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Old 2012-01-19, 12:59   Link #2521
magnuskn
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While I appreciate all your work, I'm not sure that these things were still even in discussion? IIRC, all of what you translated here was already discussed, dissected and processsed. ^^

And I still stand by my assertion: Alto is a way more empathic and likeable character than Yoshino gave him credit for. There's a quite big disconnect here between what they thought they were showing and what actually happened on screen.
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Old 2012-01-19, 16:17   Link #2522
karice67
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Originally Posted by Xardie View Post
even if I'm slightly worried about the public response (but more than that: it's going to be fascinating )
Given the last person who used those myths, I'm actually hoping we don't get much of a response....

I just hope the people in question, both here and elsewhere, eventually stop referring to those myths and also stop using them as evidence for their arguments. That's all I ask, really.




Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
While I appreciate all your work, I'm not sure that these things were still even in discussion? IIRC, all of what you translated here was already discussed, dissected and processsed. ^^

And I still stand by my assertion: Alto is a way more empathic and likeable character than Yoshino gave him credit for. There's a quite big disconnect here between what they thought they were showing and what actually happened on screen.
Trust you to focus on the one insignificant part of the interview that has absolutely no relevance to the issue I raised.

And I'm not surprised you didn't notice, but the last time the myths in question came up here was just last weekend.

On GL's blog, one came up in November, at the height of his appreciation for the 2nd film.

So 'already discussed, dissected and processed', huh... Really...???
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Old 2012-01-19, 16:35   Link #2523
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Trust you to focus on the one insignificant part of the interview that has absolutely no relevance to the issue I raised.

And I'm not surprised you didn't notice, but the last time the myths in question came up here was just last weekend.

On GL's blog, one came up in November, at the height of his appreciation for the 2nd film.

So 'already discussed, dissected and processed', huh... Really...???
Well, I don't pay attention to LMK doing her fan-fiction stuff here, since it's... fan-fiction. ( Not that want to say bad about fan-fiction in general... I quite love a lot of what exists of it on the net. )

And, yeah, I am still quite irked by how Alto is perceived by the writers, contrary to how he was actually portrayed in the show. Maybe I am simply missing the Japanese cultural background to understand how horrible he is...
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Old 2012-01-19, 23:14   Link #2524
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Well, I don't pay attention to LMK doing her fan-fiction stuff here, since it's... fan-fiction. ( Not that want to say bad about fan-fiction in general... I quite love a lot of what exists of it on the net. )
You know, I would appreciate it if you would just leave me out of your arguments. It not only doesn't help justify your arguments but doesn't apply here.

First, it's not fanfiction unless you're referring to Watashi no Kare wa Pilot, in which case, that belongs in the stated thread. But that's an actual fanfic. And a quick note if you are talking about it:
Spoiler for growth in fanfics that aren't seen in anime, are they still fictional?:


Second, take into account that I have a different view of Alto than you. His actions and choices come out differently to me not only because I'm a woman but also because I've been in the middle of war before; and I've seen exactly what he's experiencing. So his choices and actions come off as childish to me.

And, as a side note to the discussion: Alto was not one of my favorite male characters in Frontier. It went like:
1. Ozma
2. Michael
3. Alto
4. Bobby
5. Brera
His denseness and poor decisions both in romance and war made me dislike him. But I just can't blame Alto for that because the movie has shown that he can grow better, but in the series, they didn't let him grow. Instead, it seemed like he just went with the flow. They stopped letting him take control of his destiny (with his own personality) and just went along with what the plot was drawing out. In simple terms: they wrote him how they wanted him to be.

Regardless, I still like him more than Hikaru. But in Macross characters:
1. Isamu
2. Max
4. Focker
5. Alto
6. Basara
And, sadly, #7 would be Hikaru. But I simply can't compare Alto to Basara because Alto at least realizes when a woman is interested in him, unlike said member of Fire Bomber. But he's nothing compared to my all-time favorite Macross characters.

---

On topic: the translation of the interview hasn't actually - from what I can tell - been done before, so thank you, karice.
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Old 2012-01-20, 03:14   Link #2525
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
First, it's not fanfiction unless you're referring to Watashi no Kare wa Pilot, in which case, that belongs in the stated thread. But that's an actual fanfic. And a quick note if you are talking about it:
Spoiler for growth in fanfics that aren't seen in anime, are they still fictional?:
Hre's a simple test. Did you get the company owning the property asking you to create a story about the characters? If so, your work is not fanfiction. Likewise, did the company pay you upon receipt of your story? Then it's also not fanfiction.

If the company didn't ask you and you didn't get paid, then it's fanfiction.
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Old 2012-01-20, 03:50   Link #2526
magnuskn
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I was actually talking about LMK making up "facts" for her arguments. Which she did. So many times that I stopped paying attention to her ramblings almost immediately, and I think everybody here knows how much I like argueing with Ranka fans. But it's worthless if the opposing side just makes up stuff in their heads and isn't talking about what actually happened in the series anymore.

Anyway, people should rather be discussing karices work here, rather than this. Sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
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Old 2012-01-20, 04:13   Link #2527
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Hre's a simple test. Did you get the company owning the property asking you to create a story about the characters? If so, your work is not fanfiction. Likewise, did the company pay you upon receipt of your story? Then it's also not fanfiction.

If the company didn't ask you and you didn't get paid, then it's fanfiction.
And like I said, if magnuskn was referring to Watashi no Kare wa Pilot - my actual fanfic - then that comment he made would've been just; but it wasn't, and therefore there was no reason to include me as a way to make an argument.

You know what would stop arguments? Don't use me as a reason to start them.

To the second half, I was referring to "how can you say a character's future development is fanfiction when it has never been seen?" I love when we discuss about what will happen in the future between the characters but don't take into account that unless we see that future development, that counts as "fanfiction." Unless it happened in the series/movies/novel/manga, then it is all fair game because there never was proof of their changes.

There is one simple fact: asking the question "what will happen in the future" and then giving out what you think or assume will happen in the future is "fanfiction" no matter what.

And so, when I say that my fanfic goes beyond the series' ending of their character growth, it's fair game. In all honesty, you could create a completely original character with their same personality just don't use their names and publish it. Only the names are copyrighted if you read that.

By the way, most people don't get paid even for original works. And most of the best books were not hosted by a company.

Can we stop talking about this in this topic? If you still want to talk about this, we should move it to the fanfiction thread because it's really off-topic.
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Old 2012-01-20, 07:31   Link #2528
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
You know what would stop arguments? Don't use me as a reason to start them.
What would also stop these arguments would be if you got your facts straight. Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
Can we stop talking about this in this topic? If you still want to talk about this, we should move it to the fanfiction thread because it's really off-topic.
Not really, since one of your post's unjustified Yoshino-bashing was what made Karice post this.
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Old 2012-01-20, 08:27   Link #2529
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LoveMeKags, I remember your posts from way back and on another boards. I thought you were pretty nice girl at the time. Which is why I think you should just give up and stop buying into OD's elaborately spun - and at times much better grounded in facts than many posters on AS would like to admit to be fair - bullshit. It's doing you no service and it's casting a long shadow over other Rankafags like me.

Game over man, game over

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And, yeah, I am still quite irked by how Alto is perceived by the writers, contrary to how he was actually portrayed in the show. Maybe I am simply missing the Japanese cultural background to understand how horrible he is...
add cast, staff and quite big chunk of fans to that and it would be accurate

Though we're speaking of series Alto here, film!Alto is pretty swell guy
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Old 2012-01-20, 08:54   Link #2530
karice67
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Well, I don't pay attention to LMK doing her fan-fiction stuff here, since it's... fan-fiction. ( Not that want to say bad about fan-fiction in general... I quite love a lot of what exists of it on the net. )
...and I really can't blame you for that. Technically, I tend not to pay attention either...but I do try to make sure that translated material isn't used in questionable ways...

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And, yeah, I am still quite irked by how Alto is perceived by the writers, contrary to how he was actually portrayed in the show.
Contrary to how you perceive him, you mean.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Anyway, people should rather be discussing what Yoshino actually said here, rather than this. Sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
Corrected

=====

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Not really, since one of your post's unjustified Yoshino-bashing was what made Karice post this.
Thank you for posting that.

I'd been debating whether I really wanted to bother pointing it out, given that nothing has ever gotten through before. Well, here goes, I guess.


@LMK

Spoiler for for length:
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-01-20 at 17:32.
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Old 2012-01-20, 09:24   Link #2531
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Contrary to how you perceive him, you mean.
You got to point out to me where all this horrible stuff in the series happens, because I am simply not seeing it. Saying "but the writers said it" doesn't count. Because I still see a enormous divergence between what the writers thought they were showing us and what actually was happening on the screen. And not only in the case of Alto. Ranka suffers even more of that phenomenon.... unless Crusaders hypothesis of her being a deconstruction of moe is literally true.
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Old 2012-01-20, 17:17   Link #2532
karice67
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
You got to point out to me where all this horrible stuff in the series happens, because I am simply not seeing it. Saying "but the writers said it" doesn't count. Because I still see a enormous divergence between what the writers thought they were showing us and what actually was happening on the screen. And not only in the case of Alto. Ranka suffers even more of that phenomenon.... unless Crusaders hypothesis of her being a deconstruction of moe is literally true.
The thing is, people have - and more people than you seem to remember. There is still no consensus.

Hence, I'll echo what someone else said quite recently, albeit about another character: how you perceive Alto is, at the bottom line, your interpretation. No one forced you to have that interpretation.

Just as no one forced the rest of us into our own interpretations of Alto. I can't speak for anyone else, but even if I read a lot of other opinions, and comments from the creators, I don't agree with something unless I can see it in the show itself.

I don't have the time or energy for another debate, but on a note related to what we should actually be discussing here (as you pointed out yourself previously), let's look at exactly what Yoshino said, AND what he was responding to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Quote:
--And even after than, Alto's strange advance continues. In episode 23, he said that he entered S.M.S. for Ranka's sake, but follows that by telling Sheryl that he'll return to her side in episode 24. And then we have his "You are both my wings!" in the final episode!
Yoshino: I think that Alto doesn't have much self-awareness. [That unconscious part though, is rather bad/mean. (laughs)] Speaking for myself, however, until the conversation between Sheryl and Alto before he goes off to battle, I really didn't know how their parting would turn out.
I, personally, am not very sure what "[That unconscious part though, is rather bad/mean. (laughs) / 無自覚な分、タチが悪いだけど(笑)]" refers to, although the '(laughs)' indicates that it's something that amuses Yoshino for some reason.

But I think the answer to your query lies in exploring this particular Q&A. If you want to, that is.
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Old 2012-01-20, 17:33   Link #2533
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The thing is, people have - and more people than you seem to remember. There is still no consensus.

Hence, I'll echo what someone else said quite recently, albeit about another character: how you perceive Alto is, at the bottom line, your interpretation. No one forced you to have that interpretation.

Just as no one forced the rest of us into our own interpretations of Alto. I can't speak for anyone else, but even if I read a lot of other opinions, and comments from the creators, I don't agree with something unless I can see it in the show itself.

I don't have the time or energy for another debate, but on a note related to what we should actually be discussing here (as you pointed out yourself previously), let's look at exactly what Yoshino said, AND what he was responding to.



I, personally, am not very sure what "[That unconscious part though, is rather bad/mean. (laughs) / 無自覚な分、タチが悪いだけど(笑)]" refers to, although the '(laughs)' indicates that it's something that amuses Yoshino for some reason.

But I think the answer to your query lies in exploring this particular Q&A. If you want to, that is.
I am actually rather surprised that Yoshino answers the question that way. Yeah, Alto entered SMS with the justification that he wanted to protect Ranka. Although that was, as was sussed out pretty extensively here on the boards over the last few years, most probably more of a pretense to be able to protect his home while still maintaining his facade of "hating Frontier".

However, even if he entered SMS for Ranka, that does not mean that he cannot reassess his priorities. He obviously went with staying by Sheryls side. And I'm not even touching all the good reasons he could have had to not to run off to pursue Ranka, which themselves have nothing to do with Sheryl. Sheryl was his main concern, though.
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Old 2012-01-20, 18:09   Link #2534
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I am actually rather surprised that Yoshino answers the question that way.
It could mean a number of things, possibly including the idea that it was mean of him (Yoshino himself) to write Alto to appear so wishy-washy. (Though that was just an initial consideration of mine when I was translating. Right now, though I'm still unsure how to interpret that line, I really don't think this is what he was driving at.)

And what he says about Alto and Sheryl's parting could imply that he personally didn't know if Alto actually loved Sheryl romantically until that point, until he wrote the scene, or until the characters 'wrote themselves' in it. But that's me guessing at what Yoshino might have meant, based in large part on how I first reacted to the similar scene in the 2nd film.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Yeah, Alto entered SMS with the justification that he wanted to protect Ranka. Although that was, s was sussed out pretty extensively here on the boards over the last few years, most probably more of a pretense to be able to protect his home while still maintaining his facade of "hating Frontier".
Sussed out by you and a few others, that is. That's not how everyone sees it.
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Old 2012-01-20, 18:23   Link #2535
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Sussed out by you and a few others, that is. That's not how everyone sees it.
That's good enough for me.
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Old 2012-01-21, 02:08   Link #2536
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What would also stop these arguments would be if you got your facts straight. Just sayin'.
No. This whole thing started a few posts after I stated I was a Ranka fan. After that, quite a few (who I've left nameless for now) decided to just start arguments by using my posts as a way to personally attack me without actually knowing me as a person. It has nothing to do with my facts or not. It's a matter of: they dislike me = we diss you in posts.

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Originally Posted by Xardie View Post
LoveMeKags, I remember your posts from way back and on another boards. I thought you were pretty nice girl at the time. Which is why I think you should just give up and stop buying into OD's elaborately spun - and at times much better grounded in facts than many posters on AS would like to admit to be fair - bullshit. It's doing you no service and it's casting a long shadow over other Rankafags like me.

Game over man, game over
First, I'm a girl - and that's just to correct you, because we haven't met before for you to know.

But we've met before? I don't remember you even on Bleach Asylum and Bleach Boards. Regardless, I am a nice person once you get to know me.

Just to let you know, I am friends with OD... but I'm also friends with a lot of other AR fans, like makina. That doesn't mean I'm spinning facts. I state what I see. Can I help it if people don't see it? No. Can I help it if it starts an argument when they decide to call me stupid when really it's my view? No. And I speak outside of the posts about Yoshino and whatnot. I am inclined to my own view. And my view is also very different from OD because he personally has a problem with Sheryl and I grew to like her as a mentor/helper to Ranka. We both have different views ourselves but we still get along because we agree to that simple fact.

And I'd just like to state that the series is still fair game since there was no actual ending to the triangle. And as we all know by now, the movies and series usually run on parallel universes. So I go with open triangle ending whenever I think about Frontier. I always recommend the series because the first movie bores people and the second movie just leaves them confused and then the triangle's ending makes a lot of them go "what the hell, this came out of left field" because the movie seemed to have no flow romantic wise. So I always recommend the series.

Regardless, I can justify that all shipper fans are really crazy, because when you think about it, since the internet and forums have been invented for us shippers, we've argued and quarreled about people that don't exist. So really, we've already cast a shadow over ourselves.

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@LMK
Before you retort in anger at what any of us has recently posted, I'd like to ask you to try the following exercise.
I responded in PM.

But I will post this:
The fact is that when the plot would change in the series, you'd see a small, insignificant little clue to it (like Sheryl's illness appearing just slightly early on and never being truly clued in until Ep.12). It showed that changes in the future scripts threw the writer(s) off. And they had to go back and insert clues that these characters had issues. The same applied for Ranka's connection to the Vajra. But when Ep.19 through 21 came around, the writer(s) seem really thrown off by Ranka leaving, Alto staying, and Sheryl suffering, even Michael's death; and they tried to fill in blanks for characters by giving other characters those roles. Ozma steps up momentarily to fill in this blank, but like with Focker, no one can replace Michael. So they basically screwed themselves over. Which is why, when Kawamori says the second movie is the true ending (in terms of how the war ended when I say this, I still disagree on the love triangle till I one day ask him that in person), I agree with him. It's much better planned (albeit the Sheryl fake death and magical save doesn't sit well with me) and ends properly without any last minute tunes. All in all, a better write. However, it has one downfall: so many plots overlapping. If they had entered more of these plots coming together in the first movie, it would've made it more interesting. Many of the people who watched the first actually fell asleep in between the two major battles, even ignored the AS moments because it was mostly recycled footage and also boring (the flow and not the romance, so don't take offense to that). They left everything until the final blow-out movie just like in Ep.24 and 25.

If the writer(s) can figure out how to plan a structured plot (even with comedy and romance) into the amount of episodes they have planned without the insignificant changes that cause them to go back and re-write (and they've done this even with Macross 7), then perhaps Macross could become the next big thing. It could become even more popular than now. But lots of people I've seen have left it over the years due to the plot failure.

And in regards to that, I don't blame Yoshino for plot failure in other Macross', I don't even fully blame him for this one. I blame him for the structure. I also slightly blame that Kawamori does not simply write the whole story himself and go by what he wants. The fact that he has to state they decided to leave the triangle open-ended means that it is not entirely his work. He didn't do it himself. He didn't stand up and say "I want this done my way." And the Kawamori who did SDF and DYRL did. He's gotten soft over the years. I dislike that.

And I don't recall ever being rude or inconsiderate to you, karice, at least not to the best of my recollection. You have been a very civil person to discuss with.

And, please, if ever you want to discuss with me about private things or opinions you have about me, please do so in PM. I, for one, do not want to spam the forum nor cause moderators to attack either of us for such a thing. And so, I am replying to your personal comments in PM.
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Old 2012-01-21, 03:01   Link #2537
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Originally Posted by Xardie View Post
LoveMeKags, I remember your posts from way back and on another boards. I thought you were pretty nice girl at the time. Which is why I think you should just give up and stop buying into OD's elaborately spun - and at times much better grounded in facts than many posters on AS would like to admit to be fair - bullshit. It's doing you no service and it's casting a long shadow over other Rankafags like me.

Game over man, game over
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Originally Posted by LoveMeKags View Post
First, I'm a girl - and that's just to correct you, because we haven't met before for you to know.
Bolded for failed attempts at reading.

"Game over man, game over" is a line from Aliens(a movie) which rather pretty famous.



As to keep one topic, I'd like to thank Karice for the lovely translation. Its good to get facts straight when presenting an argument in your favor. And as for writers seem to think Alto doesn't have self awareness, I can only assume its because the writes and directors may know more about the character then what perhaps been handled in series. For all we know there was a lot of Alto derping about that was left on the cutting room floor.
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Old 2012-01-21, 03:35   Link #2538
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Originally Posted by MichiNekoChan View Post
As to keep one topic, I'd like to thank Karice for the lovely translation. Its good to get facts straight when presenting an argument in your favor. And as for writers seem to think Alto doesn't have self awareness, I can only assume its because the writes and directors may know more about the character then what perhaps been handled in series. For all we know there was a lot of Alto derping about that was left on the cutting room floor.
That's even less of a reason to call the guy "horrible". And just really speculative.

For my part, I think there's some Japanese cultural background which I am missing. Maybe not wanting to hurt either of the girls is something really terrible in Japan? I mean, I do see that he could have made a decision sooner ( because he knew what was up as soon as episode 12 ), but I don't see the ill intent some people apparently want to ascribe to him.
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Old 2012-01-21, 03:59   Link #2539
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Maybe. I've honestly never done a full look at Alto, so I'm not even going to start any sort of character discussion on him. I just wanted the character I liked the most. (Ranka at first before I totally fell in love with Sheryl) to be happy and get the guy.

:< Plus I'm a bad character analyzer to begin with. I'm such a "at face value" person when I watch anime.
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Old 2012-01-21, 04:13   Link #2540
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Maybe. I've honestly never done a full look at Alto, so I'm not even going to start any sort of character discussion on him. I just wanted the character I liked the most. (Ranka at first before I totally fell in love with Sheryl) to be happy and get the guy.

:< Plus I'm a bad character analyzer to begin with. I'm such a "at face value" person when I watch anime.
Well, while I like deeper character analysis quite well, I don't suscribe to ignoring what actually happened on the screen, either.
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