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Old 2009-08-04, 04:17   Link #41
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
...Ok. Lucky Star, K-On, Haruhi Suzumiya, and Love Hina! are all meant for guys?

I find that very hard to believe... especially in the case of Lucky Star and K-On. Lucky Star and K-On are almost entirely devoid of prominent male characters - who exactly is the touch-point for guys watching these shows?
They are targeted at otaku audiences, which are predominately male. I believe there are plenty of statistics to show the demographic mix of this particular audience segment.

Konata herself famously observed in one episode of Lucky Star that if female characters in video games had boyfriends, no one would play the games. By extension, the same comment could apply to the female cast of Lucky Star.
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Old 2009-08-04, 04:22   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
They are targeted at otaku audiences, which are predominately male.
That it may enjoy a predominantly male audience due to an indirect factor like this... Ok, yes, I can see that. But it's because it's meant for otaku, not because it's geared towards guys in general.

Most guys I know would never even consider watching a show like K-On, Lucky Star, or Love Hina! Most people like to have a same-gender touch-point in any entertainment that they're watching.

Edit: That... comment by Konata is quite odd, and not at all true. Typically, playable female characters in video games do have boyfriends, or at least romantic interests. I think of Tales of Symphonia, Tales of the Abyss, the Final Fantasy games, the Suikoden games, etc... I've never seen a Final Fantasy game with out a romance, and Final Fantasy sells incredibly well.
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Old 2009-08-04, 04:54   Link #43
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Most guys I know would never even consider watching a show like K-On, Lucky Star, or Love Hina! Most people like to have a same-gender touch-point in any entertainment that they're watching.
Most guys aren't otaku nor are they interested in anime. By the same comparison, "most guys" don't like watching American Football either. I suspect maybe not even half the American guys do.

K-On! and Lucky Star are technically seinen, that is to say, marketed towards a demographic of older-than-teen males. They're more exactly of the vaguely defined "moe" genre which is primarily a part of the things targeted towards the otaku segment of the seinen demographic. And while somebody unfamiliar with these two can mistake them for chic flicks, Love Hina...I'm sorry, but one has to be very slow not to believe that it's targeted at guys. Boobs, butts, and nekked chicks don't seem like guy's entertainment to you?

Your logic is pretty much the opposite of other people's reality here. Who do you think the yaoi genre, of pretty, pretty boys making love to each other, famously in worlds devoid of meaningful female characters in all but a few select examples, is targeted to? Guys?

None of this stops a girl or a younger guy from enjoying K-On!, Lucky Star, or Love Hina, nor foreigners like us for that matter; but it's not a good idea to be mistaking moe otaku flicks for mainstream female entertainment in Japan.
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Old 2009-08-04, 05:18   Link #44
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If you're going to target a show at a particular gender, and it's not outright porn, then it's a generally good idea for the show to have a same-gender touch-point.

The entire reason why there's a Robin (for Batman) is because DC comics felt that while younger males admired Batman, the comic/show lacked a character that they could easily identify with and relate to (Batman himself being a big, burly adult man). Hence, the creation of Robin as a same-age touch-point for younger male fans of Batman. Jimmy Olsen exists for much the same reason.

Generally speaking, fiction aimed towards a particular demographic has a touch-point character in it for that demographic - so, if your particular demographic is teenage males, for example, then you would want a same-age/same-gender touch-point for teenage males.

Who is the same-gender touch-point for males in Lucky Star? Or in K-On?

With Haruhi, there's at least Kyon and Koizumi - with Love Hina!, I suppose you could live vicariously through the doormat male harem anime lead, as distasteful an idea as that is to me personally...

But Lucky Star and K-On have virtually no male characters to speak of.

And they're not hentai, or even particularly ecchi.

Quote:

Boobs, butts, and nekked chicks don't seem like guy's entertainment to you?
Sure it does. Lucky Star and K-On don't exactly emphasize boobs, butts, and nekked chicks. The very art style for these two shows runs completely contrary to trying to emphasizing boobs, butts, and nekkid chicks.

I mean, how is a show done in a cutsey (as opposed to sexy) art style, with virtually nothing but female characters in it, more for guys than girls? If guys like it, fine - but to say it's for guys...

Rather strange, imo.
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Old 2009-08-04, 05:29   Link #45
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"Stay away from my yuri you women! I want to have wild fantasy too like you on yaoi!!!"

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Old 2009-08-04, 05:37   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If you're going to target a show at a particular gender, and it's not outright porn, then it's a generally good idea for the show to have a touch-point.
For you, I guess, and nothing wrong with a personal opinion like that. What's wrong is that you believe it to be true for the rest of the otaku demographic...which it isn't.

Also, fine, "shounen-ai." No sex no buttlove maybe not even a kiss. Guess who read them?

Quote:
The entire reason why there's a Robin (for Batman) is because DC comics felt that while younger males admired Batman, the comic/show lacked a character that they could easily identify with and relate to (Batman himself being a big, burly adult man). Hence, the creation of Robin as a same-age touch-point for younger male fans of Batman. Jimmy Olsen exists for much the same reason.
Batman and Robin isn't Japanese subculture animation. Not that anybody actually pays much attention to Robin in Batman anyway. Where's the little spunky dude in the best Batman movie ever, The Dark Knight?

Note: this by no means indicate my personal opinion of Robin. By all means I loved the guy in the Teen Titans cartoon.

Quote:
Generally speaking, fiction aimed towards a particular demography has a touch-point character in it for that demographic - so, if you're particular demographic is teenage males, for example, then you would want a same-age/same-gender touch-point for the fans.

Who is the same-gender touch-point in Lucky Star? Or in K-On?
You're asking the wrong question. What do people watch these shows for? Cute girls acting cute. It's called moe, or as the Japanese call it, bishoujo. They're feel good flicks. Aww she's so cute, I want to take her home kind of deal. Where have you been in the anime scene all these years to miss the moe craze?

A point also needs to be noted that female audiences -- non-otaku ones anyway -- are put off by the bishoujo stuff. They don't like it. They aren't identifying with Konata and her indulgent otaku blubber or Yui and her clumsy butt.

Your restriction -- that for a fiction to be targeted towards a demographic it needs a role model of that demographic -- is extremely restrictive. Yes, it's true in many cases. But also, it has many exceptions, so much that's it's not really a rule anymore. This is one of these exceptions. Identification with characters is certainly one of the ways for someone to enjoy an entertainment piece. It's far from the only way.

Quote:
Sure it does. Lucky Star and K-On don't exactly emphasize boobs, butts, and nekked chicks. The very art style for these two shows runs completely contrary to trying to emphasize boobs, butts, and nekkid chicks.
Reread my sentence again, I was speaking about Love Hina. As for the other two shows, see above.

Quote:
I mean, how is a show done in a cutsey (as opposed to sexy) art style, with virtually nothing but female characters in it, more for guys than girls? If guys like it, fine - but to say it's for guys...
Ever heard of the cute vs. hot debate?
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Old 2009-08-04, 05:56   Link #47
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The one I am tired of is that if you are a boy in High School, you either pay no attention to your genitals at all or you hate them at a religious level.

And the other one I see is that if you are a short girl in school, you seem to have a love and devotion for a taller girl for little to no reason.
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Old 2009-08-04, 13:11   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
For you, I guess, and nothing wrong with a personal opinion like that. What's wrong is that you believe it to be true for the rest of the otaku demographic...which it isn't.
I never said that I believe it to be true for otaku. But - this is just my opinion here - the label you apply to a show should hold true for a general audience, and be of value to a general audience in a face value way.

Would a general audience look at Lucky Star or K-On and think "This is for guys"?

Quote:
You're asking the wrong question. What do people watch these shows for? Cute girls acting cute.
The same could be said for Cardcaptor Sakura. Or Sailor Moon. Or a whole host of magical girl shows. The cuteness factor is just as much an element of those shows as it is in Lucky Star or K-On.

Basically... what makes Cardcaptor Sakura a show for girls but Lucky Star a show for guys?

Let me come out and say it - I agree with the OP who started this merged thread; the gender-based labeling system used so prevalently in anime is messed up. It would be better to classify anime by gender-neutral terms like romance, mecha, harem, fighting, etc... I can see value in age classification, but less value in gender classification.

The language we anime fans use can be very limiting, and/or make anime difficult to sell. For example, I've heard it said that Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha is 'geared towards guys'. Whether it is or not, many female fans can like this show - there's plenty here for female fans to like. Why use restrictive gender-based labeling on shows that can have cross-gender appeal?


Quote:
It's called moe, or as the Japanese call it, bishoujo. They're feel good flicks. Aww she's so cute, I want to take her home kind of deal. Where have you been in the anime scene all these years to miss the moe craze?
I'll well aware of all of this. What I'm trying to do is get my fellow anime fans to think twice about some of the labeling that they take for granted - labeling that may very well not be the best approach to take to these shows. Labeling that cuts both ways - stops people from watching shows that may very well appeal to them just because "oh, that's for girls", or "oh, that's for guys".


Quote:

A point also needs to be noted that female audiences -- non-otaku ones anyway -- are put off by the bishoujo stuff. They don't like it. They aren't identifying with Konata and her indulgent otaku blubber or Yui and her clumsy butt.
Well, I haven't panned a great deal of female anime fans on what they think of K-On or Lucky Star, so I can't comment on this.


Quote:
Identification with characters is certainly one of the ways for someone to enjoy an entertainment piece. It's far from the only way.
... And people can enjoy a show with out it being supposedly 'targeted at their demographic'.


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Ever heard of the cute vs. hot debate?
Ever hear of females liking cute things?

Why restrict a show by labeling it as "for guys" when it can have cross-gender appeal?
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Old 2009-08-04, 13:15   Link #49
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Would a general audience look at Lucky Star or K-On and think "This is for guys"?
These shows aren't aimed at a general Western mainstream audience which is the perspective you seem to thinking of (I'm only saying that because you brought up Batman and Robin of all things as a comparison). They are aimed at otaku, and yes, otaku know these shows are aimed at them. We here on Animesuki, most of us, can also recognize that these shows are targeted at males.

Quote:
Why restrict a show by labeling it as "for guys" when it can have cross-gender appeal?
What are you talking about? No one here is saying women can't enjoy these shows or that shows never have cross-gender appeal. They're saying that they their production is targeted towards male audiences (who form the majority of the consumers of this sort of anime).
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Old 2009-08-04, 13:27   Link #50
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aye... the biggest single problem is that the japanese labels (which actually tend to simply designate the publishing house and their professed demographic target rather than what they end up actually publishing) simply don't have a 1:1 correlation to U.S. interests (I won't even call it 'Western' as Europe and even Canada differ in some ways).

The Western fan's tendency to cling insecurely to labels designed for Japanese audiences to determine what they watch (and the insecure need to denigrate people who choose differently) simply do themselves a disservice and annoy the rest of us
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Old 2009-08-04, 13:29   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
These shows aren't aimed at a general Western mainstream audience which is the perspective you seem to thinking of (I'm only saying that because you brought up Batman and Robin of all things as a comparison). They are aimed at otaku, and yes, otaku know these shows are aimed at them.
Yes, they're aimed at otaku (i.e. hardcore anime fans in general), I agree with that. What benefit is there in adding a gender-based label on top of that?

And as to why I raised western comparisons, it's to try to encourage anime fans to think outside of the anime box. In my opinion, we're far too attached to a labeling system that is often more of a hindrance than it is a help, if the hope is for anime to become more popular outside of Japan.

Quote:
We here on Animesuki, most of us, can also recognize that these shows are targeted at males.
What exactly makes Lucky Star or K-On for males? What about these shows makes them for males?


Did the producers of the shows come out and say "These shows are for guys", or intentionally put it under a male-based label?

Serious question - my knowledge of the inner workings of anime production is very limited; I'll admit that up front.

Also, if the answer is 'yes', fine, I can't really argue with that. But barring that, isn't the gender appeal of K-On or Lucky Star strictly in the eye of each individual viewer, if there is one at all?


Quote:
What are you talking about? No one here is saying women can't enjoy these shows or that shows never have cross-gender appeal.
Then why all this insistence on "This is targeted towards guys - and most anime fans accept that! You should too!!!"? How does this hard and fast insistence benefit us, or anime?

Right now, I feel like it actually offends you that I'm not necessarily agreeing with your statement that Lucky Star and K-On is targeted towards guys.

Why does it matter to you?
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Old 2009-08-04, 14:01   Link #52
Revenger1589
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, they're aimed at otaku (i.e. hardcore anime fans in general), I agree with that. What benefit is there in adding a gender-based label on top of that?
There's a gigantic amount of manga being published in Japan, these kind of label are necessary so that people know where to look.

Quote:
Did the producers of the shows come out and say "These shows are for guys", or intentionally put it under a male-based label?
Yes, both anime are based on manga published in a Seinen magazine so they are aimed at 18-30 year old males. That doesn't mean someone else can't enjoy them.

Quote:
Then why all this insistence on "This is targeted towards guys - and most anime fans accept that! You should too!!!"? How does this hard and fast insistence benefit us, or anime?
It benefits us the same way a genre label does, anime aimed at the same demographic tend to share certain characteristics, but this is by no means a rule.
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Old 2009-08-04, 14:10   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revenger1589 View Post
There's a gigantic amount of manga being published in Japan, these kind of label are necessary so that people know where to look.



Yes, both anime are based on manga published in a Seinen magazine so they are aimed at 18-30 year old males. That doesn't mean someone else can't enjoy them.



It benefits us the same way a genre label does, anime aimed at the same demographic tend to share certain characteristics, but this is by no means a rule.
Thank you for your answers.

I agree with you that a labeling system is good for the manga in Japan (due to your filtration point), but I still wonder if a more genre-based labeling system would be better.

I will say that I, personally, don't find any specific male-gender based appeal to the actual content of Lucky Star and K-On.
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Old 2009-08-04, 14:22   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yes, they're aimed at otaku (i.e. hardcore anime fans in general), I agree with that. What benefit is there in adding a gender-based label on top of that?
The term "otaku" is pretty much a gender label already.

Quote:
What about these shows makes them for males?
Irenicus already gave some pretty good descriptions about where the appeal for men lies in these shows, so I';d just be repeating him.

Quote:
Right now, I feel like it actually offends you that I'm not necessarily agreeing with your statement that Lucky Star and K-On is targeted towards guys.
I don't watch nor like K-On or Lucky Star and I don't like most otaku shows at all. Not sure why I would be offended, I am merely having a discussion in a discussion forum. In case you think I'm being insecure about gender, I freely admit to enjoying josei (young women) targeted series. It doesn't matter to me, but at the same time I agree with Irenicus that we shouldn't be "mistaking moe otaku flicks for mainstream female entertainment in Japan".

Quote:
Then why all this insistence on "This is targeted towards guys - and most anime fans accept that! You should too!!!"?
Because...they are. I didn't think I needed a reason to insist that people believe what is true and not what is false. Also, I'm not sure I ever used three exclamation points in succession.
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Old 2009-08-04, 14:43   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I will say that I, personally, don't find any specific male-gender based appeal to the actual content of Lucky Star and K-On.
Those shows are about cute girls doing cute things which is exactly what male otaku want to see. You mentioned CCS and Sailor moon in a previous post, and it's true that these have cute girls too, but there's a very big difference, they aren't about that.

Shows like Like Star or K-on are usually described as moe anime, they don't have a story and they genre is usually "slice of life."
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Old 2009-08-04, 16:16   Link #56
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Theowne pretty much responded to all of your points very succinctly, but just to clarify a few things...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, I haven't panned a great deal of female anime fans on what they think of K-On or Lucky Star, so I can't comment on this.
Female anime fans in the West -- and male anime fans for that matter -- have different behaviors compared to female media audiences in Japan. It should not be hard to find a Love Hina fan among female fans here. It is however far more difficult to sit on a Tokyo subway and find a girl burying her nose into bishoujo/moe products. Unless you're passing through Akiba, and even then very rarely (female otaku have their own styles: google the term fujoshi for details...or don't).

And yes, if anyone's wondering, I'm talking at the level of generalizations. That's inherent in the discussion involved.

Quote:
... And people can enjoy a show with out it being supposedly 'targeted at their demographic'.

...

Why restrict a show by labeling it as "for guys" when it can have cross-gender appeal?
You seem to mistake my point from what is reality to what should happen. Your original misunderstanding was to label these shows as "not for males." What I and others were pointing out is that they are labeled for males, otaku 18-30 males to be exact, and known and marketed as such. It's as simple as that. We were correcting your misconception. Whether an audience member should care about the labels themselves is not what I was discussing at all. Your justifications for why you see things this way are all tangential, though I did respond to those points.

If anything, I frequently read shoujo manga and openly admit as such, so the "should" problem isn't my problem.
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Old 2009-08-04, 16:20   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revenger1589 View Post
Those shows are about cute girls doing cute things which is exactly what male otaku want to see.
So male otaku are just one homogenous mass with no differences of opinion amongst themselves?


Quote:
You mentioned CCS and Sailor moon in a previous post, and it's true that these have cute girls too, but there's a very big difference, they aren't about that.
Really? Cuteness is a HUGE part of CCS. I think that a good argument could be made that cuteness is the main aspect of CCS.


Quote:
Shows like Like Star or K-on are usually described as moe anime, they don't have a story and they genre is usually "slice of life."
Well, there you go - you have a perfectly good genre label that doesn't require gender labeling.

Slice of Life.

Personally, I think that fits Lucky Star/K-On a lot better than "Anime aimed at 18-30 year old men".


Theowne - So females can't be otaku? That's very interesting...

Irenicus - I never said that Lucky Star and K-On are not for males. I just personally think that... for western audiences, at least... their appeal would be about equal for both genders. I could be wrong there.

Last edited by Triple_R; 2009-08-04 at 16:26. Reason: Edits for Theowne and Irenicus
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Old 2009-08-04, 16:30   Link #58
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So male otaku are just one homogenous mass with no differences of opinion amongst themselves?

Really? Cuteness is a HUGE part of CCS. I think that a good argument could be made that cuteness is the main aspect of CCS.

Well, there you go - you have a perfectly good genre label that doesn't require gender labeling.

Slice of Life.

Personally, I think that fits Lucky Star/K-On a lot better than "Anime aimed at 18-30 year old men".

Theowne - So females can't be otaku? That's very interesting...
To me, it seems you are just trolling this thread since you appear to be ignoring what people are actually saying and making rather pointless associations.

The person that seems most put out over the whole concept that series such as Lucky Star and K-On are "targeted towards guys" is yourself. Just because they are doesn't mean that only males can enjoy them any more than only otaku can enjoy them
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Old 2009-08-04, 16:39   Link #59
Revenger1589
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Triple_R you seem to be confusing demographic with genre, those moe shows I mentioned are slice of life and Seinen at the same time, in fact most slice of life shows featuring mostly cute girls are Seinen.

About CCS, It doesn't matter how much cute it has, it isn't what the show is really about, it features a lot of common troupes of the Shoujo demographic. K-on on the other hand, is all about the moe, it doesn't have any other reason to exist, and it shares a lot of qualities with other Seinen moe shows.
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Old 2009-08-04, 16:41   Link #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xris View Post
To me, it seems you are just trolling this thread since you appear to be ignoring what people are actually saying...
What have I been ignoring? For the parts I'm not responding to, it's because I don't dispute those parts at this point.

My main position is simply that the way anime is labeled is ill-suited, at least for western audiences. If people disagree, fine. If they agree, fine. Is it an illegitimate topic for discussion? If a moderator says so, I'll leave this thread.


Quote:
...and making rather pointless associations.
Such as?


Quote:

The person that seems most put out over the whole concept that series such as Lucky Star and K-On are "targeted towards guys" is yourself.
I certainly don't dispute that they've been labeled that way by their producers.

I just don't see how their actual content makes them any more inherently appealing to guys in particular than Card Captor Sakura's content is.

Hence, my position is that Slice of Life would make for a more accurate label for Lucky Star and K-On, at least amongst western audiences.


Revenger1589 wrote...

Quote:
Triple_R you seem to be confusing demographic with genre,
Not at all. Much of my point is that genre differentiations are more useful for western audiences than demographic differentiations are.

Quote:
About CCS, It doesn't matter how much cute it has, it isn't what the show is really about,
I simply disagree with this. Sakura's different costumes (i.e. cuteness appeal) from one show to the next is a key element unique to the show.

However, I respect your opinion.

Last edited by Triple_R; 2009-08-04 at 16:50. Reason: Edit in reply for Revenger1589
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