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Old 2007-04-12, 14:26   Link #21
WanderingKnight
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IMO, weak male leads in harem are a hook to lure the male-otaku fandom in need of socializing with women, since they can somehow relate to the weak/unlucky guy. Or at least they were back in the 2000 or something. Now, IMO, the harem trend seems to be wearing off a little (or it may be that I haven't really watched anything truly harem after Love Hina--which I loved BTW . I'm ruling Kanon out, anyways, so...).
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Old 2007-04-12, 16:36   Link #22
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Let's take a little trip back in history

Moroboshi Ataru(Urusei Yatsura): The first character to dare proclaim his desire to construct a harem openly, and many times. Ended up messing around with almost as many women as the number claimed by Wilt Chamberlain. He possess highest hit point value ever for any anime characters ( He probably will survive direct contact with tons of antimatter ) Wuss? No way. Likeable? Depends. He is the most lecherous being in the universe. Yet, he somehow manages to impress girls with his rare moment of sincerity and kindness. Still, most otaku will be offended if you compare him to Ataru, for it is hard to get lower than that.

Saeba Ryo(City Hunter): The character who took the torch of construction of a harem from Ataru. He also gets involved with dozens of women, but fails to make most of them stay around him. Unlike Ataru, he really is competent, having incredible skills in many area, and one of the most dangerous fighter in his world. Wuss? He appeared in SaiGar! Likeable? Again depends. He appears lecherous, but he is definitely one of the smartest person in the City Hunter world.
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Old 2007-04-12, 17:00   Link #23
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I blame the Love Hina for the entirty of the Loser Harem Male Lead. Before Love Hina, the harem male leads do have some redeming features besides just being nice guys.

Tenchi Masaki - l likeable regular guy who can destroy the universe and as of GXP at least seems to have his harem under control.

Makoto (EL Hazard, tv/oav) - Both versions Makoto is protryal as a likeable guy, straight A studen (mad scientist in TV) and got enough athletic ability to win a school race.

Gene Starwind (Outlaw Star) - Kinda like a ver of Ryo Sabea in space. Not a brain surgeon but good at tactics, good backup in a fight. Likeable and defintely not a loser.

Then Love Hina came you guys see the result of that with every harem show. losers whose only redeeming value is being nice guy.
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Old 2007-04-12, 17:50   Link #24
asaqe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
IMO, weak male leads in harem are a hook to lure the male-otaku fandom in need of socializing with women, since they can somehow relate to the weak/unlucky guy. Or at least they were back in the 2000 or something. Now, IMO, the harem trend seems to be wearing off a little (or it may be that I haven't really watched anything truly harem after Love Hina--which I loved BTW . I'm ruling Kanon out, anyways, so...).
Screw the otakus who wants to relate, I need my dose of macho. We should be living up to higher standards, not lower ones!
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Old 2007-04-12, 18:20   Link #25
npal
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^ That is not the higher standard, just your higher standard. I'd rather have people being nice than being macho. It helps society in the long run. There's too much macho going around anyway.

The problem with harem leads isn't them being nice, it's them being totally spineless. There are a number of harem leads that were nice without being wishy-washy about which girl to choose out of their harem legion. The other real problem is that the adaptations try to give equal screentime and chances to all the girls, therefore usually involve the harem lead in various situations with all of them and he responds the same, as if they have no preference whatsoever. That's not being nice, that's not having a character. For some people Keitaro seems like a loser, but at least he wasn't that wishy-washy about who of all the girls he liked. If you ask me, the new adapted Yuuichi was worse in that regard. He was playing house with all the girls (minus one), could have hooked up with all the girls (minus 2), but somehow got one specific girl out of the blue, when there were more valid candidates based on the interactions.

The original To Heart can't be considered harem since it's Hiroyuki accompanied by Akari going around solving everything and turns into some sort of triangle at some point.

ToHeart 2: Ok, the guy should be able to say No and get his priorities straight if he has any. He suffers from the typical "let's involve him with all the girls" adaptation syndrome. They should have followed the original ToHeart 's lead in the regard.

Your best way to find decent leads is picking a non-harem series.

To answer the original question, harem leads are the people on the end of the spectrum (with macho/playboys being on the other end) thrown into a totally different setting than the one they know (probably perceived as paradise). Otherwise, they are pretty average. And to those who don't believe so, most adolescents are divided in a number of categories and the nice, socially shy individual is a well-known (and usually looked down on) category.
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Old 2007-04-12, 18:26   Link #26
CeDeR
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i agree we need a character that takes advantage of every single girl that likes him...like in real life
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Old 2007-04-12, 18:33   Link #27
npal
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I rest my case. TV is better of with the nice wimps.
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Old 2007-04-12, 18:44   Link #28
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Originally Posted by npal View Post
^ That is not the higher standard, just your higher standard. I'd rather have people being nice than being macho. It helps society in the long run. There's too much macho going around anyway.

The problem with harem leads isn't them being nice, it's them being totally spineless. There are a number of harem leads that were nice without being wishy-washy about which girl to choose out of their harem legion. The other real problem is that the adaptations try to give equal screentime and chances to all the girls, therefore usually involve the harem lead in various situations with all of them and he responds the same, as if they have no preference whatsoever. That's not being nice, that's not having a character. For some people Keitaro seems like a loser, but at least he wasn't that wishy-washy about who of all the girls he liked. If you ask me, the new adapted Yuuichi was worse in that regard. He was playing house with all the girls (minus one), could have hooked up with all the girls (minus 2), but somehow got one specific girl out of the blue, when there were more valid candidates based on the interactions.

The original To Heart can't be considered harem since it's Hiroyuki accompanied by Akari going around solving everything and turns into some sort of triangle at some point.

ToHeart 2: Ok, the guy should be able to say No and get his priorities straight if he has any. He suffers from the typical "let's involve him with all the girls" adaptation syndrome. They should have followed the original ToHeart 's lead in the regard.

Your best way to find decent leads is picking a non-harem series.

To answer the original question, harem leads are the people on the end of the spectrum (with macho/playboys being on the other end) thrown into a totally different setting than the one they know (probably perceived as paradise). Otherwise, they are pretty average. And to those who don't believe so, most adolescents are divided in a number of categories and the nice, socially shy individual is a well-known (and usually looked down on) category.
That said i like to see some other redeemable feature other then he is a nice guy.

Tenchi can destory the universe
Makoto has a brain
Gene Starwind/Ryo Saeba is great with a gun


Quote:
Originally Posted by CeDeR View Post
i agree we need a character that takes advantage of every single girl that likes him...like in real life
You will love School Days then

*starts sharpen some knives
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Old 2007-04-12, 18:48   Link #29
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I don't know why the reform needs to end with male leads. How about some female ones that don't act like children?
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Old 2007-04-12, 18:52   Link #30
Xellos-_^
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I don't know why the reform needs to end with male leads. How about some female ones that don't act like children?
Well unlike the male lead, their is a lot more variety of female leads.
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Old 2007-04-12, 18:57   Link #31
npal
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
That said i like to see some other redeemable feature other then he is a nice guy.

Tenchi can destory the universe
Makoto has a brain
Gene Starwind/Ryo Saeba is great with a gun
The point was that being nice is a very good redeeming value and should be encouraged. It's the rest of the adaptation that belittles this trait and makes the character look like a total wimp. I doubt a real life character whose only redeeming value is being nice is as indecisive and as equally romantically involved with every girl he meets. You can see that this is indeed the case when the harem adaptation is dropped in favor of a normal romance or triangle, where the character retains his nice trait but he's not an indecisive wimp.

And those are redeeming traits??
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Old 2007-04-12, 19:01   Link #32
Xellos-_^
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And those are redeeming traits??
Don't you know able to destory the universe comes in very handy when trying to get your mail-in-rebate
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Old 2007-04-12, 19:04   Link #33
npal
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Well, I was expecting redeeming personality traits
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Old 2007-04-12, 19:11   Link #34
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Im waiting one day, that they would make an adventure anime where the male lead was a loser who fails at everything,unappreciated and hated for all the good things he tried to do. He wanders through the lands,fights with bandits,did self thinking and trains alone till madness until he makes a return and starts fighting all the really powerful monsters. At the sametime meet female adventurers.

or

You make a harem anime about two male leads who are friends. Both opposite from each other.So the viewers with different taste can see different guys from time to time.

In To Heart 2. I liked the red hair guy, friend of the male lead, too bad hes not getting much spotlight.
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Old 2007-04-12, 19:32   Link #35
mangatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
Nope, theyre all bums.
Something tells me you either did not watch all of these kinds of anime or you didn't read the descriptions Daniel put...


My point is, "Wuss" is kind of the wrong word to use. When defining these male leads in harem, one could use the word "insignificant", not "wuss". Ask some random grown working man out there in the USA what "wuss" means, and he would say something along the lines of "Total weakling". Weakling as in lack of physical strength, not being spineless.

And I prefer no one feeds me wiki links or slang dictionary links about what "wuss" means, something tells me this generation is twisting the meanings of words these days. What happened to people who were educated back in the 80's/90's.....

And, to the topic, I agree with Daniel on the descriptions, anyone who has seen those anime would agree as well.

And remember, there are no normal guys in anime. And comparing anime guys to real life people is entirely unplausible. If there are normal guys in anime what's the point in watching? Might as well watch your neighbor's life if that's the case....

That dark side in me tells me even the meaning of "normal" is being twisted these days lol...don't tell me the definition of "harem" is being twisted as well lol...

What happened to the days when people would actually enjoy anime? I guess I'll follow the creator(?) of BPS and paraphrase:

"It's the fansubbers/fansub viewers who ruin everything"

Dude, Jello, why are you pushing School Days on everyone? What happened to your yuri dreams?
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Old 2007-04-12, 19:36   Link #36
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mangatron View Post
Something tells me you either did not watch all of these kinds of anime or you didn't read the descriptions Daniel put...


My point is, "Wuss" is kind of the wrong word to use. When defining these male leads in harem, one could use the word "insignificant", not "wuss". Ask some random grown working man out there in the USA what "wuss" means, and he would say something along the lines of "Total weakling". Weakling as in lack of physical strength, not being spineless.

And I prefer no one feeds me wiki links or slang dictionary links about what "wuss" means, something tells me this generation is twisting the meanings of words these days. What happened to people who were educated back in the 80's/90's.....

And, to the topic, I agree with Daniel on the descriptions, anyone who has seen those anime would agree as well.

And remember, there are no normal guys in anime. And comparing anime guys to real life people is entirely unplausible. If there are normal guys in anime what's the point in watching? Might as well watch your neighbor's life if that's the case....

That dark side in me tells me even the meaning of "normal" is being twisted these days lol...don't tell me the definition of "harem" is being twisted as well lol...

What happened to the days when people would actually enjoy anime? I guess I'll follow the creator(?) of BPS and paraphrase:

"It's the fansubbers/fansub viewers who ruin everything"

Dude, Jello, why are you pushing School Days on everyone? What happened to your yuri dreams?
Yo Lolitron,

I am not pushing Schools Days but it just happen to fit the description of wht a couple of the poster here want.

Nothing happen to my Yrui Dream, Schools day can botha bloody and Yuro ending. It is not non-exclusive.
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Old 2007-04-12, 19:37   Link #37
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one word...

all mains are men

end...

xo xo
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Old 2007-04-12, 19:41   Link #38
mangatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Yo Lolitron,

I am not pushing Schools Days but it just happen to fit the description of wht a couple of the poster here want.

Nothing happen to my Yrui Dream, Schools day can botha bloody and Yuro ending. It is not non-exclusive.
lol Jello, if there's some blood, that means someone went psycho

And two psycho's or one psycho one unsycho pairing doesn't feel right lol

If, ok IF I go along with you, might as well go with the "He gets dumped, both girls make out" kind of yuri ending. I don't see him dying and them living to tell the tale

There's cops in anime too lol, Makoto's body can't stay hidden for long

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one word...

all mains are men

end...

xo xo

Word
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Old 2007-04-12, 20:03   Link #39
Honey_and_Cleaver
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Originally Posted by mangatron View Post
And remember, there are no normal guys in anime. And comparing anime guys to real life people is entirely unplausible. If there are normal guys in anime what's the point in watching? Might as well watch your neighbor's life if that's the case....
Actually the harem animes male lead are normal guys. The makers wanted to potray something neutral, thats why its always ," (name) is a normal school boy/average school kid/ordinary guy, one day ends up in an island with girls, or he discovered a meteorite that was actually a space ship with the most beautiful girls in the universe" . See. Thats why male leads in harems are boring.
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Old 2007-04-12, 20:28   Link #40
holyman282
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Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
Actually the harem animes male lead are normal guys. The makers wanted to potray something neutral, thats why its always ," (name) is a normal school boy/average school kid/ordinary guy, one day ends up in an island with girls, or he discovered a meteorite that was actually a space ship with the most beautiful girls in the universe" . See. Thats why male leads in harems are boring.
I guess normal male leads getting an army of girls falling for him appeals to the average joe who fantasises what the male lead in the anime is doing....

The creation of an average joe male lead to relate with normal people is all good and fine, except in certain situations where the females make advances on him and he chickens out, that just makes the average people go, "hey that's not what average people would do! i would of held her and made out with her!".

Really they try to relate it to average males, but fail at it...
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