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Old 2009-02-03, 08:48   Link #1921
MeisterBabylon
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We haven't actually seen particulate magic being exruded raw (except in fanon), but the fact that Starlight Breaker harvests particles... No wonder its that powerful.
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Old 2009-02-03, 08:54   Link #1922
Keroko
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You're saying its pretty difficult to store luxons as if luxons are the definition of magic, I'm saying that it doesn't operate as any energy we know to begin with.

Booklets also label it as energy.

As for your last part... I'm not quite sure what you're trying to prove with this. You label a large variety of different examples of equipment that accomplishes similar purposes. Magic, on the other hand, can accomplish virtually all of this with only minor alterations, while you need a factory to build a plane. I've also yet to see a kid who changes into a ferret only a small part of the kids mass, or someone 'hiding behind something' in a space with nothing to hide behind.
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Old 2009-02-03, 14:23   Link #1923
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post


Different mechanisms, but similar end effect, moving of particles - given that we don't have real clues about a magical accelerator's mechanisms, only the desired effect, nitpicking about mechanisms seem cheap.
Two methods to achieve the same effect are still two methods with completely different operating principles. Or can you tell me that an internal combustion engine, a supersonic combustion ramjet engine, an ion drive, and a nuclear detonation orion drive are all the same because they make you go forwards.

Quote:
Acceleration itself is a pretty meaningless concept for massless energy, because acceleration implies a change of speed, and energy only has C.
Beside the point if you're arguing for mass based particles rather than energy.
If it's massed based particles for this component, then you can and do accellerate them.

Quote:
Read about pressurization as mentioned previously. And I don't necessarily think she can fire the beam continuously - certainly she won't fire it all day. but for the 5-6 seconds until beam termination, she can, and the cartridges can easily help her do that.
Your concession is accepted. By indicating 'pressurization', you are actually responding to charging. As charging is a culmination of whichever energy.


You have real time active full sentience. I'm sure this means that means you are fast enough to handle this simple formulae:

183473790413413704374374032147204^2
[/quote]

183,473,790,413,413,704,374,374,032,147,204^2

One hundred eighty three novillion, four hundred seventy three octillion, seven hundred ninty septillion, four hundred thirteen sextillion, four hundred thirteen quintillion, seven hundred four quadrillion, three hundred seventy four trillion, three hundred seventy four billion, thirty two million, one hundred forty seven thousand, two hundred and four...

Squared.

And I don't even have a built in dedicated math processor. It takes longer to type than to read.

Nice attempt to sidestep the point. But we both know a dedicated computer is built for rapid computation and the human brain was never wired to do so. (Exceptions are certain people with mental 'disorders' such as autism that have wiring in their head different. They look at equations more insanely comprex and DO solve them flippantly.) Trying to upset it by using the weakness of the human brain in mathematics is erranious and we all know anyone with half a brain of intelligence knows that when it comes to computer programming, sentience is more computation heavy than weather forecasting.

At this time, my brain is currently processing input from millions of sensors from all five of my senses, processing concious and sub-concious thought, regulating body temperature, water level, sugar level, hormone levels, waste levels, and various other chemical and biological factors related to the functioning of the body. (Including processing the chemical signals that are telling me that my stomach is empty, and that I need some food.)

RH does not need to regulate a million and one body functions and maintain homeostasis. It's much simpler 'body' design only needs to regulate magic, heat, and electricity, while monitoring and occasionally dealing with structural integrity issues.

On top of this, the human brain functions as an integrated electrochemical network processor. The chemical processing, while making you nearly immune to EMP of all but 'Fry your Ass' levels, produces a very noticable lag in processing time compared to a purely electrical based processor. The lag is most noticeable when testing reflexes to the extremeties.

RH, being a magical intelligent device, is first and foremost, NOT an organic network processor and does not HAVE chemical lag times save for the chemical lag times in the brain of its master.


Now, as a point, If you want to SOLVE the equation, you should formulate it correctly:

X = 183,473,790,413,413,704,374,374,032,147,204^2

Define X.

Using the basic calculator on my computer, which is a really stupid non-senstient math processor. It didn't even take the time to blink when I hit enter to solve for X.
X = 3.36626317686652585299228560758e+62


That being said, the rest of your argument is trying to circumvent rather than address.

And that's all for now. I must be careful not to feed the troll too much, lest it become bloated and overweight. We need our local troll to be fit and trim and capable of SMASHING hapless Heroes.
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Old 2009-02-03, 14:31   Link #1924
Keroko
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There are two things I discovered when browsing the few translated booklets:

1: ATC's 'increase the density of a beam' theory is canon.

2: In terms on Divine Buster, it is already applied, suggesting a limit being reached (and by 'suggested' I mean 'can be interpreted as such.' It's still debatable).


ディバインバスター・エクステンション - Divine Buster ・ Extension
A 「Bombardment spell」 fired and effected from Mana.
Mana concentrated to high density allows the target to be hit directly at long range, with no decrease in power over distance.
The first offensive spell that Nanoha memorized, after 10 years it has remained one of her favorites, and has also become one of her specialty spells.
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Old 2009-02-03, 16:06   Link #1925
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well, if we accept for the moment the Particle model of Mana, there are a couple of potential limiting possibilties:

1: if the particles are charged in some way (that is, either electrostatically or magnetically or in some other 'magical' value we do not know) then there may be internal repulsion in the beam due to like charges repelling.

There may come a point where compressing the beam any further becomes prohibitively expensive in energy terms due to this internal repulsion.

Such repulsion would also have knock-on effects in terms of beam range, however, since it would lead to an increase in beam scattering, increasing the rate at which the beams would lose cohesion.

2: And possibly relating to 1:
Compressing the particles down beyond a certain limit may lead to the particles undergoing Fusion...

now, when Nuclear Particles undergo Fusion, this can be Bad...(if not done under controlled circumstances)

There's no telling what Mana particles might do when they Fuse...but it may also be similarly Bad (again, if not done under controlled circumstances)

(Has visions of Yuuno yelling at Nanoha and Fate: " How many times do I have to say it!? DON'T Cross the Streams!"

Nanoha: Aww, but it's FUN!")
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Old 2009-02-03, 17:15   Link #1926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
well, if we accept for the moment the Particle model of Mana, there are a couple of potential limiting possibilties:

1: if the particles are charged in some way (that is, either electrostatically or magnetically or in some other 'magical' value we do not know) then there may be internal repulsion in the beam due to like charges repelling.

There may come a point where compressing the beam any further becomes prohibitively expensive in energy terms due to this internal repulsion.

Such repulsion would also have knock-on effects in terms of beam range, however, since it would lead to an increase in beam scattering, increasing the rate at which the beams would lose cohesion.
The problem with this then, is that any force being used as containment for the beam can then be used as a shield. And the shield would always be stronger than the beam so long as the 'generators' are of roughly even power.

The reason being that if said beam is being forced together against scattering to remain cohesive uniformly to the target, the force of the compression is being stretched over the distance to the target. Where as the target only needs to project force over the surface area of the beam impact. So your 'energy used' factor for the total firing distance increase exponentially.

So you're effectively castrating yourself by using a 'charged particle' beam at anything farther than the effective distance of its natural cohesion. Instead of one-two-three cartrige pumps... nanoha would do something more like, three, thirty, three-hundred.

I won't even bother with the magic particle fusion bit. That's just so far out in wild theory range that I'm not going to touch with a ten foot pole.
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Old 2009-02-03, 19:19   Link #1927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You're saying its pretty difficult to store luxons as if luxons are the definition of magic, I'm saying that it doesn't operate as any energy we know to begin with.

Booklets also label it as energy.
In that case, the definition of "energy" is clearly different from the scientific concept. I have no problem with this - it is after all, hardly a scientific paper in any way. The problem is when you decide to try and smash it against the scientific concept.

Quote:
As for your last part... I'm not quite sure what you're trying to prove with this. You label a large variety of different examples of equipment that accomplishes similar purposes. Magic, on the other hand, can accomplish virtually all of this with only minor alterations, while you need a factory to build a plane. I've also yet to see a kid who changes into a ferret only a small part of the kids mass, or someone 'hiding behind something' in a space with nothing to hide behind.
The point is that most of what you claimed is not really so different in many ways from what is possible. As for the claim magic can accomplish all this with only "minor" alterations, we know so little about the details of magic that it is entirely possible, even probable, that saying it can accomplish all this with "minor alterations" is similar to a hypothetical sentience entirely made out of magic particles saying that we accomplish what we do with only "minor alterations" to fermions. After all, no matter which atom in what combination, it is electrons, protons and neutrons (going down to bozons and all those quantum particles).

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
There are two things I discovered when browsing the few translated booklets:

1: ATC's 'increase the density of a beam' theory is canon.

2: In terms on Divine Buster, it is already applied, suggesting a limit being reached (and by 'suggested' I mean 'can be interpreted as such.' It's still debatable).
And #2 is the main reason why he's being hit. We all agree that there are beams and bolts of different densities. We don't agree with his limitless theory where he just insists it can be compressed further by a factor of at least 3 orders of magnitude beyond the capabilities shown in canon.

By the way, the fact you can concentrate mana is another clue as to its nature as a massive, rather than massless particle.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Two methods to achieve the same effect are still two methods with completely different operating principles. Or can you tell me that an internal combustion engine, a supersonic combustion ramjet engine, an ion drive, and a nuclear detonation orion drive are all the same because they make you go forwards.
Depending on how you use it, if you are using it as an analogy for magic, potentially all of them can be used the same way. They do have different mechanisms, but for an analogical device to describe a system whose precise mechanisms are unknown, they are basically analogies for function and characteristic, since you don't have knowledge to analogize the mechanism itself.

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Beside the point if you're arguing for mass based particles rather than energy.
If it's massed based particles for this component, then you can and do accellerate them.
So, what's your position. Massive particles or massless energy. Let's clarify that now rather than you going back and forth between energy and massive particle theorems.

Quote:
Your concession is accepted. By indicating 'pressurization', you are actually responding to charging. As charging is a culmination of whichever energy.
And your concession is accepted in completely failing to even modify your own theory to account for the ability to push the beam.

Quote:
And I don't even have a built in dedicated math processor. It takes longer to type than to read.
And how long did that take you? Without the calculator. I know it is solvable eventually - that's why I chose what is basically a multiplication question.

Quote:
Nice attempt to sidestep the point. But we both know a dedicated computer is built for rapid computation and the human brain was never wired to do so. (Exceptions are certain people with mental 'disorders' such as autism that have wiring in their head different. They look at equations more insanely comprex and DO solve them flippantly.) Trying to upset it by using the weakness of the human brain in mathematics is erranious and we all know anyone with half a brain of intelligence knows that when it comes to computer programming, sentience is more computation heavy than weather forecasting.
The POINT, which you are trying to sidestep, is that ultimately sentience is no proof for fast solving of equations and in fact you are doing a lot to elaborate on reasons to why.

You have no clue of how RH is wired (and remember that while the brain may have more inputs, the brain also has various dedicated cortexes to handle a lot of the work, and RH without the inputs won't have equivalent processors, just the equivalent of our cerebral cortex), so you can't say whether math is a "weakness" as you put it. For all we know it is a neurally networked slow-propagation analogue layout similar to our brain. The fact we observe that it had to rely on a human to solve the problem of guiding about 12 slow moving bombs onto a target, even though surely working out the correct commands to send would be easy for a computer, says tons about the fact you can't just assume RH has the kind of computational abilities you'll expect.

If it makes those who use other shows in their argument feel any better, highly advanced (even sentient or near-sentient) computers that have apparent difficulty in solving the relatively simple calculations involved in fire control are only all too common in sci-fi, such as the battle droids in Star Wars. There are a variety of external and internal mechanisms used to explain this, but the end result is the same - as depicted they just aren't solving the fire solutions very fast or very accurately despite being computers w/ sentience.

Quote:
On top of this, the human brain functions as an integrated electrochemical network processor. The chemical processing, while making you nearly immune to EMP of all but 'Fry your Ass' levels, produces a very noticable lag in processing time compared to a purely electrical based processor. The lag is most noticeable when testing reflexes to the extremeties.
Why do you assume RH necessarily uses the analogue of "electrical" processing rather than electrochemical? If anything, it is magically powered, and if magic is as slow as we often see it to be, its propagation would be more similar to electrochemical processing than electrical or fiber optic.

Just the levels of energy RH has to handle on a regular basis may be a good reason to choose a more robust electrochemical-equivalent system.

Quote:
RH, being a magical intelligent device, is first and foremost, NOT an organic network processor and does not HAVE chemical lag times save for the chemical lag times in the brain of its master.
Now you are just assuming things you don't know.

Quote:
Using the basic calculator on my computer, which is a really stupid non-senstient math processor. It didn't even take the time to blink when I hit enter to solve for X.
X = 3.36626317686652585299228560758e+62
And you've just proven that sentience and non-sentience is not necessarily a big factor in the speed it took to solve for X (remember your computer also solved the problem of how to present the answer on the screen for you). Thus proving my point.

Quote:
That being said, the rest of your argument is trying to circumvent rather than address.
Nice handwaving for a person who hasn't yet been able to address the time and pressure requirements, and one must wonder about your assessment abilities when your attempt to deny my point about sentience only walks into my hands.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-02-03 at 21:47.
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Old 2009-02-04, 05:06   Link #1928
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In that case, the definition of "energy" is clearly different from the scientific concept. I have no problem with this - it is after all, hardly a scientific paper in any way. The problem is when you decide to try and smash it against the scientific concept.
... The way you phrased that makes it sound as if I was the one who began smashing it against scientific concepts.

Me being one of the leading members of the 'it's magic, it doesn't work like regular science' pack, that sounds silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The point is that most of what you claimed is not really so different in many ways from what is possible. As for the claim magic can accomplish all this with only "minor" alterations, we know so little about the details of magic that it is entirely possible, even probable, that saying it can accomplish all this with "minor alterations" is similar to a hypothetical sentience entirely made out of magic particles saying that we accomplish what we do with only "minor alterations" to fermions. After all, no matter which atom in what combination, it is electrons, protons and neutrons (going down to bozons and all those quantum particles).
With 'minor' I mean that a single mage doesn't need months of work in a huge factory with many helping hands and massive resources from outside the body to fly, whereas someone who wants to fly a plane would first need to have one constructed with said problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
By the way, the fact you can concentrate mana is another clue as to its nature as a massive, rather than massless particle.
Even though it is blatantly labeled an energy in the booklets? Not to mention the part that says it doesn't lose any power over distance, that sounds more like an energy that something material being launched. In fact, that bit is in clear contradiction of Storm's point in 1.
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Old 2009-02-04, 07:00   Link #1929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... The way you phrased that makes it sound as if I was the one who began smashing it against scientific concepts.

Me being one of the leading members of the 'it's magic, it doesn't work like regular science' pack, that sounds silly.
Actually, when someone justifies the idea that it is not energy by pointing out that the observable characteristics of magic is basically antithetical to the scientific definition of energy, and you try and quote from a book meant for layman and can't even use "high-speed" or "instantaneous" (don't complain; can you even imagine the Ep7 shot if it was literally instantaneous?) in the usual sense, you are trying to hit science.

Quote:
With 'minor' I mean that a single mage doesn't need months of work in a huge factory with many helping hands and massive resources from outside the body to fly, whereas someone who wants to fly a plane would first need to have one constructed with said problems.
If you don't like planes. How about a bird, darn it. It is also theoretically possible to create the plane via nanotech, though that technique is somewhat out of our hands.

Now, also, please justify how making magic "energy" (in the scientific definition, not the unknown but presumably lay definition used by the booklet) will improve on your complaints.

Quote:
Even though it is blatantly labeled an energy in the booklets?
Obviously, the book is not using the same definition as we are. At least it is just using the lay definition rather than a definition one can hardly recognize.

Quote:
Not to mention the part that says it doesn't lose any power over distance, that sounds more like an energy that something material being launched. In fact, that bit is in clear contradiction of Storm's point in
For that to literally happen, the beam among other things cannot glow. Glow means the radiation of light energy, which means it IS losing energy. And don't say the book wins. You can't even IMAGINE a Divine Buster without the pink glow and you know it, yet if it glows you are losing energy already. And if you allow an unknown but non-zero loss rate to restrain the statement, or to say that Nanoha (because she's still feeding extra mana) can maintain the power of the beam over "long distances" despite the leakage, which are the only practical solutions, then...

Also, again, if the beam is "energy", you won't be able to see pink from the side (think of looking at a flashlight from the side, while it is shooting in an unobstructed direction - unless it reflects off something the rays won't hit your eyes). And unless the beam is completely non-interactive with air, which seems unlikely given how it must soon interact with the roof, it will lose some energy there too.
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Old 2009-02-04, 07:07   Link #1930
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Ark, you do realize that at this point you are basically calling the booklets false, right?
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Old 2009-02-04, 12:00   Link #1931
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no, he's saying they are oversimplified.

Energy does not, properly speaking, exist. There is no such thing as 'Pure' Energy.

all that 'energy' is is a measure of the capacity of a system or process to do work

Work being defined as a meaningful change in the state or circumstance of the subject.

Going by this, the Beam is NOT a beam of energy, but rather a beam that Carries energy to where it is required to do work (the work in this case being to blow stuff up, or more technically, to break molecular bonds and volatilise the target substance, assuming an inorganic target)

now, what Are the candidates for this beam?

Well, we know it's Magic. However, we don't properly know how magic behaves except by observation.

so, we approximate by making a comparison with something we do know that can offer a similar behavior to that observed.

The models Proposed include an electromagnetic energy comparison, and a particle beam comparison.


The electromagnetic wave model suffers from a velocity incompatibility; Electromagnetic waves travel at the speed of light (well, not, actually; they ARE slowed in atmosphere). The observed beam does not travel at light speed or anything approaching it. How fast it does travel is up for debate, but I think it's agreed that is not instantaneous or anywhere close.

The beam does not appear to be subject to the inverse square law either.

also, the observed beam is not noted to suffer atmospheric refraction, nor any reflection (granted, no real opportunities have arisen for that one). It appears to possess a significant mass component as well (recoil, knockback on opponents, scattering forwards of blast debris; these are possible in an Electromagnetic wave based system but the apparent values appear to be largely higher than such a model would tend to indicate.)

The visible glow would tend to support a loss of energy due to atmospheric collisions converting beam energy to randomised heat and light.


so, those are the cons against an Electromagnetic/photonic model. That's not to say such a model is necessarily outright wrong, only that these concerns would really need to be explained somehow.


The particle model does address some of these issues.

The glow can be a result of Particle interactions within the beam, or interactions of the particle with the beam's containment. The energy lost is converted to randomised heat and light, including scattering of visible light photons.

The velocity is more compatible with what's observed.

since particles have an intrinsic mass, the recoil, knockback and forward scattering issues are easier to explain.

The beam is not subject to the inverse square law, but is subject to particle scattering; beam range is still limited in effect, but the mechanism is different, and can be more easily addressed by altering the containment/beam density. By contrast, the Inverse Square law is an absolute

As for ATC's point about any possible containment also being a defence: yes...but they do visibly have that defence: Shields, Barriers.

so why aren't they inviolable?

well, a possibility (and that's all it is) is if the beams are able to use a particle-laser model to align the particles initial velocity; in this case, the scatter force would be much weaker than the force along the attack vector; path of least resistance and all that. Thus, a much weaker (relatively) containment field would confine the beam for longer.

but when that beam hits a similar field at a perpendicular angle, the energy transfer is much, much greater; in this case, a couple of things can happen:

1: the shield/barrier holds. This leads to:

A: the beam backs up on itself until the pressure forces build to the point where the containment is overcome and the beam splashes, scatters or deflects through it's own sidewalls rather than through the opposing defence. As a result, the particles and the energy they carry is lost as it is diverted around and away from the target. This is how Barriers are stated to work: primarily through deflection

B: The particles continue to back up on each other, the containment still holds (more likely at shorter ranges, I'd think). The energy density grows until the containment fails suddenly and spectacularly; we have an explosion at the interface between beam and shield/barrier; as a result, the energy is consumed before hitting the target; aside from some knockback, the target is unharmed. This is how shields are sated to work, I believe (doesn't this actually happen a few times? Beam hits shield, shield holds, explosion?)

in both these instances, the major determining factor is elapsed time, which in turn depends on the ability of the beam containment to hold; if it fails gradually, we get A. if it fails suddenly, we get B.

2: The beam's kinetic energy along it's primary axis allows it to overcome the repulsive effect of the defence shield/barrier; the shield/barrier breaks and the particles continue to the target. If the shield/barrier is itself a particle effect (particles suspended in a containment field, much like a Gundam-style Beam shield) some particles may be expended in collisions with the defence particles or particle capture by the defence shield's containment, but the combination of repulsive effect and greater kinetic energy, as well as possibly greater particle numbers and so higher charge density and so greater repulsive effect forces the defence particles out of the way. The particles continue to the target.



This is why I personally tend to favour the particle beam model over the Electromagnetic wave/photonic model.

That's not to say either is necessarily right; they are models we use to approximate with, and we know we don't have all the variables or behaviours to work with...
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Old 2009-02-04, 12:23   Link #1932
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*shrug* The particle model would appear more plausible, what with Nanoha's Gundam influences.
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Old 2009-02-04, 13:08   Link #1933
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My point is thus: Magic power is stated to be an energy. Saying it can't be an energy because it doesn't behave like energy is calling the booklets false.
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Old 2009-02-04, 13:57   Link #1934
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Not necessarily true.

Even in modern science, the fundamental forces are believed to all have an associated particle which mediates their influence.

The Strong Nuclear Force: Gluons

The Weak Nuclear Force: W+,W- and Z particles

Electromagnetism: Photons

Gravity: Gravitons or the Higgs Boson

so even if Magic is indeed an energy, that doesn't preclude it from having an intermediate Vector Boson which carries that energy

ergo:

Magic: Mana Particle
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Old 2009-02-04, 14:05   Link #1935
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So instead of energy, it's 'energy with a particle?'
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Old 2009-02-04, 14:08   Link #1936
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While it's always possible that the thaum exists (come on, guys, if we're going to talk about subatomic magical particles, let's use the commonly-accepted term for them! ;p), there's just not enough information in Nanoha about the nitty-gritty function of magic to make any conclusions about it whatsoever.

It's obvious that magic involves a funky interaction with the universe, and not just "oh, it's a different kind of particle or energy", because AMF works. It's a lot easier to inhibit magical effects than it is to inhibit physical ones (if you take "inhibit" to mean "to create a zone where they don't function at all"; it's probably easier to inhibit physical stuff with armor than to make an AMF, heh.)

We're comfortable talking about magic as both particle and wave because we've run into a lot of other things that function just like that. But it doesn't have to be. Heck, it could be -neither-; nobody talks about magical particles, nor the "wavelength" of a certain spell...
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Old 2009-02-04, 17:01   Link #1937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
well, if we accept for the moment the Particle model of Mana, there are a couple of potential limiting possibilties:

1: if the particles are charged in some way (that is, either electrostatically or magnetically or in some other 'magical' value we do not know) then there may be internal repulsion in the beam due to like charges repelling.

There may come a point where compressing the beam any further becomes prohibitively expensive in energy terms due to this internal repulsion.

Such repulsion would also have knock-on effects in terms of beam range, however, since it would lead to an increase in beam scattering, increasing the rate at which the beams would lose cohesion.

2: And possibly relating to 1:
Compressing the particles down beyond a certain limit may lead to the particles undergoing Fusion...

now, when Nuclear Particles undergo Fusion, this can be Bad...(if not done under controlled circumstances)

There's no telling what Mana particles might do when they Fuse...but it may also be similarly Bad (again, if not done under controlled circumstances)

(Has visions of Yuuno yelling at Nanoha and Fate: " How many times do I have to say it!? DON'T Cross the Streams!"

Nanoha: Aww, but it's FUN!")
Wasn't the whole "crossing the streams" thing the main reason Chono started to interfere in the frist place? And if I remember it could have been very very Bad, as in a major distortion of space time.
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Old 2009-02-04, 17:06   Link #1938
Keroko
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Actually, Chrono interfered because of the Lost Logia, which are pretty nasty when you cross them the wrong way.
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Old 2009-02-04, 17:50   Link #1939
AdmiralTigerclaw
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If this conversation leads to 'modify the frequency of the M-Particle wave so that it resonates with the mage's barrier and allows it to pass through', and other 'Deflector Dish' solutions to problems, I'm going to Base Delta Zero the place.
Let's avoid treknobabble. Technobabble is just fine, but Treknobabble... Dear God. They can do ANYTHING with a Navigational Deflector. It's a wonder they haven't renamed it the Starfleet Swiss Army Knife.
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Old 2009-02-05, 00:20   Link #1940
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Actually, Chrono interfered because of the Lost Logia, which are pretty nasty when you cross them the wrong way.
As in a "Destroy planets/galaxies" kind of nasty.
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