AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-12-16, 09:47   Link #1761
Comartemis
He Who Smites Shippers
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 27
Quote:
I'm sure the plans for RF6's base and defense systems are filed away somewhere in the TSAB's bureaucracy. Unless there's some reason for it to be classified higher than the usual TSAB bases, it wouldn't be too hard for Jail's backers in the Bureau to get their hands on them and pass them to him.
He doesn't even need that, Uno can get it for him with her Flawless Secretary IS.
__________________

Kill the Darkfic.
Burn the Angst.
Purge the Bad End.
Comartemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 11:04   Link #1762
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
You're the only one who's auditing. I'd say they did pretty well, otherwise I wouldn't be able to hold out against your arguments here for so long.
As I said, the audit only came about because of excess in Ep16-17. And the final outcome remains to be seen, Defense Attorney

Quote:
"The others" have more rapid attack spells. They can keep shooting regardless.
But not with as much power as even an A. Remember that in our currrent deployment, after Shamal and Zafira, it was Vice, B, and from there it is down to pretty much nothing. Besides, you are STILL assuming she won't get the release.

Quote:
You're splitting hairs here, and I recall that Sargeants are "non-commissioned officers" aren't they? The point is, she's GF personnel, Arf at this time is "retired". Had she actually been a GF trooper, what makes you think she'd be assigned to a unit "near" RF6 anyway?
Yes, but they are still enlisted - you are just blubbering like me. But fine, to the Essence of the Issue, Special arrangements - they do have the HQ and all on their side - it can't be hard to smuggle one person in as a routine transfer? And if that hadn't been possible, there's still the civvie idea. She can live in Hayate's house in Kurnagan, seeing they aren't using it much while they are doing RF6 work anyway, and she can do odd jobs that Fate and Nanoha may not be able to do because of their officer status and responsibilities.

Quote:
I don't get how changing the energy allocation as stipulated on the contract from a percentage to an actual number is increasing complexity. I want to be clear that I mean the contract is in terms of "master supplies x units of energy to familiar" instead of "master supplies x% of her energy to familiar" all along. Therefore, changing the allocation just means setting a new number. And for the record, creating a familiar is complex, which is why mages rarely use it if there's a better alternative to getting what they want done.
Actually, a supply of x% to familiar can be handled by a simple, faucet like (allegory) device to divert a percentage of flow. Even if there were a brief shortfall or surge, the familiar has energy reserves to cushion, so regulation is un-necessary. However, a supply of y to familiar requires a regulator to maintain the same flow no matter what the actual flow is.

Well, I suppose it isn't a whole lot of complexity, but it is an un-necessary complication.

And wouldn't the value of a familiar mean that maybe we should be ensuring that their flow is untouched by any limiters - they could easily have equal or even better combat coefficient to their shafted Master?

Quote:
Given how easily she swatted them once she got serious in ep24, yes.
Did you miss the entire part where she was clearly losing, lost completely as Jail moved in, got trapped, survived only because Jail decided to be a villain rather than to be efficient and an encouragement scene frankly too lame to be really moving, finally turned on her Last Drive ... OK, she did win but she had so little power left Erio had to save her butt in the end ... are you sure she didn't need help?

Quote:
Like I said, few mages use limiters, fewer still have familiars. You want to insist that every high-ranking mage get a familiar whether they want to or not?
Not necessarily. There are the rights of the mage to consider. However, if they already have one, there's no reason not to make full use of it.

Quote:
With you it's sometimes hard to tell, given your insistence on exact numbers whenever possible. You seem certain that it's possible to distinguish the LC output to the familiar and that it's possible to wrap the limiter over everything but that output, I'm not convinced.
It is just where you put the crimpers. So far, any extra complexity will seem due to paranoia of cheating on the part of the TSAB.

Quote:
Unfortunately, it takes even longer to wait for everyone to assemble. Then, since everyone is moving at the same pace, the trip will take longer than everyone making for the field at their best speed. Worse, they'll all be bunched at the stairs now as they slowly make their way down. Then, do they wait until everyone's down and clustered again before going into the field? All that will take longer than the 10 minutes you said they lasted against Jail's forces.
That would just be until the last guy shows up, so it won't be slower than the last guy naturally running out. The convoy might be a bit slower (a disadvantage of all convoys) but much easier to protect.

And aren't you trying to ask for more total combat time? That will make this fraction a lot less significant. They may even have a chance to walk there.

Quote:
Except that, now that everyone is in the open, all the drones can concentrate their attacks to overwhelm Shamal, Zafira and VIce. Otto, Deed, Lutecia and Garyuu can join in the fun too.
Otto and Deed didn't even show up except to mpop up.

Quote:
Weren't you the one who said sound the evac when Otto and Deed show up? If they didn't show up until the attack was well underway, wouldn't it be too late to evac already? And just because we did see them earlier, doesn't mean they weren't there earlier to take advantage of just such a move.
I meant when they detected those two blips on the radar. However, it was undeniable that instead of attacking immediately, Otto and Deed were apparently very passive for minutes - were they even visible?

Quote:
Sprinting and assembling to head for the field are mutually exclusive. I showed what happens when everyone sprints for the field as best the can when the alarm sounds in the previous post. Then, I showed what happens when they choose to assemble first instead above.
So protect them.

Quote:
Like I said, what if the "ground floor" of the building you're in is in reality a bit below the surface of the field? What happens when the field dies suddenly?
Is it even possible for the basement to be BELOW the surface of the field? Wouldn't it be more logical for say BF4 to be touching the bottom, BF3 to be above, and so on?

Quote:
If that was what you were using as evidence for the duration of the attack, it doesn't say a thing about how long Shamal and Zafira lasted. Got anything better? Else I have to insist, we don't know how long they lasted against Jail's forces.
They were attacked only after the HQ, and before the attack on HQ was over they were crushed.

Quote:
Just because they got 50 million credits (for example) to build the field, doesn't mean they get an additional 200 mil to wrap a defensive fortress around it. The field occupies much more area than the base. Spending on all kinds of projects would increase dramatically if it were that easy to get extra funds. On the other hand, they might have an extra 10mil to build an armored shelter under their building. That does appear to be the case.
Why does the field cost only 50 million and a little protection cost 200 million more.

Quote:
It's a training field, why would it need extra security for a simple OFF switch? That's like asking why Trek's holodeck doesn't have password protection or voice verification, etc, on its OFF switch.
How about for prevention of unauthorized access?

Quote:
Who said anything about them knowing that Jail has inside info?
You said one of the reasons why this won't work is because Jail might have inside info. But for that to be a factor in their thinking, they have to know this.

Quote:
I'm sure the plans for RF6's base and defense systems are filed away somewhere in the TSAB's bureaucracy. Unless there's some reason for it to be classified higher than the usual TSAB bases, it wouldn't be too hard for Jail's backers in the Bureau to get their hands on them and pass them to him.
Jail has Regius as a half-friend, but seeing he didn't even know about RF6 until Ep12 he probably doesn't have the plans. The HQ is Hayate's friends. So, backers?

Quote:
Yes you did. Everyone else considers damage to the concrete to be for dramatic purposes. You're the only one who insists that it means Mid concrete is weak.
I meant it isn't harder than it is to destroy than the real thing. And saying it is weaker doesn't mean I said it was Styrofoam, did I?

And do you think I'm right to say that, had the example been one where Midchildran materials show their super strength, and I dismiss it for "dramatic" reasons, I will be beaten up by a gang?

Quote:
Concealment that can instantly disappear at the push of a button or when the power's cut. And the entire field is a lot of ground to cover, where will Shamal and Zafira be defending? The whole place? That's larger than RF6's base proper, they'll probably fall even faster trying to hold such a large area. And if they only hold a small area within the field, it tell their enemies where everyone is.
Step 1. Have them cover a pseudobuilding that plausibly looks like where they are making their stand.
Step 2. The non-combatants are not hiding there, of course.
Step 3: If they lose, presumably enemies search (or bombard the pseudobuilding trusting in Vivio's Sankt Kaiser's Armor). It is not there.
Step 4: They waste time searching, blasting.

Quote:
There's a HUGE difference better pumping out a bit of pseudomatter to make a BJ for a mage and "a bit" of pseudomatter enough to make a few city blocks. If the TSAB had that kind of technology, they don't need to make physical buildings anymore. Just get a piece of land, a generator and presto! A mansion, or a multistorey office block, or a stadium, anything you need, whenever you need it! RF6 could have used one to build its base and transform it into a fortress when it came under attack. In addition, any damage could be instantly repaired after the battle.
There's obviously the small problem of the cost of such generators (which might be more than just building it out of foundation and Midcrete), or supplying the required power to civilian facilities (for at least the initial construction), and you'll still have to install them before you can have your stadium.

But we hadn't seen much of Mid construction techniques. So who knows, maybe they already are using pseudomatter. Imagine this. A foundation that's the only real material, with these field generators studded in it. After the foundation is set, it is connected to the citywide magipower net and the field generators assemble mana to form pseudomatter - maybe not as fast as the military generators but it still happens. That will make Mid buildings quite easy to repair from minor damage, but is hardly a panacea - if the foundation is damaged from serious damage the building would find it hard to autorecover, which may explain why RF6 didn't just reconnect power, push a button and restore all functionality.

As for your fortress idea, RF6 should have considered doing that to start regardless of whether the field is "more sophisticated forcefields than we've seen" or pseudomatter. That way, while under attack, they can hide and control everything inside (and if they are actively controlling the field inside, it also reduces the chances of a hacker being able to just "turn off" the field. Even if the power gets cut in the end and the forcefields die, or it turns out pseudomatter does collapse rapidly upon power-out, well then they still got the base itself, and a few minutes gained.

FieldFieldField
FieldRF6Field
FieldFieldField

Quote:
Trek uses forcefields, I don't see why the Bureau can't do the same. It'd be different from the usual combat forcefields but I'm sure they can manage.
Wow, so instead of appealing to at least known techniques that produces the observed, you appeal to the unknown? And just because Trek could do it doesn't mean Midchildra can, and vice versa (for example, as far as I know, the UFP has not yet perfected the art of interdimensional travel, though they did manage to go into "fluidic space" once.)

Quote:
epends on where and how many binds you wrap on the person. Also, remember how Nanoha held Tia after she blasted her in ep9? Something similar but able to change its resistance to movement dynamically would be quite satisfactory for the purpose.
Yes, it'll have to do it in such a way that the "player" feels nothing un-natural about it. Sounds like a real challenge.

Quote:
It may sound complicated, but it's more plausible than large-scale pseudomatter generation based on what's shown in the series.
Since you've already admitted to the cons, it is hard to see what else I can say about this.

Quote:
She was back with the 108th, get it through your head! Should they think she wouldn't have concentration of force or buddy tactics with her unit?
Rechecked the episode. On that day, they clearly were working together, or else Rein won't be asking where is Ginga, and she was apparently out to give a report.

Quote:
Yet, the way you calculate all these power values, distances and concrete strengths, you act as if you're assuming the visual data is 100% accurate and usable. That seems to be the only way we can consider your numbers to be in any way accurate.
If I believe the data to be unusable, I wouldn't have started to calculate it, would I? It is the information offered by 7Arcs, the only information we'll ever have on a particular event, and there is generally no specific reason to believe it is inaccurate. There is of course a chance for any parituclar piece of data to be inaccurate, but if you fear that analysis gets nowhere, so without specific reasons the analysis starts.

Besides, if you really look close, you'll notice I analyze a lot of scenes suggested by other people. In my book, they suggest a scene for visual analysis, or bring up elements of observation from the scene, they are agreeing, even asserting, the scene is analyzable. So it is not even me that first proposed analyzing that scene. Given this, I find it a little hypocritical to inverse and start attacking the whole bit about analysis when the test reports come back bad. And frankly, this time's report wasn't even all that bad. It was pretty good. The fact it can't be as laudatory as some clearly wanted it to be is ...
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 11:33   Link #1763
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Good evening, Lawyer. Then what does one say about Keroko, who proposed this in the first place, then refused to fully substantiate his opinion?
Why don't you tell me, mighty professor? Besides, this smacks of the whole IBA/Dragon Skin controversy a few years back; Natick was running a competition for the US Army's standard issue body armor, between IBA and Dragon Skin: the person who was in charge of the competion was the IBA project manager.

Besides, the burden of proof is on you in this case.

Hey, if you can pick and choose which shows to SoD, I can pick and choose who to go after.

Quote:
Acknowledging your own limitations is a primary requirement of intellectual honesty.
Like I said, I find it ironically hilarious that after all the calculations that you've thrown out, and all the pimping of your calcluations - "I have calculated it like this, so this is correct and all you are wrong!" - you then admit that math isn't your strength. *laughs* And I believe we can all make our judgements from your belated acknowledgement of your limitations

Quote:
I see a lot of badly substantiated assertions here. As for your last point, please phone me when an anime actually admits it is crummily drawn by flashing "Characters and Scenes not to Scale"?
And to repeat Lowe's challenge, which you've ignored, call us when you find an anime where it's animated exactly according to reality.

Quote:
For such supposed tolerance to different solutions and approaches, my answer and approach is sure getting attacked very hard, even without substantive detected errors.
No, it's just that we're tired of you SoDomising the same dead loli again and again.

Get this into your head ark: nobody else takes this shit as seriously as you do. I passed on your calcs to an engineer friend of mine. His response to me: "You anime nerds take this shit too seriously."

Quote:
I find it amazing you know better than me how I enjoy myself. Also, did I not mention that I watch other anime more or less normally?
You mentioned that you watched other anime normally because you were too lazy to practice SoD for everything.

Quote:
As for why MGLN, I think b/w my critics here you guys have hit the big reasons. It is actually relatively organized and thus analyzable. It has a population (and a SoDer knows that bouncing ideas off others is important), with a substantial fraction interested in discussing the mechanics of their world. And my laziness got molten thanks to Ep16-17 (like a lot of other people's). So, why not?
Well if you're going to SoD, go all the way and SoD everything, ark. You're being a hypocrite by SoDing the easy stuff. If SoD is truly what you believe in, then live it to the max! Don't be a half-assed SoDer, be a full-assed one! Balls to the wall, pedal to the metal: let the anime be drowned in the spirit of SoD! Yosh, let the fires of your SoD display your youth!

Okay, that was a bit much, but I'm feeling a sense of whimsy today. Promotion made official, I am now my department's assistant manager... hmmm, i probably pwn most of AS and the Nano boards in terms of job

Quote:
Yet it is the data we have. So when we analyze, we use it for every last drop it is worth.
You do realise that Teana suffers from Variable Bust Syndrome? Her bust size keeps expanding and shortening each episode; the animators never really made up their minds how big her tits were.

Quote:
So protect them.
... in the real world, protecting a large number of people making a mad dash across a field is already hard enough. You're now wanting to leave a building that's solid protection and provides means of defense and restricting enemy acess for running out in the open?

I posed this question to a couple of my friends in the military. The response was that you'd be an idiot to leave a fixed position that you could easily defend for running across a field in view of the enemy.

Do note that despite the damage to the base, Vice and the remaining RF6 grunts had managed to set up a decent defensive position and were stopping the advance. If it weren't for him freezing when he saw Lutecia, he probably could have held out longer.

(I consider his defensive position alright due to the improvised nature, though that's not his fault, he was working with what he had. To be an excellent defensive position, it would need to have claymores, mines, barbed wire, sandbags, machine guns, mortars, RPGs, ammo, grenades, more ammo, more machine guns, more ammo (there is no such thing as too much ammo)...a couple of Warthogs with the 3-barreled .50cal gatlings wouldn't hurt either. And a few tanks. And air support. And Cobra gunships. Apache has more firepower but the Cobra has something fierce about it that the Apache lacks. Probably because it's a Marine helo.)
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.


Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-12-16 at 13:24.
Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 11:33   Link #1764
Tempy
Σ(。д(o--(ಠ益ಠ )
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hotsprings Resort
Age: 28
You know what?

Forget it. Forget everything I've ever said. I don't even want to look at this gigantic wall of text you call analysis because it doesn't really apply to me, nor do I actually care about the force behind Subaru's punch based on the analysis of a bloody manga page or whatever the hell you're trying to prove. Maybe Jimmy and Keroko have far more patience than I, but it's clear to me when I see no point in continuing to argue with a person obsessed with implementing modern Earth physics and calculations with an anime powered by magic, beamspam, and bits of the Rule of Cool.

Really, you've killed the fun in it, Arkh.

I don't why I even bothered to post anything regarding this, since obviously I have no idea what I'm talking about. For the longest time I've just stood back and watched you try to prove a ridiculous, flawed, and frankly, silly point, shook my head, then went back to doing things I actually cared about. Then it hit a point where I didn't know what the hell was going on any more. Now, I am going to go back to ignoring this thread.

Peace.
__________________
Tempy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 11:51   Link #1765
Skane
Anime Snark
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 31
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
~ I don't why I even bothered to post anything regarding this, since obviously I have no idea what I'm talking about. For the longest time I've just stood back and watched you try to prove a ridiculous, flawed, and frankly, silly point, shook my head, then went back to doing things I actually cared about. Then it hit a point where I didn't know what the hell was going on any more. Now, I am going to go back to ignoring this thread.

Peace.
From time to time, this thread generates little gems. The trick lies in being able to Zen out the pointless and only participate in the meaningful ones.

Cheers.
__________________
Skane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 11:51   Link #1766
Evil Rick
Black Dragon
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: In the Netherrealm, thinking who to betray next...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
For a bunch of supporters of this position, you guys sure are spending a lot of time on an technnical discussion thread.
Magic and Technology, not Physical Laws

In fact, if you think about it, you'r getting a bit Out off topic
__________________
Evil Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 11:52   Link #1767
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Remends me of something I was reading on Farnam's Quips: there are two kinds of shooter: the Operator and the Gamesman. The Operator attends training courses and learns to shoot primarily to hone his skills, that when duty calls he will be ready. He does not obsess about shooting; it is just a tool for him to accomplish his job. The Gamesman, on the other hand, obsesses over everything: ammo quality, muzzle velocity, penetration power, etc etc: to him, shooting is how he proves himself, how he shows up everyone else. The Operators attend shooting competitions to hone their skills and learn; score and winning is a nonissue to them. To Gamesmen, score and winning is everything.

And something Spencer Chapman wrote in The Jungle is Neutral on the Communist Chinese guerillas: "...More interested in knowing useless details such as the muzzle velocity of a Lewis gun, rather than how to aim and shoot properly..."

At any rate, my piece is done. I go back to worldbuilding and writing my story.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 12:08   Link #1768
PhoenixFlare
The Resurrector
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Came in for a quick reply ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
My results (conclusions) are Absurd? Never mind how I got it for the moment, THIS I'll have to claim complete puzzlement over. OK, fine, the whole "Middie concrete" thing may have understandably offended some sensibilties, however mandated it is.
I believe when Avatar (please correct me if I'm mistaken) said that, he really meant absurd as in meaningless, not offensive. That the results are reasonably unusable in most contexts.

Fine, so Subaru can punch through steel, what does that give us? In most (if not all) fictions, writings are done in relative terms and typically protected by plot control. No authors (at least that I know of) are going to say "Subaru's punch is as strong as a long burst of HMG, grinding through steel like a reckless bulldozer". At most, they're going to say that "she punched through steel easily". Whether it's proven that Subaru can punch through steel through empirical calculations is not going to matter much in the course of story-writing, because that's the plot of the story. Readers can disbelieve it, yes, but that's for them to decide whether to suspend their disbelief. Of course, it'll gladden our heart that we did not do a mistake in our relative comparison, but the proven numbers usually do not matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
This, at least, I can sympathize with. Frankly, I'll have gone on to other pursuits a long time ago, had it not been for the fact that lately, every time I comment on something, it stays at peace and any reasoned discussion tends to last only as long as Keroko doesn't discover it. After that, it inevitably disintegrates into him attacking Observational SoD, me defending, him throwing out a piece of evidence, me slicing it apart, him bawling about if only I didn't disregard this element or that element (of course, he doesn't even try to tell me that before I slice it), and somewhere around here it ends.
Frankly speaking, blaming it entirely on Keroko alone is hardly fair. Inasmuch as arguments go, I don't side with either of you, because both of you're just putting forth your points to get your message across. But, just because Keroko doesn't agree with your points (if he agrees to any at all) doesn't mean that he's solely responsible for causing havoc in the discussion.

You know it as well that the results you show are interpretable as "correct" in your point of view (only, and whoever shares your perception). Keroko was not wrong in including other elements for his observation, which is also "correct" in his point of view.

The trouble with you two is that you work too hard to convince the other you're absolutely right, which spirals into arguments that destabilize reasoned discussions. And personal attacks. And disgruntled feelings.

Really, it'll be so much easier if you just put forth your observations and be done with them and let the readers decide which one they want to believe is correct. Bouncing arguments to and fro is nice and all, but it's costly for the thread if it becomes a war of attrition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As for "premise", see what I had to say about it ... its father is really observation.
I don't really understand why you have to be so persnickety about these tiny details. Sure, if you don't understand what we're pointing at, you do have a right for clarification, that we say premise as observation, to minimize confusion (not that it's that confusing in the first place ...). Since you already understood what we meant, why point it out again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
From time to time, this thread generates little gems. The trick lies in being able to Zen out the pointless and only participate in the meaningful ones.

Cheers.
I raise my glass to the golden truth of your words. Cheers.

Last edited by PhoenixFlare; 2008-12-16 at 12:33.
PhoenixFlare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 13:05   Link #1769
Evangelion Xgouki
NERV Personnel
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tokyo 3, Japan
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Evangelion Xgouki Send a message via MSN to Evangelion Xgouki
This is starting to get a tad out of hand. The earlier debates over the series and tech and stuff was alright. Now you wish to bring in actual scientific equations to try and prove your case? That's going too far. It's not that I mind them being used, but they need to be used correctly. The four equations I was shown are real and do in fact calculate a simple, ideal scenario of an object being thrown into the air. Key words here: simple and ideal. Yes, it involves gravity. But that's it. Those equations are used in basic physics to get an initial understanding on how an object decelerates as it is affected by gravity. If you want to figure out how high an object goes in reality, you need more and bigger equations to factor in air resistance, density, any rotation on the object during its ascent, etc. Doing this on a person makes it even more complex since you then need to worry about a varying center of gravity, constantly changing surface profile, and protrusions on the object that are not fixed relative to the object (i.e. limbs and head). To clarify, by fixed I mean points on the protrusions do not change their spacial coordinates relative to the object/center of gravity. Second, getting measurements off a drawn picture would not fly as a means to draw scientific measurements. Objects, especially objects at distance or seen at angles, are drawn stylized to give the viewer an illusion of distance and perspective. This is similar to optical illusions that use it to trick the human eye. Also camera that are used are commonly positioned facing tangent to the path of travel of the object or normal to the path of travel to avoid having to over-complicate the measurements taken from the images to compensate for the angle of prospective. That's why on actual pictures you will always, always see some type of scale included physically in it or imposed onto it if it is being used for scientific purposes. This way you can know the true scale it is at and convert a measurement taken with, say, a ruler in your hand and then convert it using the scale in the picture to get the (mostly) true measurement. I say mostly because there will always be an estimation of the scaling factor due to not wanting an infinite amount of decimal places. This is why many times you till have a tolerance included in the figures to compensate for this (seen commonly after a +/- ). So basically any so-called 'measurements' taken from an image are invalid without knowing the true scale in which they are drawn (which is why practically every school book has the 'not to scale' disclaimer on images which are not accurate and only drawn as a pictorial representation or example to give a general idea). As an engineer I couldn't let equations be used improperly, especially if they are being used in support of arguments. And the stuff about drawing illusions? Learned that first week of basic drawing class.
__________________
Evangelion Xgouki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 13:31   Link #1770
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
it can't be hard to smuggle one person in as a routine transfer?
And after that what? She can't just up and leave her post because she feels like it.
Then, she'll be close but oh so far away.

Quote:
And if that hadn't been possible, there's still the civvie idea.
As I said before, you still have to convince me that Arf has (or can get) enough magic to make a difference in the battle.

Quote:
Actually, a supply of x% to familiar can be handled by a simple, faucet like (allegory) device to divert a percentage of flow.
It seems to me that you're imagining the output to the familiar as a hole in a balloon, if the balloon is inflated (as the mage gets more powerful) the hole gets bigger. Is that correct?
Nothing wrong with that idea, but that doesn't mean it's right one or the only one. My idea is more like a tank with a fixed flow faucet, it doesn't matter how much water (energy) is in the tank, the faucet releases the same amount to the familiar. Why's that any more difficult?

Quote:
And wouldn't the value of a familiar mean that maybe we should be ensuring that their flow is untouched by any limiters
And I keep saying, is it even possible to leave the flow untouched by the limiter?

If your idea were the case, then the Bureau ought to pick up Arf and assign her someplace. Put that extra energy from Fate to use, as it were. They didn't do that, why? Because they're as dumb as you always claim?

Quote:
are you sure she didn't need help?
Not from Arf anyway. Had she kept her wits, she would have used her Limit Break earlier and had everything wrapped up well before Quattro decided to blow everything to hell. By the time that did happen, she might have recovered enough to dodge the rocks.

Quote:
However, if they already have one, there's no reason not to make full use of it.
If it were possible. I remain unconvinced that an S- dialed down to AA can have an AAA (or so) Familiar.

Quote:
That would just be until the last guy shows up, so it won't be slower than the last guy naturally running out.
Assembly, yes. But remember, no one's moving until that last guy shows up. Else, the first person's already to the stairs by the time the last guy shows up. Assuming he wasn't shot by a drone before he got there.

Quote:
And aren't you trying to ask for more total combat time? That will make this fraction a lot less significant.
I don't see how. The longer they spend in the open, the greater their chances of being completely wiped out. After all, even you want to get them under cover so they can last longer. Do you think they can do that, out in the open between the base and the field?

Quote:
They may even have a chance to walk there.
Do you want them to spend more time in the open than they have to? If they're moving in a cluster, you can be sure the drones are crowding around them, using their AMF to wear down Shamal's shields and shooting (even if a drone can't do both at once, there's enough for a lot to do each), then Otto moves in to smash them. If they walked they wouldn't even make it to the stairs.

Quote:
However, it was undeniable that instead of attacking immediately, Otto and Deed were apparently very passive for minutes - were they even visible?
They'd have to be blind not to see what was going on. If people evacuated the buildings, they'd definitely take some kind of action. Especially when they see Aina carrying Vivio.

Quote:
So protect them.
I've been trying to tell you, that protection won't last long enough.

Quote:
Is it even possible for the basement to be BELOW the surface of the field?
I don't know. And like I said, do you want to find out when the field gets unplugged?

Quote:
They were attacked only after the HQ, and before the attack on HQ was over they were crushed.
That still has no numbers on how long they lasted.

Quote:
Why does the field cost only 50 million and a little protection cost 200 million more.
I did say "wrapping a fortress around it"
And what kind of "little protection" do you want to add to the field? Do remember, it's several city blocks in size. It looks like they didn't simulate space within the field, there really is that much room to move about.

Quote:
How about for prevention of unauthorized access?
To turn off a mere training field? It seems that Uno or Quattro may be able to hack whatever software defenses it may have. Uno with her IS and Quattro with her EW specialty.

Quote:
Jail has Regius as a half-friend, but seeing he didn't even know about RF6 until Ep12 he probably doesn't have the plans.
Ah, but after ep12, both of them are interested in RF6 and there's plenty of time from then until the attack to get the plans and put them to use. There's also the High Council and whoever listens to them. One request from Jail, I'm sure they can accommodate him.

Quote:
And saying it is weaker doesn't mean I said it was Styrofoam, did I?
Plasterboard then. People tell you it doesn't make sense to build buildings out of material that can crumble like that under impact from a person. Instead of dismissing the scene as exaggeration, you come up with reasons why someone would use such pathetic materials. Nevermind that something so weak would collapse under its own weight, let alone that of the people in it.

Quote:
And do you think I'm right to say that, had the example been one where Midchildran materials show their super strength, and I dismiss it for "dramatic" reasons, I will be beaten up by a gang?
Given your tendency to belittle any capability shown by the Bureau and its personnel, I'm sure both would come to pass. It's like you actually enjoy getting beaten. Then you come back kicking until they all shut up because they can't follow your convoluted arguments anymore. Does that please you?
Sometimes I wonder if you think, "the things I go through to enlighten these forumers..." when replying to our responses.

Quote:
Step 1. Have them cover a pseudobuilding that plausibly looks like where they are making their stand.
Step 2. The non-combatants are not hiding there, of course.
Step 3: If they lose, presumably enemies search (or bombard the pseudobuilding trusting in Vivio's Sankt Kaiser's Armor). It is not there.
Step 4: They waste time searching, blasting.
This is only possible if they can make it into the field without being tracked by Jail's forces. Remember how we talked about them coming under attack while making their way to the field? They have more drones than there are people in the base, they can follow everyone to their hiding spots, if they didn't shot them before they reached it. And like I said, game's over once Aina brings Vivio out. They'll throw everything they have at her, no defense by Shamal and Zafira at this point will last the 10 minutes you said they did in the episode (and they might have lasted longer than that too)

Quote:
But we hadn't seen much of Mid construction techniques. So who knows, maybe they already are using pseudomatter.
if the foundation is damaged from serious damage the building would find it hard to autorecover, which may explain why RF6 didn't just reconnect power, push a button and restore all functionality.
If the damage was that bad, they'd have to turn off the building, fix the foundation, then turn on the building again. That is, if they used such construction techniques. They didn't do that.

Quote:
As for your fortress idea, RF6 should have considered doing that to start
That way, while under attack, they can hide and control everything inside
That's assuming the idea's even possible, which I strongly doubt.
Tell me something, between a forcefield capable of standing up to heavy magic assaults and an illusion which do you think they would choose? Which would probably last much longer?

Quote:
Wow, so instead of appealing to at least known techniques that produces the observed, you appeal to the unknown?
You're doing the same with your insistance that wide-scale pseudomatter generation is possible.

Quote:
Yes, it'll have to do it in such a way that the "player" feels nothing un-natural about it. Sounds like a real challenge.
Not a big problem with sophisticated computers. We've actually passed that point now that physics accelerators are available for desktops. In case you don't know, these are auxilary processing boards for calculating physical effects like things being hit and breaking apart in detail. Considering Mid's advanced computing technology, I'm sure they can do lots better.

Quote:
Since you've already admitted to the cons, it is hard to see what else I can say about this.
Complicated doesn't mean impossible or slow. Take a look inside modern processor architecture, that's complicated, but it's damn fast when you're running a game.

Quote:
On that day, they clearly were working together, or else Rein won't be asking where is Ginga, and she was apparently out to give a report.
Probably to the 108th. She's one of the links between both units after all. And who would think you'd need two people to give the report?

Quote:
If I believe the data to be unusable, I wouldn't have started to calculate it, would I?
But then you take it as 100% accurate with no margin of error or uncertainly. You're so sure of the answer, you give it to two decimal places. Other people might have plus-minus error ranges instead. And every time you do this, you appear to deliver the results in a very condescending tone, as if because you worked so hard to get your answers, they have to be right. Even the way you say you may be wrong sounds more like, "Let see you make the effort to find out if I was wrong"
Since they can't be bothered to analyze the scene in as much detail as you, they take it with a grain of salt, wave it off as overanalyzing or decide you're skewing things in your favor. Surely you weren't expecting them to cheer for you for debunking their claims. Especially since you're not even doing it in a fun way like Mythbusters, for example.
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 13:52   Link #1771
Avatar_notADV
Once and Current Subber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Well, the other problem I have is that you guys have developed the terrible habit of Fisking -every post each other makes-. Tearing apart each other's arguments line by line might have a visceral appeal, but it isn't any good to read.

Anyway, ironically, some of the discussion about Subaru taking on Gadgets hand-to-hand was perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with observing "hey, if a girl can jump on one of them and hold it down, it's probably not too heavy!" That's a good kind of observation. Personally, though, I'd stop at trying to calculate the exact punching strength of a character who we know, through plot device, can punch through essentially anything. Ah, Subaru... <3

If you're talking about history, well, you also have to take a lot of that with a grain of salt. Herodotus was the father of modern history, compiling the first "book of history" that survived to the modern day, actually attempting to compile events as were related to him. But a significant number of the events in his book are, well, complete bull. They'd have to be - unless you believe that BC armies had the trick of logistics to support armies of hundreds of thousands of men, which they didn't. ;p You've got to pick through the material and choose the pieces which are supported elsewhere, the pieces which are supported elsewhere but are obviously bull, the pieces which aren't supported elsewhere but are plausible... you get the idea, right?

Examining anime is the same way. While the animators ought to take things like perspective into consideration, and make a world that resembles the real world, they're under no particular obligation to stick close to real-world physics in any particular scene. Hm, another analogy... take Love Hina. (Please!) You could measure Keitaro's ballistic trajectory and come up with a good estimate of Naru's maximum punching strength, sure. And then you could conclude that they're both some kind of mutant superhuman or something (Naru, for being able to launch ronin into low orbit, and Keitaro for not dying from it). But they're not, and if you were measuring it as if it were serious, you'd be missing the point badly; even though the scene is depicted, the viewer isn't intended to take it literally.

Nanoha's serious enough that a technology/magic thread isn't totally stupid. But it's not so serious that every scene is to be taken literally. There's a continuum of objective depictions of reality, and Nanoha's somewhere in between Love Hina and actual film.
__________________
Latest project: Kannagi
Avatar_notADV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 14:00   Link #1772
AdmiralTigerclaw
Sword Wielding Penguin
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Subspace, Texas
Age: 29
Send a message via AIM to AdmiralTigerclaw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Well, the other problem I have is that you guys have developed the terrible habit of Fisking -every post each other makes-. Tearing apart each other's arguments line by line might have a visceral appeal, but it isn't any good to read.
I found a terminology for this on another site.

It's called "Quote Omnislashing."
__________________
"Escalating a war is not how I envisioned this vacation..."
Ernest 'Admiral Tigerclaw' Hart
OWNER: Samurai Penguin Studios
"Because people dig birds with swords."
AdmiralTigerclaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 14:24   Link #1773
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
An interesting tidbit i found out...

Crime scene investigation takes lots of photos, but relies on sketches for accurate measurements, due to how photos throw things off.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 14:36   Link #1774
Evangelion Xgouki
NERV Personnel
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tokyo 3, Japan
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Evangelion Xgouki Send a message via MSN to Evangelion Xgouki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
An interesting tidbit i found out...

Crime scene investigation takes lots of photos, but relies on sketches for accurate measurements, due to how photos throw things off.
Interesting. Though that makes some sense. Taking a picture or an object on a crime scene, you'll have different distances and varying angles from the photographer which can throw off measurements later in the lab. While with a good sketcher, he'll be taking measurements on scene and translating those onto the sketch to make it as accurate as possible like placing a straight edge and ruler next to it and stuff.
__________________
Evangelion Xgouki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 15:20   Link #1775
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Interesting. Though that makes some sense. Taking a picture or an object on a crime scene, you'll have different distances and varying angles from the photographer which can throw off measurements later in the lab. While with a good sketcher, he'll be taking measurements on scene and translating those onto the sketch to make it as accurate as possible like placing a straight edge and ruler next to it and stuff.
Yep. Even in the real world, they don't do photo analysis of real objects taken by photograph: they sketch.

I think we can conclusively say that any and all attempts to stadia and pull calculations from anime have been busted, since this isn't even used in the real world.

Also note that when Mythbusters use stadia-ing they have marked backdrops behind whatever they're tested.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 15:28   Link #1776
Evangelion Xgouki
NERV Personnel
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tokyo 3, Japan
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Evangelion Xgouki Send a message via MSN to Evangelion Xgouki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Yep. Even in the real world, they don't do photo analysis of real objects taken by photograph: they sketch.

I think we can conclusively say that any and all attempts to stadia and pull calculations from anime have been busted, since this isn't even used in the real world.

Also note that when Mythbusters use stadia-ing they have marked backdrops behind whatever they're tested.
Those are used in order to determine the acceleration of an object being filmed. Each 'stripe' is a pre-determined width so they are able to tell how far an object has traveled in a given time (using high speed film for more frames per second) by checking the time-stamps when the object has reached certain stripes and from there the math begins. Yay for math
Also, note that the camera is always grounded to make sure all videos of the various tests are the same and positioned with the line of sight being normal (perpendicular) to the backdrop.
__________________
Evangelion Xgouki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 15:28   Link #1777
Comartemis
He Who Smites Shippers
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 27
Quote:
I think we can conclusively say that any and all attempts to stadia and pull calculations from anime have been busted, since this isn't even used in the real world.
Hah. Good luck getting Ark to agree to that. Even an automatic negative rep for broaching the subject wouldn't stop him from trying to argue his poi--



Hey now, there's an idea. From now on, every time Ark tries to bring up stadia ranging or whatever here or anywhere else in the Nanoha boards, he automatically qualifies for a negative reputation point. We're all sick of hearing him talk about the subject so let's give him a reason to find something else to complain about.
__________________

Kill the Darkfic.
Burn the Angst.
Purge the Bad End.
Comartemis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 15:40   Link #1778
Evangelion Xgouki
NERV Personnel
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tokyo 3, Japan
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Evangelion Xgouki Send a message via MSN to Evangelion Xgouki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Hah. Good luck getting Ark to agree to that. Even an automatic negative rep for broaching the subject wouldn't stop him from trying to argue his poi--



Hey now, there's an idea. From now on, every time Ark tries to bring up stadia ranging or whatever here or anywhere else in the Nanoha boards, he automatically qualifies for a negative reputation point. We're all sick of hearing him talk about the subject so let's give him a reason to find something else to complain about.
Well, the thing also is that when measuring things in video and picture after an experiment you need to have pre-determined the scaling (like object is being tested x distance from the camera) or you have a way of measurement in the shot itself. If you try and scale it after the fact or try to super-impose a scaling means without any measurements from the time of the experiment it will be considered an invalid result by the scientific community. This is why you see experiments, even the Mythbusters since they were brought up, with a measuring means (their black and white backdrops) in every shot when they try and determine acceleration of an object/object in motion. It's in the shot and it's consistent each and every time.
__________________
Evangelion Xgouki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 16:12   Link #1779
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
So going by what you're saying... this means that for all of ark's so-called adherence to the scientific method and all his so-called scientific calculations, he's been doing it all, not just wrong, but in a way the scientific community considers invalid?

Fancy that...

Also, something to consider. Ark has frequently stated that magical attacks travel slow based on frames and his calculation. How does he then reconcile that with Sturm Falken, which is stated to be supersonic?
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-16, 16:41   Link #1780
Evangelion Xgouki
NERV Personnel
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tokyo 3, Japan
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Evangelion Xgouki Send a message via MSN to Evangelion Xgouki
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
So going by what you're saying... this means that for all of ark's so-called adherence to the scientific method and all his so-called scientific calculations, he's been doing it all, not just wrong, but in a way the scientific community considers invalid?
When doing experiments in the labs, including while I was in college, we had to take a lot of observations before we could even start. Things like current temperature (was needed on some fluid tests), current state of the experiment apparatus, pre-calculations (density determinations, angles, compensation equations for various errors that might occur, etc), current lab set up (like angle the devices are set at, how the instruments are hooked up, etc) and a few other things that depended on the test being done. Then we made sure all the devices we were using were all set up and secure like a measurement scale behind a tube a liquid we were going to observe a change of fluid level in, instruments are calibrated, etc. THEN we began the experiment. And it wasn't just once. We would take maybe a dozen or more readings and use them to get our one conclusion since due to errors a single measurement would NOT be enough. A trend or mean was needed to validate our tests. Sometimes we would encounter one or two results that were way outside the fitted curve, meaning something went wrong at that time. We wouldn't have caught it without the multiple measurements.

The same was for motion tests. We had to make sure our observations were from the same point each time and the tests were done several times to make sure the results were somewhat consistent (and of course we calculated error in the end and included that in our reports). Inserting scales after the fact without knowing anything about the environment or the observer's positioning to the test is a big no-no. Changing the camera's angle to follow an object as it flies and then using that same footage to determine speeds? Don't think so. There's a reason why tests have multiple cameras set up to cover the entire length of the experiment all set normal to the field.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Also, something to consider. Ark has frequently stated that magical attacks travel slow based on frames and his calculation. How does he then reconcile that with Sturm Falken, which is stated to be supersonic?
From talks with my art major friends and documentaries I've seen on Discovery and History channel, you can't trust frames. For one, frames can vary from show to show; even episode to episode. This makes it very erratic and a horrible way to collect data since there is no consistency. Then there's the animation itself. This relates to the frames in a way in that there can be gapes in the animation. It's a shortcut used by animators to reduce the frames per second but not make it look choppy. In fact, that is how animation was made in the first place. It all relies on the fact that the human brain/eyes can only process information so fast. By knowing that rate you only need to include so many frames since any extra would be missed by the viewer. More frames do make it look a lot smoother and add to the quality but those are movies and high-budget projects. Shows on TV tend to cut corners since they don't have as much. The camera angle also varies on a show. This relates back to illusions and measurements. An arrow is being shot at an angle 'into' the screen from a corner. In order to make it seem to go faster, they don't make it proportional as it flies away, but shorten its length even more. Animation is all tricks to create a desired look and feel when viewed. Things like proportion and relative speeds do not matter. You can ask almost anyone who studies animation and they will tell you this.
__________________
Evangelion Xgouki is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:24.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.