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Old 2007-04-06, 11:49   Link #201
LoweGear
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Okay, how about we take them out of the test room and into the outdoors, that would solve the problem of having to worry about damaging property, right?

(Edit for grammar error )

And since we can't use that scale, then use your biasiness and personal judgment to guess who would win =)
Unfortunately, there is still the problem of WHERE to have them duke it out, without worry of harming innocent continents and planets
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Old 2007-04-06, 11:50   Link #202
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Woden View Post
Yet then we have no basis for our assumptions, having only seen two attacks from Hayate and with only OP attacks after the ten year jump. Even then, we only have those for Fate and Nanoha.
It is at this point, where I noticed your signature...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear
Unfortunately, there is still the problem of WHERE to have them duke it out, without worry of harming innocent continents and planets
I'm sure there's plenty of lifeless planets out there... if not, they could just head out to that place where Nanoha first used the Divine Buster extension... That looks like a nice spot...
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Old 2007-04-06, 11:53   Link #203
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Originally Posted by Woden View Post
We don't really know what happened in the post-A's clash. All we can really assume is that if you toss the TSAB mages against the Wolkenritter and Hayate, you will end up with Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate laughing together with everyone else in jumbled mess around them.

The post-A's clash doesn't support either side. Also, we can't really assume what armaments were being wielded there. We have nothing at this time that says that Reinforce Zwei didn't exist, merely that she was not shown. There are too many unknowns to make any decision based on that fight.
Reinforce-Zwei wasn't "made" yet during the timeline of the A's manga. Simply put, she didn't exist then. Reinforce-Zwei(R-Zwei) was only first shown in the first timeskip (exactly when she was created is not yet known).

Additionally, it is pretty easy to know whether Hayate has merged with R-Zwei. Her hair colour will change from brown to white (reference from the A's to StrikerS manga). This was already shown in the A's series. When Hayate was fused with Reinforce I, she was white-haired. When she transformed during the timeskip though, she was brown-haired (she only summoned R-Zwei, not fused with her).

During that clash, everybody but the trio was already more or less knocked out (see the preceding pages). The trio were already the final ones standing, and as Fate and Nanoha were readying their combination attack, Hayate countered with her own spell (whilst still brown-haired! So no R-Zwei was involved here).

In conclusion, Hayate can at least match Fate & Nanoha combined in terms of power. How she fares though... with R-Zwei fusion, is still left to speculation.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-04-06, 11:54   Link #204
Woden
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
It is at this point, where I noticed your signature...
Wait, people notice it when I seem to be doing well in an argument for once but not when I'm being massacred by people with facts? I made sure that it still gave people a chance to be wrong, it just doesn't seem to happen too often these days.
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Old 2007-04-06, 11:59   Link #205
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Woden View Post
Wait, people notice it when I seem to be doing well in an argument for once but not when I'm being massacred by people with facts? I made sure that it still gave people a chance to be wrong, it just doesn't seem to happen too often these days.

I do agree that we can't judge on who would win (yet).

Then again, I didn't have any intention other than to see some interesting ideas from other people. (And for giggles) So you might be taking it too seriously...

Also, to no one in particular, remember that it is a 'team' battle, that means just because Nanoha, Fate and Hayate carry the biggest guns, doesn't mean the rest of them are useless...
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:00   Link #206
Woden
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Reinforce-Zwei wasn't "made" yet during the timeline of the A's manga. Simply put, she didn't exist then. Reinforce-Zwei(R-Zwei) was only first shown in the first timeskip (exactly when she was created is not yet known).

Additionally, it is pretty easy to know whether Hayate has merged with R-Zwei. Her hair colour will change from brown to white (reference from the A's to StrikerS manga). This was already shown in the A's series. When Hayate was fused with Reinforce I, she was white-haired. When she transformed during the timeskip though, she was brown-haired (she only summoned R-Zwei, not fused with her).

During that clash, everybody but the trio was already more or less knocked out (see the preceding pages). The trio were already the final ones standing, and as Fate and Nanoha were readying their combination attack, Hayate countered with her own spell (whilst still brown-haired! So no R-Zwei was involved here).

In conclusion, Hayate can at least match Fate & Nanoha combined in terms of power. How she fares though... with R-Zwei fusion, is still left to speculation.

Cheers.
I never said that Reinforce Zwei was used in that match. Also, if you are going to claim that scene (which I admit I thought work at bit differently) as evidence you must admit that that was one attack. We also don't know how many people participated in that attack. To me, it would appear that Hayate came out worse of that attack. It is also still, one attack. That scene is far from conclusive.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Then again, I didn't have any intention other than to see some interesting ideas from other people. (And for giggles) So you might be taking it too seriously...
I take everything too seriously.
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:05   Link #207
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Originally Posted by Woden View Post
I never said that Reinforce Zwei was used in that match. Also, if you are going to claim that scene (which I admit I thought work at bit differently) as evidence you must admit that that was one attack. We also don't know how many people participated in that attack. To me, it would appear that Hayate came out worse of that attack. It is also still, one attack. That scene is far from conclusive.
I guess the only way to settle this decisively is to demand for a 1v1 match between Hayate an Nanoha in the anime.

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I take everything too seriously.
Oh believe me when I say this. Compared to some other members, you are a relaxed Jamaican.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:07   Link #208
Chaos2Frozen
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YYYeahh, figures as much


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
I guess the only way to settle this decisively is to demand for a 1v1 match between Hayate an Nanoha in the anime.
Bah! I say go for broke!

8-man team battle royal! What could possibly go wrong?
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:10   Link #209
Woden
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We'd need probably need several duels between Nanoha and ANYONE to get a true idea of who is stronger. Predictions would be that in a series of three (not best of), Nanoha loses by one. In a series of four, a tie. In a series of five, it's anyone's game.
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:10   Link #210
Skane
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
~ Bah! I say go for broke!

8-man team battle royal! What could possibly go wrong?
Other than the fact that we still won't have a definite answer on who is the better mage between Hayate and Nanoha?

Natch.
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:12   Link #211
Woden
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I'd be more concerned about the destruction of the universe, myself...
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:13   Link #212
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woden View Post
We'd need probably need several duels between Nanoha and ANYONE to get a true idea of who is stronger. Predictions would be that in a series of three (not best of), Nanoha loses by one. In a series of four, a tie. In a series of five, it's anyone's game.

Thats what the official mage ranking is for, to give an idea about the power level of the characters.

Of course, there are several factors other than skill and magic potential, but those rankings are a general total.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane
Other than the fact that we still won't have a definite answer on who is the better mage between Hayate and Nanoha?
It'll all work out somehow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woden
I'd be more concerned about the destruction of the universe, myself...
I'm sure they have learnt to restrain themselves...

...
...
...

Ahh~ who am I kidding. Still, I wouldn't miss it for anything
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:18   Link #213
Woden
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Thats what the official mage ranking is for, to give an idea about the power level of the characters.

Of course, there are several factors other than skill and magic potential, but those rankings are a general total.
This again, huh? Assuming that the test model in the A's manga is still in use, that only gives us ONE event. I've already made my attacks against the mage ranking system, you can view them in full about a page back.

As the TSAB currently consists almost exclusively of mages using magic based off of Mid-type magic, the test would not take into account that Hayate uses a different form of magic. This makes the test much less reliable, and cannot be used properly for the purposes of this comparison. Taking into account that those who use ancient Velka-type magic actually gain an exception against something, those tests are currently useless when it comes to comparing Hayate and Nanoha.
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:25   Link #214
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Woden View Post

It is also quite likely that the TSAB tests are designed for the kinds of magic used by Nanoha and Fate. If this is correct, it would not be designed to handle ancient velka-type magic. Given the little we know about ancient velka, we can tell it works differently. The test isn't designed with the idea of one of the three ancient velka users in existence to be taking it, and as such it would be easier to take. We can't decide who would win in a fight based on that scale until more details come out.
This?

That test model for A's for Fate is for a AAA rank mage, and as we could tell from the 1st episode of StrikerS, different ranks have different test.

I don't usually like to use this card, but the information of the ranks were given to us from the writers, which probably means that THIS is what they decide the power level of the character should be.

Yes, I see your point, but as lazy and easy as it sounds, just take their word for it.
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:26   Link #215
Aaron008R
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Then who're you guys betting on to win on a one at a time match against everyone? My money is on Chrono, or Hayate. I'm using my biasness and personal judgement.
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Old 2007-04-06, 12:30   Link #216
Woden
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
This?

That test model for A's for Fate is for a AAA rank mage, and as we could tell from the 1st episode of StrikerS, different ranks have different test.

I don't usually like to use this card, but the information of the ranks were given to us from the writers, which probably means that THIS is what they decide the power level of the character should be.

Yes, I see your point, but as lazy and easy as it sounds, just take their word for it.
Sorry, I don't play the game that way. While it would be nice and easy to just say "so it was, so it shall be", the writers themselves provide too many circumstances for me to just give it up there.

That, and I just like to argue too much.
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Old 2007-04-06, 13:23   Link #217
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Aaron008R View Post
Then who're you guys betting on to win on a one at a time match against everyone? My money is on Chrono, or Hayate. I'm using my biasness and personal judgement.
Chrono for his wits, and Hayate for her sheer firepower ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woden
Sorry, I don't play the game that way. While it would be nice and easy to just say "so it was, so it shall be", the writers themselves provide too many circumstances for me to just give it up there.

That, and I just like to argue too much.
Okay, then lets see the facts.

The rank was given 10 years after Hayate joined the TSAB. During that time, in least the first 6 years, they have met Acous and Carim, who both also use the same type of magic.

From there, time jumps ahead for 4 years. Within that 4 years I can assume that TSAB would have worked with the three users on multiple occasions.

All in all, don't you think that 10 years would have given them more than enough time to research about Velka magic? So much so that it's possible for them to come up with suitable tests for Velka type users, new AND old?

Edit: Brb after 6+ hours...Need to sleep...
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Old 2007-04-06, 13:52   Link #218
Woden
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Okay, then lets see the facts.

The rank was given 10 years after Hayate joined the TSAB. During that time, in least the first 6 years, they have met Acous and Carim, who both also use the same type of magic.

From there, time jumps ahead for 4 years. Within that 4 years I can assume that TSAB would have worked with the three users on multiple occasions.

All in all, don't you think that 10 years would have given them more than enough time to research about Velka magic? So much so that it's possible for them to come up with suitable tests for Velka type users, new AND old?

Edit: Brb after 6+ hours...Need to sleep...
Except that it's a grand total of three users against who knows how many. Tests have been adapted for the modern Velka-type, but that's just a Mid-type imitation if other posts I've read are correct. You don't change a system for a grand total of three people. If you notice, the tests aren't separated by magic type. During the A's to StrikerS part of the manga, it is clearly stated that the only known remaining ancient Velka-type users are Hayate, Acous, and Carim. They aren't going to take the massive amount of time required to overhaul an education system for sake of three people. Again, we don't know what is going on with the "exemption" that rare ability users get. If anything, that's probably about all that's been done. The TSAB is undermanned, they're more concerned with getting enough people first.

As far as the TSAB seems to be concerned, ancient Velka is pretty much dead. Tests administered by massive administrations are not tailored to the individual, they are standardized.


EDIT: The story section is open. Does it say anything new?
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Last edited by Woden; 2007-04-06 at 14:17.
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Old 2007-04-06, 16:03   Link #219
Kikaifan
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They can spare four of their best officers to oversee two students taking the B-rank test. They are anything but an impersonal monolithic bureaucracy.

Personally I'm inclined to take the rankings at face value, and believe that in a nice open arena that favored no-one's style Hayate would defeat any other known (well, ranked) character. Of course, circumstance changes everything... a sniper duel with Nanoha or a cage match with Signum would be tough no matter how high your rank I imagine.
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Old 2007-04-06, 16:11   Link #220
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All of whom have vested interests. Having four officers watch a fairly short test is not nearly as much of a hindrance as modifying a testing system for three people. They have modern Velka magic, why should they adapt their systems for the pretty much extinct ancient type?

I'm just getting tired of Hayate being labeled the Deus Ex Machina after one episode. There are so many possible reasons that things could be the way they are, I feel we are getting WAAAY ahead of ourselves. Hayate is not the original Reinforce yet. Let's not start acting like she is. Could Hayate beat Nanoha in a fight? Probably. Could Nanoha beat Hayate in a fight? Probably. After watching some of the fights I've seen in Nanoha, I'm inclined to believe that ranking means very little over all.
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Last edited by Woden; 2007-04-06 at 16:59.
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