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Old 2007-05-03, 08:33   Link #821
Erio
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Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05 View Post
hmmm...yea if it is related to whatever is happening in the story, then there will be such an episode...i'm just really curious about what happened in that event, thats all
You know? I dont think the writers came up with such an interesting flashback--I mean, that was the biggest surprise of the comics--just to have Vita traumatized and paranoid about Nanoha getting attacked again. There just has to be more of it. And there is also the talks about Nanoha's health, which, if you ask me, are most likely linked to those events. I can totally see Vita saying in one of the later episodes, "!!! This bastard! He's the one who almost killed Nanoha 6 years ago!!" *Goes berserk*
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Old 2007-05-03, 09:02   Link #822
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
You know? I dont think the writers came up with such an interesting flashback--I mean, that was the biggest surprise of the comics--just to have Vita traumatized and paranoid about Nanoha getting attacked again. There just has to be more of it. And there is also the talks about Nanoha's health, which, if you ask me, are most likely linked to those events. I can totally see Vita saying in one of the later episodes, "!!! This bastard! He's the one who almost killed Nanoha 6 years ago!!" *Goes berserk*

Must... Resist... Urge... To Criticize and disprove... Paranoia...!
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Old 2007-05-03, 09:15   Link #823
Erio
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Cool

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Must... Resist... Urge... To Criticize and disprove... Paranoia...!
lol I knew it. While the last part of my post was all speculation, surely the writers wouldnt show us that flashback or bring up anything about Nanoha's health for nothing. I'm sure at least you, Commander of the Anti-Paranoia 6th Mobile Division, know that!
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Old 2007-05-03, 09:16   Link #824
BatAttack
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I still want something like a timeline of the development of Alhazred, Belka, and Midchilda's reigns as advanced cultures. Did they overlap at all or were they separated by millenia?
I agree, this info would be very interesting.
Of course, it might prove complicated.. given it is the time-space administration B., these various locations and cultures might be in different dimensions or timelines..

Anyway, I can see lots of potential spin-offs that I would like to see..

As well as the old "Scrya Clan ruin explorers" there could be a show set in Ancient Belka.. perhaps at the height of its Kingdom's culture? Or perhaps during its downfall..


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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen
I'm sorry that I lost my temper, but you rubbed me the wrong way after I had to hold my pee for 1+ hour on the bus (long story, don't ask...)
Then I'm glad I didn't attack your bladder directly.. 0_o;


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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen
Begin able to fly practically means that youíre someone of reasonable capability and status. Itís the same as having government agents walking around with their big FBI or CIA letters on their forehead.
Hmmm... to be honest, I never even considered the necessity for discretion.

It's not like they are secret agents, and Mid-Childa is their home turf.
However, since the airport and train incidents occured on Mid, obviously all is not well - though they were teleporting drones.

I would assume an enemy who is on Mid-Childa would know enough to be able to identify TSAB uniforms and rank badges. Fate probably has her enforcer status reflected somewhere on her jacket.

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Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05
other than that, i've been hearing one person's rant about how the progression of StrikerS is different from the previous seasons....
Yeah, don't worry. I'm almost burned out. The rant is over.

Having heard a number of reasonable justifications, I will withdraw most of my complaints, leaving only the ones about the ability limiter and the characterless drones (which will be forgiven if the real enemies get enough screen time).
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Old 2007-05-03, 09:28   Link #825
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post

Then I'm glad I didn't attack your bladder directly.. 0_o;
Many thanks, it was NOT a pleasant trip to say the least...


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Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
Hmmm... to be honest, I never even considered the necessity for discretion.

It's not like they are secret agents, and Mid-Childa is their home turf.
However, since the airport and train incidents occured on Mid, obviously all is not well - though they were teleporting drones.

I would assume an enemy who is on Mid-Childa would know enough to be able to identify TSAB uniforms and rank badges. Fate probably has her enforcer status reflected somewhere on her jacket.
It's just simply not to cause any unnecessary fuss...

Quote:
Yeah, don't worry. I'm almost burned out. The rant is over.

Having heard a number of reasonable justifications, I will withdraw most of my complaints, leaving only the ones about the ability limiter and the characterless drones (which will be forgiven if the real enemies get enough screen time).
The limiter does make some sense, the reason why it feels weird is perhaps because their military works alot different from any of ours.

But as I've said during that episode, it all depends on HOW the limiters are remove, if it's something simple that the users could remove it themselves, then I don't see what the problem is...

As for the drones... Well, I was hoping for something on a BIGGER scale
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Old 2007-05-03, 09:32   Link #826
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I'm not so sure about spin-offs... They'd be a great idea, naturally, but I wonder if Nanoha's franchise is large enough and cash-milky enough to explore it's created settings and history through large-scale exploitations like a young Graham/Lindy/3 Great Admirals spin-off or like said, a Velkan Story, like one fanfic idea running in my head about a pseudo-Arabian civil war/Crusades/Old German Templar Knights stuff judging from the apparent style of old Velka. Nanoha isn't exactly Star Trek, Star Wars or Gundam... and even those series relied heavily on countless mangas, and novels in exploring it's universe.

The limiter issue at this point is still moot, when they can easily beat their conventional enemies with ease, but when they remove it to destroy recurring villains and ruin long-term villain credibility, then that's a problem. I hope it won't degenerate to that, but if we're to assume that Nanoha got royally pwned in the past legitly due to clear difference in strength, then I'd doubt it's going to be a large problem...unless the pwner turns out to be the l33t final boss.

As for the change in pace...I'd like to think of it as GaoGaiGar FINAL => Gundam.
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Old 2007-05-03, 09:42   Link #827
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
lol I knew it. While the last part of my post was all speculation, surely the writers wouldnt show us that flashback or bring up anything about Nanoha's health for nothing. I'm sure at least you, Commander of the Anti-Paranoia 6th Mobile Division, know that!
Taken from "The Simpsons" ...

Quote:

Lisa: But dad! People have been trying to predict the end of the world for centuries! What makes YOU any different?

Homer: Because I have something that they don't honey... A REALLY GOOD feeling about this !
Or in Nanoha's case, a REALLY BAD feeling about this.
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Old 2007-05-03, 10:11   Link #828
Erio
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
But as I've said during that episode, it all depends on HOW the limiters are remove, if it's something simple that the users could remove it themselves, then I don't see what the problem is...
Even though they mentioned that Chrono and Carim have the key to unlock Hayate, I still believe that Hayate and the others can unlock the limiter themselves, but that would go against the TSAB's protocol and they would be punished for it. It wouldnt make sense if Hayate was in a pinch and would have to dial Chrono's cellphone to ask for her power to be unlocked. She'd be dead by then.

Quote:
As for the drones... Well, I was hoping for something on a BIGGER scale
*Images of Supreme Commander come to mind* Oh yeah.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Taken from "The Simpsons" ...

Quote:
Lisa: But dad! People have been trying to predict the end of the world for centuries! What makes YOU any different?

Homer: Because I have something that they don't honey... A REALLY GOOD feeling about this !
Or in Nanoha's case, a REALLY BAD feeling about this.
If we replace Homer with SSS-class Paranoia Criminal Meophist there, it all makes sense now.
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Old 2007-05-03, 14:03   Link #829
dkellis
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I suppose one problem I have with the Nanoha-verse is that we know so little about it, and how it all works. I'm the sort of person who loves to pick apart fictional worlds and see how they hang together, which means that when I encounter a plot hole, I nitpick at it until I invariably get yelled at to stop by other fans.

Now, since we know almost nothing about the Nanoha-verse, this means that when we come across something that seems odd at first, I have no idea whether it's part of the story and fully planned out by the series creator, or it's a plot hole.

I just can't leave the whole "serial numbers for cartridge systems" thing alone, sorry. Not to mention "how much of TSAB regulations did RH know in A's?" Or "how did Yuuno use RH, if he clearly doesn't need it and is surprised by Nanoha's facility with it?"
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Old 2007-05-03, 21:16   Link #830
BatAttack
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Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
Now, since we know almost nothing about the Nanoha-verse, this means that when we come across something that seems odd at first, I have no idea whether it's part of the story and fully planned out by the series creator, or it's a plot hole.

I just can't leave the whole "serial numbers for cartridge systems" thing alone, sorry. Not to mention "how much of TSAB regulations did RH know in A's?" Or "how did Yuuno use RH, if he clearly doesn't need it and is surprised by Nanoha's facility with it?"
Yeah, I feel the same way about plot-holes and inconsistencies.
And there seem to be a fair few in the transition from As to StrikersS too..

Ok, conjecture time...

1) Perhaps cartridges had been used by TSAB in the past, and were an old technolgy that had fallen out of favour as IDs and SDs became more sophisicated and delicate (that was the stated reason why IDs did not generally have cartridge systems installed). Even though they were old parts, they would still have been in the technology database.

Actually, the ones that did not recognise cartridges right away were Nanoha, Fate, Arf and Yuuno.
If Chrono had been involved in the first battle of A's, he might very well have recognised cartridge technology right away.

2) Perhaps Intelligent Devices can talk to each other, on a machine level that the human operators are not aware of (think of Bardiche and Raging Heart private messaging each other - oh, there is fan-fic potential here). Perhaps they both obtained parts catalog information from Chrono's SD, or the Asura's or HQ's computers.

3) Yuuno was using Raging Heart in non-deployed mode, probably because RH's drain is too much for him; thus he was forced to use it in its dormant state - perhaps in this form it only provides minor magical assistance, but without all the drain.

Yuuno could use it this way because he is already an accomplished Mage, used to casting spells without a device. Form him RH was just an amplifier.

Nanoha however had never cast a spell in her life, and had no magical training. Yuuno knew that if she was to cast any spells at all, she would need the assistance of an Intelligent Device to do it.

Though it was her first time using magic, the spells just sort of 'came to her' - she seemed to know them almost right away, just from thinking about it - could it be that Raging Heart was telepathically sending her the formulas that would need to conceptualise in order to cast spells? That would seem to be a good use of the 'Intelligent' part of an Intelligent Device.
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Last edited by BatAttack; 2007-05-03 at 21:28.
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Old 2007-05-03, 22:21   Link #831
Skane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
~ I just can't leave the whole "serial numbers for cartridge systems" thing alone, sorry. Not to mention "how much of TSAB regulations did RH know in A's?" Or "how did Yuuno use RH, if he clearly doesn't need it and is surprised by Nanoha's facility with it?"
About the serial numbers, what is your issue with it? I need a specific answer from you so that I can see whether you are really pointing out a real plothole or not.

What "TSAB Regulations"?

Why wouldn't Yuuno need RH? Recall please, what needed to be done to "SEAL" the Jewel Seeds. If Yuuno could do that without RH, we would have seen him sealing Jewel Seeds without using RH's "Sealing Mode". A mode that Bardiche has as well by the way. Also, Yuuno specialises in non-combat magic. RH gave him more offensive options, to the detriment of his Linker Core unfortunately.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-05-03, 22:51   Link #832
Erio
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Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
Though it was her first time using magic, the spells just sort of 'came to her' - she seemed to know them almost right away, just from thinking about it - could it be that Raging Heart was telepathically sending her the formulas that would need to conceptualise in order to cast spells? That would seem to be a good use of the 'Intelligent' part of an Intelligent Device.
If I recall correctly, Nanoha did not come up with the spells. Every time she was going to use a new spell, either Raising Heart or Yuuno told her what to do. For example, RH telling Nanoha: "Lets shoot it! Accel Shooter!" She was then surprised when she saw all the energy balls, and RH followed by saying "Control, please."
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Old 2007-05-03, 23:34   Link #833
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But in the manga Chrono goes off on her for not mathing-out her starlight breaker variation beforehand, implying that she's got some sort of creative hand in that one.

You'd think if it were just from back when RH got created it'd already be nice and stable.

Also the accel shooter is the first time she's cast the spell (assuming it is just divine shooter with more power) with a cartridge, it could just be the increase in power that surprised her.
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Old 2007-05-03, 23:45   Link #834
Erio
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But in the manga Chrono goes off on her for not mathing-out her starlight breaker variation beforehand, implying that she's got some sort of creative hand in that one.
Haha, yes that was funny. And actually, Starlight Breaker is a Divine Buster variation. A more powerful version, that's it. So, I guess, since she knows the main spell, she can change it a bit and create variations. That shouldnt be as hard as learning a new one, huh?
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Old 2007-05-03, 23:49   Link #835
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
If I recall correctly, Nanoha did not come up with the spells. Every time she was going to use a new spell, either Raising Heart or Yuuno told her what to do. For example, RH telling Nanoha: "Lets shoot it! Accel Shooter!" She was then surprised when she saw all the energy balls, and RH followed by saying "Control, please."

Yah, but she still has to cast the spell herself, and as Kikaifan pointed out, the manga states mages have to conceptualise the magical/mathematical formula to cast it.

As I understand it, the magical circles that form, with all the runes - those runes mean something - the casting mage has to be able to conceptualise all those runes correctly, as well as provide enough magical energy for a spell to be succesfully cast.

I think what may have happened there is Raging Heart fed her the formula through standard magic telepathic comunication (bin mode, ha!) - once she knew it, she was able to conceptualise it and cast the spell.

When she saw the spell's result though, she was surprised by its output.
It is one thing to know a spell formula, it is another to see the spell in execution.


EDIT: Obviously she can form her own spells, but initially, when she had no magical experience what so ever, they must have come from somewhere. And I don't think yelling out the name of a spell is enough..

I think that by episode 3, when she needed a long range variant of the standard sealing spell, she is chopping and changing spell fragments to make her own.. Raging Heart probably provides her with templates and code fragments, and she puts them together to make the spell that she desires.
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Last edited by BatAttack; 2007-05-04 at 00:35.
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Old 2007-05-03, 23:50   Link #836
LoweGear
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Originally Posted by Erio
Haha, yes that was funny. And actually, Starlight Breaker is a Divine Buster variation. A more powerful version, that's it. So, I guess, since she knows the main spell, she can change it a bit and create variations. That shouldnt be as hard as learning a new one, huh?
Much like how people find it much easier to create something from a template rather than build from scratch. However, Starlight Breaker does utilize a different power source from Divine Buster (using Linker Core magic as a ignition primer for the collected energy). So Nanoha still takes credit for the creation of a spell, if not totally new.
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Old 2007-05-04, 01:04   Link #837
Erio
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Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
Yah, but she still has to cast the spell herself, and as Kikaifan pointed out, the manga states mages have to conceptualise the magical/mathematical formula to cast it.
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Much like how people find it much easier to create something from a template rather than build from scratch. However, Starlight Breaker does utilize a different power source from Divine Buster (using Linker Core magic as a ignition primer for the collected energy). So Nanoha still takes credit for the creation of a spell, if not totally new.
@_@ Wow, lots of new info for me. I never paid much attention to this, but I guess you guys sure did. I'll have to re-read the comics, as I skipped some of it to get right into A's to StrikerS.

LoweGear, I didnt know about the difference in power sources... is that also on the comics? (Geez, I've been missing out on lots of details)
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Old 2007-05-04, 01:13   Link #838
BatAttack
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LoweGear, I didnt know about the difference in power sources... is that also on the comics? (Geez, I've been missing out on lots of details)
Some of the info is available on the MSLN technology wiki page, which is gathered from some sort of canonical fan book that was released in Japan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical...ha_terminology


There is not much in the manga about spell casting theory, it just emphasises the point that magical theory and mathematics are important in spell-casting (hence Nanoha's good grades, as mentioned in ep1 season1 are a good start to her magical career - her crazy powerful linker core is, of course, the other).
Casting a spell is a lot more than just yelling out an attack name and feeding it some energy.

*Some of the information is a little contradictory - the wiki tech page only talks of triggers, and stored spells; the manga implies magic and theory and math are required.
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Old 2007-05-04, 01:20   Link #839
Kha
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
@_@ Wow, lots of new info for me. I never paid much attention to this, but I guess you guys sure did. I'll have to re-read the comics, as I skipped some of it to get right into A's to StrikerS.

LoweGear, I didnt know about the difference in power sources... is that also on the comics? (Geez, I've been missing out on lots of details)
Indeed. *adds some mental notes from manga canon*

Lowe was talking about where Starlight Breaker derived its power. Most spells draw directly from the mage's Linker Core and hence would vary according to the power of the mage, but Starlight Breaker cheats by drawing on the power left over from earlier attacks (which really flies in the face of the Law of Entropy without abstract mathematical interpretation in the 4th dimension, but then again Nanoha's the first magical girl I noe who excels at math), gathering them into a point, then uses the Linker to spark off a directed chain reaction. Hence the power output of that spell really varies to how long the battle has gone on, how much Nanoha can compress to critical mass and spark off, and how well she can control the resulting reaction.

A spell of that magnitude backfiring would seriously hurt IMO like what Wing Zero Custom's buster rifle did to its damaged arm.

Hmm... I just got a brainwave...

Injured Nanoha... "I messed up."... Total wreck around her body... And yet no enemy in sight...



Could it be that the Starlight Breaker really backfired before? I'm thinking that she was trying to cast the spell against the enemy, but possibly due to her being somewhat injured/fatigued she could've lost control and while the resulting explosion blew the target out of existence, it took out everything around, including herself. Is this a plausible scenario?
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Old 2007-05-04, 01:52   Link #840
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Nanoha still didn't understand highschool level math when she came up with SB though, she's obviously not doing thermodynamic calculations in her head. Not that I would expect thermodynamical law to apply to magic.

Is that part about it being a chain reaction hard fact or speculation?
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