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Old 2009-10-10, 13:13   Link #2101
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
You made a previous claim and supported it (with bold lettering for emphasis mind you) with Wiki information. And you then called the information recently pulled from a Wiki into question on the basis of it being wiki.

That can be, and is a Double Standard Fallacy. It's a rather minor instance, but I thought I'd point that out before the argument could get shanghai'd.

I'm just letting you know to watch your claims. Sometimes they can bite back if you're not careful. I was watching for it ever since you made the refference to wiki earlier. (I was even tempted to point out that you should have gotten the definition of 'melee' from Dictionary.com, rather than Wikipedia.)

Wiki refferences are rather notorious for ending up with Double Standard Fallacies.
Good point.

Here's the dictionary definition of melee then:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/melee

Key excerpt: a confused hand-to-hand fight or struggle among several people.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:19   Link #2102
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
She gets hit a fair bit, Keroko. Even Scaglietti managed to catch her, and hit her with a shot.
Yes, and those with high armor get their armor pierced. No defense is ultimate. What I meant is that Fate isn't suicidal, she's just good at dodging, and uses mobility over defense.

The wiki is one maintained by fans, however the articles themselves are sourced. The information about the attacks came from the Novel and Megami Magazine, both official sources.

Phalanx Shift being ranked higher... Well, someone has to translate that to be certain. I'm not sure I can trust translation sites for details like these. Power should be one factor though.

As for why I edited out my comment to agree to disagree, well, I thought it was a tad offensive myself. It was basically me saying 'If you're really going to keep argue even in the face of this evidence, then you're hopeless' which, needless to say, is not the most flattering of agreements. I prefer to keep things civil, hence why I edited it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Hhmmm... Signum, Vita, Vivio, Subaru, most of the Numbers IIRC... are all much more melee fighters than magical ranged specialist. Melee certainly doesn't seem like a rare specialization to me.

Heck, of the four young protagonists in training in StrikerS, only Teana is a magical ranged specialist, and her magical blasts are fairly weak in comparison to other magical blasts.
For main characters, no. But the majority of Mid still uses ranged magic. Our main characters are the exception, not the rule.

As for ranged magic users among our main characters... Nanoha, Hayate, Teana, Caro, Lutecia, Agito, Rein, Quattro, Cinque, Otto, Dieci, Wendi, Thoma... even there there's really quite a lot of them.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:25   Link #2103
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@Triple_R
Good enough.

As I already said, I was tempted to point out what you should have done at the time, as the first argument out of most debater's mouths is 'Wikipedia is not accurate!'.

I decided to hold off since it was unlikely the particular article you refferenced would have bias or inaccuracy. I take things on a case by case. But in general, the rule of Wiki is that if you accept them for your arguments, you should accept them from other arguments, or not use them. (Unless you spot a wiki page filled with warnings like [CITATION NEEDED] or other Wikipedia 'questionable article' messages.)

It might be prudent, since I spotted a lot of the most common logical fallacies being fired off rapid-pace earlier... that you familiarize yourself with this so your arguments can be more accurate and objective.

I pointed out in what appears to be a completely ignored post several issues with your dissection of Nanoha's defensive power and the logical flaws they entailed.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:33   Link #2104
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, and those with high armor get their armor pierced. No defense is ultimate. What I meant is that Fate isn't suicidal, she's just good at dodging, and uses mobility over defense.

The wiki is one maintained by fans, however the articles themselves are sourced. The information about the attacks came from the Novel and Megami Magazine, both official sources.

Phalanx Shift being ranked higher... Well, someone has to translate that to be certain. I'm not sure I can trust translation sites for details like these. Power should be one factor though.
Back in the original Nanoha anime, in one of Fate and Nanoha's fights, Nanoha shot a major energy blast at Fate. Fate also shot a major energy blast at Nanoha. The two blasts interconnected mid-blast.

Now, in fairness, I don't recall if this was a Phalanx Shift vs. a Divine Buster, but if it was... Nanoha's blast eventfully knocked back Fate's blast, IIRC.

Do you recall what fight I'm referring to here?


Quote:

As for why I edited out my comment to agree to disagree, well, I thought it was a tad offensive myself. It was basically me saying 'If you're really going to keep argue even in the face of this evidence, then you're hopeless' which, needless to say, is not the most flattering of agreements. I prefer to keep things civil, hence why I edited it out.
Keroko... have you seriously considered, even once in our debates, that maybe; just maybe you're taking the wrong approach on feats vs. appraisals? These rankings are just another kind of appraisal, you know; be they fan-made or otherwise.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:36   Link #2105
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triple r: they both used busters in that scene
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:47   Link #2106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I would point out several things here.


Defense refers to the ability to withstand a hit and not take damage. Like Armor on a tank.
Fate's 'armor' (active defenses) is not very powerful, thus she doesn't rely on it. Especially after Nanoha made it clear in season when she was overpowered by Starlight Breaker Prototype.

Taking a blow as you would reffer to it as Fate taking damage and getting back up is not defense, but a stat that is similar to endurance. (Damage Absorbtion)

Likewise, the ability to parry blows in melee or deflect them is not defense in the sense being used here, but skill.

As for your downplay of nanoha's defense levels, you're equating a cross spectrum, cross timeline series of completely isolated events and applying them to a universal context that does not exist.
Both Keroko and I have done this: why are you focusing strictly on me as such?

In any event, if we're arguing about Fate vs. Nanoha strictly as it pertains to their Striker S selves, then there's very little whatsoever to go on when it comes to comparing Fate's defensive capabilities to Nanoha's.


Quote:
When Vita smashed Nanoha's barrier, she did so with a cartridge powered, rocket boosted hammer attack designed specificly for jack-hammering right through a barrier against a Nanoha who had not upgraded to matching equipment. (She had not leveled up yet one could say.) Note that later on, Vita never broke Nanoha's defenses.
Vita briefly battled with Fate pre-Nanoha/Fate cartridge upgrade as well. How did that fight go?


Quote:

When Nanoha was fighting Uber Vivio in the Cradle, she was severely hampered by a high density AMF field, stressed, exhausted, and holding herself back to buy time for her WAS to located Quattro.
You're exaggerating the situation, imo. Nanoha was stressed, but so was Fate in Fate's battle with Jail Scaglietti. Nanoha did not strike me as downright exhausted.


Quote:
Note that despite the barrier getting busted, Nanoha was not put out of the fight thanks to a combination of her secondary defense (barrier jacket) and some Epic level Endurance on her part. She was under all those handicapping factors, and was still tanking Vivio attacks.
Yes... and when Jail blasted Fate out of the air, Fate wasn't completely taken out of the battle by it either.
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:02   Link #2107
Keroko
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The clash in episode 5 wasn't a Phalanx Shift versus Divine Buster, that was a Thunder Smasher, an A- rank attack, versus a Divine Buster, an A rank attack. Even though it wasn't a full rank stronger, only by a -, Nanoha's Divine Buster was stronger, hence it pushed Fate's Thunder Smasher back.

I should also note that, again, Fate won that fight because she dodged. Launching upwards and making use of the opening it created.

And no, I do not think I am taking a wrong stance. As our debate has shown, feats are subjective. Appraisals of rank are not. That Phalanx Shift is a AAA ranked attack is a canonical fact. That Divine Buster is an A rank attack is a canonical fact. Only with these appraisals do the feats become objective, as we now know which attack is the stronger one, and they show the very opposite of what you claim.
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:20   Link #2108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Both Keroko and I have done this: why are you focusing strictly on me as such?
I've argued with Keroko before, it's a headache. But Keroko is correct in this argument.

Quote:
In any event, if we're arguing about Fate vs. Nanoha strictly as it pertains to their Striker S selves, then there's very little whatsoever to go on when it comes to comparing Fate's defensive capabilities to Nanoha's.
Not my point. My point is you're applying one 'level' of value to factors that scale massively different. You can't do that. You have to observing the factors and context, not simply the events.

Quote:
Vita briefly battled with Fate pre-Nanoha/Fate cartridge upgrade as well. How did that fight go?
Not relevant. Fate wasn't using a barrier to defend against Vita's blows. She was dodging and using staff deflects until Signum stomped her. That goes to skill and speed, not defense.




Quote:
You're exaggerating the situation, imo. Nanoha was stressed, but so was Fate in Fate's battle with Jail Scaglietti. Nanoha did not strike me as downright exhausted.
You're narrowing the context down to direct interpretation of your observations. She was quite exhausted by that time, having smashed her way through the Cradle's AMF filled interior full tilt tilt, blowing up everything that got in her way, having been doing this for upwards of an hour at this point. And she cut loose with a Blaster system divine buster (Essentially a Limit Break) before she even got to Vivio.
She was pushing herself before she even got to that, already bleeding from stress injuries and gritting it off. Exhausted enough that once they all ESCAPED the cradle, after fighting non-stop for three hours... they passed out in the Helicopter on the ride back.

You don't get that tired from firing the 5X starlight breaker alone.


Quote:
Yes... and when Jail blasted Fate out of the air, Fate wasn't completely taken out of the battle by it either.
Yet you fail to recognize the context of the situation. Jail is not a reincarnated Sainkt Kaiser Clone that can suvive exploding helicopters while powered down and asleep, and he's not backed up by the power resserves of a multi-kilometer long super battleship.

It also was not his intention to kill her right on the spot. Vivio, in her Quattro induced madness, had every intent of turning Nanoha into meat paste amid her derranged screams of. 'YOU AREN'T MY MAMA! GIVE BACK MY MAMA!'

One should also point out, that at that instance, Jail had blindsided her with odd-angle attacks, and never went through a barrier like the way Vivio did pounding on Nanoha.


Your context and scale is all inaccurate.

As such: Looking at the way you're structuring your counter arguments, these are all Straw Man arguments I've responded to.
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:33   Link #2109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I've argued with Keroko before, it's a headache. But Keroko is correct in this argument.
Yeah, I was far too stubborn during our last one. I never did apologize for that, did I? Well, my apologies.
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:54   Link #2110
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I don't even REMEMBER what our last argument was about... Just that you got into one of your turtle shell mode funks in the middle of it.

Though, you provide me with a gap to provide a good followup here.


In essence, what you're doing Triple_R... is if I may exaggerate your argument to an extreme level here... claiming that Nanoha's defenses aren't impressive after she fails to protect against a nuclear missile attack, while Fate's defenses are strong after she successfully protects herself against a butterfly tickle.

As I can point out with that extreme example, the flaw is that all attacks are not created equal, and that is the mistake you keep making.
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Old 2009-10-10, 15:09   Link #2111
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I don't even REMEMBER what our last argument was about... Just that you got into one of your turtle shell mode funks in the middle of it.
It was that teleport grenade you created. It put me into 'don't use haxx' mode and led me to making downright ridiculous arguments to try and disprove its possibility, while all I really had to do was say 'I don't like this.'
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Old 2009-10-10, 15:29   Link #2112
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post

And no, I do not think I am taking a wrong stance.
That's not what I asked you, Keroko.

I specifically asked you if you have seriously considered that your approach to feats vs. appraisals is valid or not. I really don't get the sense that you've considered my arguments at all on that particular issue.

Frankly, that bothers me much more than the debate over the defensive capability of Fate vs. Nanoha. It is a very wrong-headed approach to feats vs. appraisals, imo.

AdmiralTigerclaw, it should be noted, is debating feats with me.


Quote:
As our debate has shown, feats are subjective.
Our debate has shown nothing of the sort.


Quote:
Appraisals of rank are not.
Yes they are, Keroko.


Quote:
That Phalanx Shift is a AAA ranked attack is a canonical fact. That Divine Buster is an A rank attack is a canonical fact.
Show trumps tell, every time. This is one of the oldest rules of good storytelling. There are instances longer than my arm of "official" appraisals of characters (not in this franchise, necessarily, but certainly in loads of others) being completely out of sync with what the character actually does. When that happens, we throw out the appraisals that don't match the obviously canon feats, not the canon feats.


Quote:
Only with these appraisals do the feats become objective,
Balderdash.

There are definitive statements that can be said about feats with out any appraisals whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I've argued with Keroko before, it's a headache. But Keroko is correct in this argument.
Barring concrete evidence that Vivio's attack power level significantly trumps Jail Scaglietti's attack power level, that can't be said definitively, sir.


Quote:
Not relevant.
Yes, it is relevant.


Quote:
Fate wasn't using a barrier to defend against Vita's blows. She was dodging and using staff deflects until Signum stomped her.
Bold emphasis mine.

So... Fate's strength/staff durability (pre-cartridge upgrade) can now be compared to Nanoha's shield strength (also pre-cartridge upgrade), since both were tested against Vita's blows. And if Fate's strength/Bardiche durability is collectively on par with Nanoha's shields (both pre-cartridge upgrade), and if Fate sometimes decides to use shields instead of staff deflects, and if Fate isn't a stupid fighter (which nobody here appears to be arguing otherwise)... then what does that say about the strength of Fate's magical shields by extension?


Quote:
That goes to skill and speed, not defense.
Yes, but by comparison, it can say something about defense.


Quote:
You're narrowing the context down to direct interpretation of your observations.
When people are exhausted, there tends to be visible evidence of that based on their facial expressions. This is certainly true of Nanoha, who has shown genuine exhaustion in many of her fights (most notably against Vita in Nanoha A's).


Quote:
She was quite exhausted by that time, having smashed her way through the Cradle's AMF filled interior full tilt tilt, blowing up everything that got in her way, having been doing this for upwards of an hour at this point. And she cut loose with a Blaster system divine buster (Essentially a Limit Break) before she even got to Vivio.
None of this proves that Nanoha is exhausted. It simply proves that she's powerful enough to do all of the above. Nanoha may have exceptional stamina.


Quote:
She was pushing herself before she even got to that, already bleeding from stress injuries and gritting it off.
Bleeding from stress injuries? That's how you took it? I took it to be that an enemy shot simply managed to get through and cut her... given the amount of enemy fire going her way at times, it's certainly not hard to believe that one managed to slip through. That, or a piece of flying shrapnel.


Quote:
Exhausted enough that once they all ESCAPED the cradle, after fighting non-stop for three hours... they passed out in the Helicopter on the ride back.
Well, all that shows is that by the end of everything, Nanoha was exhausted. That doesn't mean that Nanoha went into her fight with Vivio already exhausted.

You're saying that I'm "narrowing the context down to direct interpretation". Well, in my opinion, you're doing the exact same thing, sir.


Quote:

You don't get that tired from firing the 5X starlight breaker alone.
No... but taking some punches from Vivio could help.


Quote:
Yet you fail to recognize the context of the situation.
I'm not failing to do any such thing.


Quote:
Jail is not a reincarnated Sainkt Kaiser Clone that can survive exploding helicopters...
Wait a second... that helicopter was never exploded, IIRC. Nanoha prevented its destruction. It was pure speculation on the part of the Numbers over whether or not a powered down Vivio could survive that.


Quote:
while powered down and asleep, and he's not backed up by the power reserves of a multi-kilometer long super battleship.
And we know that, how? Was there any specifics given on where Jail's power was coming from? I don't recall any.


Quote:

One should also point out, that at that instance, Jail had blindsided her with odd-angle attacks, and never went through a barrier like the way Vivio did pounding on Nanoha.
True. Which is a point in favor of my side of the argument, as we never got to see how Fate's magical shields would hold up against the attack. Perhaps it would have blocked it entirely.


Quote:


Your context and scale is all inaccurate.
No, it's not. If anything, you're the one who's engaging in exaggerations of context and scale, imo.


Quote:

As such: Looking at the way you're structuring your counter arguments, these are all Straw Man arguments I've responded to.
No, they're not.

If anything is a straw man argument, it's this...


Quote:
In essence, what you're doing Triple_R... is if I may exaggerate your argument to an extreme level here... claiming that Nanoha's defenses aren't impressive after she fails to protect against a nuclear missile attack, while Fate's defenses are strong after she successfully protects herself against a butterfly tickle.
That is a gross distortion of my argument, sir.
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Old 2009-10-10, 15:48   Link #2113
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I have considered it, yes. In fact, I even explained to you why I consider my stance to be the most objective one. As I explained to you in the PM you send me, appraisals of ranks through booklets are designed to inform you of the status and power levels. That's the very reason they were created.

Feats, however, are created to look cool. For example, you claimed Nanoha's Divine Buster, an A-rank attack, is more powerful than Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift, a AAA-rank attack, because you think it is more powerful. The sheer fact that you don't know this for certain and merely go by what you think is the right answer makes the source you're using subjective.

Meanwhile, the novel blatantly says "Fate's attack was more powerful." No ifs and buts. It blatantly states the difference in power, with no 'I thinks' about it.

Objective sources of information are sources not muddled by opinions. Your evaluation of Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is an opinion, and therefore subjective.

Your method if arguing is basically saying "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful. Anything that says otherwise is wrong." It is you who is unable to provide any proof to support your claims, and instead merely go by what you yourself think what is right, ignoring any and all sources of information that state the opposite. There is nothing about the season 1 fight that proves Divine Buster is stronger than Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift, and yet you continuously claim it is as if it is a fact. This is not discussing a topic, this presenting your opinion as fact and claiming everyone that does not conform to your opinion is wrong.
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Old 2009-10-10, 16:03   Link #2114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I have considered it, yes.
Thank you for answering my question.


Quote:
As I explained to you in the PM you send me,
Then I'll transfer over many of the points that I just made to you in my reply to that PM.


Quote:
...appraisals of ranks through booklets are designed to inform you of the status and power levels. That's the very reason they were created.
And when Batman said that the Ten-Eyed Man was the "most dangerous man ever", that was also designed to inform the reader of how dangerous the Ten-Eyed Man was. It doesn't make it any more accurate, though, since the Ten-Eyed Man never lived up to his advance billing.

You see, Keroko, by the same token... it could be argued that Fate's Phalanx Shift also did not live up to its ranking.


Quote:
Feats, however, are created to look cool.
Feats are created to look cool and also to demonstrate what the character in question is capable of. They serve the exact same purpose of appraisals... only in a concrete, in-the-canon-story form. That is what makes feats more valuable than appraisals.


Quote:
For example, you claimed Nanoha's Divine Buster, an A-rank attack, is more powerful than Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift, a AAA-rank attack, because you think it is more powerful.
No... I'm claiming that because Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift proved so ineffectual against a binded Nanoha. At the same time, Vita's regular physical attacks were enough to break Nanoha's shields (both of these Nanoha's are pre-cartridge upgrade).

Are you really prepared to think that Vita's regular attacks BIG TIME trump Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift BIG TIME trump Nanoha's Divine Buster?

If so, why was Vita impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster?


Quote:
The sheer fact that you don't know this for certain and merely go by what you think is the right answer makes the source you're using subjective.
My source is the canon anime content, which is as canon and objective as it gets.


Quote:
Meanwhile, the novel blatantly says "Fate's attack was more powerful." No ifs and buts. It blatantly states the difference in power, with no 'I thinks' about it.
And when Batman called the Ten-Eyed Man the most dangerous man ever, there were no ifs and buts about it, or no 'I thinks' about it.


Quote:

Objective sources of information are sources not muddled by opinions. Your evaluation of Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is an opinion, and therefore subjective.
My evaluation is based on canon anime feats. Those canon anime feats are objective feats.


Quote:

Your method if arguing is basically saying "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful."
No, that is not my method of arguing.
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Old 2009-10-10, 16:36   Link #2115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R
And when Batman said that the Ten-Eyed Man was the "most dangerous man ever", that was also designed to inform the reader of how dangerous the Ten-Eyed Man was. It doesn't make it any more accurate, though, since the Ten-Eyed Man never lived up to his advance billing.
Does the information on the attacks count as "advance billing," though? There is a substantial difference between something designed to raise interest in a new instalment of a long-running work, and supplementary material that many fans probably aren't aware of. For that matter, was the material Keroko is referring to released before or after the fight in question?

That aside, there is also the point that "most dangerous man ever" is a much more vague judgment than "attack X is more powerful than attack Y."

Quote:
If so, why was Vita impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster?
Maybe Nanoha's Divine Buster was more powerful by the time of A's as a result of her training. The A's manga shows her getting an improved version of Starlight Breaker, so it could be that something similar happened with Divine Buster. Just a thought.

Quote:
My evaluation is based on canon anime feats. Those canon anime feats are objective feats.
The feats themselves are canonically established and objective, but they most often do not directly tell us the comparative power of two characters. This is where opinion and subjectivity come in. As this discussion has shown, it is possible for different people to have different interpretations of a given set of events.
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Old 2009-10-10, 16:48   Link #2116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Bold emphasis mine.
So... Fate's strength/staff durability (pre-cartridge upgrade) can now be compared to Nanoha's shield strength (also pre-cartridge upgrade), since both were tested against Vita's blows. And if Fate's strength/Bardiche durability is collectively on par with Nanoha's shields (both pre-cartridge upgrade), and if Fate sometimes decides to use shields instead of staff deflects, and if Fate isn't a stupid fighter (which nobody here appears to be arguing otherwise)... then what does that say about the strength of Fate's magical shields by extension?
I actually watched that sequence in question before I commented. The first part you must note is that the staff delfection in question was not a sledgehammer to the middle of the staff blow the way Nanoha had been taking Vita's blows. If you knew anything about the use of weapons, the fact that Fate and Vita were in a shoving match cross-barred with their weapon shafts can't tell you anything about her ability to withstand a sledgehammer overhead, or a rocket jackhammer blow. A deflection, which was used, is by its very nature, a redirect of force. It's a parry, not a block.

The second part you must note is that is the ONLY time she is in contact with Vita were deflections, not blocks or shielding.

When Vita threw the Swallow Flier up and attacked using that. Fate fired her Arc Saber attack and went evasive. While Fate was Dodging, the fliers, Vita tanked the Saber, then Arf attacked with a barrier break on Vita. Who responded with a hammer strike that repelled Arf.
While Vita was distracted, Fate used a delayed dodge move to cause all four Swallow Flier attacks to collide with each other at the last second before pressing a blitz on Vita, who barely dodged with horse speed. Arf then returned to the fray by trying to grab her with a bind that dispersed Horse Speed.

Vita, distracted again, was blitzed. She blocked fate's blow and they got forced into the afore mentioned shoving match. Again, the shafts pushing on each other are no clear indication of true power.

After a brief cut to the bridge bunnies for the tense pause, we cut back to a wide shot showing two exhanges. One obviously a deflection from fate, as she the rather easily followed scyth arcs up and over into its own strike. Vita blocks this and pushes Fate back. Fate is then followed in with a close cemera view showing her to be dropping back.
When Vita goes for the next overhead, Arf snaggs her, and that fight is over. Fate never fights Vita like this again. Signum makes her Dynamic Entry and stomps her.



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Yes, but by comparison, it can say something about defense.
Unfortunately, that's not how defense works.

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When people are exhausted, there tends to be visible evidence of that based on their facial expressions. This is certainly true of Nanoha, who has shown genuine exhaustion in many of her fights (most notably against Vita in Nanoha A's).

Unless of course, they mask their exhaustion. This occures when you have the Badass (Nanoha) fighting the epic battle, and hiding her true fatigue. To prevent their opponent seeing a weak front. We know she's doing this after she favors her hand, Raising Heart asks about it, and she does the whole teeth gritting I mentioned. Which is (since I just double checked), immediately post the use of Blaster One to bust up Deici.

It should be noted that the first fight with Vita in A's, nanoha was not exhausted, she was barely concious from having the ever loving SMEG smashed out of her.

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None of this proves that Nanoha is exhausted. It simply proves that she's powerful enough to do all of the above. Nanoha may have exceptional stamina.
Grasping at straws. Nanoha is still human. Magically powerful, but still human. The use of 'may' is a major indicator that you have no idea here.

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Bleeding from stress injuries? That's how you took it? I took it to be that an enemy shot simply managed to get through and cut her... given the amount of enemy fire going her way at times, it's certainly not hard to believe that one managed to slip through. That, or a piece of flying shrapnel.
Which as I just checked and commented upon, was shown to us after her dramatic powerup on Deici. The use of such focusing in fiction is to point out what the previous event did. It's part of the concept 'show, not tell'. In this case, the show, not tell here is to show us that Nanoha really pushed it going into Blaster One. She's at her limit, exhausted already, but Vivio's still ahead. Time to kick more ass!

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Well, all that shows is that by the end of everything, Nanoha was exhausted. That doesn't mean that Nanoha went into her fight with Vivio already exhausted.
True, but I'm stacking the points here to show you just how much exhaustion she's building up.

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You're saying that I'm "narrowing the context down to direct interpretation". Well, in my opinion, you're doing the exact same thing, sir.
Incorrect. What I'm doing is drawing upon the context of the entire battle and going through the progression to show you what's going on 'between the lines'.


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No... but taking some punches from Vivio could help.
Taking punches from Vivio never helps. *That had to hurt reguardless of defensive power...*


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I'm not failing to do any such thing.
Don't attempt to hide it...
The context of the fight is that Nanoha is in a three hour long pitched battle in the middile of an environment that's completely hostile to her, and then fighting a superpowered angry 'Kaiser Vivio' at the end, while driving herself beyond her limits even before she gets there. Her blaster system is an overdrive. It was activated and used before she made it to the throne room, implying that she was already at her present limit.


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Wait a second... that helicopter was never exploded, IIRC. Nanoha prevented its destruction. It was pure speculation on the part of the Numbers over whether or not a powered down Vivio could survive that.
This is called a Logical Assumption based on gathered evidence. Jail would not have authorized Deici to blow the thing to tiny pieces if he wasn't certain the body of the kaiser would survive the blast in-tact. He even says: If that is the one he's after, she'd be unharmed. Since Vivio IS the one he's after, because, well, she turned into Super-Kaiser Vivio, activated the Cradle... etc. That means that by not too much of a leap of logic, the exploding Helicopter was no threat to her.



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And we know that, how? Was there any specifics given on where Jail's power was coming from? I don't recall any.
He's certainly not powered by a giant relic super battleship. He's nowhere near it.
And if his base had that kind of power, he wouldn't need the Relic Battleship. Connect the dots.


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True. Which is a point in favor of my side of the argument, as we never got to see how Fate's magical shields would hold up against the attack. Perhaps it would have blocked it entirely.
Maybe, Maybe not. The doctor himself is hardly very powerful based on the evidence and context, he had to get the drop on her, and then it was Tre that did most of the fighting once she broke out of his laser-wire-fu trick. It can be noted, that after that escape, the doctor had no offensive tricks left. He blocked with his gauntlet claws, which started breaking, and then got smacked into a wall. Hardly a challenge to Fate at that point. If she had blocked anything he fired with any kind of defense, it wouldn't be evidence of anything more than 'blocking a butterfly'.

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No, it's not. If anything, you're the one's who's engaging in exaggerations of context and scale, imo.
It's not your oppinion that matters here. It's evidence, logic, and reasoning. A little interpretation is okay to keep the fact that this is 7arcs in mind (I won't get into that), but the evidence is against you. The dialogue is against you... the logic you come up with is weak and easily picked apart. (This entire argument took me as long to disassemble as it took to read. Typing my counter-arguments took longer simply because typing takes a bit of time for all this.) You don't have a solid argument that doesn't base off poorly examined context, mis-compared context, or a logical basis that understands how things are being presented.



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No, they're not.
You are claiming that Fate's defense is as strong as Nanoha by presenting the argument that she tanks hits as well as Nanoha... by arguing that her absorbing of hits by weaker foes while nanoha is losing hits or barely tanking hits against far stronger foes.

That is taking the argument, distorting it, and attacking that distorted argument.

That is the DEFINITION of a straw man argument.

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That is a gross distortion of my argument, sir.
That is an extremety to point out what you are doing in your argument. I even said as much.



I could claim that your arguments are inherently flawed because you have a Bias to Fate, which results in a conflict of interest in terms of straight analysis, and playing Fate up more than she is.

However, In doing so, I must disassemble your arguments as well, or I fall under the Circumstantial Ad Hominem Fallacy.

Since I have done just that, I feel I am free to call you on your Bias.

Your arguments are taking your Bias with Fate and our arguments against her defense are offensive in the light of that bias.

Fate being a fragile speedster is not an offensive statement. She is FAR faster than Nanoha or anyone when she applies the speed. Just as Nanoha's ability to tank attacks is FAR better than hers.

It balances out quite nicely.

Personally, I love Fate being the Supersonic speedster with the love for skimpy clothes and sports cars. Especially when I can apply liberal use of Sonic Booms to her actions.
(Why doesn't this forum have a Dr. Evil smily?)


*EDIT: Accidently glossed over a few points in all my typing... went back and filled those empty points in.

EDIT 2: I freakin LOVE Sonic Booms!
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Old 2009-10-10, 17:22   Link #2117
Keroko
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See, Triple, once again you go and claim things without evidence to back them up. "It could be argued that" already makes the very argument that you use a theory. And without any proof to back up this theory, this makes it subjective, and it loses against the objective information. You have no proof that Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift was 'not living up to its rank.' Therefore, unless such proof is found there is no reason to even remotely consider that it did.

Here is what we can objectively gain from the feats in that fight: Fate placed a bind on Nanoha and fired her most powerful attack, which Nanoha blocked. Nanoha, now free from her bind, replies in kind with her regular attack, which Fate barely blocks, and finishes it off with a Starlight Breaker. That is all we can objectively get from the fight. Anything beyond that, saying which attack is stronger, becomes a matter of "which attack do I think looked stronger?" and this becomes a matter of opinion. When something becomes a matter of opinion, it becomes subjective.

And that is where the background powerlevels come in. These things are designed to tell us just that: How strong was each attack? This information is not a matter of opinion, it is a source of information designed to answer our questions, an objective information source.

As for Vita, Vita was never impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster, she was impressed by Nanoha's Nanoha's Divine Buster Extension, fired at her in episode 10, which is an AAA+ ranked attack. Darned right she'd be impressed by that.

Again, your source is not objective if all we have to go on is your opinion. You claim Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift did not live up to its rank. I claim it does. Which of us is right? Without any form of explanation, we could argue this to infinity, because we would be arguing opinions.

That is why your method of arguing is "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful, and anything that says otherwise is wrong." That is exactly what you are saying. Everyone else is wrong, and you are right. Signum and Fate both agree Sonic Form has no armor? They're lying. Phalanx Shift is a AAA ranked attack? It didn't live up. You keep presenting your opinions and subjective views of the situation as if they are facts, and every single time you are asked for proof, you refuse to provide it.
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:07   Link #2118
itanshi1
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@_@ my eyes are spinning

I'm not backlog breaking this crap.

I am making a comment tho. Fate is right handed, Nanoha is left handed. Nanoha wears white, fate wears black. They are compliments. One is long range, the other is close range. One is agile, the other is not.

It is cannonical that they are complimentary. If they can both tank the same exact blows of the same power level (a high one) then they are not complimenting each other and the intention becomes flawed.

I'm all for flaws, but busting this cannonical complimentary setup just to say 'oooooh my fav character is buffer than that one is' so to speak, is missing the point of the series.
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:40   Link #2119
RadiantBeam
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...

So, what about StrikerS, eh guys?
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:42   Link #2120
GlancingReverse
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Uh... Let's see here... Um...

How's life?

We're no better off than we were when I started this post, are we?
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