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Old 2009-03-12, 16:46   Link #2041
Keroko
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Well, I'm merely stating a opinion. When you claim NanoFate as recycled material, I tend to disagree. As I don't know what I would have done without those moments to enjoy.
Did I claim them to be recycled..? Mreh, whatever, if I did I withdraw that statement. I don't like the term 'recycled material' myself. I don't see NanoFate material as recycled, I'm just saying that some of the scenes and scenarios were interfering with the separate plotlines for both characters.

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That's questionable. I mean, if Fate takes care of Erio and Caro, she's kind of a needed element. The same as Nanoha is a needed element for Subaru as she rescued her when she was a child. They can delve deeper into each characters backstory before they meet the aces, but that's not the only thing that needed improvement.

And either way, as I've said, so long as Fate continues to stay a part of the franchise, I don't mind if the focus Isn't directed towards her from time to time. More focus on other characters earlier will open more moments for the instances I truly enjoyed in StrikerS.
Hmm, well Erio and Caro sure, but Teana and Subaru's story would most likely be a pain for you to follow, as bar the rescue of Nanoha the Aces vanish out of their lives untill StrikerS.
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Old 2009-03-12, 16:53   Link #2042
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Hmm, well Erio and Caro sure, but Teana and Subaru's story would most likely be a pain for you to follow, as bar the rescue of Nanoha the Aces vanish out of their lives.
I think with Subaru it would have been good to show flashbacks of Nanoha saving Subaru, and then have some Ova or whatever to show Subaru's ambitions and how she progressed to the point where she could see Nanoha again. Teana can follow the same path to be a enforcer but for a different reason.
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Old 2009-03-12, 16:55   Link #2043
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That'd mean animating what happened in the manga, doesn't it? That could work.
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Old 2009-03-12, 16:57   Link #2044
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I don't see where they would have gotten the time or money for that though...or even market interest.
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Old 2009-03-12, 16:59   Link #2045
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I don't see where they would have gotten the time or money for that though...or even market interest.
If they're going to do any experimenting, I'd prefer it to stay in manga territory. It's cheaper and safer.
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:00   Link #2046
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Originally Posted by Keroko
That'd mean animating what happened in the manga, doesn't it? That could work.
I....I, havn't read the manga.

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I don't see where they would have gotten the time or money for that though...or even market interest.
Only a few one-shot Ova's. You would think there be enough fans of each characters to profit enough to atleast break even. And it would have left StrikerS with many more possibilities at that point.
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:05   Link #2047
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Only a few one-shot Ova's. You would think there be enough fans of each characters to profit enough to atleast break even. And it would have left StrikerS with many more possibilities at that point.
Profit, perhaps, but more like the Time doesn't justify Reward. The focus they would have to put down on an OVA would be less or vice-versa, the series gets less focus.
I'm just theorizing though.
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:06   Link #2048
Keroko
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I....I, havn't read the manga.
Well, it has exactly what you proposed for Teana and Subaru.
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:28   Link #2049
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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Erio and Caro weren't very important for the plot,
Apparently we were watching two different series then. The characters of Erio and Caro were important to the plot of the StrikerS TV series as well as the development of various new and returning characters. In the series that were the primary rivals to Lutecia and to her development for breaking free from Jail's control.

Also they were crucial in expanding upon the character Fate's social development between A's and MC077. They provided a look into how Fate grew and how her past affected her outlook on life and the lives of those around her. Not only that but they prove to be a key factor in her final fight against Jail, providing her with the needed support to overcome her own inner demons to defeat her opponents.

I would hardly call them not important.
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:30   Link #2050
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In other words, without them, Fate would not be post-StrikerS Fate as we know her.

Unless I misunderstood something awful by Eva's post...
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:31   Link #2051
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Erio and Caro were also two vital characters in teaching fate the trials of motherhood. Without them, no Fate-mama.
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:39   Link #2052
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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Apparently we were watching two different series then. The characters of Erio and Caro were important to the plot of the StrikerS TV series as well as the development of various new and returning characters. In the series that were the primary rivals to Lutecia and to her development for breaking free from Jail's control.
That's mostly independent of the main plot, that's why I said we may as well remove that branch if we were to rebuild the whole series.

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Erio and Caro were also two vital characters in teaching fate the trials of motherhood. Without them, no Fate-mama.
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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Also they were crucial in expanding upon the character Fate's social development between A's and MC077. They provided a look into how Fate grew and how her past affected her outlook on life and the lives of those around her.
I proposed to do it another way, just with Vivio and maybe with Chrono's twins. Or simply with the kids but don't giving the characters the importance they gave in Strikers. There are a lot of possibilities, be creative.


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Not only that but they prove to be a key factor in her final fight against Jail, providing her with the needed support to overcome her own inner demons to defeat her opponents.
I said that having her fighting along with Nanoha would have been better, so that scenario would not be like the one you mentioned.

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Old 2009-03-12, 17:41   Link #2053
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I said that having her fighting along with Nanoha would have been better, so that scenario would not be like the one you mentioned.
If that would have happened, the plan they had would have failed, the doc would have lived and everything would have started over. [BAD END]
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:46   Link #2054
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If that would have happened, the plan they had would have failed, the doc would have lived and everything would have started over. [BAD END]
I was thinking in a different scenario, including removing all the unnecessary characters. The fights for the conclusion of StrikerS would also have been probably sequentially, or at least the most of them, not simultaneously, something big like the end of A's would be a good idea I think, in open spaces and giving more importance to characters like Hayate that the fans wanted to see in action.

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Old 2009-03-12, 17:50   Link #2055
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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
That's mostly independent of the main plot, that's why I said we may as well remove that branch if we were to rebuild the whole series.
Actually, removing the Lutecia plot would lead to an underdevelopment of Fate as well. During their various encounters with the other Summoner they spoke about and were driven by the life lessons taught to them by Fate whom was drawing upon her own personal experiences and not wanting for them to grow up with the hardships she had endured.

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I proposed to do it another way, just with Vivio and maybe with Chrono's twins. Or simply with the kids but don't giving the characters the importance they gave in Strikers. There are a lot of possibilities, be creative.
With Vivio that point would be moot as Fate would have had to way to develop herself as a person with no interaction with children or a way to see her own faults in her desires versus what she is actually able to do. And with Chrono's twins we know that Amy is caring for them (having either changed positions or retired from the TSAB). With Fate's position as Enforcer it would not provide much time other than maybe the occasional visit. Not to mention dealing with someone else's children is quite different than dealing with your own as many, many people will tell you. Additionally Fate's own failures as a 'parent' (taking the title but not the complete responsibility) proves to be a development point for her own character in the series.

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I said that having her fighting along with Nanoha would have been better, so that scenario would not be like the one you mentioned.
Which would not be quite possible when you have both of them fighting for their own lives at their very best. Given the mental state of Vivio during the encounter I doubt she would have given Nanoha any time to communicate with Fate during that crucial moment when she was restrained by Jail. Not to mention the internal defense systems of the Cradle made external communications impossible.
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Old 2009-03-12, 17:59   Link #2056
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Actually, removing the Lutecia plot would lead to an underdevelopment of Fate as well. During their various encounters with the other Summoner they spoke about and were driven by the life lessons taught to them by Fate whom was drawing upon her own personal experiences and not wanting for them to grow up with the hardships she had endured.
That's why I said you can develop Fate other ways, just be creative, Caro/Erio/Lutecia weren't necessary for this or the main plot, but you can still use them if you don't want to remove those characters.

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Which would not be quite possible when you have both of them fighting for their own lives at their very best. Given the mental state of Vivio during the encounter I doubt she would have given Nanoha any time to communicate with Fate during that crucial moment when she was restrained by Jail. Not to mention the internal defense systems of the Cradle made external communications impossible.
I think it would have been better to have a fight in open spaces, so no a fight inside the Cradle or underground as I said in my previous post. Nanoha and Fate went through the same route.

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Old 2009-03-12, 18:07   Link #2057
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That's why I said you can develop Fate other ways, just be creative, Caro/Erio/Lutecia weren't necessary for this or the main plot, but you can still use them if you don't want to remove those characters.
I do wonder what your main plot would be then...seeing as they all played an important role.

Although I can already guess...
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Old 2009-03-12, 18:08   Link #2058
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I think it would have been better to have a fight in open spaces, so no a fight inside the Cradle or underground as I said in my previous post. Nanoha and Fate went through the same route.
If you want to give them an advantage, then yes. Open spaces is where they excel at. However, Jail is a villain. He is a crazy, but smart one and knows this. If you want to win you use whatever you have to your advantage. Even more so that he is evil and can be sneaky and underhanded in what he chooses to do. In this case he manages to lure them to enclose areas that is HIS home turf in order to take them out and keep them from ruining his grand plans. Also not having the Vivio/Nanoha final fight inside the Cradle would go against the build up and background given in the series. As Vivio is, in a sense, the key to operate the Cradle having her in a non-secure location outside of the Cradle would mean the Cradle would not be operational and thus against Jail's plan. Plus for designers of the Cradle to make the 'throne' outside rather then deep within for the 'key' to sit would be...well stupid.
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Old 2009-03-12, 18:11   Link #2059
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Here's the dealio. Here's why Nanoha and Fate needed to have their separate scenes in the end. If Fate had been there Nanoha's arc would have been absolutely useless. Nanoha's story in StrikerS is not about making a happy family it's about going from being person-who-looks-after-Vivio to becoming "Mama". The scene is the climax of her character arc and if Fate had been there to support her it would have lost all power, Nanoha wouldn't have learned anything but to rely on Fate for all mothering. When push comes to shove it is Nanoha who is Vivio's mother, not Fate (whether Fate is also a parent is an entirely other fact that has been debated many times (though she definitely does not have the same relationship in StrikerS with Vivio as Nanoha does arcwise) and I am not getting into).

Things wouldn't have worked in a different scenario. If Erio and Caro hadn't existed then Fate wouldn't know how to be a mother. If Fate didn't know how to be a mother she wouldn't be able to act as example/contrast mama for Nanoha and Nanoha would have lost the necessary character development and happy family wouldn't be able to exist. Erio and Caro are needed for Fate to develop into the character she is. Her niece and nephew wouldn't have worked, she needed her own kids in order to gain the knowledge and experience to help Nanoha with Vivio.
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Old 2009-03-12, 18:14   Link #2060
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If you want to give them an advantage, then yes. Open spaces is where they excel at. However, Jail is a villain. He is a crazy, but smart one and knows this. If you want to win you use whatever you have to your advantage. Even more so that he is evil and can be sneaky and underhanded in what he chooses to do. In this case he manages to lure them to enclose areas that is HIS home turf in order to take them out and keep them from ruining his grand plans.
Yes, that's very logic considering the canon scenario and his personality, so to bring the fight out you should change one or the other thing.

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Also not having the Vivio/Nanoha final fight inside the Cradle would go against the build up and background given in the series. As Vivio is, in a sense, the key to operate the Cradle having her in a non-secure location outside of the Cradle would mean the Cradle would not be operational and thus against Jail's plan. Plus for designers of the Cradle to make the 'throne' outside rather then deep within for the 'key' to sit would be...well stupid.
Yes, you should have to change that as well I think... but I'm not going to write the full script of the new series ^^U

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Here's the dealio. Here's why Nanoha and Fate needed to have their separate scenes in the end. If Fate had been there Nanoha's arc would have been absolutely useless. Nanoha's story in StrikerS is not about making a happy family it's about going from being person-who-looks-after-Vivio to becoming "Mama". The scene is the climax of her character arc and if Fate had been there to support her it would have lost all power, Nanoha wouldn't have learned anything but to rely on Fate for all mothering.
You can make it work as well, if not better with the two of them and Vivio, that way both will got the same importance in the scene and the acceptance of Vivio. The motherhood of Nanoha and Fate can be learned through the time goes.

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Things wouldn't have worked in a different scenario. If Erio and Caro hadn't existed then Fate wouldn't know how to be a mother. If Fate didn't know how to be a mother she wouldn't be able to act as example/contrast mama for Nanoha and Nanoha would have lost the necessary character development and happy family wouldn't be able to exist. Erio and Caro are needed for Fate to develop into the character she is. Her niece and nephew wouldn't have worked, she needed her own kids in order to gain the knowledge and experience to help Nanoha with Vivio.
Yes, but there are plenty of ways to develop Fate as a mother previously to Strikers. You can keep using Erio and Caro if you want children without parents, but you don't need to make them so important in Strikers.

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