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Old 2008-12-17, 00:41   Link #1781
arkhangelsk
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Aah, combined arms pincer tactics. While the majority of people that aren't good or just disinterested at science fires suppression at me for being too rigorous, an Engineer goes at me for not being rigorous enough! At least the engineer is coming in the better direction IMO so I will answer him first.

But then, it may just be an opportunity attack.

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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
When doing experiments in the labs, including while I was in college, we had to take a lot of observations before we could even start.
That's a very nice explanation of the factors you will calculate and control WHERE circumstances allow. The requirements that you just scribbled below will pretty much mean the death of astronomy, where so much of the results are observational rather than experimental and often based on fleeting opportunities for observation. It'll also mean the death of a large part of psychology, psychiatry, zoology and even medicine, also fields where observation plays a huge part - in fact, an experiment with your requested degree of vigor is most often NOT possible, thanks to the subject matter.

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THEN we began the experiment. And it wasn't just once. We would take maybe a dozen or more readings and use them to get our one conclusion since due to errors a single measurement would NOT be enough.
At least this part is perfectly possible. In fact, because the sole source data is recorded, a dozen people can redo the measurement a dozen times, which may even be better than a real observation, that can only be taken exactly the same way once if one gets picky enough.

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The same was for motion tests. We had to make sure our observations were from the same point each time
That can't be hard when analyzing anime - there's only one point we will ever get, so by definition every observation is from the same point!

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and the tests were done several times to make sure the results were somewhat consistent (and of course we calculated error in the end and included that in our reports).
Oh, multiple observations are taken as far as the source material allows.

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Inserting scales after the fact without knowing anything about the environment or the observer's positioning to the test is a big no-no.
Actually, the process is more the inverse. We compute FOR the relative positioning based on the image and approximate known size of object. We can assume that the animator's aren't trying to screw us - even the most non-observational person must admit that most animators try to portray things in perspective, and that limits the effective FOVs they can reasonably use to a zone surrounding the "normal". These numbers are always written in the assumptions, and from there, calculating distance is but mathematics. Unless you wish to deny the mathematic field of trigonometry, therefore, you can stadia range.

OF course, in any particular scene, the author may INDEED be trying to screw us for reasons that are ultimately only known to him. That's an accepted risk. However, if you say that, then the scene cannot be used at ALL. Yet this is NOT what happens. People will say "Character X is shooting at a long range" based on scenes, but how can they be sure of this unless they think the author isn't trying to screw them?

Only AFTER they are told that it really shows a short range do they say they can't. I wasn't in engineering in University, Evangelion, but I don't think there is any field of science, hard or soft, experimental or observational heavy, that says it is OK to dismiss a result on the sole basis of it not being to your hopes - in fact, that would be dogma and the antithesis of science.

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Changing the camera's angle to follow an object as it flies and then using that same footage to determine speeds? Don't think so. There's a reason why tests have multiple cameras set up to cover the entire length of the experiment all set normal to the field.
Actually, IF you can know, or estimate, the motion, then you can compensate for it, similar to how you mathematically compensate for known deviations in your experimental equipment that you can't calibrate out or otherwise control. Or if it isn't large and the probable error induced would be low in comparison to the required precision, or low compared to the error rates of other factors, then you may choose to simplify computation by not adjusting for it at all. For example, if all I ask you to is to get the density of material X only to the nearest 1000g/cm^3, then you might safely ignore the effect of temperature.

Of course, IDEALLY you would use multiple fixed cameras set at normal angles, but get used to the observational sciences rather than the experimental sciences - once you get away from physics or chemistry, it gets increasingly harder to get the experiments that you describe. Sometimes, the mere attempt to get everything controlled disrupts or ignores other, more important factors until they are at settings completely unrelated to reality and thus the relevance of the test is destroyed - this is particularly true in psychology, and to a lesser extent medicine and zoology.

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From talks with my art major friends and documentaries I've seen on Discovery and History channel, you can't trust frames.
Actually, supposedly we already HAVE AT LEAST one "art major" friend (or equivalent) - Keroko, and he fights me nearly every day, so I doubt you can bring something really new here

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For one, frames can vary from show to show; even episode to episode. This makes it very erratic and a horrible way to collect data since there is no consistency.
So? Average out the data and plot an overall line through the dots. Even with your measurements, sometimes you'll get outliers, either due to errors in your measurement, or an anomalous source.

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Then there's the animation itself. This relates to the frames in a way in that there can be gapes in the animation. It's a shortcut used by animators to reduce the frames per second but not make it look choppy. In fact, that is how animation was made in the first place. It all relies on the fact that the human brain/eyes can only process information so fast. By knowing that rate you only need to include so many frames since any extra would be missed by the viewer. More frames do make it look a lot smoother and add to the quality but those are movies and high-budget projects.
For the record, from what I can see, MGLN mostly goes from 1-3 frames before changing the picture, depending on scene. However, all this does is to degrade your time resolution. Suppose you are measuring things with a camera does only 10FPS instead of 30. There would likely be increased error due to this, but it hardly makes your observation useless.

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The camera angle also varies on a show.
While such a factor will preclude any "millimetric" level measurements that is usually requested for in engineering, it is not a fatal source of error for the calculations we are doing. For example, a line that is oriented 30 degrees to you has some 86.6% of the length it'll have facing normal. That makes for errors of around 15% if you measured it as if it were normal, which is not really that significant.

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This relates back to illusions and measurements. An arrow is being shot at an angle 'into' the screen from a corner. In order to make it seem to go faster, they don't make it proportional as it flies away, but shorten its length even more. Animation is all tricks to create a desired look and feel when viewed. Things like proportion and relative speeds do not matter. You can ask almost anyone who studies animation and they will tell you this.
Yes, and if they did their jobs right, this would not only look like it, but will stand up to close scrutiny. One of the desired looks and feel is perspective, so your eye can use many of the monocular cues for ranging. And as long as animators still care about this, you can Stadia-range.

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
So going by what you're saying... this means that for all of ark's so-called adherence to the scientific method and all his so-called scientific calculations, he's been doing it all, not just wrong, but in a way the scientific community considers invalid?
Actually, I think Xgouki is posting his comments out of the context of analyzing anime. I'm getting to his other posts now, and I would have gotten to them faster if not for the fact this is a busy day and my bosses are swimming very close. Can you wait?

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Fancy that...

Also, something to consider. Ark has frequently stated that magical attacks travel slow based on frames and his calculation. How does he then reconcile that with Sturm Falken, which is stated to be supersonic?
Actually, they proved they know how to align frames and distances so that their shot actually can be justified as supersonic on the screen.

And there is no need to reconcile. Sturm Falken is just a fast attack? Why do you have more trouble than me in believing that magical attacks can vary in speed?

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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Well, the thing also is that when measuring things in video and picture after an experiment you need to have pre-determined the scaling (like object is being tested x distance from the camera) or you have a way of measurement in the shot itself. If you try and scale it after the fact or try to super-impose a scaling means without any measurements from the time of the experiment it will be considered an invalid result by the scientific community. This is why you see experiments, even the Mythbusters since they were brought up, with a measuring means (their black and white backdrops) in every shot when they try and determine acceleration of an object/object in motion. It's in the shot and it's consistent each and every time.
Actually, then, SoD scaling does have a scalar. Every image is neatly divided angularly into little blocks known as pixels - so there is an angle scale. If an angle scale is unacceptable there is no astronomy, since that is almost all about angles. Ranges and sizes are derived from the angles (such as parallax ranging).

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-12-17 at 01:25. Reason: Added WG's reply.
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Old 2008-12-17, 00:58   Link #1782
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Aah, combined arms pincer tactics. While the majority of people that aren't good or just disinterested at science fires suppression at me for being too rigorous, an Engineer goes at me for not being rigorous enough! At least the engineer is coming in the better direction IMO so I will answer him first.
No, it's just that everyone has pretty much gotten fed up with you. I know you've got a matyr complex about these things, ark, but when you can get a whole bunch of people independently annoyed at you, it says more about you than them. And no, contrary to your thoughts, none of this is planned. It just happens.

Really, you're forever beating this dead horse. You might as well realise that nobody really cares. And you're focusing on trees instead of the forest again, with Lowe's term of millimetric precision. You can claim all you like that you're never going to get that sort of precision, but when you pull out calculations to 2 decimal points, one has to wonder.

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But then, it may just be an opportunity attack.
Don't get too full of your self. You just tripped Eva's breakers.

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Actually, I think Xgouki is posting his comments out of the context of analyzing anime. I'm getting to his other posts now, and I would have gotten to them faster if not for the fact this is a busy day and my bosses are swimming very close. Can you wait?
I won't be checking my computer until another 12 hours from now, 2AM my time. I have time.

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Actually, they proved they know how to align frames and distances so that their shot actually can be justified as supersonic on the screen.

And there is no need to reconcile. Sturm Falken is just a fast attack? Why do you have more trouble than me in believing that magical attacks can vary in speed?
Oh, I have no problems believing in variable speed. It's just that a while back you had such a hard-on for slow-moving magic attacks, so I wanted to see how you could reconcile calculations of Sturm Falken's speed based on your beloved frames with stated speed; it obviously wouldn't be the same. I note you haven't done those calcs, but have simply waved it off by saying "it looks supersonic". And to think you were insisting mages can't go supersonic despite Fate's sonic boom.

Though in all honesty, I have to point out that this thread has been a source of nonstop laughter to me for the last 24 hours.
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Old 2008-12-17, 02:37   Link #1783
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
No, it's just that everyone has pretty much gotten fed up with you. I know you've got a matyr complex about these things, ark, but when you can get a whole bunch of people independently annoyed at you, it says more about you than them.
That is an axiom about nails sticking out of the sand. It says nothing about whether the nails is right or wrong.

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Really, you're forever beating this dead horse. You might as well realise that nobody really cares.
I won't be beating it so much if people don't naturally congregate to attack it so much. Knowing how you guys interpret nolo contendere I can't do that either.

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And you're focusing on trees instead of the forest again, with Lowe's term of millimetric precision. You can claim all you like that you're never going to get that sort of precision, but when you pull out calculations to 2 decimal points, one has to wonder.
With so many trees I have to handle, it is some time before I'm done with them. The calculation came out to 2 decimal points, so I wrote it out as is. The conclusion, however, is broad and general.

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Don't get too full of your self. You just tripped Eva's breakers.
It may well be, but the timing is uncanny.

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Oh, I have no problems believing in variable speed. It's just that a while back you had such a hard-on for slow-moving magic attacks,
I don't have a "hard-on" for slow-moving magic attacks. Maybe 7Arcs does, for I look at the information provided and concluded they were slow.

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so I wanted to see how you could reconcile calculations of Sturm Falken's speed based on your beloved frames with stated speed; it obviously wouldn't be the same.
There's no need to reconcile.

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I note you haven't done those calcs, but have simply waved it off by saying "it looks supersonic". And to think you were insisting mages can't go supersonic despite Fate's sonic boom.
1) For Fate's sonic boom, I had a healthy skepticism, but after careful analysis of the visual involved and checking for countervailing factors, agreed that it was indeed a case of supersonic movement.
2) Considering my reaction, has the possibility that I have actually looked at this in the past (in fact, IIRC I was the first to bring it up) and concluded it was supersonic occurred to you? You know me - when I agree it is supersonic, it won't be by quick glimpse. The frame analysis must have been done sometime in the past and the combination of ranging and time fo flight can support a supersonic (it wasn't quite fast enough to be unambigiously supersonic on those two alone but the boom and text clinched it). "Strangely", it is just about the only analyses that was not contended, despite the fact it was conducted using the exact same principles as the rest - the only thing that's different is that the outcome was "nice."
3) Besides, if I hadn't done the analysis, it can't turn out different. In that event, I have no reason to doubt the text. I might tend to prioritize pictures over text, for reasons I've mentioned before (do a search), but it doesn't mean the text is useless.

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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
This is starting to get a tad out of hand. The earlier debates over the series and tech and stuff was alright. Now you wish to bring in actual scientific equations to try and prove your case? That's going too far.
It is certainly a better shot than just going by feel.

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If you want to figure out how high an object goes in reality, you need more and bigger equations to factor in air resistance, density, any rotation on the object during its ascent, etc.
Well, we can't be perfect about this (not enough data), but I think we CAN actually roughly factor in the effect of air resistance. It is something but it isn't that great, which is one of the reasons I omitted it. If we assume that Teana was in one of those horizontal free-fall (worst case, since she was clearly vertical when launched, the phase when the effect of drag is greatest and only afterwards went into the flat) positions, her terminal velocity in Terran-like atmosphere would be ~55m/s. We can thus get a rough drag coefficient for a human and apply it.

Getting a calculator that does allow you to enter air resistance, and calibrating it so its terminal velocity is about 55 (actually I settled for ~53.3), to get to ~58m altitude, at a 85 degree initial angle of "launch" (a very high angle is chosen because Teana apparently didn't fly very far horizontally), Subaru will have to launch her at ~38m/s instead of 34. This will slightly increase the force she can apply (about 12%), but hardly enough to make a difference in the conclusion.

As for rotation, I doubt Teana would be spinning around fast enough to make a real difference.

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Doing this on a person makes it even more complex since you then need to worry about a varying center of gravity, constantly changing surface profile, and protrusions on the object that are not fixed relative to the object (i.e. limbs and head).
True, but seeing we've already recalced using a worst case drag profile, AFAIK I don't think these factors will make a large difference in the result. Correct me if you disagree.

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Second, getting measurements off a drawn picture would not fly as a means to draw scientific measurements. Objects, especially objects at distance or seen at angles, are drawn stylized to give the viewer an illusion of distance and perspective. This is similar to optical illusions that use it to trick the human eye.
In other words, they are drawn in such a way as to provide distance data.

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Also camera that are used are commonly positioned facing tangent to the path of travel of the object or normal to the path of travel to avoid having to over-complicate the measurements taken from the images to compensate for the angle of prospective.
Welcome to the world of actually observing reality rather than observing lab objects. In the real world, angle-on-bow is inevitable. You either estimate the foreshortening, or ignore it if you only desire approximate numbers.

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So basically any so-called 'measurements' taken from an image are invalid without knowing the true scale in which they are drawn (which is why practically every school book has the 'not to scale' disclaimer on images which are not accurate and only drawn as a pictorial representation or example to give a general idea). As an engineer I couldn't let equations be used improperly, especially if they are being used in support of arguments. And the stuff about drawing illusions? Learned that first week of basic drawing class.
Actually, the range of probable angular scale is limited to relatively narrow limits due to the need to provide the "illusion" of distance that you mention. This is called perspective. And denying the validity of angular scale is to deny the entire field of stadiametric rangefinding, which is only the one of the most popular ranging methods before nice things like laser, and trigonometry as well.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-12-17 at 03:26.
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Old 2008-12-17, 06:32   Link #1784
Avatar_notADV
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Ark, but that's in the real world, where physics are a constant. -It ain't so in an anime-.

Even little things might not be consistent. How wide is that door? Is it the same width the next time you see it? Maybe, maybe not. You can bet it'll get a little narrower if the joke is that two people try to go through it at once. ;p

It doesn't do any good to say "well, in the real world" when we're measuring something that is, at heart, an unreal world. It doesn't have to be consistent. It doesn't have to conform to concepts of reality for time, space, distance, what have you. And not only that, but it doesn't have to depart from them "due to the magic"; the very nature of anime as a visual storytelling medium is going to play hob with your calculations. This isn't even getting into things that are tropes of the genre, and one of them is that people get to sit there and call out their attacks. Even if you'd expect Fate and Nanoha to cast spells at each other simultaneously, in the anime they'll alternate because it's better to hear one at a time than two.
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Old 2008-12-17, 08:33   Link #1785
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Ark, but that's in the real world, where physics are a constant. -It ain't so in an anime-.

Even little things might not be consistent. How wide is that door? Is it the same width the next time you see it? Maybe, maybe not. You can bet it'll get a little narrower if the joke is that two people try to go through it at once. ;p
There's that chance.

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It doesn't do any good to say "well, in the real world" when we're measuring something that is, at heart, an unreal world. It doesn't have to be consistent. It doesn't have to conform to concepts of reality for time, space, distance, what have you. And not only that, but it doesn't have to depart from them "due to the magic"; the very nature of anime as a visual storytelling medium is going to play hob with your calculations. This isn't even getting into things that are tropes of the genre, and one of them is that people get to sit there and call out their attacks. Even if you'd expect Fate and Nanoha to cast spells at each other simultaneously, in the anime they'll alternate because it's better to hear one at a time than two.
This I can actually accept if things stay separate. But the problem with saying "not the real world" is that it is only a matter of time before someone inevitably tries to link it with the real world. How many times have we had discussions of whether BJs are bulletproof? Or whether Subaru can lift a tank?

That these same guys tend to rumble about "author's intent" or "premise" is ... funny. The author went to every effort to see to it they'll NEVER have to face up to such scenarios (they even make a mass weapon ban and the "cheaters" don't use the HV weapons), and then we put them into it. Then they don't accept it when a conclusion says they'll lose, or even when they'll have to put some brains together to win.

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Well, the other problem I have is that you guys have developed the terrible habit of Fisking -every post each other makes-. Tearing apart each other's arguments line by line might have a visceral appeal, but it isn't any good to read.
Well, I'll admit that's a habit of mine gotten from a previous board and newsgroup where as you can probably tell, they "Fisk" each other's posts extensively.

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Anyway, ironically, some of the discussion about Subaru taking on Gadgets hand-to-hand was perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with observing "hey, if a girl can jump on one of them and hold it down, it's probably not too heavy!" That's a good kind of observation.
Which unfortunately still didn't stop a few people from attacking

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Personally, though, I'd stop at trying to calculate the exact punching strength of a character who we know, through plot device, can punch through essentially anything. Ah, Subaru... <3
Well, but then, the same might apply for the first part as well. Subaru pinned it down this time, but with a plot necessity, I'm sure the writers will make the Gadget fly Subaru right off, or a funny scene where Subaru hangs on while the Gadget romps across the street Why the difference in treatment?

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If you're talking about history, well, you also have to take a lot of that with a grain of salt. Herodotus was the father of modern history, compiling the first "book of history" that survived to the modern day, actually attempting to compile events as were related to him. But a significant number of the events in his book are, well, complete bull. They'd have to be - unless you believe that BC armies had the trick of logistics to support armies of hundreds of thousands of men, which they didn't. ;p You've got to pick through the material and choose the pieces which are supported elsewhere, the pieces which are supported elsewhere but are obviously bull, the pieces which aren't supported elsewhere but are plausible... you get the idea, right?
I'll actually agree with this ... however, a lot of MGLN is in between picking one kind of apparent bull and another kind of apparent bull.

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Examining anime is the same way. While the animators ought to take things like perspective into consideration, and make a world that resembles the real world, they're under no particular obligation to stick close to real-world physics in any particular scene. Hm, another analogy... take Love Hina. (Please!) You could measure Keitaro's ballistic trajectory and come up with a good estimate of Naru's maximum punching strength, sure. And then you could conclude that they're both some kind of mutant superhuman or something (Naru, for being able to launch ronin into low orbit, and Keitaro for not dying from it). But they're not, and if you were measuring it as if it were serious, you'd be missing the point badly; even though the scene is depicted, the viewer isn't intended to take it literally.
Well, this one is for countless anime
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Old 2008-12-17, 11:07   Link #1786
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Just one thing I want to point out, with regards to realism, physics, and storytelling:

So long as the story entertains and you make what you write plausible and believable, you can get away with almost anything.

I've spent the last 5 hours getting chewed out. I am in no mood for any of this shit.
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Old 2008-12-17, 11:14   Link #1787
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My sympathies. My day wasn't that hot overall either.
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Old 2008-12-17, 11:20   Link #1788
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I have been told that my position is in jeopardy. *sighs* Goddamned motherfucking recession.
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Old 2008-12-18, 11:30   Link #1789
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Ark, just curious, have you nothing more to say about alternative deployments for ep16-17? I'm still waiting for you to rip into my last response almost 2 days ago.
I've been doing some thinking, and I think that a better deployment at GFHQ actually risks losing Subaru in addition to Ginga and serious injuries to Tia, Erio and Caro.
one way or another, Jail's forces are going to move in on Ginga and/or Subaru. Chances are, they would prefer to isolate one then gang up on her.
Even in your best case scenario with everyone outside the building and Ginga with them. All 3 Aces and vice captains will be busy engaging threats, so the Forwards will have to deal with this threat on their own. This time, there will be no option to disengage. They'll be worn down until they're combat ineffective. Then, the Nakajimas will be captured. Even if Ginga is with the 4 of them, it won't be enough. We know Ginga didn't use her IS even when she was outnumbered (if she did, it didn't help) so she probably won't use it in this scenario. If she's with Subaru, they'll both be equally worn at the end of the battle. Even if Subaru uses her IS when Ginga goes down, she might not have enough combat ability left to stop the Cyborgs. End result, both Type-0s are captured and the other Forwards are too crippled to do anything by then.
This has further consequences for the defense ar RF6 base. If Caro goes down at GFHQ, she won't be there to summon Voltaire to sweep the drones away. There probably won't be anything left to rebuild, this time. If Caro and Erio return to the base as in the episode (you think they'll let Caro return on her own?), then Tia will be on her own with the Nakajima sisters. They'll likely go down even faster.
As you can see, even a better deployment can lead to a worse outcome for RF6.
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Old 2008-12-18, 13:40   Link #1790
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There's not a whole lot of point discussing deployment patterns for 16-17. All we can do is stipulate "putting aces on security and then disarming them is really dumb". I can accept "really dumb" for a plot reason - most plausible would be tradition - but it's harder to swallow simply "because the aces would wipe the floor with the Numbers otherwise, so they had to disarm them somehow". That's bad writing, when you have an opportunity to explain something that looks dumb and it doesn't occur to you that you should do so.

Within those confines, it's tough to say. On paper, sure, longer engagement of Subaru vs. Numbers means the Numbers have a greater opportunity to inflict casualties. On the other hand, Teana's obviously smarter than a number of the Numbers, and managed to counter three of them on her own under much worse conditions. Tea plus Subaru plus Ginga? That's plausibly a victory scenario for the Bureau, though, since we know that the HQ attack was along the nature of a huge feint, it's likely that against determined opposition the Numbers would have withdrawn rather than slugged it out.

(Also, no downed Ginga means no berserker mode IS-using Subaru, which means that Cinque probably gets away operational. That's bad - Cinque was a lot more useful to the Numbers than Ginga was to the Bureau...)

But the Bureau's deployment plans are inscrutably bad for the whole show, so why should 16-17 be any different? Especially when we're talking about a civilization with access to magical transportation technology; couldn't they have been pulling the non-combatants out of RF6 while the battle went on? No, because for whatever bizarro reason, they don't keep any ships near their freakin' administrative capital. Sigh...

You gotta wonder how much actual importance they attach to Mid. It's NOT the Navy's primary base, okay, I can buy that. (Britain and Scapa Flow?) But if your navy isn't in position to intervene concerning direct attacks on your homeworld... That would be a big board of inquiry question for the aftermath. Of course it's always possible that Regius was playing administrative games, and the reason there were no ships available was that his Einherjar had been tasked with local defense instead. But we can't blame Regius for every dumb thing the TSAB does...
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Old 2008-12-19, 04:20   Link #1791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
And after that what? She can't just up and leave her post because she feels like it.
Then, she'll be close but oh so far away.
Obviously, you were supposed to have placed her in a post where she can be transferred without too much trouble.

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It seems to me that you're imagining the output to the familiar as a hole in a balloon, if the balloon is inflated (as the mage gets more powerful) the hole gets bigger. Is that correct?
There's also a throttle(s) in the system somewhere - otherwise the mage can't control his own output. But valves like faucets or throttles don't make you pressure independent (see below).

[quote]Nothing wrong with that idea, but that doesn't mean it's right one or the only one. My idea is more like a tank with a fixed flow faucet, it doesn't matter how much water (energy) is in the tank, the faucet releases the same amount to the familiar. Why's that any more difficult?

Without claiming to be an expert in plumbing or fluid dynamics, if faucets are so fixed-flow, why the f*ck does the flow weaken and I nearly get scalded (the water heater has to heat less water as the flow reduced, so the water took a hike in temperature) everytime my mother tries to use the other shower simultaneously?

Actually, that was my previous apartment - it is better in my current one. The reason why faucets are relatively stable despite pressure changes to a point is due to the choked flow effect. However, to achieve this effect, the flow demanded by the faucet must be only a relatively small percentage of the available flow. Otherwise, you wind up like my old shower, or my new shower when my building's plumbing system developed a partial blockage somewhere a few weeks ago - getting enough water to wash hair was a real struggle that day...

In other words, such an architecture can only be employed without additional complexity IF the flow to the familiar is a small percentage (a housetap as opposed to the total water flow and pressure provided by the building's plumbing system). As your system depressurizes from S+ to AA, can you really say that your familiar won't lose pressure in her "faucet"? A temporary drop (say in combat) can be buffered by reserves, but when you just cut like ~90% of your regular pressure on a prolonged basis...

Even if you re-ADJUST your faucet to a wider setting to compensate, the familiar is STILL left more vulnerable to changes in your flow (say when you open your faucet wide to fire a AA blast) when it is sucking off your limited flow instead of your pre-limited flow since it is so much closer to the point when flow becomes unchoked. There are such things as reserves, but is this really such a good idea compared to just giving him the power pre-limited? Familiars, as you mention, aren't cheap.

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And I keep saying, is it even possible to leave the flow untouched by the limiter?
See above. It better is, or familiars may be in big trouble. Remember that AA is hardly the lowest they can go. They can achieve at least a 4-rank shaft from SS->A - good luck keeping your familiar alive! Besides, with your faucet architecture, it is very easy.

Either
Mana Tank-->Familiar's Independent Faucet
Mana Tank-->Main Faucet-->Limiter Faucet (this is the configuration that provides the most stable power of the reviewed options for your familiar - unless the tank really runs dry your familiar should receive power through its independent link. It also allows the potential for a more powerful familiar. Say you can be AAA, she can be AAA simultaneously because you are sharing off the same tank from separate faucets allowing both to draw up to Choke-Flow for their respective faucets instead of sharing one faucet - you'll spend the tank faster when this happens but the flow is there until the tank starts to run dry - you don't have a prayer of this in the second configuration.)
OR
Mana Tank-->Main Faucet-->Familiar Sub-Faucet->Limiter Faucet (this configuration will provide stable power to your familiar in the Limited Configuration, but without the limiter faucet, there's a chance that a sudden full power strike will result in a short term power "brownout" due to depressurization. The familiar has reserves but this is still something that can be avoided).
instead of
Mana Tank-->Main Faucet-->Limiter Faucet->Familiar Sub-Faucet (what are you thinking)

Frankly, except for the trust thing (now who's smearing the TSAB, and does the TSAB want to expose its distrust that openly - even Regius keeps quiet about his personal opinions!), I don't see why it shouldn't be one of the former instead of the latter.

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If your idea were the case, then the Bureau ought to pick up Arf and assign her someplace. Put that extra energy from Fate to use, as it were. They didn't do that, why? Because they're as dumb as you always claim?
Yes, they should be doing that, but they were probably respecting Fate's wishes (you just can't antagonize elite mages in the TSAB, which is a state that Regius and the HC justifably wanted to get out of). They didn't even push for the 3 Aces to join them full time until THEY pretty much volunteered to do so.

Fate should be doing it herself, but this is exactly what we are discussing.

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Not from Arf anyway. Had she kept her wits, she would have used her Limit Break earlier and had everything wrapped up well before Quattro decided to blow everything to hell. By the time that did happen, she might have recovered enough to dodge the rocks.
Did you forget the whole part about how using LB would basically mean the end of her participation in the mission and that was the reason for her reluctance?

Generally, you want to improve your CoF even for a brief period, because you can then save ammunition in the back end - the Soviets had entire tables that estimate how many shells you could save while reaching destruction norms by pouring on the shells fast. The fact she's not exploiting is due to 2 reasons.
1) Stupidity.
2) The murderous drain of the LB is so great she was willing to risk burning more ammo rather than blow out her plant. Her victory was fast, but so's that of a 100m sprinter. It was not necessarily easy.

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Assembly, yes. But remember, no one's moving until that last guy shows up. Else, the first person's already to the stairs by the time the last guy shows up. Assuming he wasn't shot by a drone before he got there.

I don't see how. The longer they spend in the open, the greater their chances of being completely wiped out. After all, even you want to get them under cover so they can last longer. Do you think they can do that, out in the open between the base and the field?

Do you want them to spend more time in the open than they have to? If they're moving in a cluster, you can be sure the drones are crowding around them, using their AMF to wear down Shamal's shields and shooting (even if a drone can't do both at once, there's enough for a lot to do each), then Otto moves in to smash them. If they walked they wouldn't even make it to the stairs.
I meant to say that the way you want to stretch out that timeline, there will be enough time eked out for them to walk there before the attackers arrive, not that they won't RUN.

The principle of convoying assumes that, given that a bunch of "lambs" are going to make their way through a danger zone, perhaps for strategic reasons (transport of war materials, say) or tactical (because a position not very far away is much more defensible - as I'll argue is the case here), with the protection of limited escort assets, it is safer for them to go through as an escorted cluster even at a lower speed than everyone making their own way.

The drones were going to crowd Shamal and Zafira and any other guys I can throw into the field anyway, so that whole AMF thing is a done deal. Depending on when they can run, they'll be briefly in more danger, but safer once they hit the field.

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They'd have to be blind not to see what was going on. If people evacuated the buildings, they'd definitely take some kind of action. Especially when they see Aina carrying Vivio.
They'll have to get in LOS first. Besides, IIRC you said that they didn't know Vivio was a target. Given this, why do you think they realize Vivio might attract enemies like moth & fire?

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I don't know. And like I said, do you want to find out when the field gets unplugged?
That last is not a given. I don't even see why you think the basement can be under the field - the projection system will then inhibit access between G/F and B/F. It is more likely from the POV of the field, B/F is the Ground, G/F is the first floor and so on.

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That still has no numbers on how long they lasted.
We have the time provided by the show, or you can go by the actual show time.

Anyway, a long time means every phase lengthens, including the warning phase as Otto and Deed comes in. As that time lengthens, time available to evac lengthens, and it favors my proposal

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I did say "wrapping a fortress around it"
And what kind of "little protection" do you want to add to the field? Do remember, it's several city blocks in size. It looks like they didn't simulate space within the field, there really is that much room to move about.
By necessity, a lot of the infrastructure for the field is below the surface already. Start by moving any exposed PDSs underground as well.

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To turn off a mere training field? It seems that Uno or Quattro may be able to hack whatever software defenses it may have. Uno with her IS and Quattro with her EW specialty.
Given the limited time available even in a long attack scenario, and the advantage that crypt has over decrypt, with anything remotely close to equality in resources, if it actually gets hacked it suggests a flaw in the security system.

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Ah, but after ep12, both of them are interested in RF6 and there's plenty of time from then until the attack to get the plans and put them to use. There's also the High Council and whoever listens to them. One request from Jail, I'm sure they can accommodate him.
But what pretext will he use to get the files? Besides, RF6 doesn't know he can do this. If that's the reason for the downfall, shouldn't they play it up so we'll think what turds the HC and Regius are (as is apparently intended), so we'll discuss THAT instead of THIS.

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Plasterboard then. People tell you it doesn't make sense to build buildings out of material that can crumble like that under impact from a person. Instead of dismissing the scene as exaggeration, you come up with reasons why someone would use such pathetic materials. Nevermind that something so wea would collapse under its own weight, let alone that of the people in it.
That's why there must be something strong in it somewhere. If you had seen a wall with such wierd properties in real life, I'll argue that's one of the only ways to square the circle.

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Given your tendency to belittle any capability shown by the Bureau and its personnel,
Down there, I am pushing for them to have an ability to make quite a large quantity of pseudomatter, a concept that you yourself have trouble with. Whatever the merits, wouldn't it blast a hole in this "tendency" of me to "belittle" and minimize any TSAB accomplishment? But more on PM.

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I'm sure both would come to pass. It's like you actually enjoy getting beaten. Then you come back kicking until they all shut up because they can't follow your convoluted arguments anymore. Does that please you?

Sometimes I wonder if you think, "the things I go through to enlighten these forumers..." when replying to our responses.
I'm sure sometimes this feeling is mutual, and I won't deny it has flashed through me from time to time, especially as Keroko doesn't understand for the 3rd time how it is theoretically possible to stop a moving object without spending energy. I will also say I don't really remember a time having that feeling debating with you. For the rest of this point I'll take to PM.

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This is only possible if they can make it into the field without being tracked by Jail's forces. Remember how we talked about them coming under attack while making their way to the field? They have more drones than there are people in the base, they can follow everyone to their hiding spots. if they didn't shot them before they reached it. And like I said, game's over once Aina brings Vivio out. They'll throw everything they have at her, no defense by Shamal and Zafira at this point will last the 10 minutes you said they did in the episode (and they might have lasted longer than that too)
Concealment? They have to recognize it is Vivio, and since Otto and Deed's first plan was to hide in the bushes until the enemy is worn-down, it'll be up to the not very smart Gadgets to figure that out. Further, if they make it into the field, even if Shamal and Zafira last say 5 minutes, they'll have time to find good hiding spots in the field. This does not take into account the fact the field provides the possibility of the "prepared" defense that WG wanted (since it can just be "called up" and formed, which may reduce their energy expenditure considerably. Finally, you will note while they seem to have a good idea Vivio was in the building, after crushing Shamal and Zafira, Otto and Deed IIRC weren't exactly rushing into the building to look itself, but patrolling outside, so again it'll be the Gadgets and Lutecia - it mostly definitely ain't everything.

Also, see above. They don't even know Vivio is a target. Otherwise, it is even less forgivable for them not to have taken more security measures, like the ones ATC suggested, so this is not a valid point to use in the security computation. Also, again, a long scenario will allow them to take their time evacuating and hiding w/o coming under observation and fire, thus they can hide Vivio in a larger "bush".

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If the damage was that bad, they'd have to turn off the building, fix the foundation, then turn on the building again. That is, if they used such construction techniques. They didn't do that.
If the building is that damaged, the fields are broken, so they can't use them to dissolve the pseudomatter. They would have to destroy or cart away the wreckage like fermion matter, and the broke foundation. Then they will have to replace the foundation before they can turn on the building. Rebuilding will presumably be faster than our own techniques because you don't have to pour on the concrete, but not instant like your scenario.

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That's assuming the idea's even possible, which I strongly doubt.
Tell me something, between a forcefield capable of standing up to heavy magic assaults and an illusion which do you think they would choose? Which would probably last much longer?
I'm assuming they didn't quite have the cash to get themselves a shield as well as the training field.

Besides, as I've argued previously, while against the entire spectrum of attacks the shield is probably more effective, against AMF enemies (which RF6 faces a whole lot), the equation would change, due to their poor (non-existent?) performance against pseudomatter and the increased depth, which ensures even if they melt through they have to keep repeating the procedure. So instead you have the field pull double-duty.

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You're doing the same with your insistance that wide-scale pseudomatter generation is possible.
At least I'm just expanding it from what is certainly known, and we already arguably are seeing a case of this.

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Complicated doesn't mean impossible or slow. Take a look inside modern processor architecture, that's complicated, but it's damn fast when you're running a game.
Oh, I'm sure the computer power is available, but they still have to adjust magic and all that. Can you show why you think they can make the physic adjustments that quickly, and why you prefer this system, which will, in the event of accidental power loss, dump the players hard onto the base of the system.

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Probably to the 108th. She's one of the links between both units after all. And who would think you'd need two people to give the report?
The fact that at any moment, an enemy would strike, and if that would happen, they might have to go in without assembly. In such a case, two-men teams are, as a rule, much more survivable, something the TSAB managed to pick up on. In fact, the emphasis they seem to place on two-man teams is rather laudable.

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But then you take it as 100% accurate with no margin of error or uncertainly. You're so sure of the answer, you give it to two decimal places. Other people might have plus-minus error ranges instead.
Well, I'll admit I erred in omitting to make explicit the point that there is an uncertainty cone, because frankly I thought it obvious given the limitations of observation and the model's obvious simplicity (in this case, a more complicated model won't even have variables to enter), there is going to be an error zone. On the other hand, I'm sure my conclusions themselves were pretty broad.

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And every time you do this, you appear to deliver the results in a very condescending tone, as if because you worked so hard to get your answers, they have to be right. Even the way you say you may be wrong sounds more like, "Let see you make the effort to find out if I was wrong"
Since they can't be bothered to analyze the scene in as much detail as you, they take it with a grain of salt, wave it off as overanalyzing or decide you're skewing things in your favor. Surely you weren't expecting them to cheer for you for debunking their claims. Especially since you're not even doing it in a fun way like Mythbusters, for example.
I'll do this in PM.
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Old 2008-12-19, 05:32   Link #1792
Avatar_notADV
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Ark, Bureau forces couldn't protect the automated defenses or reactors of GFHQ, even when they were on alert for trouble and with their forces augmented (but not really, as disarmed bodyguards don' really count, huh...) Even so, there was plenty of staff there besides the Forwards.

And not only did the Numbers succeed in their attack, they completed more or less every objective they had -without even killing anyone-. That's not something you can do if you're striking a target that's hardened to the utmost of their capability. Jail pulled his punch and still one-shot KOed a general HQ! Even though it was a feint - or rather, especially because it was a feint, because that implies he managed it with only a fraction of his force.

I can't understand why there would be anything funny or tricksy that the RF6 guys could do, that wasn't also available to GHQ, especially since RF6 isn't really a high-value target aside from its personnel, whereas GHQ is -always- a target.
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Old 2008-12-19, 07:36   Link #1793
Keroko
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Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkhangelsk
Given the limited time available even in a long attack scenario, and the advantage that crypt has over decrypt, with anything remotely close to equality in resources, if it actually gets hacked it suggests a flaw in the security system.
Problem here is multi fold. For one, the resources are not equal. Uno and Quatro both have hacking capabilities that are virtually undetectable for the bureau, they have the advantage. Both of them managed to get deep into the main base computer system in virtually no time at all, taking down the security on a training field should be no trouble for them.

Second, considering they already were inside the network, unless the training field is completely isolated they don't even need to do as much, if anything they can just querry the password from the inside out. If the training field isn't isolated, then they already are inside and don't even need to query, they only need to shut it down.

This, of course, doesn't take into account the aforementioned loss of time by having to escort a group of civilians under attack. Even if they do evac as soon as the alarm sounds, they still will have to defend the civilians from the drones. And as mentioned, when Aina appears carrying Vivio, one can expect Otto and Deed to show up much faster.
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Old 2008-12-19, 09:11   Link #1794
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Problem here is multi fold. For one, the resources are not equal. Uno and Quatro both have hacking capabilities that are virtually undetectable for the bureau, they have the advantage. Both of them managed to get deep into the main base computer system in virtually no time at all, taking down the security on a training field should be no trouble for them.
Undetectable means that you may be unable to trace them as they send their hacking attempts into the computer. However, they STILL have to break the crypts and passwords by themselves. While of course no one can be 100% sure of what happened, in general, the "defender" has the advantage in that as he adds bits to his code, the number of possibilities skyrocket. So while there is no doubt that if the crypt doesn't change, the hacker will eventually (with many "eventuallies" reaching into years or more) break it with sufficient resources, if the code is broken within a short time (especially like here), the chances favor a mistake or leak on the defender's part (such as leaving a nice backdoor or Clipper chip kind of thing, or leaking something that can be picked up) rather than the other side being "just that good", even if the hacking attempts themselves can't be traced.

And even if Uno and Quattro got some special techniques that will allow them to defy the known principles of cryptography and decrypt properly done crypts in seconds, the defense team won't know about that and probably won't compute on that. So the scene might be that they try, but somehow Uno and Quattro do it.

The official explanation (from the Magical Dictionary) is that either Sein and Cinque, who had infiltrated inside, got the key or they had received "prior information" to make this hacking so easy. Since as far as we know that did not happen to RF6 at least...

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Second, considering they already were inside the network, unless the training field is completely isolated they don't even need to do as much, if anything they can just querry the password from the inside out. If the training field isn't isolated, then they already are inside and don't even need to query, they only need to shut it down.
Wait, since when were they already inside. They got into the GF's network, but there's no evidence it is connected to RF6, and the best we actually saw them manage to do anything more than send some noise into the link between RF6 and its guys in HQ.

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This, of course, doesn't take into account the aforementioned loss of time by having to escort a group of civilians under attack. Even if they do evac as soon as the alarm sounds, they still will have to defend the civilians from the drones. And as mentioned, when Aina appears carrying Vivio, one can expect Otto and Deed to show up much faster.
Actually, the attack actually hit awhile after they are clearly under attack, so by moving fast, they might actually (depending on the total length of attack) get out before the first drones arrive.

In the real attack, Otto and Deed know Vivio is somewhere in the building, but they were in no apparent hurry. They waited till Shamal and Zafira were worn, moved in to take them out, then they waited for the search instead of rushing in to help. If anything, if they actually SEE Vivio, they might actually relax thinking they can get her anytime and just wait for all the drones to finish attacking ... etc.

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Ark, Bureau forces couldn't protect the automated defenses or reactors of GFHQ, even when they were on alert for trouble and with their forces augmented (but not really, as disarmed bodyguards don' really count, huh...) Even so, there was plenty of staff there besides the Forwards.
Well, most would actually call that sucky security. As far as we can tell, no one even checked out Cinque as she ambled toward the core.

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And not only did the Numbers succeed in their attack, they completed more or less every objective they had -without even killing anyone-. That's not something you can do if you're striking a target that's hardened to the utmost of their capability. Jail pulled his punch and still one-shot KOed a general HQ! Even though it was a feint - or rather, especially because it was a feint, because that implies he managed it with only a fraction of his force.
And it was a fraction of his force.

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I can't understand why there would be anything funny or tricksy that the RF6 guys could do, that wasn't also available to GHQ, especially since RF6 isn't really a high-value target aside from its personnel, whereas GHQ is -always- a target.
The problem, as I've said from over a year ago till now, is not so much the result. Intentwise, insofar as we can read intent, we know it is a done deal. Scientifically, the intent does not really exist in universe, but against an adequately adverse correlation of forces anyone can lose.

Which is why the complaints, from a year ago to now, have generally focused on effort, on things that they did not do that might have made a difference. And any defendant tries to prove that the proposed effort is infeasible or unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I've been doing some thinking, and I think that a better deployment at GFHQ actually risks losing Subaru in addition to Ginga and serious injuries to Tia, Erio and Caro.
Anytime you actually fight, this has the chance to happen. With your defeatist attitude, I'll suggest yet another alternative - don't fight at all. Simply have everyone go on a nice picnic. Sure, GF and RF6 HQ would be trashed when they get back, but at least no one will get hurt, and no one would be "lost".

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one way or another, Jail's forces are going to move in on Ginga and/or Subaru. Chances are, they would prefer to isolate one then gang up on her.
They can try.

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Even in your best case scenario with everyone outside the building and Ginga with them. All 3 Aces and vice captains will be busy engaging threats, so the Forwards will have to deal with this threat on their own.
Yup. At least all three Aces and 2 Vice-Captains would actually be doing something to attenuate, delay or even terminate what would come next week.

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This time, there will be no option to disengage.
Actually, they still can. However, this time, they will not be forced to disengage because they got a delivery mission.

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They'll be worn down until they're combat ineffective. Then, the Nakajimas will be captured. Even if Ginga is with the 4 of them, it won't be enough. We know Ginga didn't use her IS even when she was outnumbered (if she did, it didn't help) so she probably won't use it in this scenario. If she's with Subaru, they'll both be equally worn at the end of the battle. Even if Subaru uses her IS when Ginga goes down, she might not have enough combat ability left to stop the Cyborgs. End result, both Type-0s are captured and the other Forwards are too crippled to do anything by then.
Uh, can you justify this pessimistic outcome prediction? Never mind that even if it is true, they won't know that before moving in, so such a prediction won't be part of their computation - they'll probably go in expecting to be able to win.

Considering that ultimately, while it was very tactically stupid, they DID manage to finish their later mission while split up. And even the Numbers themselves admit the Forwards can be relatively impressive if they keep their Combined Arms balance, which is why their Ep21 plan involved working hard to split them up. So there seems little justification in your statement up there like their loss is a done deal.

The big unknown, IMO here is Cinque. She managed to defeat Zest at the cost of her eye, though we saw absolutely no other details. She also managed to put damage onto Subaru that would likely have caused most people to have collapsed despite barriers - frankly, she and Subaru were about one attack from finishing off each other - had Cinque gotten in an extra attack at the start instead of on the floor, Subaru probably will have accumulated enough "damage points" to go down entirely regardless of her berserk state.

It is probably safe to assume, thus, that Cinque's attack is very good - get hit by those Rumble Detonators, and the limited evidence suggests even an S will be badly hurt. Equally, from what very little we can see of her style, she is not a very maneuverable fighter - she didn't use maneuver AT ALL against Subaru even though she wasn't moving all that quickly. From that we can infer that a faster, more maneuverable fighter like Erio may be able to force her onto the defensive - and she doesn't seem able to attack and defend at the same time, thus suppressing those RDs.

Given all this, I see no reason to say that it is some kind of done deal for the Forwards to lose. In fact, overall, I figure they have a fair chance.

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This has further consequences for the defense ar RF6 base. If Caro goes down at GFHQ, she won't be there to summon Voltaire to sweep the drones away. There probably won't be anything left to rebuild, this time. If Caro and Erio return to the base as in the episode (you think they'll let Caro return on her own?), then Tia will be on her own with the Nakajima sisters. They'll likely go down even faster.
As you can see, even a better deployment can lead to a worse outcome for RF6.
If you figure they'll lose. However, once that battle starts, it is doubtful that either Caro or Erio will pull out of the line.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-12-19 at 10:07.
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Old 2008-12-20, 12:01   Link #1795
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Obviously, you were supposed to have placed her in a post where she can be transferred without too much trouble.
And they're in charge of other units' personnel to that degree? If they could have her in the TSAB, they might as well have put her in RF6 and bump off one of the Forwards.

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There's also a throttle(s) in the system somewhere - otherwise the mage can't control his own output. But valves like faucets or throttles don't make you pressure independent
Once again, you take analogies too literally. But I have to admit, not long after writing that, I got concerned about the issue of "pressure" too. I have no idea if magic flow can exert pressure and the pressure can cause strain in such a manner.
How about changing concepts? What if it's the recepticle in the familiar that controls the flow? What if it's designed only to accept x units of energy, so excess stays with the master?

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Frankly, except for the trust thing, I don't see why it shouldn't be one of the former instead of the latter
You and that trust thing again. I've been asking whether it's even technically possible or not. Your argument is it must be or else things could get dire for the familiar. Do you have any support for that from canon? What's the minimum energy level to let a familiar keep a chibi-form like Arf assuming no combat activities?
We've been arguing over analogies, do you have anything more concrete than that?

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Yes, they should be doing that, but they were probably respecting Fate's wishes
Do remember that, prior to StrikerS, she wasn't limited and Arf was already in small form, so Fate had access to the majority of her powers, which she put to good use for the Bureau. Where was the need for Arf then?
And if the Bureau did do something like this, you can bet Arf won't be anywhere near RF6 to support it in case of an attack. If they did that, they might as well remove Fate's limiter and put Arf in RF6, since that defeats the whole point of the allocation system. So, if limiters work the way you say they must and Arf returns to the Bureau. She still won't be available to defend RF6 in the event of an attack.

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Did you forget the whole part about how using LB would basically mean the end of her participation in the mission and that was the reason for her reluctance?
Must have missed it, where's that?

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you want to improve your CoF even for a brief period, because you can then save ammunition in the back end - the Soviets had entire tables that estimate how many shells you could save while reaching destruction norms by pouring on the shells fast.
What's CoF? Not a match for the US attitude, it's better to spend shells to save lives; than to spend lives to save shells. Pouring extra destruction on your targets to make sure they're down is better than pouring just enough and finding out it wasn't.

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Her victory was fast, but so's that of a 100m sprinter. It was not necessarily easy.
If her victory came earlier, it would have been still as complete, would it not?

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I meant to say that the way you want to stretch out that timeline, there will be enough time eked out for them to walk there before the attackers arrive, not that they won't RUN.
I don't want to stretch out the timeline. I don't see how it can be stretched. Jail's forces are going to arrive in a set time no matter what RF6's defenders do. So their best option is to get everyone under cover as soon as possible. And the fastest way to do that is to stay in the base!

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The principle of convoying assumes that, given that a bunch of "lambs" are going to make their way through a danger zone, perhaps for strategic reasons (transport of war materials, say) or tactical (because a position not very far away is much more defensible - as I'll argue is the case here),
We keep trying to tell you, the field is not a short distance away! Check eps3, 8, 16 and a few others to get a sense of the field's location relative to the base buildings. Put those calculation skills that you're so proud of to use and give us the distance from the buildings to the field. First, there's open ground to the stairs, there's got to be two or three hundred meters of that. Then there's the narrow causeway from the bottom of the stairs to the field itself, which appears to be another hundred meters or two. Heck, if Jail's forces clue in to where RF6's personnel are trying to flee to, they could just blow that causeway and deny it to them. Once hostiles are detected approching the base, what defenders will assume that said hostiles won't attack anyone they see?

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Depending on when they can run, they'll be briefly in more danger, but safer once they hit the field.
That "briefly" will be long enough for everyone to fall to the drones. Or the causeway will get blown. They'll never make it to the field.

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They'll have to get in LOS first.
Drones and Cyborgs fly in, they see people gathering outside the buildings, why won't they have LOS?

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Besides, IIRC you said that they didn't know Vivio was a target. Given this, why do you think they realize Vivio might attract enemies like moth & fire?
I don't understand what you're trying to say, it doesn't matter that RF6 doesn't realise Vivio's importance to Jail, but his Cyborgs certainly should. Although they took their time to find her after taking down Shamal and Zafira, don't you think they'd do something if she was brought out to them like on a silver platter? They can't be that dumb, right?

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We have the time provided by the show, or you can go by the actual show time.
The time provided by the show doesn't cover the complete battle. Actual show time can be only a portion of the complete duration of events, courtesy of timecuts. Like how an eight hour siege can be packed into one 24-minute episode of Gundam 00 season 1.

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Anyway, a long time means every phase lengthens, including the warning phase as Otto and Deed comes in. As that time lengthens, time available to evac lengthens, and it favors my proposal
What kind of math are you using? If O and D take 2 minutes from detection to arrival at RF 6 when the battle took 10 minutes, why would they suddenly need 4 minutes to arrive if the battle took 20 minutes? It seems more logical that O and D would use the same amount of time to arrive no matter how long the battle lasted. Then, the only question is how long did Shamal and Zafira last?

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By necessity, a lot of the infrastructure for the field is below the surface already. Start by moving any exposed PDSs underground as well.
Do you see any wires linking the field with the rest of the base anyway?

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But what pretext will he use to get the files?
He did conduct an audit or inquiry on them after ep12, remember?

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That's why there must be something strong in it somewhere. If you had seen a wall with such wierd properties in real life, I'll argue that's one of the only ways to square the circle.
It didn't help matters when you said the Middies might actually like crumbly buildings because they can "easily repair" them after damage like fights or hailstorms. You suggested they may have hit non-support structures before, why didn't you stick to that line instead of using this insanity?

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They have to recognize it is Vivio, and since Otto and Deed's first plan was to hide in the bushes until the enemy is worn-down, it'll be up to the not very smart Gadgets to figure that out.
Don't you think O and D, or even Uno and Quattro will be watching the drones' feeds? Do you think they go, "nah, we can pick her up later." when they see her right there for the taking?

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Besides, as I've argued previously, while against the entire spectrum of attacks the shield is probably more effective, against AMF enemies (which RF6 faces a whole lot), the equation would change, due to their poor (non-existent?) performance against pseudomatter and the increased depth, which ensures even if they melt through they have to keep repeating the procedure.
At the end there, they were facing more than just AMFs, the drones were shooting and so was Otto. Besides, if they had the budget, do you think they would sink it into adding defenses to the training field or their own buildings instead? Any energy-based defense could be more robust because it'll be a big generator for just a small space.

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So instead you have the field pull double-duty.
The trouble with including additional things into your defensive arrangements is that you cannot afford them failing when you need them. A mere training field can be shut down in the event of malfunction and fixed at leisure, a true defense system cannot. A proper defensive system would have multiple redundancies to keep it going in the event one part went down. Take a look at the size of the field, adding that degree of redundancy to the thing would be like buying two or three of them.

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At least I'm just expanding it from what is certainly known, and we already arguably are seeing a case of this.
The scale's much larger than I'm willing to accept without more concrete evidence. We're talking like a three to four thousandfold increase in capability between barrier jackets and a whole city, at least.

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Can you show why you think they can make the physic adjustments that quickly, and why you prefer this system,
No I can't, I just find it to be less mind-boggling than generating an entire city. Supercomputers, I can accept with their mastery of AI. Mass-generation of pseudomatter on that scale implies capabilities that I'm not convinced have been shown in the series before. Not only in construction, but think of what such capability could mean on the small scale as well. Take the humble cup, no need to worry about spills with a pseudomatter cup that automatically forms a lid. Or a pseudomatter "multitool" that can become any piece of equipment a person needs.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, the attack actually hit awhile after they are clearly under attack, so by moving fast, they might actually (depending on the total length of attack) get out before the first drones arrive.
We told you, there's no way they can get all the people assembled in time. Even if they did have time to assemble, the field's so far away, they'd never make it across in time. Holding out in the building is the better option.

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Anytime you actually fight, this has the chance to happen. With your defeatist attitude, I'll suggest yet another alternative - don't fight at all. Simply have everyone go on a nice picnic. Sure, GF and RF6 HQ would be trashed when they get back, but at least no one will get hurt, and no one would be "lost".
Cute, did I annoy you to the point where you threw out a snarky insult instead of an organised disection? I thought you were better than that.
BTW, even if they did that, they'd still get hit. Jail's getting his prizes that day and he has enough resources to do it.

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They can try.
They'll have a good chance of succeeding. The tunnels beneath HQ offer so many places for collapses.

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Actually, they still can.
In the original episode, both sides disengaged to handle other tasks. This time, the side that disengages will be pursued by the other. With no other priorities, I think both sides are going to try to pound each other until they're as flat as possible.

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So there seems little justification in your statement up there like their loss is a done deal.
The Numbers have one advantage in this battle, the Forwards never fought them before and have no idea of their capabilities. Their success in ep21 was due to the experience and training since the GFHQ battle, which doesn't exist here. Another thing is the Forwards' devices weren't fully unlocked at this time as well. So maybe their defeat isn't a done deal, but I think they're unlikely to get out of this one with less injuries than in the original, so that's still not so good. If the Numbers can isolate Ginga or Subaru from the rest, they have a good chance of capturing her while keeping the rest occupied. I think they might call in Sette to support Clinque while Nove and Wendi keep the remaining Forwards occupied.

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From that we can infer that a faster, more maneuverable fighter like Erio may be able to force her onto the defensive - and she doesn't seem able to attack and defend at the same time, thus suppressing those RDs.
That is if Erio at that time has enough power to do any damage to her.

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However, once that battle starts, it is doubtful that either Caro or Erio will pull out of the line.
I agree with that, but what if Erio and Caro are sent back to RF6's base before they engage the Numbers?
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-22, 00:52   Link #1796
arkhangelsk
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
And they're in charge of other units' personnel to that degree? If they could have her in the TSAB, they might as well have put her in RF6 and bump off one of the Forwards.
Obviously, you were supposed to place her in a friendly unit, like the 108 Battalion (who certainly wouldn't mind another A-AAA that they can put to use until the time comes).

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Once again, you take analogies too literally. But I have to admit, not long after writing that, I got concerned about the issue of "pressure" too. I have no idea if magic flow can exert pressure and the pressure can cause strain in such a manner.
How about changing concepts? What if it's the recepticle in the familiar that controls the flow? What if it's designed only to accept x units of energy, so excess stays with the master?
How would it be "designed" to accept x units of energy. That's a faucet-equivalent, with all the problems previously stated.

As to whether something similar to pressure and choked flow occurs, by the way, we have limited evidence that it does. Let's go back to Ep9 of the original (you know, the one where they split the JSes b/w them). Fate expended a large percentage of her "tank" to blast the water with lightning, and thereafter she had trouble even flying. This indicates that below a certain percentage (mana pressure), channelable flow is reduced drastically. But it is clearly not a unchoked flow system (near 1:1 correlation between pressure and power) across the pressure range, because Nanoha was apparently able to rejuvenate Fate by using only a fraction of her reserves, WITHOUT affecting her own output or even feeling particular fatigue. Given their magical capacities are broadly comparable, most probably, Nanoha recharged Fate's "mana tank" pressures until they were above the limits of choked flow, restoring her ability to fire at (or nearly at) full power, without depleting her own beyond that point. Aah, the fun of magical plumbing!

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You and that trust thing again. I've been asking whether it's even technically possible or not. Your argument is it must be or else things could get dire for the familiar. Do you have any support for that from canon? What's the minimum energy level to let a familiar keep a chibi-form like Arf assuming no combat activities?
We've been arguing over analogies, do you have anything more concrete than that?
It isn't like you have anything better as far as I can see. However, I think I've been fairly successful in saying that my architecture is overall simpler, more flexible and healthier for the familiar. I've yet to see a real advantage to your constantly evolving systems. So you are basically arguing for a less effective and less robust architecture. Shouldn't it be you that come up with something that 1) explicitly shows they use this less efficient architecture or 2) some reasons why they'll use this architecture. Since the only thing you seem to have put up is that whole control argument, I'm bombing it.

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Do remember that, prior to StrikerS, she wasn't limited and Arf was already in small form, so Fate had access to the majority of her powers, which she put to good use for the Bureau. Where was the need for Arf then?
And if the Bureau did do something like this, you can bet Arf won't be anywhere near RF6 to support it in case of an attack. If they did that, they might as well remove Fate's limiter and put Arf in RF6, since that defeats the whole point of the allocation system. So, if limiters work the way you say they must and Arf returns to the Bureau. She still won't be available to defend RF6 in the event of an attack.
That's why I propose the trick of placing her NEARBY. The whole thing about the limiters was explicitly to get past the whole allocation system anyway.

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Must have missed it, where's that?
You know, that part about Ep21 or so where she finished a brief skirmish with Tre and Sette, landed on her knees, clearly winded, and pondering whether to use her LB. Shortly after, Jail shows up, like any good villain.

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What's CoF? Not a match for the US attitude, it's better to spend shells to save lives; than to spend lives to save shells. Pouring extra destruction on your targets to make sure they're down is better than pouring just enough and finding out it wasn't.
Correlation of Force.

Actually, Soviet destruction norms tend to be higher than American (annihilate/destroy is >60% destruction vs 30% and suppression is 30% to 10%). Thus it was the butt of certain tasteless American jokes about how Russian fire destruction guarantee (the latter apparently also being a quirk of the Russian word obpeschenie (sp?), which can mean support, but also guarantee) maneuver, while American fire support support maneuver.

The point here anyway is that under normal conditions, YES, she would have used the LB and she'll have saved power on the back end. That she didn't, assuming it wasn't because of idiocy, is because of strains so high the benefits of the rule dissolve.

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If her victory came earlier, it would have been still as complete, would it not?
And she'll still have been incapable of moving, at least by her own estimate.

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I don't want to stretch out the timeline. I don't see how it can be stretched. Jail's forces are going to arrive in a set time no matter what RF6's defenders do. So their best option is to get everyone under cover as soon as possible. And the fastest way to do that is to stay in the base!
I meant to say that if you assume that the whole battle took longer, then every phase is likely to have taken longer. There is little reason to assume just the hold out phases extended. Anyway, the difference in quality of cover is significant in this case, which also affects survivability, kind of like withdrawing from hasty positions to prepared positions a few minutes away.

[quot]We keep trying to tell you, the field is not a short distance away! Check eps3, 8, 16 and a few others to get a sense of the field's location relative to the base buildings. Put those calculation skills that you're so proud of to use and give us the distance from the buildings to the field. First, there's open ground to the stairs, there's got to be two or three hundred meters of that. Then there's the narrow causeway from the bottom of the stairs to the field itself, which appears to be another hundred meters or two. Heck, if Jail's forces clue in to where RF6's personnel are trying to flee to, they could just blow that causeway and deny it to them. Once hostiles are detected approching the base, what defenders will assume that said hostiles won't attack anyone they see?[/quote]

OK, let's say it is 500m. Let's say they average 100 meters per minute, one sixth of the rate of a world class runner and HALF the speed of a Soviet assault drill (which is about 200 meters per minute, NOT on a nice paved causeway, and these drills may include dismounts so the dismounts presumably can run a few hundred meters at that speed - I'm not demanding any insane rates of advance here). It can be done in 5 minutes of exposure. If you think that they are going to hold out for like 2 hours in the original, surely, they can manage 5 minutes of this.

As I said, short scenarios are actually more favorable for your argument in this overall.

Blow the causeway. Mmm, they can try, but seeing that even Otto didn't manage to cause a lot of damage to that highway surface in Ep21 (I still remember my groan at that scene), one must wonder whether they can do so.

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That "briefly" will be long enough for everyone to fall to the drones. Or the causeway will get blown. They'll never make it to the field.
I must wonder. What happens to your faith in Shamal and Zafira's defensive capabilities when I ask them to take everyone across the field.

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Drones and Cyborgs fly in, they see people gathering outside the buildings, why won't they have LOS?
Because there are a bunch of them and hopefully Aina won't be on the edges. So the Gadgets view-ins are constantly obscured by other people.

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I don't understand what you're trying to say, it doesn't matter that RF6 doesn't realise Vivio's importance to Jail, but his Cyborgs certainly should. Although they took their time to find her after taking down Shamal and Zafira, don't you think they'd do something if she was brought out to them like on a silver platter? They can't be that dumb, right?
I wouldn't call it dumb. What they actually did implies the slant of their thinking - they have enough time, and they, not being as expendable as a bunch of Gadgets, presumably want to stay unhurt by waiting for the drones to finish the attrition process. Which is actually reasonable, but such calculations would be the same even if they did see Vivio - they can always go grab her after the drones wear the defenders out like in the original battle. So it is not justified to say they'll just leap for her if they saw her - it might happen but IMO nothing in what they actually did suggests it is particularly likely.

And again, the fact RF6 does not recognize the importance of Vivio means whatever they are thinking, it won't be, "If we let them see Vivio, they'll all come hell for broke just for her."

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The time provided by the show doesn't cover the complete battle. Actual show time can be only a portion of the complete duration of events, courtesy of timecuts. Like how an eight hour siege can be packed into one 24-minute episode of Gundam 00 season 1.
Maybe, but then, all segments can be stretched.

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What kind of math are you using? If O and D take 2 minutes from detection to arrival at RF 6 when the battle took 10 minutes, why would they suddenly need 4 minutes to arrive if the battle took 20 minutes? It seems more logical that O and D would use the same amount of time to arrive no matter how long the battle lasted. Then, the only question is how long did Shamal and Zafira last?
The time it takes for O and D to fly in depends on their initial point for run in, which we don't know, and their speed, which IMO can't be estimated with real confidence from the little we are shown. We can only work it out if we assume the scenes don't have huge cutoffs in them. However, if you break both the provided timeframe of <20 minutes and the timeframe provided by the show itself to insert timeskips, you can substantiate any skip. For example, I can even say that Otto and Deed had a large timeskip which caused them to hit the base after 30 minutes from when they first had them, while Shamal and Zafira don't get extra timeskips and collapse in the same 10 minutes.

If anything, the idea that Otto and Deed took a bit of time to fly over has limited support in that Griffiths actually tried calling for help. We all know the TSAB's response times, and they won't get any better in the confusion of an attack vs GF HQ. So, if Griffiths isn't just calling for help for show, one has to assume there is a nice long time (certainly more than ~5 minutes) before they get hit. That limited support, while thin, is more than what Shamal and Zafira get.

So, if we are going to do this timecut extension thing at all, the only reasonably dispute-free and fair way is to assume all parts expanded more or less equally. You want to say Z&S fought for 20 minutes instead of 10, fine but then O&D took 4 minutes to arrive instead of 2.

Personally, I prefer just using the provided timings, even though actually that's bad for my idea.

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Do you see any wires linking the field with the rest of the base anyway?
Good, they are buried and hard to take out.

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It didn't help matters when you said the Middies might actually like crumbly buildings because they can "easily repair" them after damage like fights or hailstorms. You suggested they may have hit non-support structures before, why didn't you stick to that line instead of using this insanity?
IIRC, I said that they might prefer them because external crumbliness may enhance survivability with magical accidents and accept the price of more repairs (even if they may be easy) for this survivability (stress on human lives, not material), not that they like them because they can be easily repaired anyway!

Anyway, I don't mind the non-support pillar theory too, but Keroko insisted otherwise - that's when it evolved to these soft outside, hard at heart pillars. Not to mention that even a non-support pillar might want some strength from a hard core.

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Don't you think O and D, or even Uno and Quattro will be watching the drones' feeds? Do you think they go, "nah, we can pick her up later." when they see her right there for the taking?
If they go now, they risk getting hurt. Sure, Vivio's a big prize, but it is obvious from Otto and Deed's actual actions that unless it was clear they had no other choice, they are willing to play it safe with their bodies rather than try a hasty attack where they risk being hurt themselves.

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At the end there, they were facing more than just AMFs, the drones were shooting and so was Otto. Besides, if they had the budget, do you think they would sink it into adding defenses to the training field or their own buildings instead? Any energy-based defense could be more robust because it'll be a big generator for just a small space.
You are ignoring the value of depth in defense. GF HQ had the precise arrangement you suggested. Even counting the fact that Cinque broke a generator, it is hard to avoid the conclusion of "Fat lot of good it did them."

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The trouble with including additional things into your defensive arrangements is that you cannot afford them failing when you need them. A mere training field can be shut down in the event of malfunction and fixed at leisure, a true defense system cannot. A proper defensive system would have multiple redundancies to keep it going in the event one part went down. Take a look at the size of the field, adding that degree of redundancy to the thing would be like buying two or three of them.
Well, surely, seeing that the options were between the naked building and a naked building with a training field (w/ limited defensive capacity) surrounding it, isn't it clear that the latter provides more redundancy and protection?

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The scale's much larger than I'm willing to accept without more concrete evidence. We're talking like a three to four thousandfold increase in capability between barrier jackets and a whole city, at least.
Such warm thoughts disappear when expanding illusions beyond what we've seen (even Quattro's Silver Curtain only create a few hundred relatively human-sized decoys, nothing close to a whole city), and adding a highly realistic complex of forcefields and binds to it to boot!

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No I can't, I just find it to be less mind-boggling than generating an entire city. Supercomputers, I can accept with their mastery of AI. Mass-generation of pseudomatter on that scale implies capabilities that I'm not convinced have been shown in the series before. Not only in construction, but think of what such capability could mean on the small scale as well. Take the humble cup, no need to worry about spills with a pseudomatter cup that automatically forms a lid. Or a pseudomatter "multitool" that can become any piece of equipment a person needs.
Actually, Acous did seem to have made a cake out of nowhere... pseudomatter cake, yummy!

As for the pseudomatter "multitool", wasn't that called a Device?

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We told you, there's no way they can get all the people assembled in time. Even if they did have time to assemble, the field's so far away, they'd never make it across in time. Holding out in the building is the better option.
That's if 1) Shamal and Zafira don't find protection of a relatively limited length of people EASIER than protecting the length of the building and 2) they didn't just have time, even in a long scenario, to just run for the field before the first attackers hit.

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Cute, did I annoy you to the point where you threw out a snarky insult instead of an organised disection? I thought you were better than that.
BTW, even if they did that, they'd still get hit. Jail's getting his prizes that day and he has enough resources to do it.
He can't get his prizes if he doesn't know where they are.

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They'll have a good chance of succeeding. The tunnels beneath HQ offer so many places for collapses.
But they'll have to arrange the collapse so they actually isolate the party, rather than isolating the enemy from them.

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In the original episode, both sides disengaged to handle other tasks. This time, the side that disengages will be pursued by the other. With no other priorities, I think both sides are going to try to pound each other until they're as flat as possible.
OK, you got a point here.

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The Numbers have one advantage in this battle, the Forwards never fought them before and have no idea of their capabilities.
Their abilities aren't really all that special - more or less standard Mid or Neo-Belkan fare equivalent. That small advantage is almost certain not to be able to dissolve the advantage of them being able to fight as a team instead of being separated.

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Their success in ep21 was due to the experience and training since the GFHQ battle, which doesn't exist here.
One week's training does not turn defeat into victory, not in real life, unless of course it is one of say 1-2 weeks of training you got but this is not the case.

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Another thing is the Forwards' devices weren't fully unlocked at this time as well. So maybe their defeat isn't a done deal, but I think they're unlikely to get out of this one with less injuries than in the original, so that's still not so good.
More important than that is the ability to actually cause some hurt into the Numbers. In the actual battle, they only clipped Cinque, and that only because Subaru went berserk (and Cinque didn't make good use of maneuver for some reason). If they all got hurt, BUT they manage to capture or damage a few of the Numbers, Jail won't be able to put his plan into action next week, and they can use that time to heal and go in with more initiative.

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If the Numbers can isolate Ginga or Subaru from the rest, they have a good chance of capturing her while keeping the rest occupied. I think they might call in Sette to support Clinque while Nove and Wendi keep the remaining Forwards occupied.
But Sette is having fun with Fate, and since you've already granted that the Aces and Vice-Captains are all outside, it is hard to believe Sette can just dodge into the building without being pursued, as you say.

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That is if Erio at that time has enough power to do any damage to her.
All he needs to do is keep her on the defensive, so she can't shift to Attack and use the Rumble Detonators.

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I agree with that, but what if Erio and Caro are sent back to RF6's base before they engage the Numbers?
Well then we'll talk about it when we audit!
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-12-22, 14:42   Link #1797
Jimmy C
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Obviously, you were supposed to place her in a friendly unit, like the 108 Battalion
And how would any of them have the power to choose where Arf would get assigned? That's what I've been trying to ask!

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How would it be "designed" to accept x units of energy.
Aah, the fun of magical plumbing!
Tank sucks as an analogy. After some discussions, I'm putting forth a new one. What if it's a pool, not a tank? And Fate and Arf have seperate "pumps" to access it for their use. So, any changes to Fate's use of her output will have no effects on Arf. In a way, this appears to support you contention that it's possible to limit Fate's magic output without limiting Arf's but consider the following even if that was the case:
If Arf is a TSAB trooper/officer, then RF6 would most definitely not have control of her deployments while RF6 is in existence and the limiters are in effect. Rank allocations and all that, remember? Therefore Arf will most certainly not be available to help out when the base comes under attack.
If Arf is not in the TSAB, then there's no reason for the TSAB to allow her to be more powerful than Fate, is there? After all, that power isn't doing them any good anyway.
You position depends on Arf being unlimited while Fate is and somehow being near RF6 when the attack goes down. Arf can't do any good unless both those conditions are fulfilled.

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You know, that part about Ep21 or so where she finished a brief skirmish with Tre and Sette, landed on her knees, clearly winded, and pondering whether to use her LB. Shortly after, Jail shows up, like any good villain.
That part, ok. She was worried that she would not have anything left to deal with Jail, good thinking. Then Jail shows up and the tactical situation remains the same for her until she activated her LB. Had she done it the moment Jail was in range, the results would still be the same, only they happen earlier.

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And she'll still have been incapable of moving, at least by her own estimate.
She said that she would be unable to help the others, not that she wouldn't be able to move.

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I meant to say that if you assume that the whole battle took longer, then every phase is likely to have taken longer.
That's not set in stone. When the hostiles (whatever they were) were detected heading for RF6, they were a certain distance away at a certain speed. That means they would arrive at a set time regardless of however long the subsequent battle lasted.

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Anyway, the difference in quality of cover is significant in this case, which also affects survivability, kind of like withdrawing from hasty positions to prepared positions a few minutes away.
"Hastily prepared positions" are a couple of sandbags piled in front of you. RF6 has a nice building, probably with a shelter in the basement. The field is more of a hastily prepared position in this case than the base.

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It can be done in 5 minutes of exposure.
Assuming everyone was outside the building and ready to go the instant hostiles were detected mere minutes away. Assuming further that no one trips, lags or panics on the way (the housekeeping staff are civilians, you know).
What defender would assume they had minutes to shift positions when hostiles are also minutes away? If the hostiles were hours or days away, maybe, but minutes would be too close to call.

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Blow the causeway. Mmm, they can try, but seeing that even Otto didn't manage to cause a lot of damage to that highway surface in Ep21 (I still remember my groan at that scene), one must wonder whether they can do so.
Two things, one, Otto blasted some big holes in the RF6 building in ep17. Compare its form before and after she shot it. So yes, she can do damage.
Second, do remember than magic can have limited (even no) physical destructiveness. Although I have no idea why she would use purely magical damage in that attack, it's not an impossibility. Besides, if Otto's not enough, have Lutecia throw in a Jiraioh to shake it to pieces.

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What happens to your faith in Shamal and Zafira's defensive capabilities when I ask them to take everyone across the field.
Since neither are shield experts, I have grave doubts about their ability to cover a bunch of moving people. Maybe Shamal can maintain her shields while moving (I have no idea) but Zafira has to stand still to shoot those white blades of his. Otherwise, he has to run at the drones to claw them one at a time.
Actually I'm wondering how much of a fight did Shamal and Zafira put up in ep17 anyway. When you see them, they're already on their knees and drones are even inside the building already.

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Because there are a bunch of them and hopefully Aina won't be on the edges. So the Gadgets view-ins are constantly obscured by other people.
Not that obscured if there are drones above the people. She's the smallest Besides, if RF6 is abandoning their base, it'll be quite clear that Vivio is somewhere in that bunch of people leaving the premises.

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So it is not justified to say they'll just leap for her if they saw her - it might happen but IMO nothing in what they actually did suggests it is particularly likely.
They won't have to leap for her themselves straightaway. They'd have the drones mass their attacks on the people leaving the base. That will slow their progress to the field down to a crawl. Long enough to wear down Shamal and Zafira's defenses. Then Otto and Deed will move in. Since everyone's out in the open, they'll be completely defenseless the instant Shamal and Zafira are out of it.

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If anything, the idea that Otto and Deed took a bit of time to fly over has limited support in that Griffiths actually tried calling for help.
It does not. The standard to reaction to facing overwhelming force is to call for assistance. Regardless of the fact that it might not arrive in time. Is Griffiths supposed to think, "They'll never get here before the hostiles arrive. There's no point in calling for help."?

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You are ignoring the value of depth in defense.
And you are putting that depth in the wrong place. It should be around their base, not a distant training field.

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isn't it clear that the latter provides more redundancy and protection?
No, it isn't when the clear possibility of it being disabled exists. There are two ways this can go. One, let's say the field isn't part of the base's defensive arrangements, yet the RF6 personnel decide to evac to it anyway. Kind of insane in this case, but we'll go along for now. Then, all Otto and Deed have to do is find the OFF command for the field, which shouldn't be too difficult with no one hindering them.
Two, let's assume they planned on using the field all along. Then its command systems may be protected by anti tampering systems. Why, the defenders may even be able to fend off hack attacks while within the field. But remember, Jail somehow had detailed knowledge on GFHQ's defenses, why won't he he have the same for RF6? He did a lot of planning for his attacks that day, why would he have only details on one of his two targets but not the other? If he does have the details for RF6's defenses, then the Cyborgs would have all they need to know to shut down the field. There's also the fact that the generator for the field would be emitting a huge signature, wherever it is. They can track that down and destroy it. Even if it's buried and sealed (which would make it impossible to maintain, highly unlikely) They can send Sein to sabotage it. At worse, they can have Sein bring Clinque to blow it up, even if the generator was under the field. That would probably zero out Jail's chances of catching a Type-0, but Vivio is a bigger target. Compromises.
Even if they somehow make it into the field and hide before any hostiles arrive, Lutecia can remote summon drones all over the field to quickly search for the people. They'll quickly narrow down locations because either there will be resistance in those places, or the people are undefended while the defenders are putting up a decoy defense elsewhere.
Your position requires that Jail's forces have no way of disabling the field, a tough claim considering how throughly they disabled GFHQ. You also assume they can reach the field quickly through hostile fire, even possibly unimpeded, but there's no way they can have enough time to get anywhere near the field before coming under attack.

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Such warm thoughts disappear when expanding illusions beyond what we've seen (even Quattro's Silver Curtain only create a few hundred relatively human-sized decoys, nothing close to a whole city), and adding a highly realistic complex of forcefields and binds to it to boot!
Do remember that Quattro's only one person while the field is several city blocks in size. If the whole surface is embedded with projectors, casters and computers, I think it's possible.

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Actually, Acous did seem to have made a cake out of nowhere... pseudomatter cake, yummy!
Wasn't it implied that he had made it earlier and tucked it away? A good explaination for most of their supposed feats with pseudomatter actually, but it doesn't explain things like Barrier Jackets unfortunately.

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As for the pseudomatter "multitool", wasn't that called a Device?
Have you ever seen Nanoha using RH as a screwdriver or a wrench?

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He can't get his prizes if he doesn't know where they are.
Don't tell me you're serious, I thought you were kidding about that picnic idea.

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But they'll have to arrange the collapse so they actually isolate the party, rather than isolating the enemy from them.
You want to say that's impossible? Just fight them until they seperate some, then bring down the celling between them. It's not that hard for the Cyborgs to arrange for themselves to be on the side they want. If they can injure Tia and one of the Nakajima sisters enough to slow them down slightly, then pull the distance with the remaining one, this can work. Then they pound on her until she's disabled.

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If they all got hurt, BUT they manage to capture or damage a few of the Numbers, Jail won't be able to put his plan into action next week, and they can use that time to heal and go in with more initiative.
If they all got hurt, then they likely lost at least one Nakajima sister. Since the Numbers have Sein, there's no way any of them can be captured. Unless they're hurt as badly as Clinque, their repairs won't take long.

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But Sette is having fun with Fate,
Only if she's still outside when Fate goes into action. Maybe because of RF6's alternate deployments, they decided to send Sette with the group to capture a Type-0 right away.
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Old 2008-12-23, 08:59   Link #1798
arkhangelsk
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
And how would any of them have the power to choose where Arf would get assigned? That's what I've been trying to ask!
They don't. But they have senior friends. Here's a possible variant:
1) Put Arf in random HQ TSAB unit.
2) Get friend (Nakajima, the Principal, Acous ... don't they have OTHER friends as well?) to go ask for her in a similar vein Nanoha and Vita asked for Subaru and Teana. Since Arf is relatively elite in the mage rankings, the request would be reasonable.
3) Since the uppers are their friends, this transfer will be easily and quietly managed.
4) Arf stands by. In the meantime, she's useful to whatever unit she's been attached to.

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Tank sucks as an analogy. After some discussions, I'm putting forth a new one. What if it's a pool, not a tank?
What's the difference b/w a pool and a tank. When I think pool I think of the local swimming pool, which is just a bigger tank.

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And Fate and Arf have seperate "pumps" to access it for their use. So, any changes to Fate's use of her output will have no effects on Arf.
That's precisely what I proposed as option one in the previous answer, only without the pumps.

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If Arf is a TSAB trooper/officer, then RF6 would most definitely not have control of her deployments while RF6 is in existence and the limiters are in effect. Rank allocations and all that, remember? Therefore Arf will most certainly not be available to help out when the base comes under attack.
See top. The trick is not to place her in RF6, but close-by - its called connections.

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If Arf is not in the TSAB, then there's no reason for the TSAB to allow her to be more powerful than Fate, is there? After all, that power isn't doing them any good anyway.
Not really. As a civvie, the TSAB has no right to restrict her power. Besides, at least officially they are not using limiters for control, but only to ensure equitable distribution of mages. Given this, there is no basis for them to limit Arf.

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You position depends on Arf being unlimited while Fate is and somehow being near RF6 when the attack goes down. Arf can't do any good unless both those conditions are fulfilled.
This is kind of like saying for Scarlietti to have attacked, he must somehow know all about the GF HQ. This is the part where planning comes in to make coincidence become certainty.

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She said that she would be unable to help the others, not that she wouldn't be able to move.
So I exaggerated a bit. How about the substance? And yes, if she LBed faster, she might have finished faster, but she wished to preserve her opportunity. Hardly a non-understandable decision.

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That's not set in stone. When the hostiles (whatever they were) were detected heading for RF6, they were a certain distance away at a certain speed. That means they would arrive at a set time regardless of however long the subsequent battle lasted.
Except that we don't have much clue of the "certain" in your sentence. The only thing we have is the time, and if you release the lock by allowing timecuts, then the time is unclear. By assuming a larger distance or slower speed, you can say almost anything.

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"Hastily prepared positions" are a couple of sandbags piled in front of you. RF6 has a nice building, probably with a shelter in the basement. The field is more of a hastily prepared position in this case than the base.
Should have chosen "unprepared positions".

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Assuming everyone was outside the building and ready to go the instant hostiles were detected mere minutes away. Assuming further that no one trips, lags or panics on the way (the housekeeping staff are civilians, you know).
Weren't they nominally members of the TSAB? Don't they have basic training?

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Two things, one, Otto blasted some big holes in the RF6 building in ep17. Compare its form before and after she shot it. So yes, she can do damage.
Big holes? There was a nice explosion and lots of smoke, ahh, OK, we see them in Ep18. Let's see ... one really big (3 floors and a bit, call the floors 3 meters high, slant of building wall ~45 degrees ... Pythagorean's theorem ... call it a ~13 m wide hole, perhaps a bit more) hole near the side with a lot of windows (read: relatively weak) and the wall itself is clearly quite thin..., but other holes are a fraction of the size, which implies the big hole was the result of either multiple shots later, or is the effect of a secondary collapse.

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Second, do remember than magic can have limited (even no) physical destructiveness. Although I have no idea why she would use purely magical damage in that attack, it's not an impossibility.
As I understand it, part of the whole hype of magic is that it can be set for "limited physical destructiveness", and "mass weapons" can't. But your attitude that failure to understand the psychology of something does not equate a physical impossibility is laudable - it is something many fail to understand.

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Besides, if Otto's not enough, have Lutecia throw in a Jiraioh to shake it to pieces.
Oh, and because Lucie used the Jiraioh in the real attack. Have you considered that a plan that forces the enemy to use more force can already be considered an improvement?

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Since neither are shield experts, I have grave doubts about their ability to cover a bunch of moving people. Maybe Shamal can maintain her shields while moving (I have no idea) but Zafira has to stand still to shoot those white blades of his. Otherwise, he has to run at the drones to claw them one at a time.
Has Zafira heard of "fire and movement."

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Actually I'm wondering how much of a fight did Shamal and Zafira put up in ep17 anyway. When you see them, they're already on their knees and drones are even inside the building already.
Having exhausted the possibilities of extending the fight, now you want to shorten it?

Going by this, it says that the building is too extended a front to protect properly. It is not more defensible overall when your enemies pour around you and enter the building to slaughter. You sure they might not have done better protecting a smaller, actually defensible area?

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Not that obscured if there are drones above the people. She's the smallest Besides, if RF6 is abandoning their base, it'll be quite clear that Vivio is somewhere in that bunch of people leaving the premises.
Those drones are not that smart. Sure, if they see Vivio and can compare her face to a prerecorded profile. But Small = Vivio = Priority = Attack?

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They won't have to leap for her themselves straightaway. They'd have the drones mass their attacks on the people leaving the base. That will slow their progress to the field down to a crawl. Long enough to wear down Shamal and Zafira's defenses. Then Otto and Deed will move in. Since everyone's out in the open, they'll be completely defenseless the instant Shamal and Zafira are out of it.
If they mass together like that, they would be easier to take out too.

And they were pretty much defenseless anyway once Shamal and Zafira were out of it. Any survivability they bought is entirely due to the lack of enthusiasm on Otto and Deed's part.

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It does not. The standard to reaction to facing overwhelming force is to call for assistance. Regardless of the fact that it might not arrive in time. Is Griffiths supposed to think, "They'll never get here before the hostiles arrive. There's no point in calling for help."?
Will your priority be calling for help when the enemy is going to hit you in 5, you'll definitely lose within 20, and the first hope is 60 (the last based on how long it took the air force to come up). Besides, if they send some random guys, it is likely they'll be sending moths to a fire. Still so cool on calling them? Also, I did say if he wasn't calling just for show.

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And you are putting that depth in the wrong place. It should be around their base, not a distant training field.
True. And combining the two is a way to do that. IIRC, that was what this little subportion was discussing

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No, it isn't when the clear possibility of it being disabled exists. There are two ways this can go. One, let's say the field isn't part of the base's defensive arrangements, yet the RF6 personnel decide to evac to it anyway. Kind of insane in this case, but we'll go along for now. Then, all Otto and Deed have to do is find the OFF command for the field, which shouldn't be too difficult with no one hindering them.
1) What happened to security.
2) Since we are discussing using it as a makeshift defensive system, let's go for the next paragraph. If this contingency was not studied beforehand, this says something too.

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Two, let's assume they planned on using the field all along. Then its command systems may be protected by anti tampering systems. Why, the defenders may even be able to fend off hack attacks while within the field. But remember, Jail somehow had detailed knowledge on GFHQ's defenses, why won't he he have the same for RF6? He did a lot of planning for his attacks that day, why would he have only details on one of his two targets but not the other?
Some Differences:
1) GFHQ was there for a very long time; RF6 for a few months.
2) GFHQ was run by his friends, he has far fewer friends that can help him with RF6.
3) GFHQ was ground reconnoitered by Sein and Cinque (I suspect a lot of the info really came through this channel). As far as we know, he didn't do a reconaissance on RF6.

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If he does have the details for RF6's defenses, then the Cyborgs would have all they need to know to shut down the field. There's also the fact that the generator for the field would be emitting a huge signature, wherever it is.
The system is clearly segmented into a bunch of more or less hexagonal units, and you assume one generator? What is this, Star Wars Galactic Empire and Plot Device Exhaust Port?

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They can track that down and destroy it. Even if it's buried and sealed (which would make it impossible to maintain, highly unlikely)
It is clearly buried. The field and causeway (also part of the field apparently, since it glows with the rest when activated) are surrounded by the sea itself.

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They can send Sein to sabotage it. At worse, they can have Sein bring Clinque to blow it up, even if the generator was under the field. That would probably zero out Jail's chances of catching a Type-0, but Vivio is a bigger target. Compromises.
Wow, Sein and Cinque? By the way, now he can't get a Type-0. Wasn't it you that said that if a plan can foul up at least one of Jail's objectives, it is a clear improvement?

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Even if they somehow make it into the field and hide before any hostiles arrive, Lutecia can remote summon drones all over the field to quickly search for the people. They'll quickly narrow down locations because either there will be resistance in those places, or the people are undefended while the defenders are putting up a decoy defense elsewhere.
1) Wow, because she did that in the real fight.
2) She had the right to do that with the building, and no matter how many drones she can bring to search, chances are better the larger the area is.

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Your position requires that Jail's forces have no way of disabling the field,
and yours that he has foreknowledge.

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You also assume they can reach the field quickly through hostile fire, even possibly unimpeded, but there's no way they can have enough time to get anywhere near the field before coming under attack.
That depends on the scenario chosen, and further as you've pointed out, the building was beyond their ability to protect, so technically you can say they weren't really protecting anybody - they were killing a section of drones but the rest (and Otto and Deed had they so wished) are free to pour into the building. Given that, wouldn't a convoy that at least they can protect the full length of be a better bet?

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Do remember that Quattro's only one person while the field is several city blocks in size. If the whole surface is embedded with projectors, casters and computers, I think it's possible.
So when you are hitting my idea, it is one generator. When this is your idea, there are projectors (redundancy). Anyway, such an argument works equally well for pseudomatter theories, PLUS you don't have to expand in the qualitative section to create realistic forcefields.

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Have you ever seen Nanoha using RH as a screwdriver or a wrench?
OK, so they aren't infinitely flexible. How does that change the fact they have several forms?

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You want to say that's impossible? Just fight them until they seperate some, then bring down the celling between them. It's not that hard for the Cyborgs to arrange for themselves to be on the side they want.
That's easy. The hard part is to ensure that only those you want are on your side as well.

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Only if she's still outside when Fate goes into action. Maybe because of RF6's alternate deployments, they decided to send Sette with the group to capture a Type-0 right away.
In which case, Tre and Zest gets into about a 5:2. Somehow, I just don't see them getting out of this in one piece, and because they are fighting mostly in the air and over larger distances than in a ground fight, they can't even hope Sein will come rescue them.
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Old 2008-12-23, 23:01   Link #1799
Bacta456
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What's the difference b/w a pool and a tank. When I think pool I think of the local swimming pool, which is just a bigger tank.
Given context, what he was trying to say was:
Assumption: A reservoir of sufficient size relative to the things drawing upon it that the effect either has on the others ability to draw energy is negligible.

He may not have articulated it as well as could be done, but the meaning was clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Not really. As a civvie, the TSAB has no right to restrict her power. Besides, at least officially they are not using limiters for control, but only to ensure equitable distribution of mages. Given this, there is no basis for them to limit Arf.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the TSAB not the Time & Space Administration Bureau thereby inherently implying authority in regulating such matters? Not to mention why would a governmental entity limit their own forces, but not the civilians if they were going to go to the trouble to do so? Does that not create a potential security issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Except that we don't have much clue of the "certain" in your sentence. The only thing we have is the time, and if you release the lock by allowing timecuts, then the time is unclear. By assuming a larger distance or slower speed, you can say almost anything.
I note a lack of justification of your assumptions there, sir. You seem to have things backwards. The goal of science is to develop ever better models approximating the inherently ordely behavior of the universe and putting it to useful purposes. Someone who believes that their belief of how the world should operate defines how it does operate is following the philosophy of magic and has no business touching equations with a 50' pole.

Without valid assumptions defining a valid model all your doing with equations is showing you're willing to flout GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). They say that if you start out with an invalid assumption you can prove anything for a reason, sir. If you want to draw conclusions on behavior you need to be vastly more rigorous, and humble then what this quote shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Have you considered that a plan that forces the enemy to use more force can already be considered an improvement?
If you have to explain it you should probably explain it, sir.

A strike package needs to designed to go through a targets defenses and accomplish an objective. Thoe more defenses they have to deal with the more resources, and resources to support those resources they will require. This adds an extra layer of discouragement to attack due to requiring more resources.

In practice SAMs and AA fire that has forced aircraft to waste too much fuel avoiding to get to the target and back safely is also a implementation of the principle.

Fortifications don't make a peaceful populace exactly have the warm fuzzies about you, which is a concern regarding having a base, period. Plus there's resource concerns for the defender and the inevitable problem that if writers make a place impenetratable, they can't exactly have it attacked now can they? Are you arguing it was a bad story device and poorly implemented?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Has Zafira heard of "fire and movement."
Again if there's a question, explain. I had to check, because I thought you were talking about Shoot and Scoot with it phrased like that.

Fire and Maneuver involves suppression fire to keep the enemies head down due to threat they'll be a head shorter if they don't, while you send other parts of your squad into a position to take the guy out.

You're talking about doing this with two people, that aren't exactly up to snuff and are having to cover a large retreat, and you see no issues with that? Do we fight wars as individuals, sir?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Will your priority be calling for help when the enemy is going to hit you in 5, you'll definitely lose within 20, and the first hope is 60 (the last based on how long it took the air force to come up). Besides, if they send some random guys, it is likely they'll be sending moths to a fire. Still so cool on calling them? Also, I did say if he wasn't calling just for show.
Holding action is kind of standard practice for that kind of situation. Leyte Gulf mean anything to you?
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Old 2008-12-23, 23:53   Link #1800
arkhangelsk
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacta456 View Post
Given context, what he was trying to say was:
Assumption: A reservoir of sufficient size relative to the things drawing upon it that the effect either has on the others ability to draw energy is negligible.
Thanks for the clarification. Nevertheless, it has very little effect on the argument because we are already assuming choked flow situations where the conditions (pressure ... etc) in the tank / pool are sufficient that an additional draw won't significantly interfere with the first (until the tank / pool runs nearly dry).

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the TSAB not the Time & Space Administration Bureau thereby inherently implying authority in regulating such matters? Not to mention why would a governmental entity limit their own forces, but not the civilians if they were going to go to the trouble to do so? Does that not create a potential security issue?
That depends on whether you think the government has the "authority" to put a shackle onto your foot, because it is the "government".

One has to remember that when it comes to most freedoms, a free government can generally put tighter limits on its own personnel than to civvies.

Also, at least publicly, even the limiters on personnel are not a control or security measure, but as a means to partially circumvent rules that are meant to ensure equitable distribution of talent among units, and are not a common measure. If anything, they are arguably employed as an "anti-control" device in a sense. So why would they shackle one on Arf?

I'm not saying they can't (probably citing "security" or something), but the very act will say something about the Bureau itself, and there is no evidence (IMO) they'll do so.

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I note a lack of justification of your assumptions there, sir. You seem to have things backwards. The goal of science is to develop ever better models approximating the inherently ordely behavior of the universe and putting it to useful purposes. Someone who believes that their belief of how the world should operate defines how it does operate is following the philosophy of magic and has no business touching equations with a 50' pole.

Without valid assumptions defining a valid model all your doing with equations is showing you're willing to flout GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out). They say that if you start out with an invalid assumption you can prove anything for a reason, sir. If you want to draw conclusions on behavior you need to be vastly more rigorous, and humble then what this quote shows.
You are actually correct, but IMO it seems that you have not yet read the full context of this debate. Personally, I'm more than happy to use the timings shown in the show and the time frame provided in Ep 18 (<20 minutes) to model what happened as accurately as possible, as you point out. Whether it is beneficial to my argument is at most tertiary to me.

However, my opponent seemed to want to add timecuts to extend the fight. Such things are of course, not justified, add un-necessary complexity, destroy the chances of making an accurate model ... etc, as you point out. Still, I'm pointing out here if he wants to add timecuts, he can't just add time to the parts he wants and disallow his opponent from adding time to the parts that favor his side. If we must be arbitrary than it isn't fair only one side is locked, is it?

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Fortifications don't make a peaceful populace exactly have the warm fuzzies about you, which is a concern regarding having a base, period. Plus there's resource concerns for the defender and the inevitable problem that if writers make a place impenetratable, they can't exactly have it attacked now can they? Are you arguing it was a bad story device and poorly implemented?
Yes. It is a theme that I've joined in since the beginning. We all knew the authors were going to stick it to our heroines in that episode, and there is nothing called a fortress that can't be taken. It is what they aren't doing, thus making it easier to stick them, that makes the whole Ep16-17 annoying. Its so ... contrived.

IMO, it is harder to write a plausible loss for your protagonists than wins. Victory justifies and covers up for a lot of decisions, even if on a more objective analysis they may actually be poor. And if you really kicked-a*sed, you can violate every tactical rule and probably get away with it since you just proved that You Know Better in Your Battle (at least to the viewer). When they lose, however, their efforts and decisions stand on their own merits, and they have to show clearly a best intelligent effort that was overwhelmed by superior enemy capability and/or by true enemy ingenuity.

Most authors aren't great tacticians, so as it is their protagonists' decisions probably have flaws. Thus it is extra important not to deliberately impose new ones to "open a hole" for the antagonists. The combined effect will often make your characters look like idiots, which is more or less what happened this time.

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Again if there's a question, explain. I had to check, because I thought you were talking about Shoot and Scoot with it phrased like that.
Thanks for recommending a more accurate term here ... yes "S&S" is what I meant to say. If Zafira can't fire on the move, he'll have to fire on the "short halt" in this scenario. In the real battle, he's almost certainly firing on the short halt.

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Holding action is kind of standard practice for that kind of situation. Leyte Gulf mean anything to you?
When I was on the 20 minutes part, I meant they can only do a holding action for less than 20 minutes. In fact, using the timeframe in the show, they only really held for a matter of minutes, and the drones are already pouring 'round them, so one can really argue they didn't hold out for much of anything at all.
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