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Old 2009-10-10, 19:19   Link #2121
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
See, Triple, once again you go and claim things without evidence to back them up. "It could be argued that" already makes the very argument that you use a theory.
That's right. In that particular instant, I'm only presenting an idea to be considered. That's all.

If we disagree... fine. I'm just trying to convey to you where I'm coming from on the issues that we're debating.


Quote:
You have no proof that Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift was 'not living up to its rank.' Therefore, unless such proof is found there is no reason to even remotely consider that it did.
A TripleA attack strikes against an eight-year old girl caught in a bind, and fails to leave so much as a scratch on her.

...Yes, I find that very hard to swallow. If Nanoha's defense is that spectacular, then how was Fate defeating her so much earlier on in the anime?

And, for that matter, if Fate is a "fragile speedster" that Nanoha was typically able to keep up with (and she was; it was flash-step then flash-step then flash-step for both of them), then why did Fate win all of those fights with Nanoha? Why wasn't Nanoha able to take advantage of Fate's "fragile" defense?

Fate dominated her ongoing feud with Nanoha in the early going of the original anime; this is something that I often think that Fate doesn't get enough credit for. The final Nanoha/Fate fight was the only one that Nanoha actually won. I'd score the first two fights as definitive Fate victories, and the other fights (other than the final one) as draws at best for Nanoha.


Quote:
Here is what we can objectively gain from the feats in that fight: Fate placed a bind on Nanoha and fired her most powerful attack, which Nanoha blocked. Nanoha, now free from her bind, replies in kind with her regular attack,
It was her best attack pre-Starlite Breaker. Her regular attack, in my view, would be the basic multi-shot "Shoot!" command that Nanoha sometimes made.


Quote:
which Fate barely blocks, and finishes it off with a Starlight Breaker. That is all we can objectively get from the fight. Anything beyond that, saying which attack is stronger, becomes a matter of "which attack do I think looked stronger?" and this becomes a matter of opinion.
My reasoning has never been based on "which attack do I think looked stronger".


Quote:

And that is where the background powerlevels come in. These things are designed to tell us just that: How strong was each attack? This information is not a matter of opinion, it is a source of information designed to answer our questions, an objective information source.
This information is what the makers of the information source intend to be true. And if it jives with actual canon feats, great, then it's a reliable and true information source.

But if it doesn't jive with actual canon feats, then you disregard the information for the same reason you would disregard performance specs for an item that, when you use it, doesn't actually live up to the specs.


Quote:
As for Vita, Vita was never impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster,
Vita was impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster, Keroko.

Look at her facial expressions when Nanoha first shot a Divine Buster at her. Vita's facial expression clearly betrays either a certain degree of awe, or even downright fear, at the sight of the Divine Buster. Since Vita is fairly fearless, I'm going with the lesser possibility of "a certain degree of awe".


Quote:
she was impressed by Nanoha's Nanoha's Divine Buster Extension, fired at her in episode 10, which is an AAA+ ranked attack. Darned right she'd be impressed by that.
She was impressed by that as well, yes.


Quote:
That is why your method of arguing is "Because I think this attack is more powerful, it is more powerful, and anything that says otherwise is wrong."
No, it is not.

That is not my method of arguing, Keroko!

I have given multiple reasons, totally unrelated to how the attacks looked, for why I hold my position on these attacks. You may not agree with those reasons, but it's simply not accurate to say that they're based on how the attacks looked. Not once did I say "the Divine Buster looks cooler so it must be stronger".


Quote:
Everyone else is wrong, and you are right.
That's not fair to say, Keroko.

I offered you a civil agree to disagree. Why would I do that if I was trying to force my views on other people, as you seem to be implying here? All I'm trying to do here is explain where I'm coming from, and, yes, pick up for a character that I like a lot in Fate.


Quote:
You keep presenting your opinions and subjective views of the situation as if they are facts,
No, I'm simply presenting them as my evaluation on it. I even used the word "evaluation", IIRC.


Quote:
and every single time you are asked for proof, you refuse to provide it.
That's not fair to say either, Keroko. I have provided supportive argumentation for every position that I have taken. Now... good or bad supportive argumentation, it is still an attempt to show where I'm coming from on the issue.

Anyway... show trumps tell. In-canon-on-screen-events are more valuable than off-screen background information. In-canon-events validate the off-screen background information, not the other way around. If the in-canon-events contradict the off-screen background information, then you discard the off-screen background information, imo.

Now... I've said it before on the Haruhi board, and I'm saying it now on the Nanoha board. I'm not doing 1-on-4 debates where I'm the 1.

So... I'm going to try to exit this thread for the forseeable future.

I may choose to rewatch some key Nanoha scenes, and later get back to the arguments of others on this thread later after doing so.

Good day.
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Old 2009-10-10, 19:22   Link #2122
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Can't we all just agree to disagree?
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Old 2009-10-10, 19:42   Link #2123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Hhmmm... Signum, Vita, Vivio, Subaru, most of the Numbers IIRC... are all much more melee fighters than magical ranged specialist. Melee certainly doesn't seem like a rare specialization to me.

Heck, of the four young protagonists in training in StrikerS, only Teana is a magical ranged specialist, and her magical blasts are fairly weak in comparison to other magical blasts.
The main cast represents a very small and very exceptional sample of the larger population. Signum, Vita, and Vivio were essentially ripped from the past, while the cyborgs are a recent development and quite rare themselves. None of your examples even use Midchildan magic, which is in the setting the predominant system.

There are actually two characters who do, but they're both familiars.
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Old 2009-10-10, 19:45   Link #2124
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Not that I care all that much, but Triple R has a point.

Observation shows that x ability is stronger than y ability. Eyewitness (viewer) accounts bear this out.

All There in the Manual claims that y ability is stronger than x ability. This doesn't line up with what the viewer witnessed, and must be disregarded as inaccurate.
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Old 2009-10-10, 19:51   Link #2125
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'What the viewer witnessed' is often subject to interpretation. Depending on comparisons between multiple scenes in such an argument will only widen the range of conclusions that people can reach.

It's not quite as bad here since we can go back and review, but there's a reason why 'eyewitness accounts' are considered worthless.
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Old 2009-10-10, 20:02   Link #2126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
...Yes, I find that very hard to swallow. If Nanoha's defense is that spectacular, then how was Fate defeating her so much earlier on in the anime?

And, for that matter, if Fate is a "fragile speedster" that Nanoha was typically able to keep up with (and she was; it was flash-step then flash-step then flash-step for both of them), then why did Fate win all of those fights with Nanoha? Why wasn't Nanoha able to take advantage of Fate's "fragile" defense?

Fate dominated her ongoing feud with Nanoha in the early going of the original anime; this is something that I often think that Fate doesn't get enough credit for. The final Nanoha/Fate fight was the only one that Nanoha actually won. I'd score the first two fights as definitive Fate victories, and the other fights (other than the final one) as draws at best for Nanoha.
You could chalk that up to Nanoha's inexperience. Fate beat her just because she was better than her and Nanoha couldn't take advantage of Fate's weaknesses anyways.

Quote:
This information is what the makers of the information source intend to be true. And if it jives with actual canon feats, great, then it's a reliable and true information source.

But if it doesn't jive with actual canon feats, then you disregard the information for the same reason you would disregard performance specs for an item that, when you use it, doesn't actually live up to the specs.
If a story needs an external source to make sense, then it has screwed up somewhere. Except for minor details which don't matter, of course.

Quote:
Vita was impressed by Nanoha's Divine Buster, Keroko.

Look at her facial expressions when Nanoha first shot a Divine Buster at her. Vita's facial expression clearly betrays either a certain degree of awe, or even downright fear, at the sight of the Divine Buster. Since Vita is fairly fearless, I'm going with the lesser possibility of "a certain degree of awe".
Yea, i don't think anybody ever scoffed at it.
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Old 2009-10-10, 20:09   Link #2127
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I disagree; Sekai was not a traitor. She just became overwhelmed by her feelings for Makoto.
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Old 2009-10-10, 20:17   Link #2128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
I disagree; Sekai was not a traitor. She just became overwhelmed by her feelings for Makoto.
... what's this got to do with the discussion?
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Old 2009-10-10, 20:19   Link #2129
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Not that I care all that much, but Triple R has a point.

Observation shows that x ability is stronger than y ability. Eyewitness (viewer) accounts bear this out.

All There in the Manual claims that y ability is stronger than x ability. This doesn't line up with what the viewer witnessed, and must be disregarded as inaccurate.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I'm relieved that at least somebody here agrees with me on feats vs. appraisals. After being part of serious, thousand-member-plus fighting boards that always put canon feats over background appraisals, I'm amazed to find so many people here on Anime Suki doing the exact opposite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
'What the viewer witnessed' is often subject to interpretation.
Not always. And background information claims frequently don't hold.


Quote:
Depending on comparisons between multiple scenes in such an argument will only widen the range of conclusions that people can reach.
I don't see this as a bad thing in and of itself. Fans can hold different opinions over all sorts of things (shippings being the most obvious example). By the same extension, I don't see anything wrong with people holding different viewpoints on how strong the characters are as combatants.


Quote:
It's not quite as bad here since we can go back and review, but there's a reason why 'eyewitness accounts' are considered worthless.
No they're not. Eyewitness accounts are used in court all the time. Eyewitness accounts are not worthless at all; it's just usually not enough to convict in and of itself (although, if you have multiple eyewitness accounts corroborating the same story, that may very well be enough to convict; that doesn't apply to the Nanoha/Fate debate on this thread though, I'll admit). They can be limited, but not worthless.

And, in the case of assessments of an anime fight, we the viewer have the benefit of a constant bird's eye view of everything; the fight visuals are designed so that we get the best possible shots of everything. This is why "eyewitness accounts" of anime fights are arguably of even greater value than 'real world' eyewitness accounts.
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Old 2009-10-10, 20:25   Link #2130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post


I don't see this as a bad thing in and of itself. Fans can hold different opinions over all sorts of things (shippings being the most obvious example). By the same extension, I don't see anything wrong with people holding different viewpoints on how strong the characters are as combatants.
My honest opinion is that they are as strong as the writers want them to be for any given fight.

Quote:
No they're not. Eyewitness accounts are used in court all the time. Eyewitness are not worthless at all - it's just usually not enough to convict in and of itself. They can be limited, but not worthless.

And, in the case of assessments of an anime fight, we the viewer have the benefit of a constant bird's eye view of everything; the fight visuals are designed so that we get the best possible shots of everything. This is why "eyewitness accounts" of anime fights are arguably of even greater value than 'real world' eyewitness accounts.
Not to mention they can be rewinded over and over to be scrutinized.

Though I am not really sure how events that happened before StrikerS can tell about how strong in an area they are now. Everyone must have gotten significantly better after all these years.
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Old 2009-10-10, 20:29   Link #2131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
My honest opinion is that they are as strong as the writers want them to be for any given fight.
Good point.


Quote:
Not to mention they can be rewinded over and over to be scrutinized.

Though I am not really sure how events that happened before StrikerS can tell about how strong in an area they are now. Everyone must have gotten significantly better after all these years.
Another good point, I must admit. That narrows the Nanoha/Fate debate massively, as Nanoha and Fate didn't get into a whole lot of fights in StrikerS for us to go by here.

Perhaps there's nothing at all we can say definitively about Fate's magical defense capabilities, as I don't recall Fate using magical shields much at all.
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Old 2009-10-10, 20:33   Link #2132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Perhaps there's nothing at all we can say definitively about Fate's magical defense capabilities, as I don't recall Fate using magical shields much at all.
Well from what I saw from Strikers, I can speculate a little. Her armor changed a lot. She also had her old style in sonic form, but it can be assumed that Impulse Form had better defense since in Sonic Form, since her enemies were scoffing about how fragile Sonic Form was as all power was devoted to offense at that point. But this is just a guess.
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Old 2009-10-10, 21:18   Link #2133
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This eyewitness vs booklets debate has been done to death of the tech thread. Can we leave it be, or at least take it into the tech thread, where this discussion has evolved to actually belong? It's far too specialized for a General Discussion now...

PS: FFTers, see why I'm afraid of posting what I wanted to post? ^^;;;;;;;
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Old 2009-10-10, 22:08   Link #2134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
A TripleA attack strikes against an eight-year old girl caught in a bind, and fails to leave so much as a scratch on her.

...Yes, I find that very hard to swallow. If Nanoha's defense is that spectacular, then how was Fate defeating her so much earlier on in the anime?
Remember the emphasis on feats? You are actually correct in this. But then you have to accept that Nanoha tanked the attack. And since the scene was rather un-evaluable in weapons strength, you have little choice but to rely on the Appraisal of what it was she tanked.

Quote:
And, for that matter, if Fate is a "fragile speedster" that Nanoha was typically able to keep up with (and she was; it was flash-step then flash-step then flash-step for both of them), then why did Fate win all of those fights with Nanoha? Why wasn't Nanoha able to take advantage of Fate's "fragile" defense?[

Fate dominated her ongoing feud with Nanoha in the early going of the original anime; this is something that I often think that Fate doesn't get enough credit for. The final Nanoha/Fate fight was the only one that Nanoha actually won. I'd score the first two fights as definitive Fate victories, and the other fights (other than the final one) as draws at best for Nanoha.
Because it is great credit to truimph down someone more or less comparable in abilities when you have a HUGE training advantage...

In fact, I'll say that Fate clearly won only the second fight (the one in the onsen). For the first fight, for all her inexperience, Nanoha was actually doing pretty well (she wasn't winning, but she's doing pretty well) until she was distracted (error on Nanoha's part for losing awareness of her opponent and Yunno's mistake for distracting her) and Fate took the chance to shoot her, thus giving us an example of how important it is to actually DEFEND rather than rely on your BJ ... a win, but not exactly one I'll take pride in.

You might also notice that the 2nd battle is itself a sign of Fate's weakness in defense (as defined in staying unhurt). She won the fight, but she wasn't the one in better shape after the Beam Tug of War. Nanoha was uninjured except maybe in pride, while Arf was still fretting about Fate's wound (it doesn't seem to be from her mother, since she hadn't returned to mother yet), almost certainly from the last fight.

I was actually debating whether to join in. For one thing, I basically agree with your stance on Feats (however, we called this Observation in my old board) and Appraisals (we lump this into Dialogue or Literature). However, your way of using the Feats stink, enough that Keroko can win.

The feats themselves are objective, and making excuses to deny them for "coolness" is just burying your head in the sand IMO. But our ability to measure them is limited (and sometimes there plain isn't enough data in the visible spectrum). So, when the observation ends, we in fact have a "circle" of acceptable positions - and if we did this right, the exactly correct answer should be somewhere in the circle, but it is unreachable. This is true in real life (and observation follows the same basic principles, though with much cruder tools and resulting accuracy), though of course you can bring more instrumentation and models into at least some real-life situations so your circle would be much smaller.

Where two (or more) interpretations fit inside that circle, it is impermissible (and anti-canon) to take the interpretation that invalidates the Appraisal. Sure, they might be lying, but it is invalid to just ASSUME that to satisfy your gut.

But then, that's not even the biggest problem with your argument. The biggest is that you can't actually come up with cases to buff Fate. At worst you are weakening Nanoha, but that's not the same thing and even that's not going too well because the cases you cite are ambiguous (they have HUGE circles and even overlapping them doesn't help fix down the plot). So they lack the specificity to contradict the Appraisal.
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Old 2009-10-10, 22:18   Link #2135
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
... what's this got to do with the discussion?
Wrong thread, sorry.

Though I guess Makoto/Sekai/Kotonoha does serve as a fairly close parallel to Nanoha/Fate/Yuuno.
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Old 2009-10-10, 23:07   Link #2136
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Wrong thread, sorry.

Though I guess Makoto/Sekai/Kotonoha does serve as a fairly close parallel to Nanoha/Fate/Yuuno.
... not even in the slightest. Nanoha and Fate aren't psychotic yanderes, and Yuuno's the farthest thing you can get from a bastard.
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Old 2009-10-10, 23:09   Link #2137
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Wrong thread, sorry.

Though I guess Makoto/Sekai/Kotonoha does serve as a fairly close parallel to the shippers who debate the relationship of Nanoha/Fate/Yuuno.
Fixed.
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Old 2009-10-10, 23:14   Link #2138
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Fixed.
...

Dezo, have I told you lately that you're brilliant?
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Old 2009-10-11, 01:25   Link #2139
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I recall a mod at another forum calling debates like this 'mental masterbation'

Sigh, the series is not so complicated that it has need for the variance people are seeking. They are what they, primarily, are. There is no need to mix classes of fighters. Whatever they are is an awesome thing for them being so good at what they are. Y'see?

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Old 2009-10-11, 04:21   Link #2140
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No, she simply knows how to not get hit. Like rogues. Don't get me wrong, Nanoha does have superior firepower, but not in this attack. And the numbers (or rather letters, in this case) prove it.

Where am I getting these rankings from?

Right here. I can quote the relevant information bits if you like:

Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift.

使用者:フェイト・テスタロッサ
魔法ランク:AAA
フォトンランサーのバリエーションにして、1期時点でのフェイトの最大攻撃魔法。
30発以上のフォトンスフィアより繰り出される、フォトンランサーの一点集中高速連射。
小説版によると、生成されるフォトンスフィアは38基。 ここから毎秒7発の斉射を4秒継続することで、合計1064発のフォトンランサーを目標に叩きつけることに なる。 メガミマガジンの設定資料での記載もほぼ同様で、継続時間の表記はないが『合計38基のフォトンスフィアか ら秒間7発の高速連射を行う「一斉射撃」』とされている。
フェイトの教育をしていたリニスが、機動力に頼りがちなフェイトの絶対防御対策として考案した 。 リニスがフェイトに手本として見せたときは発射体は20体に満たなかったが、フェイトに課した目標は最低3 0体の生成だった。 当初フェイトは3体までしか生成できず、本人も同時発動・制御が苦手だった。 しかし、そのためにリニスの作ったインテリジェントデバイス・バルディッシュを手にすることによって、この 魔法も完成に至った。(以上小説版)
なのはのスターライトブレイカーほどではないが、この魔法も呪文詠唱にそれなりの時間が掛かるため、使いど ころはかなり難しい部類と言える。 本編中では、なのはをライトニングバインドで拘束して時間を稼いでいた。 また、フェイト自身の魔力を莫大に消費するため、1度使うと後がない状態に追い込まれかねないことも注意点 と思われる。
リニスは発動・命中さえすれば防げる相手はまずいないと言っていた。 小説ではバリアジャケットの原形をかろうじて保っていられるほどの損害をなのはに与えたが、アニメ本編では まったくの無傷に終わった(VFB054)。
因みに「Phalanx Shift」は、古代ギリシャに端を発した攻防一体の密集陣形戦法であるファランクスが由来と思われる。 それに由来するバルカンファランクスと呼ばれる圧倒的な連射速度を持つ機関砲もある。 本編中での発動呪文は以下の通り。

Spoiler for Divine Buster:


Oh, and while translators are funky, I did catch something in Phalanx Shift mentioning Fate relying on mobility. Could anyone translate that?
Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift
User: Fate Tesstarossa
Magic Rank: AAA

A variation of Photon Lancer, which at one point was Fate's most powerful attack. Over 30 shots of 'Photon Lancer' are rapidly fired at high speed at the target. According to the novel, 38 shots are initially formed. The attack continues for 4 seconds, with volleys of 38 shots 7x per second, resulting in a total of 1064 shots striking the target. Megami Magazine reports roughly the same figures, but has no mention of how long the attack continues for.

Fate's training (education) was planned around an emphasis on mobility for defenses and countermeasures (attack). Referring to examples, Linnith told Fate that people were able to generate 20 shots, but set a lower limit of 30 shots for Fate to aim for. Due to poor control, Fate was initially able to only create 3 shots. However, the goal was finally met when Fate tried with Bardich in hand, an intelligent device that Linnith had made for Fate.

Although not as powerful as Nanoha's Starlight Breaker, the time necessary for the incantation of PL:PS, as well the magic necessary to cast, puts it in the same category of spell difficulty. In the original story, the time needed to cast the spell was gained by casting lightning bind on Nanoha. One point to remember is that as the attack consumes a lot of Fate's mana the technique is supposed to be a one-hit-kill technique for use in tight situations.

Linnith said that there are hardly any individuals that would be able to defend against the attack. In the novel, the barrier jacket only just managed to save nanoha from injury. However in the anime, it was blocked without any damage.

Incidentally, 'Phalanx Shift' is a term derived from phalanx, a word from ancient Greece that describes a close formation that can be used for defense and offense. Besides this, it can come from Vulcan phalanx, which describes a rapid firing gun.

Someone else should probably check the translation, but I'm fairly confident that I got it right.

May do the Divine Buster TL another day, but I need to get back to doing proper homework now...
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