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Old 2008-10-08, 05:11   Link #1801
arkhangelsk
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Posting on the run from work.
Don't we all.

Quote:
Getting promoted to shift manager and running the morning shift after spending almost 6 weeks on night shift has not been fun. Posting without nice quotings:
My sympathies, and fine.

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Personally I note that conscription/impressment seems to be something that ark favors quite alot. Poster appeal, perhaps? (Wonder how happy he'd be if it's applied to him...)

Also, the reason most armies go to a professional military is because professional, volunteer soldiers tend to perform better than conscripts. People who're fighting for a cause they willingly chose will fight harder than people forced into the meat grinder.
Well, from my narrow individualist perspective, I won't like it much at all. But then I don't like paying taxes either. A national leader has different priorities and duties.

So, conscription from the strategic perspective, short version. You've just enunciated one of the reasons. The other reason is that volunteers tend to hang around longer, so they get more chance to accumulate experience. These two factors produce the superiority.

On the other hand, a historical argument for conscription is that you have the chance to use the best of the bunch, rather than just those who volunteer. It is an argument between talent and motivation+experience.

On Earth, the talent gap is limited, and thus motivation and experience dominates. At least that's the lesson that seems to be true so far. But the same is not true for the TSAB. I think one thing all can agree on is the chasm b/w normals and cracks, and the value of pure talent, in the TSAB and its fighting doctrines.

You see?

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@Jimmy & Ark: Regards isolationism, I suggest reading Thomas E. Rick's Making the Corps, where he follows USMC Recruit Platoon 6096 through Basic at Parris Island. Ricks makes an interesting observation: almost every single graduate of Platoon 6096 felt a sense of isolation from the fabric of American soceity which they were once part of. Now if this applies to people born and bred within that soceity, what more to cyborgs isolated literally from soceity?
Interesting. Now, did they get superiority complexes from all this isolation and start wanting to dominant all of American society?

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@ark: regarding what you said on me running SoD in a half-assed manner, I'd like to point out that you're the pot calling the frying pan black Also ark, I approach SoD in a similar manner to a Javelin gunner in C-Co 3 Para at FOB Gibraltar in Afghanistan. The Javelin gunner knows how to load, aim, fire, and remove a dud missile. He does not know about the intricacies of the Javelin. He does not know the nitty-gritty internal details.

And he does not care. So long as it works and fires the missile and hits, he is satisfied.

Likewise, ark, I'm in this because I write fanfiction. I create a world. So long as there is a solution that works and is plausible, I will use it. My focus is on writing a story - I do not intend to kill myself with details that are, in the end, useless and of little relevance to me.
Here's my view. First, your Javelin gunner had better know such things as the range of his missiles. He should know how to use any markings in his scope to assist in stadiametric ranging to ensure the target is within range. If conditions will degrade the effective range of the Javelin he might want to know that too...

Same with your FanFic. You might want to know how your characters will act and what they can do. How? Analysis.

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I also want to point out that unlike ark here, I at least tried to put my money where my mouth is and join the Navy Reserve. I was rejected because the Navy did not want a sailor who was undergoing outpatient psychiatric treatment for depression.
Would you have been equally enthusiastic had you:
1) had to volunteer for the PLA rather than the USNR.
2) lived in an area where you can neither be conscripted or volunteer for service (HKSAR).
3) had to learn another language (Mandarin) to fluency before even considering signing up.
4) had to convince the guy doing your physical to overlook the fact you are blind in one eye.
5) as well as how close you are to cardiac arrest after the first test run, so woefully out of shape you are (partially caused by a sedentary lifestyle forced on you by 4).
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Old 2008-10-08, 12:09   Link #1802
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
My sympathies, and fine.
Sympathies accepted. We have a saying here; "Drinking water while diving." Think really on the job learning.

The great irony is that outta my 5 peers, I was the only person to pass the promotion test on my first try... and I'm the only person who hasn't been trained as a shift manager. So yes, learn as I go along. Back to 12-hour days yay.

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Well, from my narrow individualist perspective, I won't like it much at all. But then I don't like paying taxes either. A national leader has different priorities and duties.

So, conscription from the strategic perspective, short version. You've just enunciated one of the reasons. The other reason is that volunteers tend to hang around longer, so they get more chance to accumulate experience. These two factors produce the superiority.

On the other hand, a historical argument for conscription is that you have the chance to use the best of the bunch, rather than just those who volunteer. It is an argument between talent and motivation+experience.

On Earth, the talent gap is limited, and thus motivation and experience dominates. At least that's the lesson that seems to be true so far. But the same is not true for the TSAB. I think one thing all can agree on is the chasm b/w normals and cracks, and the value of pure talent, in the TSAB and its fighting doctrines.
You have a point there, but let's look back at WW2. Take the US Airborne Divisions, the Royal Marines Commando, Rangers, British Airborne, British Army Commando, SAS; all these units were for the most part staffed with people who had intially been drafted, but then volunteered to join their respective units (82nd and 101st were volunteer-only, as were Rangers and SAS, while the Royal Marines and Army Commando were half Army & Marines being reassigned and half volunteers, although they ultimately became all-volunteer by D-Day and beyond). These units for the most part performed better than draft units, due to the fact that they had higher morale from being volunteers. Even Singapore, Israel and Switzerland, which have compulsory National Service, maintain a professional military. Volunteer units have a higher espirit de corps and morale compared to conscript units. That's a force multiplier right there.

(Random trivia: Christopher Lee auditioned for a role in the Longest Day and was turned down as he did not look military enough. For great lulz, Lee served in the SAS during WW2. )

Quote:
Interesting. Now, did they get superiority complexes from all this isolation and start wanting to dominant all of American society?
Most of the graduates of 6096 that Ricks interviewed actually expressed such statements. The overall impression Ricks received from them was that they believed that yes, America would be better off if taken over by the Corps and that they were superior to those weak, slovenly untidy civillians.

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Here's my view. First, your Javelin gunner had better know such things as the range of his missiles. He should know how to use any markings in his scope to assist in stadiametric ranging to ensure the target is within range. If conditions will degrade the effective range of the Javelin he might want to know that too...
The Javelin is a fire and forget weapon: point, lock on, and shoot. And if it's not in range, it won't lock - it relies on IIR guidance. As for conditions degrading the effective range, it's a goddamn missile. Unless you're talking about heavy smoke or the enemy deploying WP so as to defeat the thermal sights on the CLU.

And no, the Javelin does not have stadia markings. If it's out of range, it WILL NOT LOCK. Simple as that.

And you missed my point yet again. For the Javelin gunner, all that he wants and cares is that the missile will perform as expected - and that was indeed the attitude of Javelin gunners that Michael Yon met during his recent embed at FOB Gibraltar. When the missile misfires, he's not interested in understanding the root causes; he swaps to another missile that works because in the midst of a firefight, what he wants and needs is to be able to employ his weapon effectively. He does not need to know 100% how it works. He does not care about the little tiny intricacies like how much wiring is in it, how electrical pulses send the little signals into the computers, or how the IIR seeker works. It works in combat, that's good enough.

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Same with your FanFic. You might want to know how your characters will act and what they can do. How? Analysis.
I do analyse , ark. The point I'm trying to make, which you seem to be either ignoring or missing (but then that's nothing new), is that I look for something works. If it works and it's plausible, then I'll go with it. I build my world and I do have an interest in how everything fits together. But my main purpose is to tell a story.

If I were to be taking things too far the way you're doing, I'd never get anything done.

Quote:
Would you have been equally enthusiastic had you:
1) had to volunteer for the PLA rather than the USNR.
2) lived in an area where you can neither be conscripted or volunteer for service (HKSAR).
3) had to learn another language (Mandarin) to fluency before even considering signing up.
4) had to convince the guy doing your physical to overlook the fact you are blind in one eye.
5) as well as how close you are to cardiac arrest after the first test run, so woefully out of shape you are (partially caused by a sedentary lifestyle forced on you by 4).
1) I was volunteering for the Royal Malaysian Navy Reserve.
2) Hmmm, they don't like HKers protecting themselves? Then again you are under China, and previously were protected by the Brits. *shrugs* Sucks to be you. On the other hand the Malaysian armed forces are institutionally racist; if you're not Malay your chances of promotion are really really low, unless you join the Sarawak Rangers (who started out as an all-Iban jungle scout unit and are now a multiracial LRRP/commando/jungle warfare). The Navy isn't as bad as the Air Force or the Army, at least, which is some small compensation.
3) Sucks to be you again. I'm fluent in Malay and English, but then almost everyone in Malaysia can speak English and Malay to some extent. (And like every single Chinese here speaks Mandarin, Cantonese, and a local dialect depending on where they're from; in Penang it's Hokkien, in Sabah it's Hakka...)
4) I passed my physical. *shrugs*
5) Just barely, but I passed. The outpatient treatment for depression sunk me.

I find it rather amusing that you think I'm an American, however, despite me saying more than once that I am Malaysian.

I also want to repeat here that it is intellectually dishonest, and hypocritical, to accept Strike Witches and leave it be, and not SoD Nanoha. If you're going to SoD, and not do it in a halfassed manner, you might as well go all in, no? And let's not forget your explanation of vapor trails in space was rather ridiculous - what kind of aircraft ejects coolant from the wingtips, from the same place where your beloved vortices form?

And if you want to complain about 5 guys vs you, the fact that 5 different guys disagree with 5 different things you put out says more about you than it does about them. Besides, we both know you're in this for them fightin's. So you can't exactly complain.

Also, ark, you can't accuse me of hypocrisy. I never stated I was SoDomising Nanoha. So there. Basically you take all this too seriously. As for being half-assed... I'll just analyse and make my world in a half-assed manner. >:3*

Only Kagerou will actually get this... you need to have seen Rescue Wings to get the whole scene. A little in-joke to myself.

Also, new word into Cadia's terminology:

SoDomising: verb, The process of taking suspension of Disbelief anaysis too far and turning something that is supposed to be fun into serious business.

I.E. "You're SoDomising the hell out of magical girl anime."

>:3
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-10-08 at 12:20.
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Old 2008-10-08, 14:36   Link #1803
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Volunteer units have a higher espirit de corps and morale compared to conscript units. That's a force multiplier right there.
Since I've agreed on the morale thing, I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish here, unless you want to say that the advantage is so huge that it is going to counteract the enormous (far greater than on Earth) advantage of pure talent as demonstrated in the MGLN universe.

Quote:
Most of the graduates of 6096 that Ricks interviewed actually expressed such statements. The overall impression Ricks received from them was that they believed that yes, America would be better off if taken over by the Corps and that they were superior to those weak, slovenly untidy civillians.
That'll make the American procedures of pointing these guys back in the right direction (at least, enough that they don't start executing such plans) very interesting to follow.

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The Javelin is a fire and forget weapon: point, lock on, and shoot. And if it's not in range, it won't lock - it relies on IIR guidance.
This means the missile complex must judge the range by itself. This seems a little difficult considering that the thing does not have a laser-ranging system, and thus the ranging will have to be conducted by that 64 by 64 FPA array.

And considering that the US Army manual does have this line:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FM3-22-37
Module 5: Target Engageability. This module provides information on how to prepare an antiarmor range card (Appendix B) and determines if a moving target is in range and engageable.
One must really wonder.

Quote:
As for conditions degrading the effective range, it's a goddamn missile. Unless you're talking about heavy smoke or the enemy deploying WP so as to defeat the thermal sights on the CLU.
They'll have to know this too, as well as thermal crossover, and the potential of heavy rain to reduce the visibility (IR penetrates further than eyesight under such conditions, but it is still far from unaffected). There is an entire appendix that discusses this in the FM as well.

Quote:
And you missed my point yet again. For the Javelin gunner, all that he wants and cares is that the missile will perform as expected - and that was indeed the attitude of Javelin gunners that Michael Yon met during his recent embed at FOB Gibraltar. When the missile misfires, he's not interested in understanding the root causes; he swaps to another missile that works because in the midst of a firefight, what he wants and needs is to be able to employ his weapon effectively. He does not need to know 100% how it works. He does not care about the little tiny intricacies like how much wiring is in it, how electrical pulses send the little signals into the computers, or how the IIR seeker works. It works in combat, that's good enough.
Seeing that the limited information makes the best SoD analysis only able to extract data on relatively superficial matters (like range and speed - the wiring of a magic round will be forever out of our reach), one must wonder the point here.

Quote:
1) I was volunteering for the Royal Malaysian Navy Reserve.
2) Hmmm, they don't like HKers protecting themselves? Then again you are under China, and previously were protected by the Brits. *shrugs* Sucks to be you. On the other hand the Malaysian armed forces are institutionally racist; if you're not Malay your chances of promotion are really really low, unless you join the Sarawak Rangers (who started out as an all-Iban jungle scout unit and are now a multiracial LRRP/commando/jungle warfare). The Navy isn't as bad as the Air Force or the Army, at least, which is some small compensation.
I suppose it is a political reliability issue (what if those darn HK guys talk about Tianammen or the Tibet situation while in the camp and all), as well as the pay being given to PLA people being nowhere as high as what we can get in HK.

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I find it rather amusing that you think I'm an American, however, despite me saying more than once that I am Malaysian.
I vaguely remember something like this, and the confusion is something for which I apologize.

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I also want to repeat here that it is intellectually dishonest, and hypocritical, to accept Strike Witches and leave it be, and not SoD Nanoha. If you're going to SoD, and not do it in a halfassed manner, you might as well go all in, no?
Resource limitations. One can only SoD so much at a time, especially if there isn't a huge team doing it. If it is not your specialty, it is IMO more honest to just say you can't judge at the moment, then to do a cheap job of it.

Quote:
And let's not forget your explanation of vapor trails in space was rather ridiculous - what kind of aircraft ejects coolant from the wingtips, from the same place where your beloved vortices form?
Question WG: Suppose that you really saw some alien space fighter and it starts putting out these vaportrail lookalikes. After confirming that you aren't hallucinating, how might you explain it?

Quote:
SoDomising: verb, The process of taking suspension of Disbelief anaysis too far and turning something that is supposed to be fun into serious business.

I.E. "You're SoDomising the hell out of magical girl anime."
Well, that's a nice word
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Old 2008-10-09, 00:08   Link #1804
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Since I've agreed on the morale thing, I'm not really sure what you are trying to accomplish here, unless you want to say that the advantage is so huge that it is going to counteract the enormous (far greater than on Earth) advantage of pure talent as demonstrated in the MGLN universe.
Hmmm, you're right, you did. I missed that.

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That'll make the American procedures of pointing these guys back in the right direction (at least, enough that they don't start executing such plans) very interesting to follow.
Such procedures would be interesting to follow, but Ricks didn't touch on that.

Quote:
This means the missile complex must judge the range by itself. This seems a little difficult considering that the thing does not have a laser-ranging system, and thus the ranging will have to be conducted by that 64 by 64 FPA array.

And considering that the US Army manual does have this line:

One must really wonder.
That's the information that I have. Also, recall that that same manual mentions that the CLU does not have proper stadia marks, just two short lines at the top of the CLU display. Contrast that with sniping or ACOG scopes that have proper stadia markings. So yes, we must wonder.

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They'll have to know this too, as well as thermal crossover, and the potential of heavy rain to reduce the visibility (IR penetrates further than eyesight under such conditions, but it is still far from unaffected). There is an entire appendix that discusses this in the FM as well.
This is pretty much covered in use of operation, ark, and is stuff they're expected to know and take into account. But you don't seem to be getting what I'm trying to say here.

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Seeing that the limited information makes the best SoD analysis only able to extract data on relatively superficial matters (like range and speed - the wiring of a magic round will be forever out of our reach), one must wonder the point here.
I've been trying to explain it to you, but since you're not getting it, despite repeated attempts, I'm going to say screw this and go and do other things.

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

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I suppose it is a political reliability issue (what if those darn HK guys talk about Tianammen or the Tibet situation while in the camp and all), as well as the pay being given to PLA people being nowhere as high as what we can get in HK.
True. Unless it's in Singapore, China or Taiwan, I've noticed that Chinese tend to stay far far away from anything involving getting shot at.

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Resource limitations. One can only SoD so much at a time, especially if there isn't a huge team doing it. If it is not your specialty, it is IMO more honest to just say you can't judge at the moment, then to do a cheap job of it.
In full honesty then, I will sit here and analyse in a half-assed manner, just to poke you . "Ark yes ark! I'll just sit here and analyse in a halfassed manner!"

Besides, ark, you seem to be doing very well in your one-man SoD effort on Nanoha.

Quote:
Question WG: Suppose that you really saw some alien space fighter and it starts putting out these vaportrail lookalikes. After confirming that you aren't hallucinating, how might you explain it?
The VF-25 is an unholy bastard child of Tomcat and Flanker And it's putting out vapor trails from the wingtip edges - you know, where your beloved vortices appear in real aircraft in the real world.

Besides, Macross is the series where a singing AI can hypnotise people and take over a military HQ/battlecarriermecha, where singing stops giant space monsters in their tracks, where people modify HOTAS controls to fit a GUITAR CONTROLLER. Crazier shit has happened in Macross before, and everyone goes with the flow there. That's normally the best way to deal with Macross. (Zero was rather headdesk inducing, as was early bits of 7).

Quote:
Well, that's a nice word
Of course you think it is, it's what you do to poor Nanoverse-tan all the time

(You were asking for it, you know )
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Old 2008-10-14, 07:01   Link #1805
al103
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2Keroko about lost logia - when Cradle emerges in Strikers there is note "even in times of ancient Belka SC was considered Lost Logia" and then about "Al Hazard" as addition to that. So there were things which in time of Old Belka Empire were normal and now considered Lost Logia + Al Hazard LL are stage up from all other LL.

2arkhangelsk about combat cyborgs:

1. What JS incedent shows is that indoctriminated CC are worst thing for army. I mean... They were programmed, then they were indoctriminated... and out of 12 we have 1 drone unusable anywhere but frontline combat, 2 loyal, 2 loyal but crazy... and 7 defectors, including one of the "old guard" - and her reasons of defection is loyality to her sister more than to her master and his ideas!
2. Any system of combat cyborg use which would prevent this problem and problems noted above by others would cost more politicaly and economicaly than programm of wild area search and recruitment of new mages, 2 year conscription for all population and reinstalment of mass-based weapons put together.
3. Though combat cyborg program would work with partially conscription based army when they would be part of reserve anyway...

Last edited by al103; 2008-10-14 at 07:40.
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:33   Link #1806
Comartemis
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Continuing from the Image Thread:

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Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
It is far more compelling for a hero to reach out and fail to grasp what he or she desires than to achieve success in every event. To always win and taste defeat in small amounts is to make a character one-dimensional and boring, not to mention thin the plot.

Protagonists don't always win.

Good ends pale in comparison to True Ends.

A story that's all sunshine and rainbows is hardly romantic. It's dull.
Where did I say anything about "all sunshine and rainbows"? I specifically mentioned "struggling against the odds" which implies trials and tribulations and lesser challenges that the hero may fail on the way to his ultimate goal. The hero who ventures forth and slays the dragon and saves the princess isn't an interesting hero. The heroine who gets near-fatally crippled and has to struggle to regain the ability to move, much less fight? Now that is much more compelling, but only if she actually wins out over this great challenge. Otherwise you just have a tragedy, and the only point to reading one of those is to depress yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Romantic? I'd say naive or pink-tinted.
Call it what you like, I wouldn't expect you of all people to understand my viewpoint.

Quote:
Cu Chulann? Died while stopping a whole army. Leonidas? Likewise.
Note the epic and heroic deaths. This is very different from the situation presented in Master, where Nanoha's story ends with a whimper instead of a bang. She deserves better than to fade into obscurity on account of a failing body. At the very least, if she has to die then let her die on the battlefield protecting those she loves, or doing something significant and appropriately heroic.
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:35   Link #1807
Sheba
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And you conveniently zapped Kenshin's example? Because this is the closest example of the situation shown in Master.
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:39   Link #1808
Comartemis
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You said something about Kenshin?

*Comar checks Sheba's post*

Damn your ninja edits, Sheba! DAAAMMMNNN THEEEEEEMMMMM!!!!

For the record, I didn't approve of Kenshin's end either, though after everything he did over the course of the series there really wasn't all that much left for him to do except pass his legacy on to Yahiko.

*EDIT*
And what exactly are you implying, Sheba? That I deliberately excluded Kenshin's example to undermine your point or something? I'm just defending my opinions of what a story should be like, not trying to impose it on others the way you seem to think I am.
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Last edited by Comartemis; 2008-10-23 at 12:59.
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Old 2008-10-23, 12:57   Link #1809
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
You said something about Kenshin?

*Comar checks Sheba's post*

Damn your ninja edits, Sheba! DAAAMMMNNN THEEEEEEMMMMM!!!!

For the record, I didn't approve of Kenshin's end either, though after everything he did over the course of the series there really wasn't all that much left for him to do except pass his legacy on to Yahiko.
This actually reminds me of something from real life.

Once, there was a young man who grew up poor, who learned to hunt with a rifle to bring in food and as a means to test his skill. He joined the Marines, and for several years was part of their competition shooting team, winning trophies and honing his skills.

Then he deployed to Vietnam, putting the skills he had nurtured while competition shooting to a different purpose, hunting Vietcong, sniping, learning fieldcraft, mentoring and developing young Marines under his leadership, creating a whole new style of warfare. Within that community he was worshiped and fiercely admired, and he was doing something he felt he had a purpose for.

Then one day he was badly wounded in a fire, suffering severe burns as he dragged 7 men out of a burning APC. After that he was rotated home, no longer allowed to take to the field; instead he would be a trainer, a teacher of Marine snipers. His wings were stripped away, but he remained active, and channeled his energies into teaching and competition shooting.

Then even that was taken away from him, by that dreadful foe called Multiple Sclerosis. He could no longer shoot, could no longer take part in the teaching that had given him such joy - even gripping a rifle was impossible for him. He was discharged from the Marines, a lonely, embittered man, a man with no wings.

Yet from that he emerged anew. Wingless he might be, but he taught others to fly. In the last decades of his life he trained tens of thousands of military and police snipers. At his funeral hundreds turned up in person to give him an honor guard for his final journey.

His wings were destroyed completely. But the legacy he left ensures he will never be forgotten.

His name is Carlos_Hathcock.

(In comparison, Nanoha has it well. She's at least physically alright, in comparison to Hathcock who suffered great pain from being burned alive in 1969 and a full blown onslaught of MS in 1979 that killed not only his career but his shooting and his mobility; for the rest of his life he was confined to a wheelchair.)

Success is all fine and well, Comar. But it's the legacy that gets remembered. Success without a lasting legacy is pointless. People remember Hathcock's successes because of his legacy.

Besides, to live is to struggle. If we don't have to strive for anything in life, it is a boring life we lead.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:10   Link #1810
Comartemis
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A good point, Goose. However....

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Besides, to live is to struggle. If we don't have to strive for anything in life, it is a boring life we lead.
*Comar screams and pulls his hair out!*

How many times do I have to say it?! I have NOTHING against heroes struggling to come out on top! It IS a boring story when the heroes get whatever they want without working for it, of that there is no doubt! But there must be a happy ending waiting for them at the end of the road. Otherwise what was the point of everything they went through?

Case in point: If I hadn't known that the successive murders in Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni didn't ultimately lead to a happy ending I would never ever have gone anywhere near it, and it is only for that Good End that I decided to watch it in the first place. By the same token I absolutely refuse to watch School Days or finish watching Evangelion, because there's no point in watching a series just to get a Bad End at the end of the road, or at least not to me. I guess others may get a kick out of a depressing story or they'd never sell any like that, but that's really not my thing.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:27   Link #1811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
A good point, Goose. However....

*Comar screams and pulls his hair out!*

How many times do I have to say it?! I have NOTHING against heroes struggling to come out on top! It IS a boring story when the heroes get whatever they want without working for it, of that there is no doubt! But there must be a happy ending waiting for them at the end of the road. Otherwise what was the point of everything they went through?
The thing I've tried to point out is that happiness can come from other sources. Hathcock lost most of that which gave him happiness, but he found new joy in teaching and shark fishing (yes, shark fishing. His family were WTFing when they found out). The same thing can apply to Nanoha; her wings may have been clipped, but that doesn't mean that happiness is eternally lost to her.

It all depends on how you interpret things, of course. You want the totally sweet hot chocolate good ending. Me, I prefer the sweetened Milo/Nescafe/Milk true ending that's happy, but has a sense of a little bit of sadness and drama in it, because that's life: until The Day comes, and so long as we remain on this imperfect world, we will experience the good and the bad.

It's the bad that makes us treasure the good.

Quote:
Case in point: If I hadn't known that the successive murders in Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni didn't ultimately lead to a happy ending I would never ever have gone anywhere near it, and it is only for that Good End that I decided to watch it in the first place. By the same token I absolutely refuse to watch School Days or finish watching Evangelion, because there's no point in watching a series just to get a Bad End at the end of the road, or at least not to me. I guess others may get a kick out of a depressing story or they'd never sell any like that, but that's really not my thing.
For me, it's more like there is joy tempered with sadness, laughter with tears... this world has dark clouds and sunny skies. I accept it all - I don't like it all, but I accept it - and I work it into my writing. My fictional worlds are of the good and the bad together. That's what gives them a sense of self, of being.

If the future is of feathers and lead
Then I am water and fire
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:35   Link #1812
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
How many times do I have to say it?! I have NOTHING against heroes struggling to come out on top!
He was illustrating a different take on "coming out on top." In the instance of that Hathcock fellow, dying in Vietnam would have gotten his name on a wall in D.C., but instead he affected hundreds of other people even after he was past his prime. Maybe it wasn't your definition of an "epic and heroic death" like gunning down a hundred Vietcong before he was shot himself, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good end.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:42   Link #1813
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Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
Mahou shoujo is SRS BZNS

He was illustrating a different take on "coming out on top." In the instance of that Hathcock fellow, dying in Vietnam would have gotten his name on a wall in D.C., but instead he affected hundreds of other people even after he was past his prime. Maybe it wasn't your definition of an "epic and heroic death" like gunning down a hundred Vietcong before he was shot himself, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good end.
Actually I was referring to someone in a similar situation to Nanoha as in that Doujin that Comar was referring to.

Also, had Hathcock not suffered the way he did, and had lived normally, it's debatable whether he would have been so admired - true, he was already admired when he was serving, but lots of that admiration in his later years came from the fact that here was a guy confined to a wheelchair, living off a measely disability pension, who'd lost the ability to do something he really loved, who was going around and teaching and training others for free.

That's a kind of legacy you don't quite get by being 100% healthy.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:42   Link #1814
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Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
Mahou shoujo is SRS BZNS

He was illustrating a different take on "coming out on top." In the instance of that Hathcock fellow, dying in Vietnam would have gotten his name on a wall in D.C., but instead he affected hundreds of other people even after he was past his prime. Maybe it wasn't your definition of an "epic and heroic death" like gunning down a hundred Vietcong before he was shot himself, but that doesn't mean it isn't a good end.
That's not what's irritating me. People keep telling me that "without struggle life is dull". I get that. It's crystal clear. I agree with it wholeheartedly. Yet people keep saying it like it needs to be repeated again and again, which just says to me that they're completely missing the point I'm trying to make.

And if you think this is serious business, then don't EVER ask arkhangelsk anything about Suspension of Disbelief, or he'll completely blow your mind.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:51   Link #1815
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Well, what I think makes Masters beautiful is that it is a sort of Phoenix tale. Nanoha sacrificed her wings for Vivio, and in return Vivio becomes a new Ace of Aces, like a fresh born phoenix rising from the ashes.
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Old 2008-10-23, 13:53   Link #1816
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Old 2008-10-23, 14:10   Link #1817
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Actually I was referring to someone in a similar situation to Nanoha as in that Doujin that Comar was referring to.

Also, had Hathcock not suffered the way he did, and had lived normally, it's debatable whether he would have been so admired - true, he was already admired when he was serving, but lots of that admiration in his later years came from the fact that here was a guy confined to a wheelchair, living off a measely disability pension, who'd lost the ability to do something he really loved, who was going around and teaching and training others for free.

That's a kind of legacy you don't quite get by being 100% healthy.
From what I can understand that this person's "legacy", was more sympathy for being a cripple... too bad he wasn't immortal or his "legacy" would never die...
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Old 2008-10-23, 14:14   Link #1818
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
A good point, Goose. However....


*Comar screams and pulls his hair out!*

How many times do I have to say it?! I have NOTHING against heroes struggling to come out on top! It IS a boring story when the heroes get whatever they want without working for it, of that there is no doubt! But there must be a happy ending waiting for them at the end of the road. Otherwise what was the point of everything they went through?
Keep yankin' that hair. Good Ends are overrated

Quote:
Case in point: If I hadn't known that the successive murders in Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni didn't ultimately lead to a happy ending I would never ever have gone anywhere near it, and it is only for that Good End that I decided to watch it in the first place. By the same token I absolutely refuse to watch School Days or finish watching Evangelion, because there's no point in watching a series just to get a Bad End at the end of the road, or at least not to me. I guess others may get a kick out of a depressing story or they'd never sell any like that, but that's really not my thing.
Actually, the Higurashi anime ends with Matsuribayashi-hen, the good ending. A PS2 exclusive arc features Miotsukushi-hen, in which Keiichi and Rika must solve everyone else's problems before addressing the main issue. 07th Expansion considers it the True Ending.

After all, nothing is gained without loss.

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Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa View Post
From what I can understand that this person's "legacy", was more sympathy for being a cripple... too bad he wasn't immortal or his "legacy" would never die...
Wait. What? WHAT?

I don't even know what to say to that. You're calling the legacy of a real life United States Marine Corps hero SYMPATHY? He doesn't need to be immortal, because his legacy already IS.

I'm so angry right now I can't even type anymore. This ignorance is shameful and disgusting.
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Old 2008-10-23, 14:27   Link #1819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivio Testarossa View Post
From what I can understand that this person's "legacy", was more sympathy for being a cripple... too bad he wasn't immortal or his "legacy" would never die...
Wait, wait, wait...

Are you saying that this man, who volunteered to put his LIFE on the line for his country and ended up severely injuring himself by pulling not one, but seven men from out of several tons of flaming steel and then still pushed forward to teach regardless of his declining health which he had no control over is honored out of SYMPATHY?!

I...I don't know how to respond to this.

It's almost like saying Nanoha's sacrifice to try and save Vivio from the Cradle and the Relic was a selfish and stupid move on her part...almost...kinda...
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Old 2008-10-23, 15:53   Link #1820
Comartemis
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Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Keep yankin' that hair. Good Ends are overrated
*Comar yanks on Tempest's hair instead*

Quote:
Actually, the Higurashi anime ends with Matsuribayashi-hen, the good ending. A PS2 exclusive arc features Miotsukushi-hen, in which Keiichi and Rika must solve everyone else's problems before addressing the main issue. 07th Expansion considers it the True Ending.
Your point? I'm not playing the game, I'm watching the anime and the anime has a good end. That's all that concerns me. If I ever get my hands on Miotsukushi-hen I'll judge whether it's better than the anime ending and accept it or discard it as I see fit. I'd do the same thing with the School Days game if I cared enough to try it, though again, I wouldn't touch the anime with a ten foot pole.

Quote:
After all, nothing is gained without loss.
I reject your statement on the grounds that we are discussing fiction and fiction has absolutely no obligation to be true to reality.

And for that matter, that's not even true in real life. You ever find loose change on the ground? I found a $20 bill blowing down the street in a stiff breeze a few years ago. Lucky~!
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Last edited by Comartemis; 2008-10-23 at 16:05.
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