping that Jail didn't send an anti-teleport barrier.
But like I said, I can't see anyone in RF6 thinking that Vivio would need that kind of protection until the attack actually hit. So it's highly unlikely to be implemented.

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Maybe he's trying to obtain some critical mass before he makes his announcement.
And if those Cyborgs had come in to sweep away the drones on the day of the attack, that could have tipped the scales. But Jail wasn't dancing to his tune by then.
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Old 2008-12-13, 12:40   Link #1688
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
However they function, I simply can't imagine them allowing any magical energy flow above what the limit under any circumstances. As I said before, that seems to be such a blantant loophole, it shouldn't be allowed to exist.
I think one of the reasons for the limiters was to prolong a mage's life too. Fighting at constant max power is particularly taxing on the mage. In Nanoha's case she's literally killing herself when she uses her high-level magics.

Limiting their magical power to a lower level reduces the effects or chances of sustaining too much magical strain.
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Old 2008-12-13, 12:48   Link #1689
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by Krisslanza View Post
I think one of the reasons for the limiters was to prolong a mage's life too.Limiting their magical power to a lower level reduces the effects or chances of sustaining too much magical strain.
But such self-imposed limiters would allow the wear to remove them herself. That isn't the case with the limiters that the Aces are currently wearing.
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Old 2008-12-13, 12:50   Link #1690
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
But such self-imposed limiters would allow the wear to remove them herself. That isn't the case with the limiters that the Aces are currently wearing.
Ah well yes that part of the limiters is the bureaucratic side of it all. Politics suck, etc. etc.
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Old 2008-12-13, 12:54   Link #1691
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It does bring up the notion of a limiter being installed for health reasons. Say after StS Nanoha has no need for a limiter after but still has one primarily for her health. I can't say it well but it would be like a guardian of a young mage installing one onto their charge for their own well-being.

Hmm interesting idea.
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Old 2008-12-13, 12:59   Link #1692
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Tormenk View Post
It does bring up the notion of a limiter being installed for health reasons. Say after StS Nanoha has no need for a limiter after but still has one primarily for her health. I can't say it well but it would be like a guardian of a young mage installing one onto their charge for their own well-being.

Hmm interesting idea.
As I understand it this was likely the original intention behind them. Or maybe it was the political side but this is certainly a very good use for them as well.

Had Nanoha had one when she was younger she probably wouldn't have gotten injured during that particular incident.
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Old 2008-12-13, 13:59   Link #1693
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In strikers the limiters was only placed on the aces, so they were able to have so many aces in RF6. The limiter itself has nothing to do about the health issue.

Beside that, every mage does have a biological limiter in oneself to prevent using more than 80% (?) of max power. At Nanoha's incident, she didn't go over this limit. She was just tired from using too much beamspamming. Going over this biological limiter it will do more than only tiredness.
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Old 2008-12-13, 21:06   Link #1694
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Come on, you know the last thing Regius wants is to have HQ's forces looking over his shoulders while his Master Plan is going into action. He'd make sure to throw up as many roadblocks as possible and probably did.
On the other hand, a good way to make HQ lose their guard is to play cooperative.

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His original idea was that probably the Cyborgs would swoop in to save the day, that's probably what Jail told him. Unfortunately, Jail didn't tell him about his real plans.
Isn't it amazing? Given a blank space, you automatically put in something good for our heroines and something bad for Regius.

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Do remember that they had no idea where the threat was going to emerge from or how it would develop. As a result, I'm sure they felt it was prudent to have someone inside the building as well. Given what they did and didn't know (and not what you know from watching the show) what would be a convincing argument for RF6 not to have anyone inside the building at all?
The fact that in case of incident, without knowing all the details, the guys inside's first move is NOT to find out whether there is someone inside "slaughtering everyone" like you suggest, but running out to get their weapons is a clue.

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What if the attack involved sealing off the building from the outside then slaugthering everyone inside?
If the attack involved sealing off the building from the outside, they would be in a better position to blast back in if they started out with their weapons. Without them, they are setting themselves up to be part of those slaughtered inside.

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They don't know that isn't the case, so they need someone inside. Since anyone inside will be without their devices, should they send the Forwards who would really be useless without their devices, or the veterans who can do some magic without their devices?
There's a point there, but I can also say a choice between sending someone who won't be a big capability loss if they got killed without their devics, and someone who is.

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Do you have any idea what kind of bureaucracy you're talking about here? That rule has probably been around since GFHQ's establishment 75 years ago. Those kinds of rules don't get changed or compromised overnight, especially when the person who has to approve the changes (Regius) has decided that the person asking for the changes (Hayate or her supporters) is public enemy number one.
So, according to you, the answer is No.

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It's the rules, military personnel are conditioned to obey first and question later, right? Just now, you said Bureau officers are too incompetent to be given initiative, now, you want them to challenge a clear rule laid down by their superiors, one that probably involves issues well above their rank? Make up your mind!
And last round YOU were the pro-initiative one! The initiative to ask questions and push for the best answer is very different and much safer than the initiative to act. If I suggested they just try and sneak their devices into the building, your challenge might be more relevant.

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But is it enough to allow Carim to release the limiter? I think it's just a bit more complicated than a vocal "approved" signal. Might include sending something similiar to the digital certificates we use online. It might or might not get through the interference. Given Jail's attention to detail in his attacks that day, you shouldn't assume things will turn out for the best for our heroes just for your benefit.
OK, let's agree that if such a thing happened, I will limit my complaints to the TSAB's lack of competence in the Electronic Warfare area

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So now you think an A-rank Hayate can put up a fight? Haven't you been arguing that the Aces, even without limiters, aren't all that impressive?
Some. I said they weren't impressive as to their results, not that they are completely useless. Unless the authors decide to use this opportunity to prove what they wrote in the manga (actually will write, since IIRC Ep17 was before the manga).

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And if RF6 can throw in Hayate, Jail can have Lutecia throw in a few Jirai-ohs. Those should be able to soak up any attacks that an A-rank Hayate can dish out.
That's why many people are so pissed at Ep16-17. We are not really pissed because they lost. As you are demonstrating here, even with an optimal deployment that even a professional veteran could find no holes in, it is easy for the author to jack up the difficulty until they lose. Heck, if you have no imagination you can just pour on the numbers. But they aren't doing so many things that they should be, that it now all looks very contrived and all of the TSAB looks very very incompetent. That shattered the Literary SoD.

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There's another matter, I thought that being unable to release the limiter would be enough so I dropped it the first time. If you think Hayate would be useful at the RF6, wouldn't Hayate think she would be even more useful at GFHQ? With all the indicators they saw, they decided GFHQ was the primary target, so she decided to go along to provide extra firepower if neccessary. What are you going to say to her to convince her to stay and protect their base, contrary to the prophecy that they knew? Besides, Jail's shown no interest in their base before. How were they supposed to know it needed that level of protection?
If she was actually moving to defend GFHQ, this would have been an argument.

Besides, all I'll have to say is that Hayate's abilities are not really that suited for clearing out enemies in a confined space, so she might as well stay at the base, where she can defend it over relatively open ground.

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Due to the fact that they hardly bothered to show Arf at all, we have no way of knowing if that didn't in fact happen.
Well, then all I can say is poor Arf. Fortunately, as far as can be seen, it didn't happen.

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Arf cut down her energy intake to let Fate have more to fight with when she grew up. It's probably at a level that wouldn't inconvinience an AA-ranked Fate. So no need to change anything there.
Yes, but suppose that before the limiter, it was 1% of S+ (say big Arf uses 5%). When you shaft to AA, if it is as dependent as you say, suddenly it is 1% of AA. Won't Arf feel this?

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There's another matter, if Fate could send her excess energy to Arf, why hadn't she done so already? Why is Arf still in chibi-form at the end of the series? Perhaps you want to say she's really dumb. But with the way you keep telling me to stick to what's probable at least, isn't it more probable that she can't send that excess to Arf?
Possibly because she didn't even think to try to use Arf in some fashion. Given that, she would want the energy to be kept to herself.

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We also don't know if a master can change the energy flow to the familiar on-the-fly. If that's not possible, then Fate risks not being able to access that huge flow she assigned to Arf when her limiter is released. Do you think it's wise of her to take that chance?
In fact, I ASSUME they can't change the percentage "on the fly". However, that's not a huge loss. Most often, what they needed was not a slightly stronger Fate, so much as another guy in the front.

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I don't know where you got that impression. But only once in ep11 did either of them even contemplate releasing her limiter to deal with a situation. And it was only for the final battle that everyone's limiters were released. So where did you get the impression that they casually snap off their limiters when they feel like it?
Or did you remember how we were only told that Nanoha had her limiter released after she blocked Dieci's attack in Ep12? Or how Fate apparently got her powers back in time to fight Tre and Sette? Or how all of a sudden Zest detects power signatures? All without a visible authentication process?

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The thing is, you're talking about an unrestricted energy output channel for the mage. Who's to say that energy flow is really going to a familiar? What if it's sent to a dummy system that redirects it back to the mage for her use?
By checking her power flows before clamping on the limiter to make sure the flow is really going to a familiar and not to a dummy system?

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Also, what's stopping the mage from reducing the flow to the familar and increasing her own capacity whenever she wants?
Since that hole allows ways to cheat the limiter, I can't see why they would allow it if they implemented limiters in the first place.
I presume that mages don't have the right to just chop the flow whenever they want - that's why a contract exists. Besides, I doubt a lot of guys want to risk killing a familiar they spent time making and growing just for 5 minutes of extra strength unless there is a darn good reason. It isn't a love thing, just a matter of practicality.

And as I've noted above, all this can't possibly be much bigger of a loophole than limiters that are put into the hands of friends, and set to release on a hair-trigger.

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If Arf really had been at RF6 that day in the series, do you think they would bother to show how much longer they lasted due to her? They'd show an engagement or two, then her going down. And you'd probably say, "smart of Fate to bring Arf in, too bad it didn't do them any good. Now, what can they do to save their base?"
If they can get to the point where I'll say nothing. Then they win. In fact, they don't even have to go that far. They just have to get to the point that my subconscious doesn't go "This is just wrong! They are doing nothing!" and prevent the conscious from being motivated to actually audit the whole episode in detail. It is very difficult for an author to refine to the point where even demi-competent experts in a field will say there is nothing wrong after a conscious audit, but most can get to the point where our subconscious will keep quiet or even favor a drive to rationalize away small apparent errors.

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One that's based on magic, that would be disrupted if not rendered completely ineffective by the AMF.
And most of the time, while AMFing they weren't attacking. The holoweapons are not there so much to defeat them. But by constantly making them and attacking, they force Otto and Deed to stop processing the holowalls and process them as targets.

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And if our defenders were covering the power distribution systems and the refugees cowering in the holofield, they're spread thin. Defeat in detail time.
Actually, what they should have done is bury the PDS so they can't be easily taken out. As for the refugees, you really don't want the mages to be covering them too closely. The entire idea is to conceal them using the holofield, and if you put the defenders right next to the refugees you restrict the area they are in.

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The best case scenario would be that the field's powersource is buried under the field itself and thus inaccessible to the drones until they've taken out the defenders and completed their objectives anyway. Though why a mere training field would have such a fortified system instead of an easily maintained one, I have no idea. Even in this case...
Because it is a base? And also, you are leaving out the part they would have to FIND the power distribution system first.

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Except that it will still be there once the power goes down. Another thing, how do you think they'll hide in the holofield anyway? Scattered in tiny groups all over the field? No, they would put all the noncombatants in one place, then put the combatants on the perimeter to protect them. That's exactly what they did in the end, so why complicate things by using the holofield instead?
By using the holofield, they greatly expand the area the enemy would have to search even after the defenders are gone. Extra search area in concealment = delay.

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There's no way the holofield can create pseudomatter like the Barrier Jackets on the scale it does. If the TSAB had access to that kind of technology, they'd have the ability to spontaneously add extensions to their structures and vehicles as needed. Ships can just generate extra guns and armor, so can buildings. If that were possible, RF6's base could just generate extra armor to protect the building once it came under attack. No need to hide in the holofield.
Here we run into the problem of having to make the field generators first (expense versus just slapping some concrete together), and the possibility the pseudomatter (at least highly flexible variants suited for rapid fabrication) may not be quite as tough as the best they can do with matter.

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Besides, aren't you the one who keeps saying the BJs offer no protection against actual attacks?
I'm sure I do grant them heat protection, chemical protection, and magical protection. Their lack of physical protection is due to their softness. It is not an inherent property of pseudomatter. See for example the devices.

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If AMFs can't take out the psedomatter buildings fast enough, then they'll have Otto pound it until it falls. Well yes, I'm sure Shamal and Zafira will be protecting the place. But that's no different from what actually happened, so why hide in the holofield?
Yes, and all that pounding takes time. The more area Otto has to pound away before she finds the enemy, the more time they burn up.

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Rather, the field is more likely a sophisticated version of an illusion spell. One that can stand up to more pounding than Teana's, but still only an illusion. That's not going to last long against an AMF.
IIRC, the average illusion doesn't block things, so as soon as you hit them you find out. But you can indeed attack the things the forcefield puts up.

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Had they engaged Wendi and Nove, they risk being defeated and where would Nanoha, Fate, Hayate and Signum be then? They needed the extra firepower and getting their devices to them were a higher priority than tangling with the cyborgs. What can you say to convince them otherwise?
Even if they could prevail over the Cyborgs, they'd be delayed in their primary mission, deliver the devices. Do you think they would consider that wise, when they had no idea those Cyborgs would gang up on Ginga afterwards?
I meant to say, all this that you mentioned in this paragraph could be avoided had the Aces gotten their devices in hand, even if that means deploying externally.

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Excuse me if I think that you wouldn't be impressed by "their best" if you actually saw it on screen. And when you're not impressed, you tend to pound on the thing rather hard.
I go with the flow with most anime. Even in MGLN SS I did that until Ep16-17. It is how they handled it that broke the flow and started all the audits. It is hard to satisfy people once they go for the audits, and that's why you think I pound on the thing rather hard. The point for an author is never to do so badly the flow actually breaks, because after that you'll find it nearly impossible to satisfy even the semi-knowledgable.
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Old 2008-12-13, 22:48   Link #1695
ramlaen
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Location: oregon
so would this be an accurate post strikers list?

* = needs update

Nanoha S+
Yuuno A
Fate S+
Arf *

Hayate SS
Reinforce Zwei A+
Vita AAA+
Signum S-
Agito A+
Shamal AA+
Zafira AA

Subaru AA
Teana AA
Elio AA
Caro A+
Ginga A*
Cinque AA
Nove AAA
Dieci A
Wendi AA

Chrono AAA*
Vice B+
Verossa *

Schach AAA
Sein A
Otto B
Deed AA

Vivio *
Lutecia S

Jail *
Uno A
Tre S+
Quattro B
Sette S

Zest S+
Quint *
Megane *
Due A
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Old 2008-12-13, 23:03   Link #1696
DezoPenguin
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Originally Posted by ramlaen View Post
so would this be an accurate post strikers list?

*snip*
In the A's manga, Chrono is listed as being AAA+ during Fate's exam, so he's that at the very least and probably up into the S-rankings by StrikerS.

Where are you getting figures for the Numbers, incidentally?
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Old 2008-12-13, 23:08   Link #1697
ramlaen
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nanohawiki
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Old 2008-12-13, 23:36   Link #1698
DezoPenguin
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Originally Posted by ramlaen View Post
nanohawiki
Well, if they're accurate, it just makes Fate's victory in ep. 24 all the more incredible. OHKO on an S-rank, kicking the ass of an S+, and Jail, all in a 3-on-1 fight under AMF conditions that inhibit her but not her opponents.
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Old 2008-12-14, 01:09   Link #1699
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The fact that in case of incident, without knowing all the details, the guys inside's first move is NOT to find out whether there is someone inside "slaughtering everyone" like you suggest, but running out to get their weapons is a clue.
In the case of what did happen, the building was not sealed, so getting extra firepower was an option. That being the case, should they charge at the enemy (that weren't in the building yet as far as they could see) with limited power or retrieve their heavy guns first?

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If the attack involved sealing off the building from the outside, they would be in a better position to blast back in if they started out with their weapons.
That would be assuming they'd have the opportunity to do so. What if they don't?

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Without them, they are setting themselves up to be part of those slaughtered inside.
And like I said, they'd have a better chance than the Forwards without their devices.

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but I can also say a choice between sending someone who won't be a big capability loss if they got killed without their devics, and someone who is.
Can you clarify? I have no idea what you're trying to say here. So I have no idea how to respond.

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So, according to you, the answer is No.
If by "No" you mean, "The rules won't get changed" that is correct.

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YOU were the pro-initiative one! The initiative to ask questions and push for the best answer is very different and much safer than the initiative to act.
I'd think that Hayate and co. had more important things to do than push for changes to GFHQ's operational protocols. They've been working on the Relics case since formation. By the time they got involved in the GFHQ conference, there's simply no time to ask for changes to GFHQ's rules, let alone get them implemented. To ask for special treatment like the two-man rule isn't going to cut it with Regius either.

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Besides, all I'll have to say is that Hayate's abilities are not really that suited for clearing out enemies in a confined space, so she might as well stay at the base, where she can defend it over relatively open ground.
I don't think Hayate has any useful attack spells at A-rank. Here's hoping that she has at least a gattling blaster to quickly mow down drones.
There's one other thing to consider. Whether at the base or GFHQ, Hayate would almost certainly be fighting at A-rank. If Carim released her limiter, there's no way she or Chrono would be able to get their release permissions renewed in time for the final battle.

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Yes, but suppose that before the limiter, it was 1% of S+ (say big Arf uses 5%). When you shaft to AA, if it is as dependent as you say, suddenly it is 1% of AA. Won't Arf feel this?
Do note that we never saw Fate at the time she got the limiter installed. Nor did we see Fate adjusting the energy flow to Arf to accommodate the limiter. Therefore, even if Arf did feel anything, it was months ago by the time we saw her again in ep20+. Do you expect to see her still feeling it by then?

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Possibly because she didn't even think to try to use Arf in some fashion.
Given that it's probably been years since she needed Arf to do any fighting, that doesn't come as a surprise.

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Most often, what they needed was not a slightly stronger Fate, so much as another guy in the front.
"Another guy in front" would be one more person on their power allocations. They're already maxed out with the limiter-installed commanders and newbie Forwards. They already have everyone they can get.

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By checking her power flows before clamping on the limiter to make sure the flow is really going to a familiar and not to a dummy system?
Would a checker sophisticated enough to tell the difference be practical enough to include with the limiter? Considering the way they treat these things, I maintain it's more likely that limiters impose a blanket clamp on all energy output. KISS principle.

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And as I've noted above, all this can't possibly be much bigger of a loophole than limiters that are put into the hands of friends, and set to release on a hair-trigger.
If it was such a hair-trigger, they'd use it in every battle. Then it'd really be a joke. And if you looked at it, everyone's limiters got released once (tops) before the final battle. Not that much of a joke, I'd say.

Next, we move on to the holofield.

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Because it is a base? And also, you are leaving out the part they would have to FIND the power distribution system first.
If they abandon the base to flee to the holofield, they give Jail's forces all the time they need to find the PDS. Unless it was buried under the field.
Even if it were, I realised that there's another matter you need to address. The holofield is seperated from the other base buildings by a lot of open ground. To reach it, they'd have to get everyone out of buildings that already provide decent cover, dash across unprotected terrain, slow down at stairs before running into the field, in the middle of a battle! Most of the personnel will be easily picked off at the stairs bottleneck. Still think the field will buy you extra time? Or will it just get everyone shot faster?
Then, what happens to the people inside the field in the event of an unplanned shutdown, like the PDS being destroyed for example. Will the people above ground level fall to their deaths? What about those below ground level?

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all this that you mentioned in this paragraph could be avoided had the Aces gotten their devices in hand, even if that means deploying externally.
And I've stated my arguments for why that wasn't done. So, do you have another way to save Ginga?
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Old 2008-12-14, 01:13   Link #1700
ramlaen
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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Well, if they're accurate, it just makes Fate's victory in ep. 24 all the more incredible. OHKO on an S-rank, kicking the ass of an S+, and Jail, all in a 3-on-1 fight under AMF conditions that inhibit her but not her opponents.
well that is also keeping in mind sonic form + that jail is probably not actually that strong outside of that glove device of his
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