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Old 2007-04-07, 10:36   Link #21
-KarumA-
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when i saw it ont he news first Iran gave me the kind of impression that they were acting hostile to the soldiers and England then all the sudden all is well.. everyone smilles and they get to go home.. but there was something bothering me about it...

it all looked too good to be real.. the way they said that they had been threated kind and gentle.. it was something about they way they looked into the camera and the way they said everything.. im not going to jump to onclusions but to me there was more going non that wasnt truthfully said... it reminded me a little of Sadam's many speeches in which he would gently pat a kid on th head while you could see fear int heir eyes yet they tried to smile...
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Old 2007-04-07, 12:39   Link #22
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
lol aww man my message got deleted.
Okay okay you win pacifists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ACKzW_GQ8
That guy needs some perspective on this. If they had fought back, they would be dead and the UK and US would at this very moment be at war with Iran. They were outgunned, and we don't know if they we in a position to run. Surrender was the best choice they could have made if retreat was impossible. This isn't a movie, it's real life. In real life you don't get bonus points for dieing a heroic death. You're just dead.

Further, this notion that they should have resisted cooperation with their captors is a bunch of bullshit. Maybe they shouldn't have been so quick to make those statements, but they would have been forced to eventually anyway. People seem to have it in their head that the only thing you give your captors is name, rank, and serial number like in the movies, but in the real world you need to give them more information to stay alive.

Let's remember, the confessions and statements made were essentially meaningless. Nothing was lost because of them. It was propaganda they were being forced to read by the Iranians, and anyone who can view the thing with any objectivity can see it.

During the first Gulf war, the Iraqis forced captured US and British pilots to say propaganda denouncing the invasion as unjust. Were they cowards too?
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Old 2007-04-07, 13:06   Link #23
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Were they cowards too?
Pretty much.
Thats exactly the point, if you value your life so much - what are you doing in the army ?
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Old 2007-04-07, 14:03   Link #24
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Well, I think that we should simply go back to isolationism like we did in WW2.
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Old 2007-04-07, 14:15   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
During the first Gulf war, the Iraqis forced captured US and British pilots to say propaganda denouncing the invasion as unjust. Were they cowards too?
If they are that afraid of death why did they join the military?
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Old 2007-04-07, 14:20   Link #26
Kamui4356
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Originally Posted by Karnot View Post
Pretty much.
Thats exactly the point, if you value your life so much - what are you doing in the army ?
See this is my point exactly, you don't get it. If you're captured, and they want you to read a statement, you WILL read that statement. The only question is how long it'll take, and what they have to do to make you. It's not like you're revealing classified information, so there's little point in resisting too much. Give your captors some crumbs, and you might get out of it alive. Like I said, it's real life, not a movie. You don't get hero points for throwing your life away meaninglessly.

And since when does joining the army make you nothing but cannon fodder? Soldiers are people too.
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Old 2007-04-07, 15:35   Link #27
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Originally Posted by -KarumA- View Post
im not going to jump to onclusions but to me there was more going non that wasnt truthfully said...
What makes me suspicious is that the Iranians claim the British were in Iranian waters, and then the British government responds that the boat was not in Iranian waters WHEN it was captured. Those are not contradictory claims. Did the British boat transgress the Iranian border, get spotted, and then flee back to Iraqi waters? According to reports from the British government, the boat was .5 kilometers inside Iraqi waters. How long does it take a boat to get .5 kilometers? I can WALK that far in a few minutes.
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Old 2007-04-07, 15:36   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
If they are that afraid of death why did they join the military?
Soldiers aren't supposed to die. It is a standard to surrender when you can't win.
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Old 2007-04-07, 20:30   Link #29
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Look, people, stop this. Stop treating people that fight for a nation (as awkward and full of controversy that concept is) like goddamn cannon fodder. They have lives, too, outside the army. Their duty is not to die, but to stay alive. Like it has been said, you don't get "hero points" and you don't go to fucking Valhalla if you leave yourself to die. What are we? Fucking Norse? Come on, people, we can do better than this.
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Old 2007-04-08, 01:04   Link #30
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If they had fought back, they would have lost, and Iran and the UK (and therefor US) would likely be at war, or at least threatening such, while world powers would choose sides. If that hadn't happened, the UK would have at least lost a lot of face against a very devious enemy.

And there would be no one to stand up and testify that Iran was in the wrong.

Even if they'd had the ability to fight back and win, Iran would have used it as an excuse.

The people in the Iranian administration who set this up had it planned very well. Every angle was a win. Or so they thought.

The confessions backfired when it came to international views (although I'm sure it went over very well domestically).

Even without those confessions making them look worse, the ploy was obvious enough that even their traditional allies wouldn't back them up by making grumbling noises.

The Spartans who all died didn't die in vain. They accomplished their purpose. As dramatic as a valiant death seems, it's worthless if it accomplishes nothing. They did the right thing.
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Old 2007-04-08, 01:17   Link #31
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The Spartans who all died didn't die in vain. They accomplished their purpose.
You're dismissing 2500 years of technological and human evolution over a sense of pride and achievement that doesn't really apply to today's standards. Today, there are other ways of solving things. Unluckily, in the minds and possibilities of Spartans, there were none. Those were other times. The Norse thought everyone who went into battle won, whether they died or stayed alive. Now, we know people don't wanna die. That people have lives. That there's no Valhalla. It doesn't achieve anything even if those soldiers become martyrs in today's world.

What the heck, let's all bomb ourselves. We're going to Allah's hands faster if we do so. Or let's die for a stupid country that won't care about you, so that we can be at the side of the almighty Father and say hi to Jesus that way.
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Old 2007-04-08, 01:43   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
You're dismissing 2500 years of technological and human evolution over a sense of pride and achievement that doesn't really apply to today's standards. Today, there are other ways of solving things. Unluckily, in the minds and possibilities of Spartans, there were none. Those were other times. The Norse thought everyone who went into battle won, whether they died or stayed alive. Now, we know people don't wanna die. That people have lives. That there's no Valhalla. It doesn't achieve anything even if those soldiers become martyrs in today's world.

What the heck, let's all bomb ourselves. We're going to Allah's hands faster if we do so. Or let's die for a stupid country that won't care about you, so that we can be at the side of the almighty Father and say hi to Jesus that way.
I was agreeing with you. The Spartans made a LAST DITCH effort that succeeded.

There's no point in dying in battle unless there are no alternatives and you stand a chance at succeeding at whatever you are attempting.
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Old 2007-04-08, 02:00   Link #33
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Red face Don't dismiss other people's religions

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
The Norse thought everyone who went into battle won, whether they died or stayed alive. Now, we know people don't wanna die. That people have lives. That there's no Valhalla. It doesn't achieve anything even if those soldiers become martyrs in today's world.
Technically we don't know that there's no Valhalla. It is just a supposition without any evidence to back it up.
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Old 2007-04-08, 02:46   Link #34
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The big difference between the Spartans and this is that the Spartans, like the rest of Greece, were under threat of Persian domination. The old persians were not as bad as they are shown in the movies, in fact the Achemenid perisan empire was fair and tolerant to its conquered peoples. However, the Greeks simply did not want their rule because people do not like to be dominated by others and that is a perfectly honorable and justifyable reason to fight and even die.

That said, the story of the 300 spartans, or the 47 ronin, or Baker's dozen or the f*ckin DIRTY DOZEN doesn't apply here AT ALL. I once again say that these British troopers did the right thing and it is NOT A SOLDIER'S DUTY TO RUSH TO DEATH. There wouldnt have been any glory or honor in their death, just a bunch of dead men for no reason just like our boys who perished in Vietnam and in iraq right now.
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Old 2007-04-08, 04:43   Link #35
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The main point here is that the captured personnel followed MoD procedure. Britain isn't at war with Iran, the patrol had nothing to do with operations in Iraq, it was ebforcing a UN ban on the import of certain materials. The whole inspection was a routine action, in fact it had become so routine that they weren't even covered by helicoptor anymore, which is why the Iranians had the opportunity to capture them.

In this situation, surrendering was absolutely the right thing to do. Shooting it out with the Iranians, even if they won, would have been a huge mistake politically. And you can bet that officers of the British armed forces are well aware of the political tripwires in areas as sensitive as the Gulf.

As for the 'confessions', again there is absolutely nothing wrong with those. They know that nobody is going to believe them, there is absolutely no point in antagonising your captures by not making them. Unlike witholding vital information in times of war, which this wasn't.

Besides, they should have known that there was very little chance of anything really bad happening to them. The Iranians know that the US is just praying for an excuse to go in and bomb their nuclear program facitities into rubble, and the Iranians are not going to give them that excuse.

Frankly, the whole thing to me just cried out of one faction in the Iranian government seeing an opportunity to make a gesture and dumping it on the whole country. You only have to look at the conflicting statements coming from the various branches of Government to see that there was no overall plan of action there.

And finally, remember this. A soldiers duty is not to die for his country, it's to carry out the orders he has been given. And you can't do that if you commit suicide...
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Old 2007-04-08, 09:48   Link #36
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Technically we don't know that there's no Valhalla. It is just a supposition without any evidence to back it up.
Yeah, I know that. But how many Norse myth true believers are out here? Anyone? Come on, I know you're out there!

And the other stuff I said about religions is because they piss me so much when messing with people's ideas and leading them to do stupid things like suicide bombing.
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Old 2007-04-09, 01:55   Link #37
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I'm just glad the whole thing managed to defuse itself. I don't doubt that this COULD have turned into yet another war in the region. Whether cooler heads prevailed, or someone chickened out, I'm just glad things didn't get any worse.
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Old 2007-04-09, 10:11   Link #38
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It might be just a matter of time when the war begins in Iran anyway. IMO, US is already giving an eyeful to the place and knowing how warsome they are, they might push for another slaughter of civilians in the near future.

I believe those captured guys did what they could much like the Iranian prisoners are doing in the prisons of US. They probably did pretty well too, since -unlike the iranians- they didn't get tortured for years, if at all. Which side is to blame... Well, no idea. I'm sure both sides are as apt to lie, even though I would seriously question the presence of foreign soldiers so far from their own turf.
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Old 2007-04-09, 10:38   Link #39
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The UN should keep a tighter leash on the US...

They only pick on developing nations...

How would the US react to the threat of war with developed nations?

If the US steps out of line again, I think that the UN should do something about it... o-o
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Old 2007-04-09, 13:36   Link #40
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If the US steps out of line again, I think that the UN should do something about it...
Yeah, that isn't going to happen, because the UN doesn't have anything to back it up. There have been plenty of times in the past that the UN blustered about how the US committed some violation of international law or another (take the mining of the Nicaraguan harbors, for example), but nothing ever became of it. The US is holding every freaking card in that deck, plus they have an extra deck full of aces up their sleeve, so you can just forget it.
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