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Old 2007-03-26, 15:39   Link #21
Rurik
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I want to ask, were do people got the idea that Sasuke is a good leader? Seriusley, in what chpater we got to enjoy Sasuke unprecedented leaderhip qualities? I think people are confusing “Leader” with “Boss”

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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
I am not a sasuke fanboy but i think he was a good leader and have probably become a better leader in the time skip. sasuke is actually the kind of leader where they tell him to get the job done, and he will get it done no matter what the cost, even if he as to risk the lives of his teamates.
Doing the job done even by making his own teammates die?, That was makes a bad leader, and it was made clear on why Shikamaru was selected as a chunin.

The concept of leader comes from the concept of group/team/organization, if you don’t have those, you are not a leader, so if you get all of your Teammates killed for the Sake of your personal goal, that means you are a Bad leader.

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ps: Naruto is one of my fav characters. but if you are a naruto fanboy and think that you can argue that naruto is a great leader you will make a fool of yourselves so don't start
No, I’m not implying that Naruto is a good leader, rather, I said that Sasuke should be as good leader as Naruto, and this is because none of them have shown to be or either good or bad leaders, but what we have seen so far are not traits of good leadership.
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Old 2007-03-26, 15:53   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I want to ask, were do people got the idea that Sasuke is a good leader? Seriusley, in what chpater we got to enjoy Sasuke unprecedented leaderhip qualities? I think people are confusing “Leader” with “Boss”.
In the Forest of Death, when he made up that password bullocks.
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Old 2007-03-26, 15:53   Link #23
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman View Post
In the Forest of Death, when he made up that password bullocks.

That’s not a Leadership trait, that is been smart . And wasn’t Sasuke the one who wanted to fight Kabuto for the scroll? Without even thinking that this fight could called the attention of other teams looking for a scroll and thus putting his team in Danger?
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Old 2007-03-26, 15:56   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I want to ask, were do people got the idea that Sasuke is a good leader? Seriusley, in what chpater we got to enjoy Sasuke unprecedented leaderhip qualities? I think people are confusing “Leader” with “Boss”



Doing the job done even by making his own teammates die?, That was makes a bad leader, and it was made clear on why Shikamaru was selected as a chunin.

The concept of leader comes from the concept of group/team/organization, if you don’t have those, you are not a leader, so if you get all of your Teammates killed for the Sake of your personal goal, that means you are a Bad leader.

not necessarily, i see a good leader is jus one who manage a team efficiently, and not attack head on. sasuke will not have them strap on bombs and do kamikaze attack, he will have plans that if initialized correctly can be successful without people dying. whether they die or not will depend on their own skills.

they are ninjas and dying is part of the job description. a ninja's true objective has to be to complete the mission, coming back with teamates is just extra credit.


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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
No, I’m not implying that Naruto is a good leader, rather, I said that Sasuke should be as good leader as Naruto, and this is because none of them have shown to be or either good or bad leaders, but what we have seen so far are not traits of good leadership.
i never said you, i just read some one saying that this is about to come a fanboy(sasuke vs naruto) argument so i just gave the heads up to the naruto fans
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Old 2007-03-26, 15:56   Link #25
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-Sasuke a team leader? Well, shouldn't we wait to see if this will be an actual team or not? Perhaps Sasuke is just freeing these people for kicks and giggles? Maybe he wants to inquire their help in exchange for their freedom (but from the looks of that last person it seems like they don't need it)? But as far as team leader goes I suppose he'd make a decent one. I got no proof that says otherwise.
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Old 2007-03-26, 15:56   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
That’s not a Leadership trait, that is been smart. And wasn’t Sasuke the one who wanted to fight Kabuto for the scroll? Without even thinking that this fight could call the attention of other team looking fro scroll and thus putting his team in Danger?
Oh my god fine! ok you win!
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Old 2007-03-26, 16:09   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
not necessarily, i see a good leader is jus one who manage a team efficiently, and not attack head on. sasuke will not have them strap on bombs and do kamikaze attack, he will have plans that if initialized correctly can be successful without people dying. whether they die or not will depend on their own skills.

they are ninjas and dying is part of the job description. a ninja's true objective has to be to complete the mission, coming back with teamates is just extra credit.
Been a good leader is not about just managing a team efficiently, that is only a Boss, the concept of leader goes deeper than that, And no, Sasuke will not strap his team with bombs to do Kamikaze(he seems to have a little heart), but if this is a requirements to kill Itachi, he will do it.

And you are confusing the term of a Ninja in command with a Good Leader, the Ninjas are Soldiers, which means the mission is the most important thing. But there is a difference from a good leader - someone who actually cares about his teammates and will do everything on hand to finish the mission using his resources without compromising the life of his team- from someone in command-In the case of Sasuke, someone that if the opportunity present itself, he will give crap about the team to complete his personal goal.

People in Command are leaders, but that doesn’t mean that they are Good Leaders.


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i never said you, i just read some one saying that this is about to come a fanboy(sasuke vs naruto) argument so i just gave the heads up to the naruto fans
Well, you did say “you”, didn’t say who it was, and my post happened to be the one before your posted.

And Sasuke Bateman, I didnt win, if you feel that this part was Sasuke been a good leader, then be my guest, I just can't agree with it
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Old 2007-03-26, 16:14   Link #28
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i understand your point of view but i feel as if it can be looked at multiple perspectives that is all. i will stop debating now
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Old 2007-03-26, 16:25   Link #29
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i understand your point of view but i feel as if it can be looked at multiple perspectives that is all. i will stop debating now
Well, for me as long as Sasuke has his Thing for Itachi. He should not bee seen as a Good Leader, maybe the qualities are there in Sasuke, but I wouldn’t put peoples lives in the hands of Sasuke. As I neither would do it with Naruto…Dattebayo!!!!
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Old 2007-03-26, 16:34   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Been a good leader is not about just managing a team efficiently, that is only a Boss, the concept of leader goes deeper than that, And no, Sasuke will not strap his team with bombs to do Kamikaze(he seems to have a little heart), but if this is a requirements to kill Itachi, he will do it.
Rurik, I get the impression you are confusing a good leader with an ideal leader. Leadership involves several qualities and they don't necessarily involve good morals. Oro is an example of that. He wasn't just a boss, (Gatou is more an example of that) Oro had several qualiites of a good leader, he was able to inspire others to follow his cause, recognized and took advantage of the unique skills of his subordinates, he organized his own village and planned a coup of the Konoha that came close to succeeding. Yet his goals were utterly selfish and he'd sacrifice underlings on a whim. Sure, eventually he was defeated, but it wasn't because of his inability to lead.

I agree with Goshin, Syndicate and others when they say tha Sasuke might prove to be an effective leader if not an ideal one. I also believe his decisions in the Forest of Death support this. He took risks and made some mistakes yes, but I don't remember that necessarily being a sure sign of bad leadership. Unless they are facing Itachi directly, Sasuke should make reasonable decisions regarding his teammates actions and their safety
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Old 2007-03-26, 17:17   Link #31
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How is my argument stupid? He's a loner, loners do not produce good results as leaders. He has stated it constantly that people only slows him down. People who sees team members as mere obstacles cannot be a good leader, nor can someone who would abandon the people that cared for him for selfish reasons. Would you put your faith in that sort of person? I don't know about you but I wouldn't. A leader should be selfless and must put the safety of his companions ahead of anything. And Sasuke isn't the type to do that when it comes to Itachi. All he cares about is his revenge, he allows his emotions to overcome better judgement.
Well if he is loner like u say he wouldnt seek for team ..

He stated that ppl slow him down, he indicated on Naruto and Sakura i dont think he indicated on Kakashi ..

Is it forbiden to leave place where u dont want to be ?

They r fighters, not traveling expedition .. they will fight alone not like pussy teams 4v1 side by side and wait for someone to save them .. that is difference between good guys and bad guys. Thats why they wont put their fate in his hands, then in their own abilities!

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I ask those "Sasuke is a good leader" supporters this: If Sasuke is faced with the choice of saving his team while sacrificing a Chance to kill his Brother, would he do that?

If the answer is No, then Sasuke isn’t a good leader. A good leader will put the team first, if those interfere with his personal ambitions.
Well he already did that .. he wilingly sacrficed his life to save Naruto .. when they fought Haku .. SO answear on question is YES .. does that make him good leader ??

Last edited by SpiRo; 2007-03-26 at 17:42.
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Old 2007-03-26, 17:22   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Rurik, I get the impression you are confusing a good leader with an ideal leader. Leadership involves several qualities and they don't necessarily involve good morals. Oro is an example of that. He wasn't just a boss, (Gatou is more an example of that) Oro had several qualiites of a good leader, he was able to inspire others to follow his cause, recognized and took advantage of the unique skills of his subordinates, he organized his own village and planned a coup of the Konoha that came close to succeeding. Yet his goals were utterly selfish and he'd sacrifice underlings on a whim. Sure, eventually he was defeated, but it wasn't because of his inability to lead.
No, I’m not, But rather there is confusion between been just a leader (or more generically, been the one in charge, the boss), and been a good leader, been in charge of a group of people is been a leader, but been a good leader, or effective leader, is something that goes beyond that. Oro is someone that has good leadership qualities. We can say that Ideal liders doesn’t exist as each one can have a flaw.

Leaders can have twisted morals, but they needs to convince his followers to share his vision in order to be an Good/effective Leader, Sasuke goal is driven by What he personally wants just like Oro, but Oro have been shown to have influenced his followers and had the charisma to make others follow him and help him complete his goal; I haven’t seen any people inspired like that by Sasuke-Sama. eevn Sakura and Naruto.


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I agree with Goshin, Syndicate and others when they say tha Sasuke might prove to be an effective leader if not an ideal one. I also believe his decisions in the Forest of Death support this. He took risks and made some mistakes yes, but I don't remember that necessarily being a sure sign of bad leadership. Unless they are facing Itachi directly, Sasuke should make reasonable decisions regarding his teammates actions and their safety
As I said Sasuke haven’t shown either been a good leader or a bad leader, but what current Sasuke has shown, are not the quality of a good leader, because he is one willing to Sacrifice the followers which he has shown he could care less for, in the moment when he is faced with his Personal Goal (that’s looks moe like a Tyrant). We also can’t be Comparing the Sasuke from the Chunin test with the current Sasuke, because Current Sasuke has only One purpose in life and he doesn’t care for anything else besides this.

You said “unless facing Itachi directly”, but the purpose of a Leader with a team is driven by a Goal, unless something new comes up, Sasuke team Goal Is going to be Itachi (as the final Goal) so every decision will be based on that.

Sasuke decisions in the Forrest of death were basically 3, the password which wasn’t Leadership based, Giving the scroll to Oro, which was based on Fear, and The One to fight Kabuto which was a low point on been a leader, as he didn’t weight on the consequences of his acts.

And as You can see, this so called Leadership decision on giving the scroll to Oro, was not shared by neither Sakura or Naruto, which were supposed to be inspired by Saskues Good Leader decision; if your followers doubt your decisions, then you haven’t inspired them as a good leader.

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Well he already did that .. i wilingly wanted to sacrfice his life to save Naruto .. when they fought Haku .. SO answear on question is YES .. does that make him good leader ??
He did that because: it wasn’t Itachi, it was a Sasuke very different from the one he is now and it was saving Naruto, his Closest Friend, BUT, Haku isn’t Itachi, Naruto isn’t Seigutsu and the others 3, And this is an Sasuke who relived the agony of seen his clan been killed by his brother while he got owned without any efforts; so your comparison is flawed.
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Old 2007-03-26, 17:40   Link #33
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He did that because: it wasn’t Itachi, it was a Sasuke very different from the one he is now and it was saving Naruto, his Closest Friend, BUT, Haku isn’t Itachi, Naruto isn’t Seigutsu and the others 3, And this is an Sasuke who relived the agony of seen his clan been killed by his brother while he got owned without any efforts; so your comparison is flawed.
This was question!
If Sasuke is faced with the choice of saving his team while sacrificing a Chance to kill his Brother, would he do that?

And my answear is ..... YES ! .. Becouse he did that when they fought Haku ..

So does that make him good leader ? Now answear me, becouse u pointed that (If the answer is No, then Sasuke isn’t a good leader. A good leader will put the team first, if those interfere with his personal ambitions..).

EDIT: I didnt say that he is "good" leader and that he will cry when his teammate die .. i agree with Syndicate and Sabaku kyu

Last edited by SpiRo; 2007-03-26 at 17:59.
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Old 2007-03-26, 17:51   Link #34
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How is my argument stupid? He's a loner, loners do not produce good results as leaders. He has stated it constantly that people only slows him down. People who sees team members as mere obstacles cannot be a good leader, nor can someone who would abandon the people that cared for him for selfish reasons. Would you put your faith in that sort of person? I don't know about you but I wouldn't. A leader should be selfless and must put the safety of his companions ahead of anything. And Sasuke isn't the type to do that when it comes to Itachi. All he cares about is his revenge, he allows his emotions to overcome better judgement.

Picking a fight? No. Saying it how it is? Yes; and also, his anger is obviously towards the fact that people are pointing out the bad stuff about Sasuke not the fact that I pointed out that Sasuke fans are making another pro sasuke thread.
because you start with fanboys this and that everyone has a charcter they like.

sabaku kyu at least tells whats important and i can agree with him on what he says cuz he views it as simple facts and comes to a conclusion you start with sasuke-fanboys this that so ima rip you off trhough arguments

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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
That’s not a Leadership trait, that is been smart . And wasn’t Sasuke the one who wanted to fight Kabuto for the scroll? Without even thinking that this fight could called the attention of other teams looking for a scroll and thus putting his team in Danger?
that was the whole part of the chuunin exam to get scrolls from other teams and then go to the center of the aera. so saying other teams trying to take their scroll is allready the case regardless of what he wanted to do to kabuto.

furthermore what makes dying for the team a good thing as a leader is that the requirements or something.

when i play total war and i have 5 5 star generals if they die im fucked i keep them in the back to be a support and to lead forces same way a leader needs to give order and make sure the goal function as is the case.

saying that when team members die but you achieved the goal makes you a bad leader is also funny. We cant see teams like ninja going out tthinking that they all will come back alive in war peopel die thats a fact so team members die if the leader did the objective i say he is good. The question is how much was death casualties avoidable. Thats not something disputeable with sasuke he is not gonna be like ima get my group killed for my goal. he mor ethen anyone realized they all have their own gaol simpley because he wanted to do his own stuff. reason why he let suigetsu get his sword.

Further more he doenst even have the sense like i want to be team leader etc etc etc . A good leader is a good leader oro is also a good leader. if we for example say. akatsuki with its army whiped out. konoha but many of their subordinates died and konoha too that AL is still a good leader if he accomplished the goal if it was seen impossible. thus making him a good leader. maybe he is a brute who know still he had good leader capabilities. pussy's who worry about if their suborinates break their finger nails dont get results done in my eyes. escpially with ninja's

The fact that a leader needs to die if he deems in necessary to do that means that he team sucked cuz he coudlnt rely on his team to get the job done. The ones to actually to fullfil this role are the team memebrs ot the leader. The leader is there to lead not die but get the job done. Konoha wants capable team leader who can get jobs done. Not suicidal guys who want to get a 10 star rating cuz they had a heroic death. konoha needs to train new leaders all over again if the leaders die whats the point in that.

Reason why sasuke had such a hard time with his team was because sakura didnt do shit and naruto was a plain idiot sasuke was the only one that was a allrounder. if he was in a team with neji and shino and shiki that would be pure pawnage.

and the team would be better to guided by a leader then it would with people liek naruto and sakura. why i say this is because naruto is a failure when it comes to ninja concepts at least in naruto 1. Sasuke had to use his mind in order to make sure he knew who who was. what i mean is that in a team you need to be able to rely on others too to get something done or know them. sasuke KNOWS his team very well which is why he could pull that password thing off thats not something just 1 2 3 think off.

the fact he knows his team shows that he has the abilitiy to know what he can do with his team and expect from his team. strength and weaknesses. ALso the fact that he chooses specific peopel from all those 1000 peopel at oro shows he has some purpose and knows what to expect of them.

Sasuke is a ALLROUNDER, being a leader isnt a problem for him if he wanted to be one.

about the good leader thing. if i asked you do you think that khan of the mongols was agood leader what would you say. he was a bad leader? or any other? when to rival leader have to fight each other they dont see does he loves his people they see can they win or lose gt the job done or etc. what you see is emotional factors what i dont.

knowing that you talk about oro having good leader capabilitie sthe same sasuke displayed that password shows that. he knows his team knowing your team is one of the fundamental things to that. because you need to know what they can do and not. he kows whay he took suigetsu.

@goshin i have to agree on what you said about teh fear but im not sure on how much inded that can be called fear we need to see more of it. undoubtfully they talked with each other etc there is also no point for them to kill each other etc. knowing that the fact that suigetsu makes a 1st moves hows to me he isnt scared at all of him. Otherwise he wouldnt say all those things.

Last edited by Syndicate; 2007-03-26 at 18:48.
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Old 2007-03-26, 19:42   Link #35
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Nothing except a grateful widow in Shika's case
The entire revenge plot was just for Shika to have a clear path to Kurenai. Scandalous.

I really hope Naruto doesn't interfere. I would much rather see Team Sasuke vs. Akatsuki.
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Old 2007-03-26, 19:45   Link #36
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i think that is where the manga is probably heading, i doubt kishi would pull a gundam seed destiny
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Old 2007-03-26, 20:47   Link #37
Rurik
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Originally Posted by SpiRo View Post
This was question!
If Sasuke is faced with the choice of saving his team while sacrificing a Chance to kill his Brother, would he do that?

And my answear is ..... YES ! .. Becouse he did that when they fought Haku ..

So does that make him good leader ? Now answear me, becouse u pointed that (If the answer is No, then Sasuke isn’t a good leader. A good leader will put the team first, if those interfere with his personal ambitions..).

EDIT: I didnt say that he is "good" leader and that he will cry when his teammate die .. i agree with Syndicate and Sabaku kyu
Read the post you quoted, because you didn't, you are comparing what happened to Sasuke, 3 years ago and compared it to current Sasuke, I gave you the flaw he has that doesn't make him a good leader, the decision he made with Haku didn't had the emotional attachment it is has when you talk about His revenge against Itachi. as basically Emotions are the sole reason why people say Naruto lacks leadership skills

A leader has to make rational decisions always for the sake of the goal and the team, Sasuke is not going to act like that when its faced with Itachi.

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that was the whole part of the chuunin exam to get scrolls from other teams and then go to the center of the aera. so saying other teams trying to take their scroll is allready the case regardless of what he wanted to do to kabuto.
Please, one thing is getting the scroll from someone, the other is not calculating your selfish actions (which was basically what he did), and even so, you are just bluntly saying that Sasuke decision of giving the scroll to Oro was wrong.

for the rest of your post, I think you are misunderstanding me, Im not saying that a Good Leader is one that is going to prefer to save the life of his followers, than to achieve the goal, because I said Oro is a good leader.

What I talked about wasThe will of your teammates, You can say that you are are going to make a good leader, when your followers put their life on the line if necessary willingly for the sake of the Goal (in the case of th Ninja World).

Sasuke's Goal is just vengeances and it lacks purpose. And been a Ninja thats the point, if his followers are not willing to give their life for Sasuke to Reach his goal or even Give a crap about it, then Sasuke sacrificing the life of his Teammates for his personal ambitions is just been a manipulator and could be called bad leadership.

Regarding this team, I doubt this team is going to Work for Sasuke's goal, rather they will follow him because he is recruiting them, I don't see them been driven by Sasuke's goal, but barely following Sasuke lead, and by no means thats an example of good leadership.
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Old 2007-03-26, 21:00   Link #38
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Genghis/Kublai Khan was a warlord, they managed to take control but failed to maintain it, that within itself makes you a bad leader. The reason for world domination is a selfish thing, they failed to care for the people thus making the kingdom they built to crumble shortly after its construction. Now that I think about it, Sasuke is a good comparison to the Khans.

Oro imo was a tyrant, everyone that followed him lived in fear of death everyday. He spews lies about promising power when he'll just kill them off later when he doesn't need 'em anymore a.k.a inefficient slaves.

What all this arguing seems to boil down to is every person's perspective on what a good leader should have in terms of qualities. I myself prefer to have a leader who thinks of minimizing casualties and is still able to be a brilliant tactician. Maximus from the movie Gladiator is a good example, he treated his entire army as friends rather than pawns, everyone respected him for he thought of everyone as friends and at the same time capable of bringing glory.

No one said a leader had to be a heroic martyr for the sake of martyrism, but some people think a good leader that "they" would follow would have the quality of placing his teams safety over his own. It's as simple as that.

I agree with Rurik that Sasuke hasn't shown any good leadership qualities, there's that loner persona that has been to far etched in him in my eyes. Shika is a good leader, Sasuke is not, but thats just me.
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Old 2007-03-26, 22:05   Link #39
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in Naruto, a good leader isn't someone who cares more about the lives of their teammates than the mission, look at how Kakashi's father is treated when he failed his mission because he cared about his teammates.
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Old 2007-03-26, 22:09   Link #40
Sabaku Kyu
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Genghis/Kublai Khan was a warlord, they managed to take control but failed to maintain it, that within itself makes you a bad leader. The reason for world domination is a selfish thing, they failed to care for the people thus making the kingdom they built to crumble shortly after its construction. Now that I think about it, Sasuke is a good comparison to the Khans.
Okay, what are you talking about? Are you comparing Sasuke to an entire clan of leaders or Ghengis Kahn himself? 'Cause last I checked, Genghis Kahn never lost control of the Mongol empire during his lifetime. He was also an excellent leader. In fact the empire he founded lasted for generations after his death and formed the basis for a good deal of Chinese culture. The empire also brought great reform and prosperity to China, so that comment about the leaders not caring for the people is not valid. The clan eventually lost control, but no empire in history is permanent, that doesn't make all its leaders ineffective.


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What all this arguing seems to boil down to is every person's perspective on what a good leader should have in terms of qualities. I myself prefer to have a leader who thinks of minimizing casualties and is still able to be a brilliant tactician. Maximus from the movie Gladiator is a good example, he treated his entire army as friends rather than pawns, everyone respected him for he thought of everyone as friends and at the same time capable of bringing glory.
That is just one example of a type of leadership. There are many types of leaders with many different methods of leadership. How effective a leader is in accomplishing goal, maintaining control and utilizing their followers is what determines their merit as a leader. There is no one perfect definition of a good leader.

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I agree with Rurik that Sasuke hasn't shown any good leadership qualities, there's that loner persona that has been to far etched in him in my eyes. Shika is a good leader, Sasuke is not, but thats just me.
As SpirO said, if he was truly a loner he wouldn't be forming a team. He could've just as easily left Suigetsu and the others to rot in their prisons.Considering that Sasuke has never been in a true leadership position, I'd say no one's in a position to say for sure whether he will be a success or a failure as a leader.
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