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Old 2007-04-06, 15:55   Link #1
Xellos-_^
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Some thoughts on the Capture of the British Marine/Sailors by Iran.

Tell me if my thinking is on the old fashion side in this case. My thoughts is that if you are in the military, you should have fought to the death when presented with the enemy and not get meekly capture like the British sailors did and not even put up any kind of fight. They also went on television and said that they were in Iranian waters when they were capture. I am not going to debate whether they were not in Iranian water at the tiem. But as a member of the military how could they just stand there and apologize on TV like it was nothing.

Also after they got back this is what the British Navy said about the sailors and thier behavior:

"They appear to have played it by the rules, they don't appear to have put themselves into danger, others into danger, they don't appear to have given anything away," he said. "I think, in the end, they were a credit to us."

Excuse me but are those people in the military or the peace crop? Their preformance in front of Iranian television not just embarrass themselves but also IMO embarrass their country and their military.

I don't support the Irag War but I also think if you sign up for the military and get sent to a war zone. You should at least act like you are in the military and act like you have a spine instead of rolling over whenever someone point a gun at you. What happen to the days when military personal spit in the face of the enemy and dare them to do thier worst?
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Old 2007-04-06, 16:15   Link #2
SpecterVR
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Those days passed a long time ago. Given that Iran isn't exactly an enemy, I'd say they did the right thing in that situation. If they would have fought back (and subsequently got slaughtered) that would have stirred up conflict in the entire world moving in against Iran.
I'm guessing the marines aren't immature and barbaric as their reputation says.

And well, I think the days you speak of are highly romanticized anyways.

Last edited by SpecterVR; 2007-04-06 at 16:17. Reason: My arguement made...still makes no sense!
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Old 2007-04-06, 17:46   Link #3
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I don't know what the circumstances of their capture are and neither do you. What I do know is, is in modern armies especially those of the West, you are supposed to surrender when the situation is hopeless. A lot of value(believe it or not) is placed on the lives of individual soldiers and that reflects in battle tactics and rules of engagement.

They played their TV appearances like any professional soldier would. The NVA and VC would do similar antics with captured airmen. Its obvious to everyone they Iranians were providing them with a script and non compliance likely would have meant retribution. Their duty is to stay alive and as long as they don't leak valuable info to the enemy it doesn't matter what the hell they say on some obvious propoganda broadcast.

I'm kind of offended you expected these brave servicemen to just throw their lives away. Life isn't cheap.
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Old 2007-04-06, 18:05   Link #4
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Slightly off-topic, but, definitely related to the original post, and it's question about what kind of sacrifice is expected from military personnel:

On the same day the captured British soldiers were released, an attack killed 4 British soldiers in Basra. This attack was widely described as a "terrorist attack". Has the term "terrorist attack" lost all meaning? Aren't attacks on military personnel "regular" attacks, as one might expect in any armed conflict?

I completely understand describing an attack on a market or any other civilian target a "terrorist attack", but if the strike is against a military convoy???

Note: I'm not tying to condone killing people, but rather I am concerned that blurring the line between "terrorist attacks" and "military attacks" will lead to more innocent lives being lost (or seriously damaged). The whole point of having a firm distinction is to rule so-called "terrorist" attacks out, and discourage them from happening. If any and every attack is a "terrorist attack", then how do we protect civilians in a time of war?
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Old 2007-04-06, 18:55   Link #5
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Joojoobees, if there's something these Middle East wars have been about (aside from the oil resources, of course), is about making the enemy as ethically incorrect as it might come. Saying the Iraqi army makes terrorist attacks is just a media move, just to make the killing of such "terrorists" more justifiable. But, of course, I'm not blaming anyone--whenever any faction in any stance of history brought itself to such low ethical level as to provoke a war (or to maintain it), it would always try to demonize its enemy whenever possible. And blaming the Iraqi or the Iranian army for terrorist attacks is no different from the tales Roman generals told about the barbaric traditions of Gauls before starting a battle.
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Old 2007-04-06, 19:26   Link #6
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I think they did the right thing in surrendering. They weren't defending some stratagic point or anything. From what I've heard they were out-gunned, and really had no reason not to surrender. Why should they have thrown their lives away in a hopeless battle with nothing on the line?

Further, this isn't the first time this has happened. They had a pretty good idea they wouldn't be executed or held indefinately.

Die in a meaningless battle that may start a new war or surrender and save your lives and possibly avert a war? I know which I'd pick.

Though they were a bit quick to sign those confessions...
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Old 2007-04-06, 19:27   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
I don't know what the circumstances of their capture are and neither do you. What I do know is, is in modern armies especially those of the West, you are supposed to surrender when the situation is hopeless. A lot of value(believe it or not) is placed on the lives of individual soldiers and that reflects in battle tactics and rules of engagement.

They played their TV appearances like any professional soldier would. The NVA and VC would do similar antics with captured airmen. Its obvious to everyone they Iranians were providing them with a script and non compliance likely would have meant retribution. Their duty is to stay alive and as long as they don't leak valuable info to the enemy it doesn't matter what the hell they say on some obvious propoganda broadcast.

I'm kind of offended you expected these brave servicemen to just throw their lives away. Life isn't cheap.
i don't expect them to throw their life away but i do expect someone in the military who is carriing on their shoulders the HONOR of their Service and their Country to show some backbone.

Another thing that really irks is how the media is treating these like heros. I always thought military heros were the guy who manage to kill the enemy not the guys who got capture.
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Old 2007-04-06, 19:30   Link #8
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President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a <censored>. A very talented, capable, and smart but still is <censored>. Maybe he'll be happy if the Middle East dedicated a holiday in his honor. He's so self-righteous. Maybe there were some technicalities that were violated but all this is more of a show than anything else. I mean couldn't all this fuss be taken care of professionally and diplomatically? I'm just happy that they didn't declare the death of Anna Nicole Smith as another example of the corruption of the Amercan soul. By making all this flash and bang they're just showing that they're no different from those they are criticizing.
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Last edited by WhiteWings; 2007-04-06 at 19:35. Reason: Edit
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Old 2007-04-06, 19:42   Link #9
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Every man dies but not every man truly lives!
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Old 2007-04-06, 19:56   Link #10
Red Herring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i don't expect them to throw their life away but i do expect someone in the military who is carriing on their shoulders the HONOR of their Service and their Country to show some backbone.

Another thing that really irks is how the media is treating these like heros. I always thought military heros were the guy who manage to kill the enemy not the guys who got capture.
You mean go down in a blaze of glory. LOL leave that for the movies man, this is real life. NOTHING could be gained by reckless displays of manhood in this situation and in the eyes of any logical thinker if these troopers had stupidly acted with their d!cks instead of protocol they'd be pushing daisies right now and they'd be seen as foolish. We don't live in the wild west or feudal Japan dude. Nobody's honor was at stake here, only the lives of these men were at stake.
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:11   Link #11
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Quote:
You mean go down in a blaze of glory. LOL leave that for the movies man, this is real life. NOTHING could be gained by reckless displays of manhood in this situation and in the eyes of any logical thinker if these troopers had stupidly acted with their d!cks instead of protocol they'd be pushing daisies right now and they'd be seen as foolish. We don't live in the wild west or feudal Japan dude. Nobody's honor was at stake here, only the lives of these men were at stake.
I couldn't agree more. What, do you want more stupid losses? Would you have given your life if you'd been in their place?

Come on, we all may sound as honorable and mighty as we want while we sit in our cozy PC chairs, typing away grandiloquent off-earth phrases. Now, I want to see you sitting there, with a gun pointed directly at your head.

Quote:
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a <censored>. A very talented, capable, and smart but still is <censored>. Maybe he'll be happy if the Middle East dedicated a holiday in his honor. He's so self-righteous.
Well, what would you do if you had the armies of many countries, one of them known for starting wars wherever they can for no actual logic reason (not that any logic reason can justify war, anyways), right at your door, like they were ready to pull the goddamn trigger? I would certainly feel intimidated, now the thing is, wouldn't you?
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:21   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I couldn't agree more. What, do you want more stupid losses? Would you have given your life if you'd been in their place?

Come on, we all may sound as honorable and mighty as we want while we sit in our cozy PC chairs, typing away grandiloquent off-earth phrases. Now, I want to see you sitting there, with a gun pointed directly at your head.



Well, what would you do if you had the armies of many countries, one of them known for starting wars wherever they can for no actual logic reason (not that any logic reason can justify war, anyways), right at your door, like they were ready to pull the goddamn trigger? I would certainly feel intimidated, now the thing is, wouldn't you?
I didn't volunteer to join the military. For whatever reason they did.
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:27   Link #13
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Quote:
I didn't volunteer to join the military. For whatever reason they did.
But even like that, you think their final mission is to die without a second thought? Echoing Red Herring, where are we, feudal Japan? The samurai have been long gone, man. Do you really really think that your country wants a regular soldier, any regular soldier, not to think twice before committing suicide for the nation? Nice country you live in, just throwing around people's lives like that.

Soldiers are people. They're not killing machines. They're people.
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:30   Link #14
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
But even like that, you think their final mission is to die without a second thought? Echoing Red Herring, where are we, feudal Japan? The samurai have been long gone, man. Do you really really think that your country wants a regular soldier, any regular soldier, not to think twice before committing suicide for the nation? Nice country you live in.

He who runs lives to fight another day.

except in their case, they wouldn't be fighting antoher day. They will honorablely discharge, a fine reward for getting capture and caving in to the enemy.
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:31   Link #15
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Quote:
except in their case, they wouldn't be fighting antoher day. They will honorablely discharge, a fine reward for getting capture and caving in to the enemy.
I edited my post, as it wasn't what I really wanted to say. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 2007-04-06, 20:57   Link #16
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Say whatever you want of this, but between saving face and saving lives, I think lives are more important.
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Old 2007-04-06, 21:02   Link #17
Sassarai
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I dunno man but after seeing the movie 300 I think its the other way around.

you gotta let them know " They may take our lives but they will never take our FREEDOM!!"


besides most of the time when you're captured you either get tortured, killed, raped, or all the above. So might as well try to live by fighting rather then getting captured.
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Old 2007-04-06, 23:19   Link #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
I dunno man but after seeing the movie 300 I think its the other way around.

you gotta let them know " They may take our lives but they will never take our FREEDOM!!"


besides most of the time when you're captured you either get tortured, killed, raped, or all the above. So might as well try to live by fighting rather then getting captured.
Life is not a movie. Stop pretending it is.

It's times like this I cry for the ignorance of people.
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Old 2007-04-07, 07:43   Link #19
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Because they had a brain and could add 1 + 1 and see that a military conflict is not something any party would benefit from. Their decision would affect more than just their lives.
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Old 2007-04-07, 10:08   Link #20
Sassarai
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lol aww man my message got deleted.
Okay okay you win pacifists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ACKzW_GQ8
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