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Old 2007-03-16, 07:59   Link #101
Sorrow-K
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Why have people just conveniently forgotten for the sake of argument that one of the most gripping military dramas of the last two years, FMP!TSR was a Kyoto Animation series? Many of Kaioshin_Sama's arguments hold no weight unless he addresses FMP!TSR (and I know he hasn't seen it), since it's existence alone pretty much disproves much of what he's saying regarding KyoAni's apparent dismissal of fans of mecha/action/"intellectual" series. (And, let's face it, a significant percentage of mecha anime dance on that line between 'intellectual' and pseudo-intellectual).

Ok, we all got it ages ago that you've somehow come to the conclusion that the existence of moe in anime somehow threatens intellectual plots, which were prominent in the 80s and 90s (not true... not in a decade that brought us such non-hits Devil Hunter Yohko, Gundam Wing, Fatal Fury and a hell of a lot of mediocrity) and somehow dying post 2000 (again not true). Ignoring momentarily that these genre are somehow a relic of the past (not true, mecha is still prominent post-2000 with the Seed series, E7, RahXephon, FMP and countless others, just as intellectual adventure shounen isn't dead with series like FMA, etc). But the problem a lot of us have with mecha series and much of the action genre in general, particularly the Seed series, is that there's a real dearth of true originality in such series and many are just recycling the same plotlines over and over.

Sure, slice-of-life and moe series are doing the same thing with its characters, but the difference is that they tend to be character-focused and slight variations to the characters can still make them seem fresh... while it takes more than slight variations to a stale plot we've seen a million times before to make it seem fresh. These genres can more readily get away with merely evolving with time rather than having to re-invent themselves with totally new concepts because all it takes to enjoy such series are likable characters and likable characters can generally be cut from the same sheet provided the execution of the series (ie, atmosphere, directing, visuals, use of background and development) is good enough to make us care about the characters. For plot-focuses series, unless you're doing something totally new, it's hard to care and/or not find yourself muttering "didn't I see this all before in <insert slightly older anime here>"... which is why so many mecha and action titles (action more than mecha in this case) are so completely throwaway.

And, I totally disagree with you're dismissal of 2005-mid 2006, since it was, IMO, a particularly rich time in anime. We saw Monster, Mushishi, Gankutsuou all within that time... three anime which will almost inevitably be discussed among the best of the decade, (hell, I'd unabashedly say these three titles are among the best of all time), once the decade has finished. We also saw brilliant titles including Honey & Clover, FMP!TSR, BECK, Fantastic Children, ARIA, Akagi, Bokura ga Ita, Nana, Haruhi and Noein in that time, just to name a few. Notice a trend with these series, btw: most of them are character-focused drama and/or slice-of-life. But these are the titles that I among others critically acclaim and if you wish to choose to conveniently ignore them, that's fine.

You're also wrong about moe as a consequence of dating sim games. Moe is, like almost everything in anime, something that's been slowly evolving over time from as early as the 80s. Otonashi Kyoko from Maison Ikkoku immediately comes to mind as one of the early tsundere archetypes. Wiki cites a The Castle of Cagliostro character as one of the first moe characters. Arguments could be made Miyazaki's Nausicaa, Sheeta (Laputa) and Kiki are moe characters (although some of that may be me clutching at straws). Hell, My-HiME's Tokiha Mai reflects many of the characteristics of Nausicaa in an anime made 21 years afterwards, and she's a moe character... but at the same time, like many other so-called moe characters, she's a lot more than that. So, I think you're wrong about that.

What I think a lot of us would like to see on Kaioshin_Sama's part is a little more acceptance of the whole phenomenon, and a little less dismissiveness when so-called moe-antics get in the way of the story. Drawing a line at 1/4 moe is a ridiculous thing to do, if you ask me. Titles like My-HiME, Suzumiya Haruhi, Higurashi and Kanon which do, admittedly, burn an amount of time on such antics still manage to maintain an oustanding story and lots of character development once you get past that. Hell, one of your pet 2006 series in Welcome to the NHK (I'm trying to figure out what this series had that a lot of the other series I mentioned before didn't, because I actually thought it was rather mediocre by its end) almost completely burnt one of its main characters on moe antics and I don't hear you berating that. Burning time on such things is fair enough provided you make the time to come back to these characters and give them the attention they deserve later (and provided it's entertaining), but when you almost completely cripple a character like NHK did with Misaki, it's much more difficult to forgive, IMO.

The point I'm trying to make is, at the end of the day, when you judge an anime, the genre shouldn't matter, since all genres have the same intention: to entertain (just in different ways). It's the execution that really should be the defining thing. And all genres have their share of well-executed and poorly-executed titles. I think I'd just like to see a more open-minded approach to the whole thing, rather than an instant dismissal at the first signs of things that, for the majority of us, don't really have a huge bearing either way on our opinion of the show.
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Old 2007-03-16, 08:01   Link #102
velocity7
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Woah guys, seriously, drop the rant. It's derailing the thread like mad.

And Kaoshin_Sama, if it tickles your fancy, there's a whole bunch of Gundam references in CLANNAD.
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Old 2007-03-16, 09:44   Link #103
Skane
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Smile

Random Thoughts on CLANNAD Preview:
---- ----
  • Not really liking the vibes being emitted by the main heroine, but don't worry. This is normal. I seldom adore the main heroine in most anime that I have watched.
    .
  • No impression about the male lead. The preview was more focused on the girls, Nagisa in particular. I hope the fanartists don't disappoint me and come up with Strawberry Panic crossover-fanart.
    .
  • So... after a weird dog and an unnaturally tame cat, they decided to go with a fuzzy-wuzzy boar? O-kay.


    .
  • Despite having no real knowledge of the girls' traits, I have decided to shamelessly cast my vote for this one. A girl that has the blessing of KyoAni's "trademark" Lambda Driver special effects? Sounds good to me.



    Of course... if "tradition" holds true, this girl will become sidelined shortly thereafter( or simply marginalised) leaving me to angst over the unfairness of life.
    .
  • On the flip side, the following girl invokes feelings of horror and trepidation. Is she brain-dead? Mentally-impaired? Am I suppose to laugh at this scene? If so, it is not working.



    She IS cute-looking, but I am sorry. Straws up one's nose subtracts heavily from your adorableness-scale.
    .
  • As a wild-card, this girl might be one.



    Her character design is sufficiently unique enough to pique my interest. I just hope her personality is not grating.
Cheers.
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Old 2007-03-16, 09:49   Link #104
velocity7
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@Skane:
- Nagisa is actually not too bad for a main heroine, you might like her.
- Tomoyo's "Lambda Driver" is actually her infamous 64-hit combo on Sunohara. A must-see. It's even in the game as well. Though she should be doing punches too... (cue Hokuto no Ken jokes)
- That thing with the straw in Fuuko's nose... better you play the game for more context on the main character playing pranks on her.
- Kyou = win. Too bad she's going to get sidetracked in the anime... game's a different story though. I don't recall the dictionaries being called "murder dictionaries" (as Sushi-Y calls them), as I am translating her route in the game at the moment. Though, calling them that might not be too far from the truth.

Spoiler for game:
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Old 2007-03-16, 09:50   Link #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maids! Maids! Maids! View Post
Nagisa


Mostly Kyou (a little Ryou)


Tomoyo


Fuko
We finally get some more mature looking characters ^_^. /cheers
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Old 2007-03-16, 09:52   Link #106
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Quote:

No impression about the male lead. The preview was more focused on the girls, Nagisa in particular. I hope the fanartists don't disappoint me and come up with Strawberry Panic crossover-fanart.
Nice to see someone who want the same things from fanartists. >;3
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Old 2007-03-16, 10:59   Link #107
houkoholic
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I like my mecha and I like my VN. The great thing about anime is that its diversity and many talents can allow both to *co-exists*, haven't all these anime we watch told us enough times already that no single being can do everything and be good at everything? So I'd just like Sunrise do what they do best and let Kyoani do that as well so I can continue to get excellent shows like Code Geass, yuusha series, (some) Gundam, Key adaptations and light novel adaptations.

That said, Clannad is just a monster, it's definitely going to be harder to animate than both Kanon and AIR as it has elements of what made both hard to adapt in it - AIR's scope and Kanon's interwining nature. I can see that a lot the experience they would had gain from AIR and Kanon should help them greatly when adapting Clannad.
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Old 2007-03-16, 12:05   Link #108
nani
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Although I was half-expecting KyoAni to make some crazy announcement at the end of Kanon (they did the same at the end of AIR), but a Clannad TV series is totally beyond my expectation. I am pleasantly surprised.

Somehow, my favorite scene from the promotional video is Sanae's sobbing scene, reminds me a lot of what Misuzu will look like when she grow up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
[*]Despite having no real knowledge of the girls' traits, I have decided to shamelessly cast my vote for this one. A girl that has the blessing of KyoAni's "trademark" Lambda Driver special effects? Sounds good to me.

Of course... if "tradition" holds true, this girl will become sidelined shortly thereafter( or simply marginalised) leaving me to angst over the unfairness of life.
Two words: Tomoyo After

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
[*]On the flip side, the following girl invokes feelings of horror and trepidation. Is she brain-dead? Mentally-impaired? Am I suppose to laugh at this scene? If so, it is not working.

She IS cute-looking, but I am sorry. Straws up one's nose subtracts heavily from your adorableness-scale.
It's very difficult to defend Fuuko without spoiling her story. Let's just say that I cried a lot at the end of Fuuko's story. Hopefully, you will be the same when her story is finished.....
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Old 2007-03-16, 12:17   Link #109
Daniel E.
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After reading the few manga chapters available, I noticed a few things that remind me of Kanon.

Just out of curiosity..... what was made first? Clannad or Kanon?
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Old 2007-03-16, 12:20   Link #110
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Kanon first. (1999 IIRC, while CLANNAD should be around 2003-2004)

Quote:
Nojima Kenji, who was announced as Tomoya's voice actor for the upcoming CLANNAD drama CDs, would be an awesome choice, I think (think Nanaya Shiki from Melty Blood).
if Melty Blood Nanaya Shiki's seyuu becomes the male lead voice, it WILL be gorgeous (plain and simple : utter absurd charisma ! )
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Old 2007-03-16, 12:21   Link #111
Shiroth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel E. View Post
Just out of curiosity..... what was made first? Clannad or Kanon?
Kanon, Air then CLANNAD.

(It was answered just a minute before me. :3)
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Old 2007-03-16, 12:31   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maids! Maids! Maids! View Post
Tomoyo
looking at the trailer...this girl shone like a burning star...the mai type with more kick ass kungfu action?

yep i can say that kyoani is on a roll here :3
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Old 2007-03-16, 12:41   Link #113
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To be honest though...

Spoiler:
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Old 2007-03-16, 12:52   Link #114
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I think there are many ways to make a "faithful" adaptation.

According to fans of Kyoto Animation, the definition of a "faithful" adaptation is to make some amalgam that does justice to each one of the girl's paths. But let's not forget that the GAME itself does not have such a path - it has several separate paths that explore a particular girl's scenario in full.

I would prefer to see just one girl's path (in this case, Nagisa) explored in full, while the other girls play a side role and perhaps get an episode or two - in a way, they can be "truer" to the source material by adapting a particular story in the novel.

But if the director of Kanon 2006 is in charge of this, I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of the same. Keeping my fingers crossed, however - and hoping that this will blow Kanon 2006 out of the water.
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Old 2007-03-16, 13:00   Link #115
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Yeah after just seeing the preview for this after Kanon, this is on my too watch list!
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Old 2007-03-16, 13:08   Link #116
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Kanon first. (1999 IIRC, while CLANNAD should be around 2003-2004)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
Kanon, Air then CLANNAD.

(It was answered just a minute before me. :3)
So, Kanon is the oldest then.

Hmmm..For some reason, I though it was the other way around (Clannad being the first made). Guess I guessed wrong.

Anyway, hope the anouncement of the Tv series encourages the scanlators to work on some more chapters in the future.

EDIT:

Oh yes, thanks for answering!
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Old 2007-03-16, 13:09   Link #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSong39 View Post
I think there are many ways to make a "faithful" adaptation.
there are indeed several ways to be "faithful" (example : keep the philolosophy of the original writer, while changing the story itself, without attracting any berserking fans wrath)
Quote:
According to fans of Kyoto Animation, the definition of a "faithful" adaptation is to make some amalgam that does justice to each one of the girl's paths. But let's not forget that the GAME itself does not have such a path - it has several separate paths that explore a particular girl's scenario in full.
quite not... as we could see, people consider "faithful", because the anime was able to stitch all arcs, with the least flaws possible and creative ways to merge the arcs without any plothole.

Quote:
I would prefer to see just one girl's path (in this case, Nagisa) explored in full, while the other girls play a side role and perhaps get an episode or two - in a way, they can be "truer" to the source material by adapting a particular story in the novel.
that's your opinion, and it is fully understandable.
i prefer the other way around : since my inability to explore the source material fustrates me a LOT, an anime adaptation covering most of the original story is a nice service. why ? because it reduces the possibilities of plotholes, and also give more insights about most characters traits, and the real depth of the story. (in example, Shingetstuan Tsukihime gave like... not even 20% of the whole story altogether, which is pretty sad. arcueid is pretty poor in comparaison to Hisui and Kohaku, but meh... that's my opinion)

indeed, it doesn't help the process, since it will enlarge the required ressource, and might miss some points for most characters.
however, that will be the studio responsability to reduce at most theses black points.
Quote:
But if the director of Kanon 2006 is in charge of this, I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of the same. Keeping my fingers crossed, however - and hoping that this will blow Kanon 2006 out of the water.
at least, i would prefer to have a NICE anime, which would explain the gamers hype around CLANNAD (which i already understood a bit, via AIR and Kanon 2006), rather than blowing Kanon (especially that, according the comments, it isn't really the same archtype story)
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Old 2007-03-16, 13:22   Link #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
I like my mecha and I like my VN. The great thing about anime is that its diversity and many talents can allow both to *co-exists*, haven't all these anime we watch told us enough times already that no single being can do everything and be good at everything? So I'd just like Sunrise do what they do best and let Kyoani do that as well so I can continue to get excellent shows like Code Geass, yuusha series, (some) Gundam, Key adaptations and light novel adaptations.

That said, Clannad is just a monster, it's definitely going to be harder to animate than both Kanon and AIR as it has elements of what made both hard to adapt in it - AIR's scope and Kanon's interwining nature. I can see that a lot the experience they would had gain from AIR and Kanon should help them greatly when adapting Clannad.
That sounds very reasonable. It's a lack of that kind of balance normally that causes me to post like I do. Everywhere I go I get to hear how horrible everything I enjoy is and how all my favourite shows are devoid of character,and how Moe could solve any problem in any of these shows have (and yes I actually do see that all over the place). Normally when I try to defend them I get told how wrong I am, then when I try to point out fault with why Moe isn't a cure for all that ails you I'm wrong again. So then I get to see one of my other pet peeves in the unbudging double standard.

In case nobody knows what I'm talking about its the Kyoshiro To Towa Sora board with comments about how if you remove the mecha and leave the moe it becomes "much better and bearable". Another example, the very clever H-Game opening parody to Code Geass is now being cited as what would make Code Geass a better show on Youtube and other boards.

So if you guys are under light scrutiny in an attempt to learn more, I'm under constant shelling from all sides both in my own territory and when I come onto niche boards to see what's what. I know how upsetting it can be to see your favourite genre appear to be assaulted and ripped at as its almost a constant for me, so I'll gladly call a ceasefire now, but I have nothing against Moe at all, if I did I wouldn't have this avatar. Sorrow-K got it perfectly when he said he "gets it already". The 1/4 rule is necessary when I have so many shows I'm watching and I don't feel like wasting my time on too many antics, and its not just Moe antics, its time wasters of all kinds, that just happens to be what the time waster is 90% of the time. If anyone wants to continue arguing with me fine, but really I have nothing left right now that I haven't explained. I don't really think I've left anything in here to fight about though.

Anyway On-Topic the Boar-Pig looks cool and I don't know exactly what is up with the Chun-Li flurry kick, but its kind of neat too. I also don't know anything about Gundam references but if they do exist it would be quite the olive branch. I usually only see them coming from my side of the equation, which makes me very happy by the way as I'm always open to anything that makes Mecha more easily accesible to groups other than the base fandom. Rarely is it the other way around, the expection being Pani Poni Dash. I'm quite curious, can someone elaborate?
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Old 2007-03-16, 13:28   Link #119
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So Haruhi will be delayed? God damn KyoAni.
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Old 2007-03-16, 13:41   Link #120
Shiroth
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Originally Posted by Quajafrie View Post
So Haruhi will be delayed? God damn KyoAni.
Who said anything about delayed? Nothing has been mentioned on CLANNAD'S air date (though i'm hoping Spring 2008 --- if you get what i mean).
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