Macross Frontier (Macross 25) general discussion [No Spoilers]

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Would everyone prefer it if I split out all of the Shaloom stuff into its own thread?

I'm not sure it's necessary...*I* certainly don't plan on adding much more to it, at any rate. (Can't speak for anyone else, of course.)

Unless you want to make a general "information thread" warning about certain unreliable sources; that could be useful.

Either way, thanks!

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Unless you want to make a general "information thread" warning about certain unreliable sources; that could be useful.

That's not that bad an idea, but it'd be unfair to not include information of why these sources might be unreliable. Let's see what everyone else thinks about this.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's not that bad an idea, but it'd be unfair to not include information of why these sources might be unreliable. Let's see what everyone else thinks about this.

I´m on board. I find Shalooms whole trick-and-pony show reprehensible, and I´d like his scam to be obvious for people who might happen on the liner notes, even if I had the somewhat unfortunate role of having helped disperse them over the English speaking internet, when I translated them.

[cheesie]

By now, people are gradually settling down so I'm not sure if they're keen on re-opening the can of worms with a new thread. Why not write up a comprehensive account on the Shaloom incident and have it addressed on the FAQ? It's a good way to address any misconceptions around the issue (plus, it would be stickied too.)

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by cheesie

By now, people are gradually settling down so I'm not sure if they're keen on re-opening the can of worms with a new thread. Why not write up a comprehensive account on the Shaloom incident and have it addressed on the FAQ? It's a good way to address any misconceptions around the issue (plus, it would be stickied too.)

Hmm... That's not that bad an idea. However, I'm not too familiar about the events, so if someone would be so kind as to write up a summary of all that happened, I can append it to the FAQ.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Hmm... That's not that bad an idea. However, I'm not too familiar about the events, so if someone would be so kind as to write up a summary of all that happened, I can append it to the FAQ.

I guess that's my job, isn't it? Give me a few days and I'll whip something up, and pass it along to Magnus and Bishopcruz for approval.

And if anyone else wants to opine on it, just let me know, and I'll send it.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I guess that's my job, isn't it? Give me a few days and I'll whip something up, and pass it along to Magnus and Bishopcruz for approval.

And if anyone else wants to opine on it, just let me know, and I'll send it.

Sounds perfect, I´ll be waiting.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I guess that's my job, isn't it? Give me a few days and I'll whip something up, and pass it along to Magnus and Bishopcruz for approval.

And if anyone else wants to opine on it, just let me know, and I'll send it.

That'd be cool. When you're done, post it in this thread, and I can add it to a sticky.

[Yot-chan]

This isn't really anything new, but I finally completed my Frontier novel collection (Volume 2 was bought first, at Kinokuniya in Los Angeles -it was the only volume they had- followed by Volume 1 at Animate in Ikebukuro, Volume 4 at Book Express at Ueno Station, and finally, Volume 3 at Kinokuniya in Los Angeles -I guess they got a new shipment- ).

Anyway, I have to say I think the tables of contents get pretty funny by volumes 3 and 4, and after a Google search confirmed that no one else has put them up, here they are (the chapters are unnumbered):

Volume One
Macross Frontier
Flying High
Into the Darkness
First Concert
Galaxy's Crisis
Galaxy Battlefield

Volume Two
Unknown Valkyrie
Stardust City
Actors' Beach
Missing Birthday
Twilight Planet [cookies to anyone who remembers where we first heard THAT title. No cheating!]
Mother's Lullaby

Volume Three
Flashback 2048
Call and Response
From Tir na Nog
Farewell to Tenderness
Heart and Soul
LIFE SONG
Information High

Volume Four
Get Free
Lion
Do You Remember Love?
Sagittarius 9 PM Don't be late
Nyan Nyan Special Service Medley
BONUS TRACK: Cosmic Egg [This is the prequel story that was in Macross Ace issue 1]

And I said, not terribly revelatory, but it IS funny...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

This isn't really anything new, but I finally completed my Frontier novel collection (Volume 2 was bought first, at Kinokuniya in Los Angeles -it was the only volume they had- followed by Volume 1 at Animate in Ikebukuro, Volume 4 at Book Express at Ueno Station, and finally, Volume 3 at Kinokuniya in Los Angeles -I guess they got a new shipment- ).

Anyway, I have to say I think the tables of contents get pretty funny by volumes 3 and 4, and after a Google search confirmed that no one else has put them up, here they are (the chapters are unnumbered):

Volume One
Macross Frontier
Flying High
Into the Darkness
First Concert
Galaxy's Crisis
Galaxy Battlefield

Volume Two
Unknown Valkyrie
Stardust City
Actors' Beach
Missing Birthday
Twilight Planet [cookies to anyone who remembers where we first heard THAT title. No cheating!]
Mother's Lullaby

Volume Three
Flashback 2048
Call and Response
From Tir na Nog
Farewell to Tenderness
Heart and Soul
LIFE SONG
Information High

Volume Four
Get Free
Lion
Do You Remember Love?
Sagittarius 9 PM Don't be late
Nyan Nyan Special Service Medley
BONUS TRACK: Cosmic Egg [This is the prequel story that was in Macross Ace issue 1]

And I said, not terribly revelatory, but it IS funny...

Huh, okay? What are those stories in novels 3 and 4, then? And there was a prequel story in Macross Ace? What was that one about? More info, please!

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Huh, okay? What are those stories in novels 3 and 4, then? And there was a prequel story in Macross Ace? What was that one about? More info, please!

The four books novelize the series...Volume 1 covers eps. 1~7, Vol. 2 is 8~14, Vol. 3 is 15~21 (I think), and Vol. 4 carries it to the end, ending with a prequel short story about Alto, Michael, and Luca right before the series begins.

I've mostly just glanced through the books so far...it'll be a while before I start reading them in earnest.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

The four books novelize the series...Volume 1 covers eps. 1~7, Vol. 2 is 8~14, Vol. 3 is 15~21 (I think), and Vol. 4 carries it to the end, ending with a prequel short story about Alto, Michael, and Luca right before the series begins.

I've mostly just glanced through the books so far...it'll be a while before I start reading them in earnest.

Ah. thanks... somehow I misunderstood that the whole series would have been done in novels 1 and 2, so I was left wondering what was in volumes 3 and 4. Thanks for straightening that up.

[CaptGloval]

Really strange that they titled those chapters in vol 3 and 4 with old Macross songs.

[ickem]

I skimmed through the novels, but haven't gotten around to actually reading them yet. I did check out the Mao Nome flashback and remember that the shelter episode was different from the anime. Sheryl got Alto to perform a dance and did a play by play on all the nuanced feminine mannerisms. I probably won't get be reading the rest of the novels for a while so no other impressions. For now I'm enjoying the Bakemonogatari novels and the sequel and prequel. A pity that there are only 5 novels in total...

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by ickem

I skimmed through the novels, but haven't gotten around to actually reading them yet. I did check out the Mao Nome flashback and remember that the shelter episode was different from the anime. Sheryl got Alto to perform a dance and did a play by play on all the nuanced feminine mannerisms. I probably won't get be reading the rest of the novels for a while so no other impressions. For now I'm enjoying the Bakemonogatari novels and the sequel and prequel. A pity that there are only 5 novels in total...

It'll be quite a while before I get to them, too...thanks largely to the fact that there are FIVE Macross II novels...

I remember a rumor to going around to the effect of "Grace is confirmed to survive in the novels," which is absolutely untrue. It is, however, *hinted* that she survives.

(It says, more or less, that eleven years after her real death, her body died again...but as for her soul, who knows?)

I also noticed a discription of a café (in vol. 3, I think) that came VERBATIM from "Silver Moon, Red Moon," taking about the scent of Gitanes and Turkish coffee, while a tango rhythm is playing, blah blah blah...

[Foreshadow]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

It'll be quite a while before I get to them, too...thanks largely to the fact that there are FIVE Macross II novels...

I remember a rumor to going around to the effect of "Grace is confirmed to survive in the novels," which is absolutely untrue. It is, however, *hinted* that she survives.

(It says, more or less, that eleven years after her real death, her body died again...but as for her soul, who knows?)

I also noticed a discription of a café (in vol. 3, I think) that came VERBATIM from "Silver Moon, Red Moon," taking about the scent of Gitanes and Turkish coffee, while a tango rhythm is playing, blah blah blah...

It would make sense if she did survive. After all it was shown that after her body was destroyed she could "revive", shouldn't be any different if she got hit by Mikhail's rifle, then Leon's Lackies.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

It'll be quite a while before I get to them, too...thanks largely to the fact that there are FIVE Macross II novels...

I remember a rumor to going around to the effect of "Grace is confirmed to survive in the novels," which is absolutely untrue. It is, however, *hinted* that she survives.

(It says, more or less, that eleven years after her real death, her body died again...but as for her soul, who knows?)

I also noticed a discription of a café (in vol. 3, I think) that came VERBATIM from "Silver Moon, Red Moon," taking about the scent of Gitanes and Turkish coffee, while a tango rhythm is playing, blah blah blah...

Originally Posted by Foreshadow

It would make sense if she did survive. After all it was shown that after her body was destroyed she could "revive", shouldn't be any different if she got hit by Mikhail's rifle, then Leon's Lackies.

I wouldn't be surprised either if she did survive considering even after a ramation eater (sp?) Grace was still "alive." I would believe that Grace is smart enough to have a backup of some sort in case her body is destroyed. If anything, my hunch is that they might "revive" Grace for the new story in the 2nd movie or maybe use her for a future Macross series (with a different cast most likely.) Actually, they might not use Grace but one of the other "minds" that seem to coincide within Grace's body. So many possibilities.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That'd be cool. When you're done, post it in this thread, and I can add it to a sticky.

Okay...I'm sorry, it took me longer to get around to this than I was expecting. It's a little but longer than I'd like, so if anyone can pare it down further, I'd be grateful.

The Shaloom Question

Soon after Macross Frontier began its run on TV, a lot of behind-the-scenes information began to enter the English-speaking fandom courtesy of Shaloom of the Spanish forum, Macross Generation. This information was initially leaked out bit by bit, and then more information was consolidated in the form of liner notes, which accompanied Macross Generation's fansubs of Frontier. Shaloom not only provided exclusive information about Frontier, but also about previously unknown books and magazine articles about the original Macross series from 1982.

The sheer amount of data makes it difficult to summarize the contents of these posts, but the most exciting or controversial of them were:

1) That Sheryl was originally meant to be a minor character, until she proved popular in episode 5. The following episodes were hastily rewritten to give her a more prominent role.

2) That Sheryl was meant to die at the end of the series, but due to overwhelming fan support, this outcome was changed.

3) That Kawamori let his college friend (and frequent collaborator) Hiroshi Ohnogi write episodes 18~24, giving Ohnogi free rein to do whatever he wanted with the series. And also that Kawamori himself wrote episode 25.

4) That Ohnogi came out squarely on the side of Sheryl, wanting to sculpt her into the most memorable character he could; yet he encountered resistance from Kawamori, who favored Ranka.

5) Various personal stories about, for example, how Ohnogi and his wife met while making the first Macross series in 1982, and a script Ohnogi wrote for a love scene between himself and his wife, and how those "real-life" moments became part of the story of Frontier.

6) Many Macross novels and short stories written by Ohnogi in the early-to-mid 1980s.

Unfortunately, investigation of Shaloom's claims indicate that none of this information is true. The scripting duties on Frontier, according to every Japanese source, were performed by Hiroyuki Yoshino. Ohnogi is mentioned nowhere in any book, magazine, or DVD relating to Frontier (with the exception of episode 10: since some of the dialogue is taken verbatim from Macross Zero, which was written by Ohnogi, he is listed as a "script collaborator" for that episode).

Shaloom later admitted that his information was false, but declined to give specifics; without those specifics, it is hard to tell how much behind-the-scenes info about Frontier that has been disseminated among western fans is accurate, and how much is false. Furthermore, Shaloom gave similar information regarding Macross Zero, including claiming that he flew to Japan to interview Kawamori (the interview appears to be mostly cut and pasted from various existing Kawamori interviews).

In his explanation and apology, Shaloom said that he misremembered details while putting together the liner notes, but this does not appear to be credible, given that sources cited include interviews with Ohnogi (that Shaloom claimed he painstakingly transcribed) and books that Shaloom claims he owns, none of which appear to exist.

The current administrators of Macross Generation Forums have indicated their support for Shaloom and their belief that it was all a series of innocent mistakes. They have also made clear that they no longer view the topic as being worthy of discussion. Many errors remain, both in Shaloom's posts on the forum, and on the main site itself.

Recently (Aug. 6), Shaloom made a statement on Macross Generation that he would still be getting exclusive information direct from his contacts at Big West, the production company behind Macross. Since he does not appear to have any contacts at Big West, and since all his previous information was found to be false, this statement is suspect.

As such, any information from Macross Generation should probably be viewed with skepticism, unless accompanied by verifiable sources.

For more information check http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/inde...howtopic=30224.

FURTHER EDIT: On the advice of another member, I added the bit about Shaloom making up the story of Ohnogi and his wife, because creating stories whole cloth about a real person's life like that is just really damn creepy.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Okay...I'm sorry, it took me longer to get around to this than I was expecting. It's a little but longer than I'd like, so if anyone can pare it down further, I'd be grateful.

The Shaloom Question

Soon after Macross Frontier began its run on TV, a lot of behind-the-scenes information began to enter the English-speaking fandom courtesy of Shaloom of the Spanish forum, Macross Generation. This information was initially leaked out bit by bit, and then more information was consolidated in the form of liner notes, which accompanied Macross Generation's fansubs of Frontier. Shaloom not only provided exclusive information about Frontier, but also about previously unknown books and magazine articles about the original Macross series from 1982.

The sheer amount of data makes it difficult to summarize the contents of these posts, but the most exciting or controversial of them were:

1) That Sheryl was originally meant to be a minor character, until she proved popular in episode 5. The following episodes were hastily rewritten to give her a more prominent role.

2) That Sheryl was meant to die at the end of the series, but due to overwhelming fan support, this outcome was changed.

3) That Kawamori let his college friend (and frequent collaborator) Hiroshi Ohnogi write episodes 18~24, giving Ohnogi free rein to do whatever he wanted with the series. And also that Kawamori himself wrote episode 25.

4) That Ohnogi came out squarely on the side of Sheryl, wanting to sculpt her into the most memorable character he could; yet he encountered resistance from Kawamori, who favored Ranka.

Unfortunately, investigation of Shaloom's claims indicate that none of this information is true. The scripting duties on Frontier, according to every Japanese source, were performed by Hiroyuki Yoshino. Ohnogi is mentioned nowhere in any book, magazine, or DVD relating to Frontier (with the exception of episode 10: since some of the dialogue is taken verbatim from Macross Zero, which was written by Ohnogi, he is listed as a "script collaborator" for that episode).

Shaloom later admitted that his information was false, but declined to give specifics; without those specifics, it is hard to tell how much behind-the-scenes info about Frontier that has been disseminated among western fans is accurate, and how much is false. Furthermore, Shaloom gave similar information regarding Macross Zero, including claiming that he flew to Japan to interview Kawamori (the interview appears to be mostly cut and pasted from various existing Kawamori interviews).

In his explanation and apology, Shaloom said that he misremembered details while putting together the liner notes, but this does not appear to be credbile, given that sources cited include interviews with Ohnogi (that Shaloom claimed he painstakingly transcribed) and books that Shaloom claims he owns, none of which appear to exist.

The current administrators of Macross Generation Forums have indicated their support for Shaloom and their belief that it was all a series of innocent mistakes. They have also made clear that they no longer view the topic as being worthy of discussion. Many errors remain, both in Shaloom's posts on the forum, and on the main site itself.

As such, any information from Macross Generation should probably be viewed with skepticism, unless accompanied by verifiable sources.

This sounds about the right length and is as concise as possible.

BTW, you got a minor spelling error for "credible". third paragraph from the bottom.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

BTW, you got a minor spelling error for "credible". third paragraph from the bottom.

No, I didn't.