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Old 2010-02-20, 15:09   Link #2281
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
But that equipment doesn't tell you if the person on the other side of the line is next door or several dimensions away. As I recall, there were no other clues in the scene itself to provide that information.
I don't know, as I was reading the card info of their imprisonment, it was kinda implying that the imprisoned Numbers and Jail were on different orbital prisons.

In fact, the only numbers that are close together in any way appears to Uno, and Sette who happened to be imprisoned in the same place as Jail.

Quattro and Tre are orbiting different planets.

Also Ginga herself opened the communication channels despite the risks associated with it so that all of them could be questioned in one place. I think that implies that she wants the Numbers and Jail far away from each other as possible physically.
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Old 2010-02-20, 20:36   Link #2282
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Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
I don't know, as I was reading the card info of their imprisonment, it was kinda implying that the imprisoned Numbers and Jail were on different orbital prisons.

In fact, the only numbers that are close together in any way appears to Uno, and Sette who happened to be imprisoned in the same place as Jail.

Quattro and Tre are orbiting different planets.
Actually no, they are not in same prison as Jail by cards - as ones i copied from net go, and actually Tre and Quattro "on" the same planet, just...:

Uninhabited world 9: Orbital prison "Gruen": Jail
Uninhabited world 17: Orbital prison "Lubsoulm": Uno, Sette
Uninhabited world 6: Orbital prison "Kiliek": Tre
Uninhabited world 6: Orbital prison "Gelda": Quattro

So - Jail different planet, Uno and Sette - same planet and prison with each other, Tre and Quattro - same planet but different prisons.
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Old 2010-02-21, 23:07   Link #2283
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You know, after watchign that anime, does anyone else think that Subaru would have fit much better as a boy character? She looks like one in the majority of scenes in my opinion, and I actually thougth she was one until a few episodes in. Honestly, you get rid of the bulges and buy her a longer shirt (although Sothe from Fire emblem even proves that's not necessary :P) and she suddenly becomes a boy. I could see her as a boy and still wearing her ribbon and stuff too.
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Old 2010-02-21, 23:56   Link #2284
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Originally Posted by tehnikhil View Post
You know, after watchign that anime, does anyone else think that Subaru would have fit much better as a boy character?
Uhm... no. Subaru is Subaru and Teana wouldn't be the same without her.

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She looks like one in the majority of scenes in my opinion, and I actually thougth she was one until a few episodes in.
If you follow from the beginning, it should be obvious that Subaru is the little girl that Nanoha rescues from the airport fire.

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Honestly, you get rid of the bulges...
I don't see "bulges," I see yummy girly curves.

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Old 2010-02-22, 01:35   Link #2285
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I was quite happy with a girl possessed by a shounen manga character. It was a nice break. Besides, this show focuses just as much on cute and huggable as it does on wall-breaking action, and I get the feeling male Subaru might have made StrikerS into something resembling Gurren. Girl Subaru was a nice call back to original 'befriending via firepower', could still pull off the emotional scene in episode 17 ("GIVE HER BACK!"), and had some touching moments with Riot 6 that you can't really get from teenage guys.

Note: Erio did very well at being a male character that was still cute and huggable, particularly whenever Caro is involved. Seriously, Erio and Caro are moe incarnate.
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Old 2010-02-22, 13:40   Link #2286
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I'm not surprised some think that way. Subaru is, after all, a tomboy character.
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Old 2010-02-22, 13:44   Link #2287
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From that pic alone, and if I wasn't familiar with the series, I'd actually not be sure. It's a trap... Now where is Nya~n...
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Old 2010-02-22, 14:32   Link #2288
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From that pic alone, and if I wasn't familiar with the series, I'd actually not be sure.
Ehh? That slender waist and full curve around her hips, plus the shading on her chest indicating a bust, and you don't see a female figure.

Maybe I haven't seen enough traps, thank goodness. A male would have to have a seriously exaggerated "figure" to look like Subaru does there. But, whatever... everyone has their own sense of perception. I never thought for a minute that she was a guy. Tomboy, sure, but she was obviously female to me from the beginning.
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Old 2010-02-22, 14:33   Link #2289
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After the traps I've seen, this is timid.

That's being "way out there" though. The possibilities exist, but I wasn't being entirely serious. With a bit of info, one knows it's a female.
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Old 2010-02-22, 19:55   Link #2290
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Ehh, Subaru doesn't even begin to qualify as a trap. Now Otto, there's a different story. Reverse traps are perhaps the only thing surpassing traps in awesome.

Of course, I can't help but recall our debates when Nove first appeared with only a few parts of her coat and head on the screen. Her first full appearance ended that debate quite rapidly though.
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Old 2010-02-24, 09:40   Link #2291
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Old 2010-03-02, 21:04   Link #2292
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Originally Posted by tehnikhil View Post
You know, after watchign that anime, does anyone else think that Subaru would have fit much better as a boy character? She looks like one in the majority of scenes in my opinion, and I actually thougth she was one until a few episodes in. Honestly, you get rid of the bulges and buy her a longer shirt (although Sothe from Fire emblem even proves that's not necessary :P) and she suddenly becomes a boy. I could see her as a boy and still wearing her ribbon and stuff too.
Well, She is quite hot blooded. But then again, it's probably for the better since male characters in this series often become put off to the sidelines, and of course do not get any detailed transformations. Hence, the VIP status of Erio.
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Old 2010-03-08, 03:58   Link #2293
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But as I said, if you feel the wikia is just guessing, then delete things and give your reasoning. Because a lot of that information was taken from sources like Japanese magazines and such, and thus can't really be put up as a linked source.
They can still be sourced, referencing to the magazine and number in question. In fact, sourcing is quite essential in any decent wiki community.

My lack of Japanese prevents me from editing the Japanese wiki though.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
This is the best we've got at the moment. You're welcome to ignore it, but I feel it fills in a LOT of gaps and makes sense in the overall scheme of things. I will bet that Vivid ultimately will show that, too, because it's already showed some things that were in the wikia before Vivid confirmed it. Occam's Razor means a lot of things do make sense, too.
That's not the point, the Q&A thread is specifically created for pure facts, and if pure facts can't be given the answer should be either 'we don't know' or 'we can't confirm or deny that' or something along those lines and let the one asking the question form their own opinion.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But you're also faced with the prospect that not everything is going to line up nicely. Case in point: Schach says Vivio's DNA comes from 300 years ago. Einhart says Olive lived 100 years ago. Figure that out, heh.
Retcons are bound to happen with new media. That aside, I thought the term used was hundreds as in, plural.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Edit: Gonna add this bit from a google translate of the Japanese wiki:

Prehistoric - during war - Invaded neighboring countries as well as using otherworldly technology, superior weapons development, expand their territory.
Its technology is the technology leakage was from Al Hazard.

Mid-war period (about 1000 years ago of this story):
Significant advances in artificial life research, a number of "king" of their own to strengthen our body, destined to map it to posterity.

The war (a few hundred years ago of this story) :
Disappear by the end of the war a substantial ancient Belka Belka, Marek Belka land Menu land and who will even after hundreds of years due to pollution. Shall be confirmed by a runaway or not the imposition of any weapons of mass.
Other countries seeking to come back and won The King Seong houses scattered around the world held by a cradle, Belka uniform measure. (Unification War King Seong)
Cradle is lost during the war, King Seong lose the house.
Country surviving occupant had ruled the world, to stop claiming to be orthodox Belka.
During this time, almost to extinction and armed ancient Belka-style magic.

Current:
King Seong and his family and faith for an end to the war, King Seong church is established.
Organization established under the slogan of peace and peace-dimensional interaction with the world of weapons of mass disconnection Middochiruda dangerous, after which time and space Administration.
King Seong church organizations lent strength to the establishment of peace is part of Middochiruda "Belka autonomous" to secure the country as a.

It's kind of hard to make things out, but one thing is clear: The reunification war was a few hundred years ago, and the cradle was lost during this time, as well as the fall of the Saint Kaisers. The TSAB was founded only 150 years ago, so the war ended long before the founding of the TSAB. This falls in line with what Shach said about Vivio's DNA being from 300 years ago.
Ahh, that's from the SSX booklet, JINNSK put up a slightly better translation of that:

"History of ancient Belka~From the prehistory to the age of war
A long time ago,Belka that was born as one of the world which floated in the sea of the dimensions made the fight at each countries interval intensify by the superior weaponeering technology.Belka countries performed aggression to not only own nations but also another world, and they enlarged their territory.
An alliance,an agreement,hostility.The figure of the invasion always changed by power balance between the world and the constant war passed for a long time and continued.In addition, about the superior weaponeering technology of Belka,it is said that there was a technology outflow from the world "Al hazard" that was called the volost in eternity of the dimension world.

Kings of Belka
After the war of Belka passed for a long time,the war came to a deadlock and the weaponeering was promoted more intensely.
Before about 1000 years,the study of the artificial living entity accomplished big evolution as of middle part for the war period,kings reinforced own body and they forced it on their descendant.
The King of ガレア(Garea?) got ability to produce the nuclei of the corpse weapon endlessly in his body.The Sankt Kaiser made himself the key of ultimate weapon and the user of it.
Other Many King also got excessive ability and were proud as a symbol of the power.
It was the insane era that the technology to demand human's body, life, and linker core for a purpose to get power evolved.

End of the war
Because the ground of Ancient Belka became extinct virtually, the war was over.
The people of Belka were exterminated suddenly,the ground of Belka is still the land where anyone cannot live in by pollution.It is considered that some kind of mass weapons were used or caused an accident.However, any certain evidence is not yet discovered.After ground of Belka was lost,some factions were scattered to the other world and were going to plan a comeback.However, the families of Sankt Kaiser brought other countries under control and planned Belka unification.This war is called "Sankt Kaiser unification War" in particular.And the cradle disappeared during the wartime,they stopped declaring that they were blood relatives of Belka.In addition, the tradition and the armament of the ancient Belka magic almost became extinct in this time, too.
Thus, ancient Belka war terminated, and it is told as "war without the winner".

Then,Modern Belka
The history of the war of Belka and the many technology that were developed......especially,mass weapon and the technology named as "a lost logia" had a great influence on the later dimension world.
By the achievement that ended war,the family of Sankt Kaiser was praised and established Saint church.
From these days,Midchilda extended power by development of the magic technology.At last they established an organization for a purpose to break dangerous mass weapon and interchange between the dimension world.This organization became the TSAB later.
Then,The Saint church which made an effort for the establishment of the peaceful organization got own country as Belka autonomous district in a part of Midchilda.
They have maintained the lost history of Ancient Belka and handed down to the present day."


That said, I still don't see how this confirms your theory about Olivie sacrificing herself to destroy the Cradle. Mind, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that at this point it's all speculation.
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Old 2010-03-08, 10:36   Link #2294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
They can still be sourced, referencing to the magazine and number in question. In fact, sourcing is quite essential in any decent wiki community.

My lack of Japanese prevents me from editing the Japanese wiki though.
I can't edit the Japanese wiki, either, and a lot of times things like that bunch from the SSX booklet aren't sourced in the Japanese wiki, either. But it's there, without a source listed, so it comes from somewhere. The Nanoha wikia has been edited to slowly add that information because the Japanese take it as close enough to fact.

I admit it's difficult to really believe "for sure" some of the information, but it's the best we have right now.

Quote:
That's not the point, the Q&A thread is specifically created for pure facts, and if pure facts can't be given the answer should be either 'we don't know' or 'we can't confirm or deny that' or something along those lines and let the one asking the question form their own opinion.
I can understand that, but understand that because of the nature of what we're dealing with, direct confirmation of things can be difficult. As I said, a lot of what has been worked out, has been done by connecting dots. If you see a black box, and don't know what's in it, but it jumps, you can probably surmise there is some sort of small animal inside it. Someone says they saw long ears poke out of it once, and guesses it could be a rabbit. You, personally, don't know for sure, so I suppose you could say that's unconfirmed and be right.

Quote:
Retcons are bound to happen with new media. That aside, I thought the term used was hundreds as in, plural.
Schach says 300 - In episode 22, there is a flashback with Shach talking to Nanoha: "We were able to use DNA analysis to discover when the person on which Vivio was based was born. It's from 300 years ago... ancient Belka, the age of the saint."
Einhart says "Hundred year regret" - http://www.onemanga.com/Magical_Girl...ha_ViVid/6/13/

Unless there is a translation error, there you have it. I am more inclined to believe that Einhart was a bit off in her estimate, or perhaps was speaking more 'poetically" and that 300 is more accurate, as it fits better with everything else.


Quote:
In addition, about the superior weaponeering technology of Belka,it is said that there was a technology outflow from the world "Al hazard" that was called the volost in eternity of the dimension world.
Snipping this bit in particular, because it shows that the Alhazard civilization and the Ancient Belka one didn't exist at the same time. The world of Al Hazard was considered lost in "eternity of the dimension world" so I assume somehow they were able to find it and use the advanced technology to begin their conquest of space (including things like the Cradle).

Quote:
End of the war
However, the families of Sankt Kaiser brought other countries under control and planned Belka unification.This war is called "Sankt Kaiser unification War" in particular.And the cradle disappeared during the wartime,they stopped declaring that they were blood relatives of Belka.In addition, the tradition and the armament of the ancient Belka magic almost became extinct in this time, too.
Thus, ancient Belka war terminated, and it is told as "war without the winner".

That said, I still don't see how this confirms your theory about Olivie sacrificing herself to destroy the Cradle. Mind, I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that at this point it's all speculation
Note that this section is "End of the war." Sankt Kaiser did the whole reunification war thing, cradle disappeared, and right after it's loss, they seemed to give up any claim to Belka; why? Because without the cradle, they couldn't continue the war. They went from advantage, to probably even or less than that.

Note that the Cradle was the Belka superweapon, used as it's base to launch the war; from a tactical standpoint, it's loss would severely hamper the war. Given with the reverence from which it's mentioned, and it's importance, occam's razor suggests that it had a power that other countries/nations/planets couldn't match. It's loss would be a huge blow to the war effort.

Thus, if Olive really wanted to stop the war, and she was the one who was controlling the cradle at the time, what would she have done? Olive is also known as "Sankt Kaiser of the Last Cradle" and we have Vivio's first flashback where she tells Ingvalt to be a good king and goes off, and Ingvalt says something about the cradle suggesting a manner that he would do something about it instead of her. We know from Einhart that he was really close to Olive, and failed to "protect" her; if he fought her to stop her from doing whatever it was she planned to do that would end her life, then that counts as him trying to protect her and failing.
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Old 2010-03-08, 11:34   Link #2295
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I can't edit the Japanese wiki, either, and a lot of times things like that bunch from the SSX booklet aren't sourced in the Japanese wiki, either. But it's there, without a source listed, so it comes from somewhere. The Nanoha wikia has been edited to slowly add that information because the Japanese take it as close enough to fact.
The one making the edit took it as fact, that's hardly the same. I've been around wikis long enough to know there's a huge difference between someone thinking that's how things go, and the story telling how things go.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I can understand that, but understand that because of the nature of what we're dealing with, direct confirmation of things can be difficult. As I said, a lot of what has been worked out, has been done by connecting dots. If you see a black box, and don't know what's in it, but it jumps, you can probably surmise there is some sort of small animal inside it. Someone says they saw long ears poke out of it once, and guesses it could be a rabbit. You, personally, don't know for sure, so I suppose you could say that's unconfirmed and be right.
I know this, but the Q&A is a thread dedicated for answering questions we only know for sure, so if we've seen a black box that jumps, we'll tell them we've seen a black box that jumps, but we don't know what's inside. It's not an ideology that I like to use, it's the basic rule of the thread:

NoSanninWa:
There are many questions that don't need a whole thread to discuss them. A simple practical answer straight from the anime or manga without any speculation can solve this connundrums. If someone has such a question about Nanoha which can be solved by answering with facts from any of the anime seasons, mangas, drama CDs, games or whatnot, then please ask that question here.

Please don't post in this thread unless you are asking a question or answering one. Please remember that it only takes 1 person to answer a question. And don't speculate! You can only reply with cold, hard, merciliessly unforgivable facts. If you have to speculate, then please just tell the querrant that no answer is known, but here are some facts that might help him make up his own mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Schach says 300 - In episode 22, there is a flashback with Shach talking to Nanoha: "We were able to use DNA analysis to discover when the person on which Vivio was based was born. It's from 300 years ago... ancient Belka, the age of the saint."
Einhart says "Hundred year regret" - http://www.onemanga.com/Magical_Girl...ha_ViVid/6/13/

Unless there is a translation error, there you have it. I am more inclined to believe that Einhart was a bit off in her estimate, or perhaps was speaking more 'poetically" and that 300 is more accurate, as it fits better with everything else.
Translation error is possible, though here's another solution: The 'hundred year regret' Ein is referring to is referring to the regret after the death of Olivie. Genetic manipulation was common among royalty in those days after all, so it's not a stretch to believe he was able to become much older than the average human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Snipping this bit in particular, because it shows that the Alhazard civilization and the Ancient Belka one didn't exist at the same time. The world of Al Hazard was considered lost in "eternity of the dimension world" so I assume somehow they were able to find it and use the advanced technology to begin their conquest of space (including things like the Cradle).
Volost, not lost. Possibly a reference to the same word used for a traditional administrative subdivision in Russia. Knowing Nanoha's tendency to reference other earth cultures (German for Belka, the typical American military government stereotype for the TSAB) it's not a stretch to believe.

All theoretical, off course. Also, use of the term outflow -assuming this translates correctly- would definitely set in stone that the two civilizations existed simultaneously at one point. There can't be an outflow from something that does not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Note that this section is "End of the war." Sankt Kaiser did the whole reunification war thing, cradle disappeared, and right after it's loss, they seemed to give up any claim to Belka; why? Because without the cradle, they couldn't continue the war. They went from advantage, to probably even or less than that.

Note that the Cradle was the Belka superweapon, used as it's base to launch the war; from a tactical standpoint, it's loss would severely hamper the war. Given with the reverence from which it's mentioned, and it's importance, occam's razor suggests that it had a power that other countries/nations/planets couldn't match. It's loss would be a huge blow to the war effort.

Thus, if Olive really wanted to stop the war, and she was the one who was controlling the cradle at the time, what would she have done? Olive is also known as "Sankt Kaiser of the Last Cradle" and we have Vivio's first flashback where she tells Ingvalt to be a good king and goes off, and Ingvalt says something about the cradle suggesting a manner that he would do something about it instead of her. We know from Einhart that he was really close to Olive, and failed to "protect" her; if he fought her to stop her from doing whatever it was she planned to do that would end her life, then that counts as him trying to protect her and failing.
As I said before, I never said the theory doesn't make sense, I merely said that up to this point it is not a fact. It is a very viable theory, and one that I personally believe happened as well, but not a fact.
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Old 2010-03-08, 12:03   Link #2296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The one making the edit took it as fact, that's hardly the same. I've been around wikis long enough to know there's a huge difference between someone thinking that's how things go, and the story telling how things go.
That's an understandable stance. I just prefer to use a bit of deductive reasoning to have dots connected to create the overall picture. I will mention that the Japanese wiki does have it's sources linked there, it's just not as cleanly linked as a normal wiki, so requires some digging.

Gonna snip out the Q&A stuff, I recognize it was my error in posting the extra deduced stuff. I had just wanted to be helpful by posting what is commonly believed based on what is known, and what was offered in other Japanese source material that isn't easily referenced here.

Quote:
Translation error is possible, though here's another solution: The 'hundred year regret' Ein is referring to is referring to the regret after the death of Olivie. Genetic manipulation was common among royalty in those days after all, so it's not a stretch to believe he was able to become much older than the average human.
Would mean he lived for 300 years, while possible, it makes things murkier. in 0075 BC the TSAB was started, which was after the wars had ended. Ingvalt would have died in 0025 BC or so, which means he would have been around for 50 years of the TSAB. Unless we get backstory dealing with him and the early Bureau, it seems tenuous at best.

Quote:
Volost, not lost. Possibly a reference to the same word used for a traditional administrative subdivision in Russia. Knowing Nanoha's tendency to reference other earth cultures (German for Belka, the typical American military government stereotype for the TSAB) it's not a stretch to believe.

All theoretical, off course. Also, use of the term outflow -assuming this translates correctly- would definitely set in stone that the two civilizations existed simultaneously at one point. There can't be an outflow from something that does not exist.
Could be a translation error, though, and outflow does not set in stone the possibility. There is another explanation: Consider that if some people from ancient Belka did find the lost, abandoned world of Al Hazard and begun to plunder it's riches, it could be described as "an outflow of technology from Al Hazard to Belka."

Quote:
As I said before, I never said the theory doesn't make sense, I merely said that up to this point it is not a fact. It is a very viable theory, and one that I personally believe happened as well, but not a fact.
In StrikerS, Subaru confronts Gin and they prepare to fight. Then it switches away to show other stuff. When it comes back, Subaru is having trouble getting up and her vision is blurry. I personally believe Gin beat her up, but she could have easily had internal problems or tripped and fell. We'll never for a fact what exactly happened, but we can extrapolate what likely happened based on other facts present: Gin beat her up.

We never see, for a fact, Yuuno teaching Nanoha to fly. But we can extrapolate from other facts that it's very likely he did; at least I personally believe so. Sometimes, one just have to take take things as they are, because one isn't going to get the hard-based facts that would complete the picture. One has to use occam's razor and a bit of deductive reasoning to extrapolate what's going on.
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Old 2010-03-08, 12:23   Link #2297
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
That's an understandable stance. I just prefer to use a bit of deductive reasoning to have dots connected to create the overall picture. I will mention that the Japanese wiki does have it's sources linked there, it's just not as cleanly linked as a normal wiki, so requires some digging.
What can I say? I'm a canon junkie. While I use deductive reasoning myself (my early pre-SSX theories included the Cradle crashing on Mid after a final battle with a fearsome foe and the dead body of the Kaiser being entombed where the first church was build) but when it comes to canon, I tend to get very thorough once information gets available.

Official information will always trump speculation for me. Comes with being a Star Wars fan, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Gonna snip out the Q&A stuff, I recognize it was my error in posting the extra deduced stuff. I had just wanted to be helpful by posting what is commonly believed based on what is known, and what was offered in other Japanese source material that isn't easily referenced here.
And it was appreciated. Like I said, the only reason we put as much fire on you as we did was because we were confused and afraid we'd missed something important.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Would mean he lived for 300 years, while possible, it makes things murkier. in 0075 BC the TSAB was started, which was after the wars had ended. Ingvalt would have died in 0025 BC or so, which means he would have been around for 50 years of the TSAB. Unless we get backstory dealing with him and the early Bureau, it seems tenuous at best.
It doesn't have to mean he lived 300 years at all, just the 'hundred years of regret' Ein talks about. Olivie died, Ingvalt lives 100 years in regret, he dies and passes those years of regret on to his descendants.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Could be a translation error, though, and outflow does not set in stone the possibility. There is another explanation: Consider that if some people from ancient Belka did find the lost, abandoned world of Al Hazard and begun to plunder it's riches, it could be described as "an outflow of technology from Al Hazard to Belka."
That's a discovery though, not an outflow. When it comes to civilizations (countries, nations, what have you) an outflow means that whatever is flowing out does so because of political or economical reasons. It's usually bad for the country in question, which might actually help to explain why Mid went to hell as well.

Dead civilizations can't have an outflow, because there is no civilization left to flow out from. Now what we could describe this as in an inflow of technology for Belka, that would be possible even from a dead civilization, but if the term outflow is linked to Al Hazard, that means they were alive at the time.

Of course, this is still assuming outflow was the word used in Japanese as well, and on top of that assuming the word has the same meaning as well.

's all still speculation at this point.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
In StrikerS, Subaru confronts Gin and they prepare to fight. Then it switches away to show other stuff. When it comes back, Subaru is having trouble getting up and her vision is blurry. I personally believe Gin beat her up, but she could have easily had internal problems or tripped and fell. We'll never for a fact what exactly happened, but we can extrapolate what likely happened based on other facts present: Gin beat her up.

We never see, for a fact, Yuuno teaching Nanoha to fly. But we can extrapolate from other facts that it's very likely he did; at least I personally believe so. Sometimes, one just have to take take things as they are, because one isn't going to get the hard-based facts that would complete the picture. One has to use occam's razor and a bit of deductive reasoning to extrapolate what's going on.
I've said it before many times, but I understand this. I'm unsure what you're trying to prove here, but I understand that we can use our imagination to fill in the blanks. However, that does not make it fact.

You use easy examples to justify your point, but here is another one: Nanoha and Fate were sharing a bed in StrikerS. What did they do at night? Many flamewars have started over the answers our imagination cooked up. Which one is true?
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Old 2010-03-08, 13:09   Link #2298
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
What can I say? I'm a canon junkie. While I use deductive reasoning myself (my early pre-SSX theories included the Cradle crashing on Mid after a final battle with a fearsome foe and the dead body of the Kaiser being entombed where the first church was build) but when it comes to canon, I tend to get very thorough once information gets available.

Official information will always trump speculation for me. Comes with being a Star Wars fan, I guess.
More official information is always nice, heh. I'll do some more digging and google translating from some of the Japanese wiki sources, and see if I can come up with some more concrete answers.

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It doesn't have to mean he lived 300 years at all, just the 'hundred years of regret' Ein talks about. Olivie died, Ingvalt lives 100 years in regret, he dies and passes those years of regret on to his descendants.
Well, Schach basically says Olive was born 300 years ago, although that could be a general estimate. Hmm, a rough timeline:

0225 BC - Olive born? No idea on how long she lived or when she died.
0075 BC - TSAB founded
0021 BC - Ingvalt dies (Ein's hundred year regret). Would mean he was at least 200 years old, so I suppose technically possible. He'd be around for about 54 years of the Bureau's operation.

Quote:
That's a discovery though, not an outflow. When it comes to civilizations (countries, nations, what have you) an outflow means that whatever is flowing out does so because of political or economical reasons. It's usually bad for the country in question, which might actually help to explain why Mid went to hell as well.

Dead civilizations can't have an outflow, because there is no civilization left to flow out from. Now what we could describe this as in an inflow of technology for Belka, that would be possible even from a dead civilization, but if the term outflow is linked to Al Hazard, that means they were alive at the time.

Of course, this is still assuming outflow was the word used in Japanese as well, and on top of that assuming the word has the same meaning as well.
We might have to agree to disagree on this. My interpretation is that it's still a bit fuzzy, both with regards to translation and to original intent. I feel it can go either way. Here's both viewpoints:

Al Hazard was up and giving technology to Belka, but this brings out the question of "Why?" Why was Al Hazard giving technology to Belka? What would they be getting in return? What happened to them (did they just give technology and then go poof?) If the technology was so good that Belka wanted it, it meant that Belka couldn't obviously just take it. But it's never really heard from again after "giving" technology to Belka for use in it's conquest of other planets.

The other is that the Al Hazard civilization died out, and they came across some well-preserved ruins, and started the place up, perhaps claiming it as a new planet or city of the empire. Thus, once they got stuff like factories up and running, there was an outflow of weapons and armaments that enabled Belka to conquer it's neighbors.

But yes, speculation. I feel the first leaves too many unanswered questions, which is why I disregard it at this time. Also, in S1, Al Hazard is really referred to more in a mystical sense(it can fulfill all your wishes), and Precia apparently did enough research to believe it could bring back the dead, or at least striving for a mystical place might have been her last gasp.

Given the series overall, Al Hazard seems to be a more mystical place than Ancient Belka, which has more history and information available; if they truly existed at the same time, there should be roughly similar levels of information about it, which would make it lose it's mystical status. Also seemed to be more wondrous things the Ancients of Al Hazard could do, which doesn't seem to be the same for Ancient Belka. Being able to bring back the dead would have done wonders for Ancient Belka in its wars, heh.

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I've said it before many times, but I understand this. I'm unsure what you're trying to prove here, but I understand that we can use our imagination to fill in the blanks. However, that does not make it fact.

You use easy examples to justify your point, but here is another one: Nanoha and Fate were sharing a bed in StrikerS. What did they do at night? Many flamewars have started over the answers our imagination cooked up. Which one is true?
Mainly because we might not get "fact" and a lot of things work on assumption. A lot of times writers don't want to go into extreme detail, or have things worked out, or just assume their audience is intelligent enough to get the logical deduction; he feels he doesn't need to spell it out.

A single dot on a graph, does not a picture make. With many dots, you can begin to connect them to form a meaningful line, or a even a picture. Even though discussing shipping is largely dangerous and I'll feel retaliation, I'll say that the bed-sharing is not conclusive of anything and I feel it's taken out of porportion; military barracks normally have multiple people sharing rooms, like Teana and Subaru did. It's just that the captains get a nicer room. Nanoha, Fate, Hayate, and Rein all shared a bed, too, and I don't see a foursome being declared, heh.

Now, if there was emotional things like declarations of love, or showing inner thoughts that things were more than friends, even from one of them, it might be enough to connect the dots to here.

But bottom line is, I wanted to show that sometimes we aren't going to get confirmation of facts for various reasons, and so we just kinda have to go, "Yeah, it's not exactly said, but based on the strength of evidence, kind of assumed that's the way it is."

Hopefully, Vivid will give us some more concrete backstory on Belka, so you can get those facts.^^
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Old 2010-03-08, 13:24   Link #2299
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Well, Schach basically says Olive was born 300 years ago, although that could be a general estimate. Hmm, a rough timeline:

0225 BC - Olive born? No idea on how long she lived or when she died.
0075 BC - TSAB founded
0021 BC - Ingvalt dies (Ein's hundred year regret). Would mean he was at least 200 years old, so I suppose technically possible. He'd be around for about 54 years of the Bureau's operation.
You'll have to explain how you got to 0021 BC as Ingvalt's possible death, shouldn't that be 0121 BC?

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Al Hazard was up and giving technology to Belka, but this brings out the question of "Why?" Why was Al Hazard giving technology to Belka? What would they be getting in return? What happened to them (did they just give technology and then go poof?) If the technology was so good that Belka wanted it, it meant that Belka couldn't obviously just take it. But it's never really heard from again after "giving" technology to Belka for use in it's conquest of other planets.
Money. If we use real life analogies, economy is the most common cause of technology outflow. Particularly arms sell well. Look at Africa, a continent that on many parts is rather underdeveloped technologically, yet rebels there use weapons way above the rest of the tech level. Why? Profit.

Same case here. Belka was a waring nation, which means weapons sell like hotcackes.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But yes, speculation. I feel the first leaves too many unanswered questions, which is why I disregard it at this time. Also, in S1, Al Hazard is really referred to more in a mystical sense(it can fulfill all your wishes), and Precia apparently did enough research to believe it could bring back the dead, or at least striving for a mystical place might have been her last gasp.
And a dead Belkan king is worshiped like a god, so when it comes down to it Belka is just as mythical as Al Hazard.

But I do wonder, what unanswered questions does the first raise that don't exist in the second?

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
But bottom line is, I wanted to show that sometimes we aren't going to get confirmation of facts for various reasons, and so we just kinda have to go, "Yeah, it's not exactly said, but based on the strength of evidence, kind of assumed that's the way it is."
Ironically, that's all I really meant anyway. Not 'well, it's so and so because if you connect the dots this is the logical answer' but 'well, I think it's so and so, because of this and that'
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Old 2010-03-08, 14:06   Link #2300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You'll have to explain how you got to 0021 BC as Ingvalt's possible death, shouldn't that be 0125 BC?
Well, Einhart says "hundred year regret". If Ingvalt was regretting things 100 years ago, and it's 0079 now, then 0021 BC is the latest he would have been alive to regret things.

Quote:
Money. If we use real life analogies, economy is the most common cause of technology outflow. Particularly arms sell well. Look at Africa, a continent that on many parts is rather underdeveloped technologically, yet rebels there use weapons way above the rest of the tech level. Why? Profit.

Same case here. Belka was a waring nation, which means weapons sell like hotcackes.
The big issue I see with this, is that Al Hazard stuff is regarded as much better than Belka stuff. Precia wanted Al Hazard, not Ancient Belka. It would be like the US selling F-22 Raptors and Aircraft carriers to Russia when Russia is busily trying to take over it's neighbors. Would seem to be a policy lacking in some common sense, because an aggressive neighbor could eventually come after you.

Quote:
And a dead Belkan king is worshiped like a god, so when it comes down to it Belka is just as mythical as Al Hazard.
Well, to be fair, the remnants of the saint kaiser family basically started their church after Olive's death, to devote it to peace in memory of Olive (hence the shroud). They actively

Al Hazard to them is much like Atlantis to us; it's shrouded in a lot of mystery, may or may not exist, yet has hints that they were much more advanced at the time.

Quote:
But I do wonder, what unanswered questions does the first raise that don't exist in the second?
Primarily: Why would Alhazard give/sell highly advanced weapons to Ancient Belka(the Cradles, may be more than one), when they see it's such a warring neighbor? An empire must expand to survive, and thus sooner or later, Belka would have turned on Al Hazard with the force of an entire universe. Those ancients would have been pretty clueless to not see that particular possibility. And like I said, Al Hazard is pretty much not heard from again after giving weapons to Belka; hey, maybe those ancients were pretty stupid, heh.

Thanks again for being a good discussor of topics; it's always appreciated.^^
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