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Old 2009-10-14, 04:41   Link #2181
Keroko
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I'll jump into the hornets nest and point out that the statistically measured range would say that Vita was surprised at a shot fired at her from... what was it again, 100 meters? While Belka magic can maintain combat advantage for up to 200 meters. Mid users don't get ranged advantages until ranges beyond 200 meters.

One more point as to why Vita's surprise doesn't make sense if we take the scene literally.
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Old 2009-10-14, 05:59   Link #2182
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'll jump into the hornets nest and point out that the statistically measured range would say that Vita was surprised at a shot fired at her from... what was it again, 100 meters? While Belka magic can maintain combat advantage for up to 200 meters. Mid users don't get ranged advantages until ranges beyond 200 meters.

One more point as to why Vita's surprise doesn't make sense if we take the scene literally.
For someone whose advantage is over 200m, Nanoha sure didn't make a whole lot of effort to keep things that way. It seems like a great deal of fighting occurred PD.

All Hayate actually said was that 200m is a range where both sides would find it difficult to win against the other in one strike (一撃必勝). I suppose it is easy to just stretch it and assume that it means where both sides are even, but considering where most of the fighting seemed to have taken place, I suggest it is simply its literal meaning.

In a fight between a Belkan and a Mid, a Belkan tries to get close and slam down the Mid. The Mid tries to shoot down the Belkan. Of course, to prepare a big enough blast to take down, or even disrupt the charge of an equal Belkan takes time. In fact, they do just that in the manga.

So, say the range is 100m. As soon as the fight starts, the Belkan charges. The Mid tries to fire but doesn't get enough time to prepare. The Belkan bats away any weak hasty defensive shots without disrupting her momentum, finishes closing and starts slicing. The Mid is pushed onto the defensive if he survives the first strike.

Now, let's say the range is 300m. The Mid now has ample chance to charge his weapon. Let's say his RMAX is really only 70m and he finishes a full preparation when the Belkan is at 120. That's no big deal and he can hold it or even possibly close himself. Or he can deliberately slow his preparation to give Belkie hope, and as he crosses 70m Mid attacks and gains the edge.

Presumably, 200m is the ideal compromise. The Mid has a chance to partially prepare, but not fully, so the Belkan's momentum is disrupted. After that it devolves into a close range fight with hasty attacks on both sides that are unlikely to quickly gain decisive results.

In short, the statement is just about useless for discussing weapons range.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-10-14 at 06:48. Reason: Confirmed
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Old 2009-10-14, 07:49   Link #2183
Keroko
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Yeah, see, but I'm not using it to discuss weapon range. I'm using it to discuss combat range.

Regardless, the main point still stands. Measuring the pixels on the screen doesn't work.
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Old 2009-10-14, 17:53   Link #2184
Tabasco
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Agree, I take it as sort of like starship battles that based on dialogue have thousands of miles of separation between the combatants, but on screen it looks like if somebody mistimed a helm order there would be a collision.

What you see is not necessarily what you get.
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Old 2009-10-14, 18:45   Link #2185
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yeah, see, but I'm not using it to discuss weapon range. I'm using it to discuss combat range.

Regardless, the main point still stands. Measuring the pixels on the screen doesn't work.
Effective Weapon range or combat range, the manga shows that 200m doesn't hold except as a starting range (as in "pre-combat" or "approach to combat" range), which BOTH sides want closed before a first strike is actually fired. The Belkie wants zero, Middie wants something a bit more but clearly less than 200. Unless you want to claim that those two are not exercising Belkie and Middie tactics correctly despite their promise to use the first 20 minutes for just that before trying to kill each other for real for the last 4.

Amazingly, this is relatively consistent with variants obtained by ... measuring pixels on the screen. Hmm, am I supposed to take this as a hit?
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Old 2009-10-15, 12:42   Link #2186
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A Midchildian gains advantage at 200+ meters, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of you!

However, maximum range for a Belkan is 200 meters, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of me!

Although, because the Wolkenritter comes from the Book of Darkness, as everyone knows, and because the book of darkness created Belkan Knights, and Belkan Knights are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of you.

And you must have suspected I would have known the Belkan Knights origin, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of me!

We're talking about Nanoha, who is the heroine and exceptionally strong, so you could have been just backing her, hoping on her strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of you.

There is six seconds between firing and hit, which means you must have timed it, and in timing learned that Vita could have dodged it, so I can clearly not choose the magical girl in front of me!

You see, I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my great Buster!
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Old 2009-10-15, 13:25   Link #2187
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@Kaijo I don't know if reading arkhangelsk post would help because i have him on ignore... but HUH? WHAT?
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Old 2009-10-15, 13:34   Link #2188
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I thought I'd interject a bit of humor; I thought everyone would be aware of The Princess Bride. Great, hilarious movie. Note that it means I'm primarily making fun of myself (if you're familiar with the scene).
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Old 2009-10-15, 13:42   Link #2189
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He's parodying Vizzini from The Princess Bride. That is, the guy who overthinks everything by about a million times when there's just no clear answer - and the question he's tackling is a false dichotomy anyway.

Oh, I thought you were making fun of the argument.
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Last edited by Kikaifan; 2009-10-15 at 13:43. Reason: beat me to it.
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Old 2009-10-15, 13:51   Link #2190
prescience
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That was brilliant....
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Old 2009-10-15, 22:03   Link #2191
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Kajiro, you're brilliant.
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Old 2009-10-15, 22:31   Link #2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I thought I'd interject a bit of humor; I thought everyone would be aware of The Princess Bride. Great, hilarious movie. Note that it means I'm primarily making fun of myself (if you're familiar with the scene).
The Princess Bride was an awesome movie... but it's over 20 years old. Not everybody is going to know about it as such.
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Old 2009-10-15, 22:38   Link #2193
Rising Dragon
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I certainly didn't. =X
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Old 2009-10-15, 22:39   Link #2194
itanshi1
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I knew about it awesome movie, highly recommended!

oh yeah, question, who is keeping track of the points made, what the points qualify for, and what conclusions are made by the points? Otherwise it's just mental masturbation again with no end in sight. :P
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Old 2009-10-15, 22:45   Link #2195
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Welcome to the way we work here. You just take mental notes of which to take note of.
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Old 2009-10-15, 22:46   Link #2196
itanshi1
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but we should write these notes down so we can address dead horse with a eh grave :/
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Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.
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Old 2009-10-15, 22:57   Link #2197
Rising Dragon
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Is there even a dead horse left? Because I think it may have been beaten into glue by now.
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Old 2009-10-15, 23:29   Link #2198
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Ah good! Just as I was looking for some to put my new batch of Broadsides together!

*scoots off with equine supaglu*
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Old 2009-10-15, 23:29   Link #2199
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Old 2009-10-16, 13:58   Link #2200
Nanya01
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But I used all the glue to make my giant robot.
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