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Old 2009-01-31, 10:33   Link #1861
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
New information from SSX throws yet another light on past observations.
If your interpretation is right, then this is called contradictory information, not another light. "Another light" is when an old observation can be read two or more ways, and while we chose Way A as preferred for some reason at the time, Way B was never completely overruled and with the new evidence, the weight balance shifted so either Way A was closed or Way B now looks better.

The way you want it, this clearly does not apply - Way A was the only real solution according to the evidence, but according to you Way B is true, so the old observation was invalidated.

It is probable this is not really the case.

Quote:
In track 16 of disc 2, Subaru is hit by what is blatantly labeled an 'artillery' style cannon with 'live ammunition' that could 'destroy a tank in one shot'
What's this "live ammo"? Does that mean magical ammo is not "live" even when set on killing strengths?

Joking aside, Subaru actually said 実弾兵器, which in Terran context usually means live, combat-use ammo, but here presumably refers to it shooting projectiles made of either pseudomatter or even real fermions.

Artillery style? What caliber? Shell weight? Velocity?

It is hard to cut the velocity with hearing, but it is not hard to hear that the "Phew" and the Explosion as the Shell's propellant fired started at least 1 second before the charge's (warhead) explosion started (actually more like 1.5, but this should be demonstrative enough).

Let's make some rough cuts of the distance. The near non-existent delay between the end of the Mirage's demand and Subaru's refusal virtually rules out there being a large distance between them. Otherwise, there will be a delay while the sound waves reach Subaru - a limit of sound propagation velocity.

Little distance, long delay, the shell is slow .... less than 100m/s ground speed. What kind of shell is this. Obviously, the author has spoken about his conception of the speed of Belkan "artillery" shells. At least he shows scientific acumen (?), because a hand-held "artillery" device firing matter-based shells will actually have sharply limited muzzle velocities to reduce recoil, unless the shell is so small it is unworthy of the name (say a rifle and bullet).

There is one exception.
Spoiler for Exception:


Leaving Cinque and Novu, and actual powers and speeds for a moment, according to the Mirriage, Belkan 戦車 can be destroyed in one shot by what is basically a low-velocity hand weapon wielded by a human size combat machine. If this ability is not restricted (such as the rear of the tank or the like), then it says a lot about the relative combat capability of Belkan Kampfwagens (note Kampfwagen, not Panzerkampfwagen) in their time, none of which are very positive. Hopefully, this is because it was indeed a Kampfwagen. If it was a Panzerkampfwagen, their tanks are simply no better than the modern Middie ones.

Quote:
even less damage then after her fight with Nove and Cinque.
Actually, I'm sure she was bleeding a lot less after being punched into the Midcrete by Nove. Anyway, this being the image we have to use, we now have good information on her end-state.

Though it wasn't quite as embarassing as those penetrations by airblast, whips ... etc, we can see that the BJ is not insanely effective in stopping fragmentation.

Quote:
This means that the blows being exchanged during the fight between Nove, Cinque and Subaru exceeded the power of an artillery cannon during their fight in episode 17. With no active defenses being thrown up, that means her only defense was her Barrier Jacket and her Cyborg body. Cinque's and Subaru's blows had to go through an active Barrier as well, further increasing their power.

It also deals another blow to the 'measured speed is always an accurate display of power' and 'Mid buildings are made of foam' theories.
First, any attempt to relate that artillery shell to a Terran one kind of goes flat after velocity analysis.

Second, Cinque's shot wasn't really that impressive as assessed visually. So you should work your way down from the visual observation you do have to the Miriage.

Then, what kind of tank. Forget what ATC has said. Don't forget the PT-76. Or reaching back into history, the WWII Japanese tanks, or the Panzerkampfwagen I and II, the Soviet T-28, the very first British tank ... considering the low velocity of the round, it stands to reason that this is more like the tank the shell is to defeat.

For a thought in another direction, how do you know it was a hit. There was an explosion, but there was a second's delay between shot and impact. We can't expect everyone to be like Vita in Ep7 A's. Further, we don't have a clue about the quality of the Miriage's FC and stabilization, so why do you think it necessarily hit rather than say a near miss?
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Old 2009-01-31, 11:23   Link #1862
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
My father has a saying. "There are two types of ship in the ocean. Submarines, and targets."

I think one could adapt that to tanks.

There are two types of tanks on the battlefield.

Tanks, and scrap metal.

Guess where mid-childan 'tanks' go...
Then by all means, show me a scene where we saw the tanks in action. Regardless, that still doesn't change my point. We had a blatant quote of a weapon that could destroy a tank, Mariage was created in an era where mass weaponry was common usage, tanks included, and Subaru took that shot and survived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If your interpretation is right, then this is called contradictory information, not another light. "Another light" is when an old observation can be read two or more ways, and while we chose Way A as preferred for some reason at the time, Way B was never completely overruled and with the new evidence, the weight balance shifted so either Way A was closed or Way B now looks better.

The way you want it, this clearly does not apply - Way A was the only real solution according to the evidence, but according to you Way B is true, so the old observation was invalidated.

It is probable this is not really the case.
This is amusing. You call your way the 'right' way despite that you still have yet to show me any shred of canon support for your theory, while blowing away all the support I have, and then call me on that it is 'the way I want it to be?'

Wake up and smell the hypocrisy Ark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What's this "live ammo"? Does that mean magical ammo is not "live" even when set on killing strengths?

Joking aside, Subaru actually said 実弾兵器, which in Terran context usually means live, combat-use ammo, but here presumably refers to it shooting projectiles made of either pseudomatter or even real fermions.

Artillery style? What caliber? Shell weight? Velocity?

It is hard to cut the velocity with hearing, but it is not hard to hear that the "Phew" and the Explosion as the Shell's propellant fired started at least 1 second before the charge's (warhead) explosion started (actually more like 1.5, but this should be demonstrative enough).

Let's make some rough cuts of the distance. The near non-existent delay between the end of the Mirage's demand and Subaru's refusal virtually rules out there being a large distance between them. Otherwise, there will be a delay while the sound waves reach Subaru - a limit of sound propagation velocity.

Little distance, long delay, the shell is slow .... less than 100m/s ground speed. What kind of shell is this. Obviously, the author has spoken about his conception of the speed of Belkan "artillery" shells. At least he shows scientific acumen (?), because a hand-held "artillery" device firing matter-based shells will actually have sharply limited muzzle velocities to reduce recoil, unless the shell is so small it is unworthy of the name (say a rifle and bullet).

There is one exception.
Spoiler for Exception:


Leaving Cinque and Novu, and actual powers and speeds for a moment, according to the Mirriage, Belkan 戦車 can be destroyed in one shot by what is basically a low-velocity hand weapon wielded by a human size combat machine. If this ability is not restricted (such as the rear of the tank or the like), then it says a lot about the relative combat capability of Belkan Kampfwagens (note Kampfwagen, not Panzerkampfwagen) in their time, none of which are very positive. Hopefully, this is because it was indeed a Kampfwagen. If it was a Panzerkampfwagen, their tanks are simply no better than the modern Middie ones.
I expected you to do this, completely ignoring where I said that this threw a huge dent in the 'speed calculations are always accurate' bit. And yet, all your calculations have done is prove my point.

This was an artillery shell.

It was a shell capable of reducing tanks to rubble.

Mariage was built in an era where Mass weaponry was common usage, and was not weak either. Remember the ruins that are scattered across mid? Remember the big nuclear bang shown in episode 14? So even the ever-fading Mid paranoia excuse won't work here.

*sigh* Once again even the most basics of basics of 'dramatization' completely fail to sink into your mind. I suppose you're also the one who foams at the mouth during countdown scenes in movies, where 30 seconds turn into 5 minutes? Because this is, well, basically the same principle. Time elapsed on the timer =/= accurate time elapsed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, I'm sure she was bleeding a lot less after being punched into the Midcrete by Nove. Anyway, this being the image we have to use, we now have good information on her end-state.
Nove's arm was busted after a single hit by Subaru with a barrier up.

Subaru's arm was busted after being hit by Cinque's UBW shot with a barrier up.

Subaru gets hit by a tank destroying shell, without a barrier up, and receives a few scratches here and there, and some torn skin. Her arm is still perfectly functional.

Subaru/Cinque's firepower > artillery shell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
For a thought in another direction, how do you know it was a hit. There was an explosion, but there was a second's delay between shot and impact. We can't expect everyone to be like Vita in Ep7 A's. Further, we don't have a clue about the quality of the Miriage's FC and stabilization, so why do you think it necessarily hit rather than say a near miss?
Dunno, perhaps because both Ix and Mariage considered it a hit? And since their combat experience > ours by several centuries, I'm inclined to believe them.

Reversibly, do you have any proof it missed?

Edit: I just came across something amusing. This was the initial response to the ordeal by an unrelated third party:

Quote:
Makes more sense that they owned the tanks and helicopters in StrikerS with hardly any difficulty, huh...?
Now this is the kind of response most of the audience -being neither Military maniacs not extreme speed calculators- will have. Tell me truthfully, do you honestly believe that this reaction was not the intent of the creators?
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Old 2009-01-31, 11:55   Link #1863
Nagumo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post


What's this "live ammo"? Does that mean magical ammo is not "live" even when set on killing strengths?

Joking aside, Subaru actually said 実弾兵器, which in Terran context usually means live, combat-use ammo, but here presumably refers to it shooting projectiles made of either pseudomatter or even real fermions.

Artillery style? What caliber? Shell weight? Velocity?
... Why would the Mariage start ranting about the caliber, shell weight and velocity of it's bullet/artillery round? To enlighten the audience they're going to do a brief exposition, nothing else.

It is definitely stated that the ammo (実弾兵器) is a real, live combat use ammo that any regular military on earth would use. There's no evidence that it's otherwise, if they wanted to contend it was psuedomatter or fermions they would probably mention it in the track via Mariage's exposition.

Also... why the hell would the drama cd guys try to make weaponry sound accurate? Why go through the effort?

Drama cds are supposed to cheap to produce omake (bonuses) for fans. And the fans are not usually military otakus, so why would they bother trying to get the sound right?
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Old 2009-01-31, 12:38   Link #1864
Keroko
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Mariage's explanation can also basically be translated as "This blast was really awesome and there is no way Subaru could have survived it."

Dramatization is never meant to be realistic, its meant to dramatize scenes. For example:

Ba-*boom*

Baaang! *boom*

Which one is more dramatic? The realistic 'Mariage fired a shot at virtually point-blank range (they were indoors, if I recall) so the shot hits instantly' or the dramatic 'the shot fires, seconds pass as the audience revels in the shot approaching the target, before it hits'

It's a standard technique in almost any form of audio or animation media, and virtually no different from the '30 second countdown becomes 5 minute countdown' technique used in movies.
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Old 2009-01-31, 14:10   Link #1865
Ryand-Smith
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I'm curious, how strong is Subaru anyway, I mean can she lift cars or is she starting to reach the "Destroy modern office towers with great ease" of power?
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Old 2009-01-31, 14:19   Link #1866
Keroko
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Hmm, good question. I think lifting cars is well withing the boundaries of her strength, but as for destroying modern office towers.... not really. Not unless you give her some time to smash apart the foundations, but I don't see her kicking apart entire towers with one well-placed kick.
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Old 2009-01-31, 17:31   Link #1867
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Then by all means, show me a scene where we saw the tanks in action. Regardless, that still doesn't change my point. We had a blatant quote of a weapon that could destroy a tank, Mariage was created in an era where mass weaponry was common usage, tanks included, and Subaru took that shot and survived.
You don't need to see the tanks in action to know they're scrap worthy. You just look at the design. Unless they're made of Unobtainium, they're horrible.

From the screenshot, it's a smallish tank, which of course means it'll have lighter armor. The turret is smaller than the main body and the tracks stick out almost half again from the sides, which is wasted space the turret could cover. The turret armor itself has no sloping along the sides, just the front. The forward section of the main hull is also cut in behind the front treds, so the driver is going to be cramped and he'll have little effective armor in his position.

It almost looks like it wants to be a smaller cousin of the JGSDF Type 90 with corners cut...

A hit to the turret from the side or rear is certain to be a kill shot short of Unobtanium Armor. The same for a nice 'between the legs' shot up the front of the main hull where the armor SHOULD be a heavy piece.

The turret could afford to be wider and have sloping sides, which would help to prevent shots to the tracks from above from doing as much damage, if any thanks to deflection. The forward armor should line up with the tracks to prevent explosive force from being funnelled into the space, which would also allow that armor to be thicker and more capable. Very important considering the frontal aspect of a tank is supposed to be the most well defended part of the tank.

You don't want any kind of V or U shape in the armor of a tank.

It's a noted flaw with the Abrams that there's a gap between the main hull and the turret where they connect that is a V kind of shape, and that a really well placed shot could litterally pop the turret right off. However, the gap is so small that this has never been a problem.
The Mid-Childan tank has that U gap between the treads along the frontal aspect. Even if a shot to the front didn't punch through the armor, you could warp the forward parts of the treads on both sides from the focused blast and now you've got a mission killed vehicle because you have to haul the tank to maintanance and replace the forward sections of the housing assembly on both sides. Which is a problem because if you're taking tank hammering blasts to the frontal aspect, you're most likely facing another tank.


I'm not saying the writers need to be tank engineers because that would be an unrealistic expectation. I'm just calling what I see in the tank design. And the 'generic tank' the Mid Childan's have is going to be no match for a decently designed modern tank. So 'one-shotting' it would be a lot easier with much smaller artillery.

Not to rain on the parade... well, actually, yes. I'm raining all over your parade. But just saying 'artillery shell' can be anything from a mortar to nuclear round and everything in between. Size and yield can range from 40mm to 155 mm +.

Effects can also vary depending on shell used. A High Explosive round, which is probably the most commonly considered shot, would be less impressive for Subaru to walk away from than say, a shraptnel or DPICM round, or a direct hit to the arm with a APFSDS round.

In this case, I highly doubt she actually took a direct hit from an artillery round. Even if it was verbalized as 'direct hit' by dialogue. Because in artillery, a 'direct hit' is generally 'in the explosion'... Where as a TRUE direct hit is 'shell to the face'.
HE being the common idea for 'artillery' in fiction, she didn't survive being hit by an artillery shell, she survived being in the general area (Killzone) of the explosion shockwave from a High Explosive round. And they've done plenty of that before.

So label me unimpressed.
When she shrugs off an APFSDS round, call me.
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Old 2009-01-31, 23:27   Link #1868
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
... Why would the Mariage start ranting about the caliber, shell weight and velocity of it's bullet/artillery round? To enlighten the audience they're going to do a brief exposition, nothing else.
There's nothing wrong with them doing this. It is Keroko who tries to pull non-existent assumptions out of what was not stated that's at fault.

Quote:
It is definitely stated that the ammo (実弾兵器) is a real, live combat use ammo that any regular military on earth would use. There's no evidence that it's otherwise, if they wanted to contend it was psuedomatter or fermions they would probably mention it in the track via Mariage's exposition.
I don't know what you are reading, but I actually agree. Fermions is what makes up normal matter. Ordinary Terran shells are made up of fermions.

Quote:
Drama cds are supposed to cheap to produce omake (bonuses) for fans. And the fans are not usually military otakus, so why would they bother trying to get the sound right?
Having already made the sounds, it is not that hard to merely overlap the two sounds, or at least to move the delay up close. Nevertheless, this is again, not the fault of the producer, but Keroko. We don't expect them do get it right, but as ATC says we call what we see and hear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Then by all means, show me a scene where we saw the tanks in action. Regardless, that still doesn't change my point. We had a blatant quote of a weapon that could destroy a tank, Mariage was created in an era where mass weaponry was common usage, tanks included, and Subaru took that shot and survived.
You are just repeating yourself.

Quote:
This is amusing. You call your way the 'right' way despite that you still have yet to show me any shred of canon support for your theory, while blowing away all the support I have, and then call me on that it is 'the way I want it to be?'

Wake up and smell the hypocrisy Ark.
I don't know about you, but I'll call actually seeing it the best canon support.

Quote:
I expected you to do this, completely ignoring where I said that this threw a huge dent in the 'speed calculations are always accurate' bit. And yet, all your calculations have done is prove my point.
Hah?

Quote:
This was an artillery shell.
That was something claiming to be a shell. The claim might be taken in the absence of other data, but when other data is there, it is prudent to check it.

Besides, said "arty" shell was supposed to be fired from a human launcher. You should have reduced your expectations just after realizing this part.

Quote:
It was a shell capable of reducing tanks to rubble.
What KIND of tank? And since when did "destroy" turn into "reducing them to rubble". What will be your next interpretation? Vaporization?

Quote:
Mariage was built in an era where Mass weaponry was common usage, and was not weak either. Remember the ruins that are scattered across mid? Remember the big nuclear bang shown in episode 14? So even the ever-fading Mid paranoia excuse won't work here.
You simply have no idea how the ruins were made, or how long it took to make them.

How does nice nukes = nice Kampfwagens.

And you've got the order all wrong. it is not Mid-paranoia feeding the weak tanks. It is the weak tanks that feed the paranoia. However, since they have just implied that Belkan tanks were similiarly crummy, it just shed a "new light" onto that situation. So yes the Mid paranoia "excuse" won't work, but it won't change the conclusion the tanks are pretty weak.

Quote:
*sigh* Once again even the most basics of basics of 'dramatization' completely fail to sink into your mind. I suppose you're also the one who foams at the mouth during countdown scenes in movies, where 30 seconds turn into 5 minutes? Because this is, well, basically the same principle. Time elapsed on the timer =/= accurate time elapsed.
Are you saying the timer is wrong? Well, if we saw it in real life, that's what we'll have concluded.

Anyway, I don't mind dramatization. Admittedly, the scene won't sound as good had they accurately depicted a 600m/s+ shell over a typical MGLN combat range. The fact that making it sound good means the speed of the shell goes down doesn't bother me. However, it seems to bother you greatly, since you alternate between claiming to support dramatization and demanding that MGLN weapons have similar technical characteristics.

Quote:
Nove's arm was busted after a single hit by Subaru with a barrier up.

Subaru's arm was busted after being hit by Cinque's UBW shot with a barrier up.

Subaru gets hit by a tank destroying shell, without a barrier up, and receives a few scratches here and there, and some torn skin. Her arm is still perfectly functional.
Wrong order. Remember that observations are your base, and iffy words are defined by observation. So you go from Cinque back DOWN to define the power of ancient Belkan arty shells, and the protection of the tanks that will be "destroyed" by it,

Quote:
Subaru/Cinque's firepower > artillery shell.
Given an arbitrary definition of artillery shell, certainly this can be true.

Quote:
Dunno, perhaps because both Ix and Mariage considered it a hit? And since their combat experience > ours by several centuries, I'm inclined to believe them.
Re-read Nagumo's run through it. Tell me where they said it is a direct hit. All they said is that it can kill tanks in one blow.

Quote:
Reversibly, do you have any proof it missed?
Not really. But as I said, there's no proof of a hit, so I'm wondering how you can be so sure. And considering the one-second flight time, a direct hit adds points to Subaru's survivability (and that's capped by Cinque anyway so you aren't gaining nearly as many points as you think you are) even as it takes away her agility and reaction time (given one second plus time of flight and several seconds of charging time ensuring I am ready at her shot for when it fires, even a complete couch-potato like me can pull a evasive maneuver; so that's almost as many points lost as Vita in Ep7 A's), and I'm just not sure whether that's what you really wanted, that's all.

Quote:
Edit: I just came across something amusing. This was the initial response to the ordeal by an unrelated third party:

Now this is the kind of response most of the audience -being neither Military maniacs not extreme speed calculators- will have. Tell me truthfully, do you honestly believe that this reaction was not the intent of the creators?
Look at the roll-eyes. Aaron008R was probably rolling because the scene showed more how weak the tanks are rather than how strong the Sentoukijin are. Got it?
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Old 2009-01-31, 23:37   Link #1869
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Has everyone forgotten something? 150 years ago, when mass weapons were in wide use, Mid's tech level was at least that of 21st century earth, with nukes, rifles, MRLS to name a few.

Consider also that the tanks we see at the defence of the desert Einherjar are magitanks, built post-war, and a number of things start to fall into place... namely the design and lack of armor. It's a magitank, it attacks and defends itself using magical means (i.e. beams and barriers). With that, since it's fighting magical weapons, why the hell would it need armor? In fact armor is useless since nobody now is using AT weapons and magic damage attacks can pass right through physical armor. That takes away a lot of the arguments that ATC posited vis-a-vis tank design.

This tank is useless for fighting against current antitank weaponry & tactics. However, on the Mid-Childan AO, where such weapons and tactics no longer exist, the magitank's existence is less untenable. Having said that, other factors then come into play, such as crew skill/competancy, training levels, practice time, how many targets there are... combat is full of variables.

And if all this timing is giving ark trouble, I'd really like to see how he can explain away Initial D: corners that would normally take a few seconds to pass in real life can stretch out into several minutes... and this is when they have Tsuchiya Keiichi, the Drift King, the guy who INVENTED drifting, supervising. Even Tsuchiya has laughed and said that some of the things in Initial D are done for dramatic lisence, and he wouldn't do it IRL.

Edit: I lol at ark confidently going on that he can read aaron's mind when he's been going "Oh so you understand me better than I do myself?" :lol:

Also, srsly, you all take this too seriously. You want hardscale miltaku stuff? Fucking watch Gasaraki or SAC or Rescue Wings. Wrong audience, wrong expectations. Hell, go and watch The Unit: that's what I do when I want to get my fix. And considering that teh exec producer & tech advisor was one of the early members of Delta Force, as well as a Ranger CSM...
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Old 2009-02-01, 00:11   Link #1870
AdmiralTigerclaw
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No. We won't. This is a tech discussion, and we will repeat things ad infinitum because it's a discussion about the tech.


Now, as for magitanks. We know armor is not completely useless. It IS stated as one of the protective factors in the manga. (Barrier, Field, and Shield, as well as physical shield... physical shield would be, you guessed it, ARMOR.)

I don't think it would be mentioned if it was a non-factor.
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Old 2009-02-01, 00:27   Link #1871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Has everyone forgotten something? 150 years ago, when mass weapons were in wide use, Mid's tech level was at least that of 21st century earth, with nukes, rifles, MRLS to name a few.

Consider also that the tanks we see at the defence of the desert Einherjar are magitanks, built post-war, and a number of things start to fall into place... namely the design and lack of armor. It's a magitank, it attacks and defends itself using magical means (i.e. beams and barriers). With that, since it's fighting magical weapons, why the hell would it need armor? In fact armor is useless since nobody now is using AT weapons and magic damage attacks can pass right through physical armor. That takes away a lot of the arguments that ATC posited vis-a-vis tank design.

This tank is useless for fighting against current antitank weaponry & tactics. However, on the Mid-Childan AO, where such weapons and tactics no longer exist, the magitank's existence is less untenable. Having said that, other factors then come into play, such as crew skill/competancy, training levels, practice time, how many targets there are... combat is full of variables.
So, so many good points to choose from. So I'll go ahead and add this:

We're never provided in narrative any answer as to the relative power of magic vis-a-vis conventional mass weaponry.

Even the "non-magical" effects of Jail's research are shown to be powered by similar principles to Mid magitek (i.e. Jewel Seeds as power sources and so on). Mariage has similar issues; where does "lost logia" leave off and "conventional" effects kick in.

There are three completely different possibilities, and while we can sit here and speculate all day about which one makes more "sense," there's no evidence whatsoever which one is the truth, only the question of which appeals most to our individual psychology:

A: Magic trumps mass weaponry all the time. Mass weapons have been banned not because they're especially hazardous in fighting the TSAB but because any idiot can pick one up and start slaughtering civilians, and because of the secondary effects of their use (radioactive fallout, for example). If attacked by Earth troops with assault rifles, grenades, and rocket launchers, Nanoha is only in danger if Raising Heart accidentally falls asleep because it's so incredibly boring having her shields attacked by irrelevant forms of energy. The non-lethality of "magic damage" is a choice made by the mage creating the spell in line with the police/investigative function of the TSAB Enforcers rather than any limitation of the art. (re: magitanks, modern antitank tactics will simply bounce off their active barrier defenses)

B: To quote Gargoyles, energy is energy, whether created by magic or technology. Magic and mass weaponry interact on a level roughly equivalent to their observable effects. Barrier Jackets may stop bullets, but not repeated hits. Mass weapons have been banned largely because of the same reasons as in A, above, but do constitute an additional threat when taking them on (one reason why, for example, the TSAB hasn't just shut down the Orusian civil war by force). (re: magitanks, they lack heavy physical armor because they're designed to fight against enemies attacking with magic, not mass weapons)

C: As B above, but carried to its extreme: magic is inferior to mass weaponry. Non-lethality of magic isn't merely a matter of choice but a limiting effect. Mages are few and far between and one trooper with body armor and an M16 is quite capable of matching a Midchildan D-rank. Mass weapons have the added advantage of being able to be constructed on a variety of scales and equipping large segments of the population with destructive capacity. The mass weapons ban is essential for preserving TSAB superiority. (re: magitanks, they generally suck).

(Personally, I'm an A-shading-slightly-into-B territory kind of guy, but like I said, that's completely an artificial selection for personal narrative purposes. There's just no viable evidence.)
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Old 2009-02-01, 01:03   Link #1872
Wild Goose
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No. We won't. This is a tech discussion, and we will repeat things ad infinitum because it's a discussion about the tech.


Now, as for magitanks. We know armor is not completely useless. It IS stated as one of the protective factors in the manga. (Barrier, Field, and Shield, as well as physical shield... physical shield would be, you guessed it, ARMOR.)

I don't think it would be mentioned if it was a non-factor.
And yet everybody keeps whipping out barriers and shields instead of up-armored barrier jackets, which makes you wonder.


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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
So, so many good points to choose from. So I'll go ahead and add this:

We're never provided in narrative any answer as to the relative power of magic vis-a-vis conventional mass weaponry.

Even the "non-magical" effects of Jail's research are shown to be powered by similar principles to Mid magitek (i.e. Jewel Seeds as power sources and so on). Mariage has similar issues; where does "lost logia" leave off and "conventional" effects kick in.

There are three completely different possibilities, and while we can sit here and speculate all day about which one makes more "sense," there's no evidence whatsoever which one is the truth, only the question of which appeals most to our individual psychology:

A: Magic trumps mass weaponry all the time. Mass weapons have been banned not because they're especially hazardous in fighting the TSAB but because any idiot can pick one up and start slaughtering civilians, and because of the secondary effects of their use (radioactive fallout, for example). If attacked by Earth troops with assault rifles, grenades, and rocket launchers, Nanoha is only in danger if Raising Heart accidentally falls asleep because it's so incredibly boring having her shields attacked by irrelevant forms of energy. The non-lethality of "magic damage" is a choice made by the mage creating the spell in line with the police/investigative function of the TSAB Enforcers rather than any limitation of the art. (re: magitanks, modern antitank tactics will simply bounce off their active barrier defenses)

B: To quote Gargoyles, energy is energy, whether created by magic or technology. Magic and mass weaponry interact on a level roughly equivalent to their observable effects. Barrier Jackets may stop bullets, but not repeated hits. Mass weapons have been banned largely because of the same reasons as in A, above, but do constitute an additional threat when taking them on (one reason why, for example, the TSAB hasn't just shut down the Orusian civil war by force). (re: magitanks, they lack heavy physical armor because they're designed to fight against enemies attacking with magic, not mass weapons)

C: As B above, but carried to its extreme: magic is inferior to mass weaponry. Non-lethality of magic isn't merely a matter of choice but a limiting effect. Mages are few and far between and one trooper with body armor and an M16 is quite capable of matching a Midchildan D-rank. Mass weapons have the added advantage of being able to be constructed on a variety of scales and equipping large segments of the population with destructive capacity. The mass weapons ban is essential for preserving TSAB superiority. (re: magitanks, they generally suck).

(Personally, I'm an A-shading-slightly-into-B territory kind of guy, but like I said, that's completely an artificial selection for personal narrative purposes. There's just no viable evidence.)
I'm more of a B shading into A slightly myself. Of course, the Erusian War's backstory, which I'm working on, doesn't really make the TSAB look very good - what with sniper rifles reaching out and touching mages from waaaay out...

Rifle vs magic has advantages and disadvantages. Mass weapons are silent on the detection scale: there's no magical powerup, no advance warning, which makes them ideal for sniper attacks and ambushes (which were a frequent tactic in the Battle of North Point, where the Erusians turned the city into a sniper & ambusher's wet dream, as but one example - but that's fictional...). On the other hand, you must supply your soldier with food and ammo, which puts logistical issues into the mix. There's also no magic residue, which is a godsend for the OFM, who operate below the radar and limit traces of their presence.

Magic, on the other hand, is more versatile: you can choose between lethal or non-lethal, you've got guided rounds, dumbfire rounds, hi-velocity, low-velocity, big beams of death, etc, plus mages have been shown to be able to operate at higher physical performance levels than normal humans. Add also the fact that mana is powered by carbohydrates, and your supply situation becomes simpler: you don't need to provide your mage with ammo, just make sure she's fed and watered. XD
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Old 2009-02-01, 05:14   Link #1873
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
So label me unimpressed.
When she shrugs off an APFSDS round, call me.
Dunno about others, but my non-miltaku head has generally come to associate 'artillery' with 'really powerful' I have no idea what an APFSDS round is, so I have no idea why I should be more impressed by it.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You are just repeating yourself.
I am. I was re-stating my point. That generally involves repeating oneself.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I don't know about you, but I'll call actually seeing it the best canon support.
I don't. As we've seen in our many debates, visuals can vary due to many varying factors, including but not limited to: Budget, dramatic effect and simple errors.

Take the Divine Buster Extension for example, a classic example of dramatization.

Calculations show that the beam moved at... 10m/s I think it was? Quite slow. I believe that makes the DBE one of the slowest attack we've seen on screen. According to your logic, seeing it is the best canon support, so DBE is the slowest attack in Nanohaverse.

In come the booklets, which label DBE as a 'High-speed attack'

A clear contradiction with what we've 'seen' and yet, we have a clear statement that specifically labels DBE as a high-speed attack, despite the act that we've seen attacks that weren't labeled as such move faster. Of course, I simply say that the visuals were slowed for dramatic effect, and that the attack was much faster then what the visuals displayed, which also conveniently explains why Vita didn't just step out of the way of the crawling attack.

So no, I don't call 'actually seeing it' the best canon support. Visuals are influenced by many factors, and thus aren't a 100% accurate representation of speed and the like. Booklets and dialog state facts and actually informative information, rather then visuals affected by 'what looks cool in this scene?' thereby making them a much more reliable source of information.

Or another example, Signum's Sturmfalken, which was labeled as a sonic attack in the booklets I believe. I actually amused you here by doing *drum roll* calculations. *gasp*

There is a nice scene starting at frame 24173, which shows the arrow very close to the screen. The scene ends at 24193, a mere 20 frames later. The AVI version I have has 24 frames a second, and the timer gives me a time of approximately 0,835 seconds for the scene.

Here's where things became harder, the arrow itself, judging by its size compared to Signum's arm, is a good 1 meter 20. Now, I may need your help in this, as I suck at estimating distances, but in the final frame of the scene, the arrow hardly looks more then 10 meters away.

Assuming my estimates and calculations are correct, then that means the arrow crossed a distance of 10 meters in 0,835 seconds. Or rather, it had a speed of not even 10 m/s. Last I checked, sonic speed wasn't achieved until around 343 m/s.

Calculated, the speed isn't sonic. And yet, the people and Seven Arcs labeled it an attack surpassing sonic speeds.

So no. With all this, I am having severe trouble accepting calculations as the end-all canon. Booklets and vocals > calculations.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What KIND of tank? And since when did "destroy" turn into "reducing them to rubble". What will be your next interpretation? Vaporization?
A destroyed tank, as in a tank that can't do anything anymore, is little more then a pile of rubble, no? If it can still work, then it's merely damaged, no?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You simply have no idea how the ruins were made, or how long it took to make them.
Oh, I have an idea:



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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
How does nice nukes = nice Kampfwagens.
They were people fighting one another with mass-based weaponry, had access to ships that could travel between dimensions. By all means their technology was more advanced then ours, what reason do I have to assume they didn't have decent tanks?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Are you saying the timer is wrong? Well, if we saw it in real life, that's what we'll have concluded.
*woosh*

I guess that point went way over your head. Let me explain with an example:



The Death Star would have taken '60 seconds' to fire, but ended up taking 3 minutes. Why? Dramatization. Saying 60 seconds creates a whole different tension level then saying 3 minutes.

Realistic? No, but that's not the point of dramatization.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Anyway, I don't mind dramatization. Admittedly, the scene won't sound as good had they accurately depicted a 600m/s+ shell over a typical MGLN combat range. The fact that making it sound good means the speed of the shell goes down doesn't bother me. However, it seems to bother you greatly, since you alternate between claiming to support dramatization and demanding that MGLN weapons have similar technical characteristics.
Hah? You don't mind dramatization? Then what's with all the speed calculations you do? If dramatization doesn't bother you, then you wouldn't be calculating and claiming those calculations absolute in the first place.

Anyway, I am dramatizing here. The dramatization here is "Holy- Did Subaru just survive an artillery shell?!"

Downgrading the power of that shell would go against dramatization.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Wrong order. Remember that observations are your base, and iffy words are defined by observation. So you go from Cinque back DOWN to define the power of ancient Belkan arty shells, and the protection of the tanks that will be "destroyed" by it,
Hardly. I am doing this in the right order. Referring to my quote above, the whole point of that scene was to make the audience to 'wow' at the fact that Subaru survived being blasted by that shell. Otherwise there wouldn't have been a point in specifically mentioning its power.

So no, we don't downgrade from Cinque at all.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Re-read Nagumo's run through it. Tell me where they said it is a direct hit. All they said is that it can kill tanks in one blow.
And Mariage certainly did not say anything about a miss and certainly did not continue shooting. Neither did Ix, who concidered Subaru dead at that point. I still see no reason to assume anything but a direct hit. And since you lack any proof it was a miss, whereas I at least have some proof it was a hit...

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Look at the roll-eyes. Aaron008R was probably rolling because the scene showed more how weak the tanks are rather than how strong the Sentoukijin are. Got it?
Rolleyes? What Rolleyes? I see an Uhoh smiley, which if could very much refer to being impressed by it. A rolleyes smiley is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
There are three completely different possibilities, and while we can sit here and speculate all day about which one makes more "sense," there's no evidence whatsoever which one is the truth, only the question of which appeals most to our individual psychology:
I'm a B, hinging in the A type I guess. Belka, despite its heavy use of mass-based weaponry, still had a heavy magical culture, so to me its most obvious the magic is at least equal to magic. Mid has a magic culture, and makes up for their lack of mass-based weaponry with mages, even with low numbers in the face of adversaries who won't shy away from using them (Jail, Mariage and even general criminals) so magic must be giving them an edge that allows them to even the odds of numbers.

Subaru can tank an artillery shell, but then Subaru is hardly an average mage. I have little doubt a generic D-rank mage would have been little more then a charred smear. Like we have different categories for weapons, mages also have different categories.
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Old 2009-02-01, 07:20   Link #1874
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Dunno about others, but my non-miltaku head has generally come to associate 'artillery' with 'really powerful' I have no idea what an APFSDS round is, so I have no idea why I should be more impressed by it.

Armor Piercing Fin Stablized Discarding Sabot.

What it is, is a typical tank to tank anti-armor round that has a wide discarding sabot that fits in the tank's main cannon. The sabot itself jackets around a thin metal Kinetic Energy Penetrator rod. So that you fire the shot, you get more energy delivered. The sabot comes off when it exits the barrel and now you've got a small projectile with a much higher velocity and energy of a round about six times its diameter.

They tend to be made of tungsten carbide or depleted uranium. When fired, the round is hurled like steel arrow at up to four thousand miles per hour. (1680 m/s) About Mach 5...

So on the recieving end, you have a 20mm wide steel rod the length of your arm slamming into you at mach five. And that's capable of slicing through 670mm of Rolled Homogenious Armor at a shallow angle from 2000 meters away like a hot knife through butter.

And you thought signum's boosted sword strike to Fate in A's was nasty...


In contrast, a typical artillery shell, such as the M107, a 155 mm artillery round, is an explosion area affect weapon. Its force is NOT concentrated. Though a direct hit to a tank can certainly do serious damage.

Pound for pound, the Sabot is an order of magnitude MORE powerful. The m107 weighs 95 lbs and has to have explosive propellent charges loaded seperate, while the sabot round I'm using as an example (M289) weighs about 40 lbs for the ENTIRE projectile, including the sabot petals and the casing with the propellant.

At the recieving end again, you have the effect of an explosion from the artillery shell, which delivers fragments at low energy and a shockwave and air pressure burst in a very large volume. (Say, the size of a small building.) Usefull for killing regular human fleshies.
In contrast, you have a metal rod which delivers about an equivilant of that energy to a space the size of my fist... all of that energy gets delivered directly to the intended target.

That's why I say come back when she takes a blow by one of those and walks away from it. People have survived being in the blast of artillery before. (Lucky bastards) I'd challenge anyone to name a single person that took a 20 mm steel rod to the face at mach five and live to tell about it.

Before you fly off the handle about some things, it really would help to somehow be able to quantify the tank, and quantify the round. I'm assuming a generic mid-childan 'afterthought' tank. (Because the artwork looks like the tanks and helicopters destroyed were just a quick afterthought to complete the scene) And I'm being generous and assuming something standard in artillery, such as the M107.

Given the "Afterthought's" weakness in the Physical Tank Design area, I wouldn't be surprised if a 155 mm artillery shell would destroy (not damage, DESTROY) it in a direct hit. And I would conclude that the general calling for artillery is that if you get the target blasted in the killzone of the shell, it classifies as a hit.


So I'm not impressed. Subaru was hit by the blast of an artillery shell capable of destroying a weak tank with a direct hit. When she survives a direct hit from a weapon specificly made to kill a strong tank, call me.

Personally, I'm an option B kind of guy. Magic is just as useful as non-magic in terms of weapons. Its just that modern massed based weapons have several hundred years of conflict and refining to them that magic weapons just don't have. Raising Heart is not a precision engineered device made with the express task of making you not living. (Though RH does the job well enough when put to the task.)

I'm of the standing that magitech weaponry in the TSAB suffers from their ongoing peace. It may be a sad truth, but war causes a rapid expansion and advancement in the methods of KILLING people. Just look what happens in the story itself around magitech whenever there's conflict. Jail took typical, magical materials and made cyborgs and drones that ran the entire TSAB in circles.

Or cartridges. Look what it took to push the TSAB into using what is generally an idea that's two-hundred years old for firearms. An idea that is actually a really GOOD idea if you want to actually WIN a pitched battle.

Give nanoha magic to the Department of Defense, make a portion of the population even D rank mages, and loom the TSAB over them as a threat, and I can guarantee you'll see magitech hybrid weapons within five years that would make the Aces soil their panties. (Or make Nanoha drool...)

Modern weapons aren't any more powerful, they're just perfected to the extent technology has allowed us. Magic weapons on the other hand, lag behind horribly with their potential and are in the process of catching up, however slowly.


Personally, I think magic weapons could take lessons on how to be ... weapons.

And a story about the conflicts, and what it would take to GET them there would be EPIC.
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Old 2009-02-01, 08:36   Link #1875
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About why no one shown carries shields: The amount of protection afforded could be anything from abyssmal to godly for all I care, but I believe an immaterial defence is deemed to be more convenient than having to lug a plate around.

Girls might be worried that it doesn't match their Jackets. Guys might think it's gonna cramp their style, since they might be forced to carry a smaller armed device (even when the device is HUEG by our standards).

But is the option there? Yes I believe so.
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Old 2009-02-01, 08:43   Link #1876
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I think the point is, the peaceniks don't want to kill people.

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Personally, I think magic weapons could take lessons on how to be ... weapons.
One approach I've been thinking of is magic-powered conventional weapons. Nanohaverse magic attacks cause virtually no physical damage to people, no matter how spectacular they look. But, what if you cast spells that caused physical effects that are fatal to people? The simplest example: using magic to grab a large chunk of matter and throwing it at your target.
Or how about using magic to impart kinetic energy into a projectile? Bullets would no longer require large casings to hold their propellant, gunbarrels wouldn't need to be heavily-built to contain chemical explosions and could be much shorter to hurl even large projectiles at long range.
My most exotic idea is a magic-powered laser. I'm not sure how, but there's probably a way to make magic emit photons in a coherent manner, AKA a laser beam. If it exists, I expect the resulting laser to be frequency-tunable. That'll let you have optical lasers in the atmosphere and underwater and x-ray or gamma-ray lasers in space with the same equipment. Just change the frequency settings!
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Old 2009-02-01, 08:47   Link #1877
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Fate manipulating electricity to generate a tremendous EM field flux capable of propelling a metal game coin to Mach 3 in a nanosecond. Instant railgun.
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Old 2009-02-01, 09:14   Link #1878
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Fate manipulating electricity to generate a tremendous EM field flux capable of propelling a metal game coin to Mach 3 in a nanosecond. Instant railgun.
A good idea, I had thought of that before also. But I realised this was essentially an inefficient two-stage process. Spell creates a physical effect that then imparts kinetic energy into the projectile. Directly changing magic into kinetic energy infused into the projectile is more efficient.
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Old 2009-02-01, 10:07   Link #1879
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I think the point is, the peaceniks don't want to kill people.



One approach I've been thinking of is magic-powered conventional weapons. Nanohaverse magic attacks cause virtually no physical damage to people, no matter how spectacular they look.
I'd argue that that's not actually true. I could of course be wrong, but it seems that Nanohaverse magic attacks cause virtually no physical damage to people because their users want them to cause virtually no physical damage to people (after all, in the series we largely see the mages functioning as cops--law enforcement officers trying to arrest people as opposed to soldiers trying to slaughter them, and while in real life non-lethal weapons technology is very much behind lethal weapons technology, in the Nanohaverse we have Wave Motion Guns with a "stun" setting).

While it's an uproven hypothesis, it's definitely not unproven that different spells employing only "magic damage" can inflict highly variable amounts of physical damage on non-living matter. Compare, for example, Nanoha's Divine Buster from MGLN as it blows apart Precia's mecha (heck, her Divine Shooter was doing that!), her Starlight Breaker in StrikerS (giant crater left in the Throne Room floor), her Divine Buster in StrikerS (used multiple times to rip through buildings, so that the first time was used to foreshadow the second), with Starlight Breaker when it was thrown back at them by Reinforce in A's (not a single scratch on the ground or the surrounding buildings).

Quote:
But, what if you cast spells that caused physical effects that are fatal to people? The simplest example: using magic to grab a large chunk of matter and throwing it at your target.
Already exists, actually. Nanoha calls her variation "Stardust Fall" (pick up large rocks and toss them). It's in the chapter of the StrikerS manga where she, Fate, and Hayate square off against Gadget Drones for the first time and everyone's all "Oh, noes! AMF!" Fate uses a spell which summons "real" lightning (as opposed to magic-damage pseudolightning) to bypass the AMF in the same way.
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Old 2009-02-01, 10:13   Link #1880
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Hell.

Just look at the things magic does BY ITSELF, and think how to apply it. Mach 2 mage? What can we do to a mach capable airframe with that?

Material construction? How about constructing equipment using magic to do the work? Imagine the potential for a combat engineer. In the middle of nowhere, just whip out a schematic and in a few minutes, have yourself half a dozen copies of the same piece of equipment, exactly the same and completely flawless in composition right down to the molecule. Manufacturing flaws would be a non-factor for mass produced objects on the battlefield. Equipment parts for things like tanks would become a field repair job. Need an expensive part that wouldn't ship out to the front for two weeks? Just ask your logistics mage.


Imagine active point defense operated by the computer brains of an intelligent device.

=[Under a second]=
-possible threat detected
- ID scan
- Thread Identified, RPG7 in flight
- Intercepting with laser pulse
- threat neutralized
- Trajectory traced, locking on to firing point
- seven hostiles indentified
- Relaying information
=[/under a second]=

"BOOM!"

"What in the-?!"

[Commander, attacking hostiles at vector two eight five]

"Let's toast them."

[Roger that.]


And telepathy. Ho boy, squad communication without the radio static, possibly including telepathic broadcasts of what a soldier actually sees. Why think a message in words when you can think it in pictures? Instead of telling the commander what you see when on recon, he can SEE what you see, and know not only the usual stuff you'd tell him over the radio, but also how things are arranged, and might even spot things about it the greener soldier might not know to look for.

"Ah, that third tank's got a bad track. Hit it first."


That's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure if we sat down as a group and cross examined everything, we could find exactly how to exploit the magic we've seen to the furthest of its abilities.
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