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View Poll Results: Code Geass Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 35 29.41%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 40 33.61%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 21 17.65%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 8.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 6.72%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.68%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.84%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2007-03-19, 02:18   Link #321
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
I'm not particularly interested how people will label me. If it's debateable, then I will put it out there.

I am not arguing on behalf of the empire. I am arguing rationality. While the empire as an incarnation/entity is evil and unjustified, they have individuals among them who do not share the same sentiment. Should ALL Britannians suffer because they are associated with the empire? I understand that the Japanese are not faring so well compared to their oppressors. But simply because things are not exactly as you want them to be, does not necessarily mean that everything should turn out the way you expect it to.

I'm really arguing from an observer's standpoint. I have only countered your arguments because you have adopted the standpoint against the empire. There is always the possibility for good to come out of things.
You're not "objectively thinking" if you jump to conclusions like that.
"Should ALL Britannians suffer because they are associated with the empire?"
Where the heck did you get this from? NO ONE is talking about anything even remotely related to that.
If you were truely thinking objectively, you wouldn't start rambing about totally unrelated moral issues not even up on the subject matter.

Debate, is when both sides address on the same issue.
What you are doing here, is not debate. You're throwing unrelated issues simply because you're not understanding the problem.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:21   Link #322
Juvyniled
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
You suggest the 11s should stop fighting for the betterment of Britannia. that makes you no better.
Wow, you completely twisted my point.

I don't believe the Elevens should stop fighting to better the Empire. I believe there are equally better ways to effect a change in the system through this proposal. Certainly they can fight to regain their country, but the issue I'm focusing on in that scenario is casualties. And that is exactly right that the Britannians shouldn't get everything they expect from the Elevens. But not all Elevens believe that fighting is the best option either.

---
Britannians will suffer as a direct result of Japan receiving its autonomy. It is in fact related to the situation we're arguing because the Elevens will essentially do what their oppressors did to the remaining Britannians. It's not the morality of this matter that I'm arguing, it's how it all relates to the end result. You yourself are arguing how the Japanese will be cripped by Social Slavery and what not as a result of this Special Administrative Region. But you also proposed that if the country were to become independence once more, then the Japanese would have everything back to the way it was before with one exception: there are still Britannians in the country.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:23   Link #323
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Like Aohige pointed out, the Special Administration Zone is in fact, just a glorified ghetto for the Japanese. It's unlikely to be able to make independant policy when it's surrounded by Brittanian's military.

The biggest problem i see for Zero was losing the support of the people. He needs a solid public support against the Empire, and this move just weakens the public's resolve to topple the Empire's regime and this might hold true for his own OoBK as well. Ultimately, his planned coup detat would reflect badly on OoBK when the Empire is being "nice".

Quote:
Originally Posted by VCV
Zero will fight for Justice, and it will automatically mean removal of the Empire. It doesn't actually matter if Lulu can't live in Japan anymore after it is all over; Nunnaly would be safe from assassination, and second to avenging his mum, that's all that matters.
ok, the first bit about Justice just makes me giggle and think of episode 10 when C.C told Lelouch "That's not the face of Ally of justice". IMO, Lelouch only fights for justice when it helps him. Ultimately, he's just fighting to avenge his mother and for the safety of his sister. Justice, equality, Japan's independence is just a byproduct of that process.

But you are still right, he does fight for justice because it serves him in the end.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:25   Link #324
aohige
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Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
Wow, you completely twisted my point.

I don't believe the Elevens should stop fighting to better the Empire. I believe there are equally better ways to effect a change in the system through this proposal. Certainly they can fight to regain their country, but the issue I'm focusing on in that scenario is casualties. And that is exactly right that the Britannians shouldn't get everything they expect from the Elevens. But not all Elevens believe that fighting is the best option either.
See, you prove my point right.
You ARE in fact, a Suzaku-sympathizer, and not some "observer point of view".

Your suggestion of changing the the system through the system itself, is exactly where Suzaku's stand is in the issue.

And most of us are standing in Lulu's stance.

When you side your ideals to one side, that's no longer "objective".
Of course, neither is ours. We just happen to side with Lulu.

Quote:
You yourself are arguing how the Japanese will be cripped by Social Slavery and what not as a result of this Special Administrative Region.
No sir, I never said that. You simply read what I meant wrong.
Elevens are treated as social slaves NOT as a result of this new program. I said, they are treated as social slaves by Britanians, PERIOD.
Prior to the special district. And even though the district may grant some previledge, it's still under the Britanian rule.

What you're suggesting is, for Elevens to give up and accept their ruler, since they are already there.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:33   Link #325
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
See, you prove my point right.
You ARE in fact, a Suzaku-sympathizer, and not some "observer point of view".

Your suggestion of changing the the system through the system itself, is exactly where Suzaku's stand is in the issue.

And most of us are standing in Lulu's stance.

When you side your ideals to one side, that's no longer "objective".
Of course, neither is ours. We just happen to side with Lulu.
Now, now, calm down aohige.
I know you can get a little emotionally involved with this topic, but we shouldn't lose our cool. Calling him a Suzaku-sympathizer, accurate or not, does not help the argument any. Let's fight for our case with logic and thought, shall we?
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:35   Link #326
aohige
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Now, now, calm down aohige.
I know you can get a little emotionally involved with this topic, but we shouldn't lose our cool. Calling him a Suzaku-sympathizer, accurate or not, does not help the argument any. Let's fight for our case with logic and thought, shall we?
Wait, wait, since when is calling someone a "Suzaku-sympathizer" a cut-down?
I'm simply pointing out that his suggestions are exactly what Suzaku's arugments are.

Oh, nevermind, I get it. sarcasm.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:35   Link #327
Juvyniled
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Likewise, Lelouch is changing the system through his own means as well. You can't really classify Suzaku as a pacifist since he is a soldier and it has become quite apparent that he does not intend to change the system through politicking. Though I do somehwat sympathize with Suzaku's position, I am not using his ideology to effectively determine whether this proposal can lead to better results.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:39   Link #328
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
Likewise, Lelouch is changing the system through his own means as well. You can't really classify Suzaku as a pacifist since he is a soldier and it has become quite apparent that he does not intend to change the system through politicking. Though I do somehwat sympathize with Suzaku's position, I am not using his ideology to effectively determine whether this proposal can lead to better results.
None the less, what is the "better result" you had in mind? I am curious about what that is.

Ends don't justify the means. But without means, there can be no ends. And without Justice, nothing is justified.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:40   Link #329
aohige
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Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
Likewise, Lelouch is changing the system through his own means as well. You can't really classify Suzaku as a pacifist since he is a soldier and it has become quite apparent that he does not intend to change the system through politicking. Though I do somehwat sympathize with Suzaku's position, I am not using his ideology to effectively determine whether this proposal can lead to better results.
Right, and to get back to my original point...
It's pointless to argue, since you obviously lean towards "lesser casualties, accept the current government" in the same sense Suzaku is, and we don't see that solving the root of the problem in Area 11.

Thus, it's completely at stand-still.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:47   Link #330
Juvyniled
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I believe this whole argument comes down to the probable success or likelihood of failure of the SAR.

I will say this, it is mostly speculation as to what would have been a result of such a proposal. Hence, it has become somewhat subjective but it is still mostly objective. We all know it will not succeed, but whether it could have is what I'm trying to argue.

I understand that everybody feels that this will only increase the tension and animosity between Elevens and Britannians. For the most part, I'd agree that the differences between them will stand for a long time. But if we separate them and let them operate on their own agendas, then in time they could come to terms and potentially work together for a better resolution. Given that the region is a rather small area, it'd be rather difficult to relocate all the Japanese people into it. But in time, to meet the needs of the people, they might expand the area to better suit everyone. The times they're in are really hostile times. They have no chance if this continues to reconcile matters, and it's not an issue you can effectively change in the blink of an eye. It takes time. Let the Japanese people establish themselves once more, gain some influence outside of miltaristic power, and they may essentially regain their country.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:53   Link #331
aohige
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Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
I believe this whole argument comes down to the probable success or likelihood of failure of the SAR.

I will say this, it is mostly speculation as to what would have been a result of such a proposal. Hence, it has become somewhat subjective but it is still mostly objective. We all know it will not succeed, but whether it could have is what I'm trying to argue.

I understand that everybody feels that this will only increase the tension and animosity between Elevens and Britannians. For the most part, I'd agree that there the differences between them will stand for a long time. But if we separate them and let them operate on their own agendas, then in time they could come to terms and potentially work together for a better resolution. Given that the region is a rather small area, it'd be rather difficult to relocate all the Japanese people into it. But in time, to meet the needs of the people, they might expand the area to better suit everyone. The times they're in are really hostile times. They have no chance at this point to reconcile matters, and it's not an issue you can effectively change in the blink of an eye. It takes time. Let the Japanese people establish themselves once more, gain some influence outside of miltaristic power, and they may essentially regain their country back.
Difficulut??? You mean impossible?

The foothills of Mt. Fuji isn't that large you know... you can't even fit everyone in the Tokyo area, let alone the entire Japan!
That's like trying to cram the entire population of US into Manhattan.

And yes, you're right, it's all about whether it works or not.
And I believe Lulu is right, when he said it's nothing but a day-dream.
It's completely doomed from the beginning, and serves as nothing but a tool to destroy the OoBK.
Why do you think Schneizel approved it, told her he'll tell Cornelia... and DIDN'T?
Because he knew exactly what results this would have.

An Emperor could pull it off. Euphemia? Not a chance.
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:54   Link #332
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
I believe this whole argument comes down to the probable success or likelihood of failure of the SAR.

I will say this, it is mostly speculation as to what would have been a result of such a proposal. Hence, it has become somewhat subjective but it is still mostly objective. We all know it will not succeed, but whether it could have is what I'm trying to argue.

I understand that everybody feels that this will only increase the tension and animosity between Elevens and Britannians. For the most part, I'd agree that there the differences between them will stand for a long time. But if we separate them and let them operate on their own agendas, then in time they could come to terms and potentially work together for a better resolution. Given that the region is a rather small area, it'd be rather difficult to relocate all the Japanese people into it. But in time, to meet the needs of the people, they might expand the area to better suit everyone. The times they're in are really hostile times. They have no chance at this point to reconcile matters, and it's not an issue you can effectively change in the blink of an eye. It takes time. Let the Japanese people establish themselves once more, gain some influence outside of miltaristic power, and they may essentially regain their country back.
...Assuming of course, that Euphie doesn't get outranked again like last time with Suzaku's suicidal mission. Quite simply, you are assuming good-will on the part of the Britannians which doesn't exist.
To meet the need of the people? Which people? Most certainly not the Japanese. The only people the Britannians need to fulfill the needs of is those of the Britannians, and that means the destruction of the Special Zone. Britannians have everything to lose and nothing to gain by allowing the Special Zone to exist, never-mind expand.

It's not fair? Of course not. As I said before, Britannia has no Justice within its heart, so time itself will do nothing. Zero was wise to use Justice as his cause, corny as it was, because there is no way Britannia can become Just without falling apart.
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Old 2007-03-19, 03:01   Link #333
Juvyniled
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Well I suppose I'll stop on that note since it is really all speculation and even if Lelouch was not a factor, Schneizel is the determining factor and we will never know how that plays out. And Schneizel didn't tell Cornelia because he knew that she would not accept it and may try to intervene in the matter.

I had no intentions of mischief from this or to incite anger in anyone. So if I did, my deepest apologies. But I really still do feel that this could have been a workable plan.

Anywho, I did somewhat stray off course of the topic and I suppose I shouldn't stay up late. Sleep deprivation makes people rather irrational I'll drop this topic for now and wait for something else to come up.
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Old 2007-03-19, 03:17   Link #334
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Well, how well a SAR would work depends on a lot of factor especially when it comes to implementation.

In reality, Hong Kong is a SAR as well and it works.

However, in CG, it's kinda hard to see it work unless the SAR have enough resource to support itself and trade. Otherwise, it's just a cage to separate the fox from the chickens.

I definitely doubt it will work, cause Japan is a major producer of Sakuradite. Which idiot ruler would let go such a critical war resource just cause of resistance/terrorist? Most importantly, the higher up isn't exactly your "Equal Rights Loving guy" but a conquerer who achieve supremacy through military might.
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Old 2007-03-19, 03:55   Link #335
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Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Well, how well a SAR would work depends on a lot of factor especially when it comes to implementation.

In reality, Hong Kong is a SAR as well and it works.

However, in CG, it's kinda hard to see it work unless the SAR have enough resource to support itself and trade. Otherwise, it's just a cage to separate the fox from the chickens.

I definitely doubt it will work, cause Japan is a major producer of Sakuradite. Which idiot ruler would let go such a critical war resource just cause of resistance/terrorist? Most importantly, the higher up isn't exactly your "Equal Rights Loving guy" but a conquerer who achieve supremacy through military might.
Very interesting...I had always been living in Hong Kong until recently...
I thought there was nothing wrong under the ruling of British government. I would argue that it was because of the colonization that makes Hong Kong as it is now. In 1997 Hongkong is "returned" to china, and I personally don't see any positive improvement since.

May be Area 11 is not so bad after all...;p
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Old 2007-03-19, 04:10   Link #336
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Very interesting...I had always been living in Hong Kong until recently...
I thought there was nothing wrong under the ruling of British government. I would argue that it was because of the colonization that makes Hong Kong as it is now. In 1997 Hongkong is "returned" to china, and I personally don't see any positive improvement since.

May be Area 11 is not so bad after all...;p
The British Empire had its bad periods, but it never got so cocky as to treat its colonies like numbers. At the very least, those in the colonies can become full citizens. None of that "honorary" rubbish.

And let's face it, Hong Kong is still a colony. It's just changed masters.
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Old 2007-03-19, 04:32   Link #337
wuabel
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And let's face it, Hong Kong is still a colony. It's just changed masters.
true true, may be I should be Lulu after all ;p
~Free Hong Kong! Create a new world!!~ Go mE~
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Old 2007-03-19, 08:23   Link #338
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The British Empire had its bad periods, but it never got so cocky as to treat its colonies like numbers. At the very least, those in the colonies can become full citizens. None of that "honorary" rubbish.
That's is just bull shit. The best you can get at HK is the "oversea citizen" status, which mean nothing and give you no right to live in UK. The populations in British colonies, other than those established by British majority (e.g. Canda, Australia) have always been treated as second class citizen at best. Just how do you think African and Indian are treated by the British Empire before WW2?
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Old 2007-03-19, 08:36   Link #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvyniled View Post
I agree with most of that... but if it's insult for them to be stuck on a piece of land, which is in fact THEIR homeland, and to be called Japanese, which they ARE, then I suppose being called ELEVENS and having to earn the title of Honorary Britannian just to live life.... hmm, doesn't sound to bad compared to the former does it?

I understand what you're trying to say, but Euphemia had to start somewhere. It would be impossible for both countries just to accept the conquerer simply giving the conquered nation's country back to them. It's already difficult enough as it is.
True Euphie is doing what she perceives as right in her own heart. The problem is for better lack of the term her innocence. I agree she had to start somewhere but her out of the blue announcement could have been done better, like an official press conference to discuss announce they were thinking about a specialized zone, although her brother didnt make it any better.

Some people think peace is peace as long as they are alive and living i for one do not, but i dont expect everyone to think like i do. If i were an 11 and i heard this it would make me want to join Zero even more if i had not done so already. Be free in my homeland or death not be free in a piece of it.
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Old 2007-03-19, 08:49   Link #340
ShigeruChan
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It looks like Lelouch finally has that fire in his eyes again. He already fucked himself but not killing Suzaku and by giving him the order to live. He should have Suzaku killed and "persuade" one of the royal family to assassinate Euphie. There will definitely be dissent among the Black Knights. You could see it in the way Karen reacted to the announcement. She should have been dead a long time ago.
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