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Old 2009-02-05, 03:42   Link #1941
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
So, target range can't be more than 383m, probably less, and 48 frames or so. Fortunately, there were not one, but two cutscenes. Cutscenes are time honored ways of repeating action, and in fact, if you look at the 24173-24193 cutscene, you'll note that in the first frame, the arrow wasn't glowing but glowed later. If you review how the arrow increased in glow in the 24152-24172 sequence, you can see that really, they were doing the first scene all over again, tracking the viewpoint of the arrowhead. Given this, it seems reasonable that the second cutscene also loopbacked about halfway so we can see the arrow hit the target.
You know, the thing that amazes me about this part is that you actually used dramatization as an explanation to back up your explanation here. A real case of irony here, if they serve to invalidate your calculations, then noooo we can't use dramatization as an excuse. But when a scene appears that would smash your deadfast belief that calculations are always accurate, then suddenly dramatization becomes a valid method of explaining a scene!

Seriously, why go half-way? If dramatization can explain why Signum's arrow is supersonic, then why can't it explain why Divine Buster Extension is instant?

I really shouldn't be doing this, but like hell I'm going to let this slide...
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Old 2009-02-05, 04:25   Link #1942
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*shrugs* Arkh already showed his hypocrisy ages ago, so I'm not too surprised. And in his own words he's the bigger hypocrite, due to him being so half-assed here.

*goes back to casually SoD-ing The Unit*
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Old 2009-02-05, 04:25   Link #1943
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Because Vita had enough time when the beam was coming at her to go "NO WAY!"

Even without dramatization, that's enough time to make the beam acquire a travel time. Plus it all occured as one complicated panshot without cutting. So either they pulled a bullet-time, or the beam really took six seconds. (And Vita made the mistake of sitting there staring at it.)

Either way, Vita had enough time to complain about it by the time it was at the point of no return which means it's not instantanious.
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Old 2009-02-05, 05:02   Link #1944
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*shrug* You have enough time between seeing an M2 and getting hit to go "No Way!" Particularly if it's her internal thought, but made vocal for the audience's sake.
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Old 2009-02-05, 06:45   Link #1945
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^ What Goose said.

There are multiple ways to Rome, after all. Going by the bullet-time example, as soon as Nanoha shoots, bullet-time enters, which means that the moment Vita goes 'No way!' is actually the same time Nanoha fired the shot.
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Old 2009-02-05, 08:16   Link #1946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
*shrugs* Arkh already showed his hypocrisy ages ago, so I'm not too surprised. And in his own words he's the bigger hypocrite, due to him being so half-assed here.

*goes back to casually SoD-ing The Unit*
Nice ad hominem attack here... I understand you at least learned some law. Even a communist People's Court will give a show of listening of someone's defense before passing "judgment".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You know, the thing that amazes me about this part is that you actually used dramatization as an explanation to back up your explanation here. A real case of irony here, if they serve to invalidate your calculations, then noooo we can't use dramatization as an excuse. But when a scene appears that would smash your deadfast belief that calculations are always accurate, then suddenly dramatization becomes a valid method of explaining a scene!

Seriously, why go half-way? If dramatization can explain why Signum's arrow is supersonic, then why can't it explain why Divine Buster Extension is instant?

I really shouldn't be doing this, but like hell I'm going to let this slide...
No problem. It is important for you to grasp SoD concepts, so at least you hit right. Letting it slide merely means you'll ask the question again later. But I actually find it amazing that you object. While it might feel nice to win an argument, one must say that even if you are right, crushing dramatization under the heel is NOT in your strategic interest.

The best you can do is make me say "OK Keroko, I am human and can get subjective once or twice a year too. OK, no timecuts. Direct contradiction. Out of universe vs in-universe is automatic victory for Out of Universe for reasons previously explained."

I can also go "It was technically supersonic, as proven by the shockwave. For an instant at least. After that presumably supersonic drag slowed the arrow back down to subsonic and in the end the average was ~145m/s or so. Nobody ever said the arrow was supersonic its whole flight." How do you like these solutions, Keroko.

Anyway, more than actually supporting or rejecting dramatization, I am going on the principle of retaining the maximum amount of data. That's why you see "fortunately". It is not much different from "Fortunately, they never provided any values for the BJ's ability to accept shock, so I don't have to say they perform the physically impossible, nor have to throw away the book entirely."

I observe that the sequence was not contiguous, thus, there is no guarantee that there was no overlap or gap between the sequences. In that case, the need to rationalize all data pretty much mandates that I take a scientifically valid solution that fits the evidence, rather than one that does not. If all I have to do is throw away an assumption that says the frames are necessarily time contiguous intercut, well, then that's the solution.

You'll also notice that I didn't solely use the need to reconciliate all data, let alone make an appeal to dramatization, but ALSO pointed out evidence that makes the theory they were indeed doing repeats in this specific sequence (rather than appealing to an unrelated scene, let alone another anime) a high probability. In short, regardless of my preferences or feelings toward dramatization, the evidence actually mandates I do so.

As for WHY you can't do it for Divine Buster Extension. Wait, you've written something down there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
^ What Goose said.

There are multiple ways to Rome, after all. Going by the bullet-time example, as soon as Nanoha shoots, bullet-time enters, which means that the moment Vita goes 'No way!' is actually the same time Nanoha fired the shot.
1) Even "bullet time" won't get you that.
2) It was one long continuous shot from launch to impact as ATC pointed out. Which does not allow you to overlap the scenes in time in search for a solution.
3) Nanoha was yelling "BASUTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" through about half the six second sequence, which VTLed the scene (remember the importance of VTL), and which means you can't shift the time compression around. It also means even if there was a scenecut, your ability to shift it backward or forward to time is very limited, if not eliminated.
4) Even if she kept quiet, to turn six seconds into an instant (let's take it not completely literally and say that getting it to half a second or below is enough) will have required the frequencies of the entire soundtrack to be over 10 times their normal value. Not having a voice loosens the physically plausible limits, but 10 times normal frequency - it'll work only if the scene doesn't have sound of its own. If we say "instant" = under 1 frame, the scene will be mostly silent as most of the sounds are compressed to ultrasonic frequencies.
5) Finally, "high speed" and "instant" (the latter of which is impossible in a literal sense anyway) do not have the specificity of "supersonic" or even better "400m/s" (and if it was "400m/s average", even better yet).
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Old 2009-02-05, 11:24   Link #1947
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There seems to be a misunderstanding here, as you seem to be under the impression that I disagree with the usage of dramatizing techniques to explain the scene. I don't. While the method you chose wasn't what I would have done (I would have gone for scene 2 being slowed to show the arrow flying in more detail then just a flash) it is by all means an explanation I agree with.

Now, why I took the time to note this is that it's obvious that you do consider such techniques to be a valid explanation, but when it comes to other scenes that can profit from such an approach, you reject the possibility and deny canon. After all, Signum's Sturmfalken is also noted to generate a sonic boom after impact, so the speed can't be slowed.

Oh, and as for 'maximum data retaining' you're already throwing out a lot of data by rejecting the booklets. Yes, I know, you claimed the booklets to be the opposite of what they are on the sole base that they lack numbers, but if there is one thing that this thread has proven, its that the majority of the fans don't like numbers. Remember when I said that I agreed that the booklets 'might have been written in a way that read best?' This is one such case. Numbers make the eyes of many fans go @_@. That's a fact, and this thread is perfect proof of that. So to make the booklets accessible to a larger number of fans, they leave out exact figures and instead use words. Does that somehow make the booklets less canon?

No.

The booklets are still a source who's main purpose is to inform, thereby still making them a better source of information then one that has been made with the main porpose to entertain.

Even when using the hierarchy of canonical age (new canon overrides old canon, I believe thats a rule you're fond of using) booklets come out on top, considering they were made after the series had finished its airing run.
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Old 2009-02-05, 12:06   Link #1948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
*shrug* You have enough time between seeing an M2 and getting hit to go "No Way!" Particularly if it's her internal thought, but made vocal for the audience's sake.
If you see an M2 pointing at you, sure.

But if you see the .50 cal bullet when it's a dozen feet away as the buster was from Vita when she voiced her thought... not so much.

Essentially, Vita voices her thought around the time the beam was reaching terminal point. She still could have dodged it up to that point.
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Old 2009-02-06, 02:21   Link #1949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
There seems to be a misunderstanding here, as you seem to be under the impression that I disagree with the usage of dramatizing techniques to explain the scene. I don't. While the method you chose wasn't what I would have done (I would have gone for scene 2 being slowed to show the arrow flying in more detail then just a flash) it is by all means an explanation I agree with.
Technically, that's an allowable interpretation (it doesn't violate a scientific law as a VTLed one would), though I won't pick it unless I have to because slowing images intrascene knocks out the time data (regardless of feelings towards dramatization this will be the end result). To help you understand it, it is the visual analogue of saying "high speed" is not contradicted because technically the author never defined exactly what he meant by high speed - I don't love such solutions but the anime wins in specificity and reliability due to its nature.

Quote:
Oh, and as for 'maximum data retaining' you're already throwing out a lot of data by rejecting the booklets. Yes, I know, you claimed the booklets to be the opposite of what they are on the sole base that they lack numbers, but if there is one thing that this thread has proven, its that the majority of the fans don't like numbers. Remember when I said that I agreed that the booklets 'might have been written in a way that read best?' This is one such case. Numbers make the eyes of many fans go @_@. That's a fact, and this thread is perfect proof of that. So to make the booklets accessible to a larger number of fans, they leave out exact figures and instead use words. Does that somehow make the booklets less canon?
It doesn't make them less canon, but it does make them more interpretable and flexible to reconciliation, on more levels than one.

Any time when two sources have to be rationalized, the more flexible source almost always effectively "loses out" simply because it is the only one that can be bent.

For example, suppose that one text source says that SF Ship X is "over 100m long". Text Source 2 says that SF Ship X is 4382.385m long. So, what is the length of the ship. It is 4382.385m. Yes, of course, 4000+m is not what one usually thinks of when he hears "over 100m long", but it is not contradicted - we only have to throw out an assumption. Effectively, even though they are of the same canonicity, Source A "loses out". But there is really no other option to keep both sources, so that's the only solution.

In a fight between visuals and qualitative text on technical matters, usually, that means text, since visuals quantify many things whether the author intended to or not.

You'll notice that this time, the anime was "bent" a little more than usual. That's because with the text source was quite specific. In comparison, the anime, with its cutscenes, is relatively flexible. Within the flex zone, the anime fits the text.

That doesn't happen very often however, not in MGLN. And whether the intent was to entertain or not, the result is the same.

That's not to say qualitative text can't have an advantage. Technical things aren't its forte, but it'll probably win out in things like relationships, on the same principle. For example, suppose BPHaru comes in with a picture of Nanoha and Fate being almost R-rated intimate. Meanwhile, text sources or dialogue say they are friends. So, are Nanoha and Fate a couple.

Quote:
The booklets are still a source who's main purpose is to inform, thereby still making them a better source of information then one that has been made with the main porpose to entertain.
I'll argue that booklets are at least equally intended to entertain.

Further, they are clearly subsidiary and by "intent", probably a lot less weight went into their production. Anyone can easily imagine that the job was tossed to the most junior staffer who probably spent more of his time being a messenger and buying drinks than working, and who scribbled up the text over lunch so he can spend the last half of lunch hour Netsurfing. Is that really supposed to be given more credibility than the budget and staff gobbling animation work?

Quote:
Even when using the hierarchy of canonical age (new canon overrides old canon, I believe thats a rule you're fond of using) booklets come out on top, considering they were made after the series had finished its airing run.
Not that fond. I wasn't even pushing extremely hard for the novel to override the anime, though I did suggest it as arguable (mostly, I was calling for the retention of anything not specifically contradicted)...

Anyway, a new source does have some priority over an old one, but only when other factors are more or less even.

In this specific case:
1) The DVD (read: visuals) came out simultaneously with the booklet. There are some minor differences, but the DVD basically affirms what the TV version says (if the DVD Ep7 As actually did speed up the bolt measurably, I'll be most interested but that seems horribly unlikely). So the time measure is simultaneous.
2) In-universe vs out of-universe. This is a presentation choice, and in-universe is more enjoyable to many, but it plays murder with its ability to stand in case of contradiction because it became "The Facts of the Universe" vs "As far as someone in that universe knows". As I said, time is generally not a high-weight player - it is more of a tie-breaker than anything.
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Old 2009-02-06, 13:44   Link #1950
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I'm tempted to give more weight to textual references than animation; the latter can just get it wrong (or change a measurement because it makes the shot look better), whereas the former is generally an explicit attempt to explain "how things in this series work".

Sure, if there are issues of direct contradiction, the work is obviously more "canon" than supplementary materials. If the booklets said that Raising Heart ran off of Key lime pie, we could safely discount that, for example. (However, I still hold to the idea that Subaru runs off ice cream.)
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Old 2009-02-07, 06:20   Link #1951
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I think it's about time I stop discussing these kinds of things with Ark. It's obvious that our viewpoints of how to analyze animation are hardly compatible, and neither of us has so much as an inkling of changing our point of view.

That being said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
(However, I still hold to the idea that Subaru runs off ice cream.)
Sentoukijin, or at least Type-0 ones, have rather large fuel tanks.

I mean, where do they put all that? They've eaten more food then the size of their bodies (and Subaru notes Ginga is eating less then usual?!)! I want stomaches like that as well! Ginga and Subaru aside, Erio is not shying away from it either!
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Old 2009-02-07, 22:53   Link #1952
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Old 2009-02-08, 14:50   Link #1953
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I mean, where do they put all that? They've eaten more food then the size of their bodies (and Subaru notes Ginga is eating less then usual?!)! I want stomaches like that as well! Ginga and Subaru aside, Erio is not shying away from it either!
I'm not sure about how Erio manages it (ah, well, he's still a growing boy), but maybe the combat cyborgs' stomachs are artificial and link to the same kind of dimensional storage space where the Devices keep all their extra parts?

...tries not to imagine the food bill in the post-StrikerS Nakajima household, with six of them under one roof...

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Old 2009-02-08, 14:58   Link #1954
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Kinda makes me wonder if Fate and the like eat that much as well. Rein has already shown to have quite the appetite for someone her size as well...
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Old 2009-02-08, 16:09   Link #1955
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Could just be fast digesting, not to mention the fact that stomachs can expand quite a bit.

Plus you have to take into account the difference in physical size in Japanese, as well as their food portions on each plate in relation to that size.

They're already naturally short, so the physical proportion of food that looks normal is smaller than what we'd see. So they could be eating half the amount we THINK they're eating, and then that just puts them around what people can stuff away at a hotdog eating contest.
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Old 2009-02-08, 16:25   Link #1956
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Well, from the way Erio is scooping from the box, I'd say it's a fair bet they're akin to bento boxes, which are quite filled.

Of course, the true eye-popper on that page is Ginga, who has the biggest pile of boxes behind her and has Subaru noting she's eating less then usual. O_o

I'm going with the laws of anime on this one. Like how Lina, Luffy and any other character with an appetite can work away entire restaurants and merely feel satisfied.

And, as Dezo noted, it's funny to imagine Genya's face when the bill comes in. :3
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Old 2009-02-08, 16:27   Link #1957
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They're probably well paid.

You know the saying.

"An army fights on its stomach."
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Old 2009-02-08, 16:40   Link #1958
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So Jail isn't trying to conquer the world per se; he's just desperate for capital to feed the Numbers? I can imagine how cranky Tre gets when her Ben & Jerry's supply runs out...
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Old 2009-02-08, 16:46   Link #1959
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Now I am imagining Cinque maniacally eating chocolate bars like Mello in Death Note.
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Old 2009-02-08, 17:04   Link #1960
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Where a terran army spends much of its budget on ammunition, the Bureau's army spends that money on food. A fair trade, considering the TSAB doesn't have that much ammunition issues.

And I'm hereby saying that Otto runs on bars. Especially ones with nuts.
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