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Old 2008-01-05, 14:08   Link #541
seraphon
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erf as if I m the only one ignoring the posts of people not agreeing with my theories. Thats what arguing in an anime forum is all about......

Joke aside,
In my posts I did mention that the humans barely know about the aliens...... They dont totally ignore their existence but they dont seem to know much either, so its not strategically sound to blow up their cover and give humans more data on them with a little raid.

for the air pressure problem you are not being very nice...... I said "in movies" and you say dont believe all the things you see in movies....... but I though you did know that in reality planes going at mach 3 do rip off trees....... But I mentioned films because most people arent planes freak and thus dont watch documentaries or such on the subject. But just saying I m wrong because I m mentioning films, that is a bit hasty.

"Basically, what you're saying amount to: "We don't know how the alien's gun works, so we don't know whether or not it would cause lots of devastation simply by the passage of its rounds. I'm going to assume it does despite all the evidence to the contrary.""

how the hell did you understand it that way?
And I said that what you said is as much an assumption as I said and not "evidence to the contrary".
Its really not nice to rephrase an argument to make it look so stupid. It s a blow under the belt. So I ll rephrase my arguments in small, understandable phrase
- alien guns(the one who shot at the hero) shot solid ammunition(not an energy beam)and rip into shreds enormous buildings and space mecha. -> we can assume that the bullets go very fast and are quite big seing the size of the gun(faster than sound or whatever)
- when objects move very fast, it tends to "move" the air in front of it to the side and create some kind of difference of pressure (dont know the technical term but to hell with it).
- a teenager body flying in the air at fast speed cannot endure big and sudden change of pressure without injuries.
- Being surrounded by air changing pressure( again, I remind its not a correct technical term but I hope you get what I mean) is not good for health especially when it involves objects going at mach speed.

Onizuka is right about the fact that in an elin POV their move might make sense, but I presumed that we were discussing here from a human strategic point of view in wich:
its not a sound move for a nation that has limited intel on its enemy but somewhat has the advantage of surprise on its enemy (the enemy dont know where you are, your forces....) to blow his advantage of surprise and start a war by doing a little raid of a it seems low importance to gather intel, and giving his enemy more info on itself and make the enemy ready for a war.

But oh well seeing that none of us are renowned generals(which sometimes doesnt add much anyway) we may be all wrong......
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Old 2008-01-05, 14:29   Link #542
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seraphon
for the air pressure problem you are not being very nice...... I said "in movies" and you say dont believe all the things you see in movies....... but I though you did know that in reality planes going at mach 3 do rip off trees....... But I mentioned films because most people arent planes freak and thus dont watch documentaries or such on the subject. But just saying I m wrong because I m mentioning films, that is a bit hasty.
As far as I can tell, no real aircraft can fly at Mach 3 at low altitude. Please explain why you think that their passage is going to "rip off trees".

Quote:
Originally Posted by seraphon
- when objects move very fast, it tends to "move" the air in front of it to the side and create some kind of difference of pressure (dont know the technical term but to hell with it).
I already told you - it's called "overpressure".
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Old 2008-01-05, 14:44   Link #543
RamzaOwns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seraphon View Post
erf as if I m the only one ignoring the posts of people not agreeing with my theories. Thats what arguing in an anime forum is all about......
now u just sound like a sore loser...are u the supreme ruler of the world, someone who we must all agree with?
and u fail to understand what it means to "discuss"
Quote:
Its really not nice to rephrase an argument to make it look so stupid. It s a blow under the belt. So I ll rephrase my arguments in small, understandable phrase
ironically, thats how i see it...
not a surprise though...since u are ignoring my posts...

Quote:
- when objects move very fast, it tends to "move" the air in front of it to the side and create some kind of difference of pressure (dont know the technical term but to hell with it).
- a teenager body flying in the air at fast speed cannot endure big and sudden change of pressure without injuries.
- Being surrounded by air changing pressure( again, I remind its not a correct technical term but I hope you get what I mean) is not good for health especially when it involves objects going at mach speed.
i suppose u are referring to G-force acting on ur body...
well...in macross, they already process the tech to control the amount of G's
or else they wouldnt be able to defold to places while relaxing (MacF)

to be fair, G-force reacting to the body could be seen in Macross Zero, during the main char vs the girl part, but that was before the space war

Quote:
its not a sound move for a nation that has limited intel on its enemy but somewhat has the advantage of surprise on its enemy (the enemy dont know where you are, your forces....) to blow his advantage of surprise and start a war by doing a little raid of a it seems low importance to gather intel, and giving his enemy more info on itself and make the enemy ready for a war.

But oh well seeing that none of us are renowned generals(which sometimes doesnt add much anyway) we may be all wrong......
*facepalm*
im not even gonna bother...
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Old 2008-01-05, 14:51   Link #544
seraphon
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rip of trees my be an incorrect term.... maybe rooted out is better?

When an object A of a certain mass pass beside another object B that can be immobile or in movement at a certain speed, depending on the speed and mass of A, the object B will tend to go to the same direction than object A "moved" by the overpressure if that is the correct term.
In the case of trees and fast moving things like air planes (I exagerated about the mach3 for dramatic effect, but I my irony there might have been unclear) the trees can be out-rooted (depending on his own mass and the strenght of the roots) or sometimes "break". A human body can have internal damage in these cases, but I supposed seeing the power and size of the gun that a teenager upper body would ""follow"" the direction of bullets getting separated to the lower half, thus the term "ripped into shreds" (for yet again a little drama effect and the satisfaction from using such a gory word) .


Again this is an assumption based on the fact that I think the bullets of a gun capable of taking out space mecha flying at great speed have a heavy mass and go faaaasssttt.
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Old 2008-01-05, 14:52   Link #545
seraphon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamzaOwns View Post
now u just sound like a sore loser...are u the supreme ruler of the world, someone who we must all agree with?
and u fail to understand what it means to "discuss"

*facepalm*
im not even gonna bother...
some people should learn how to use irony and how to recognise it too.

and even if you see me like an idiot, I think its incorrect to rephrase the way you did to make me deliberately look like an idiot. I mean, in a discussion with 2 (stubborn) opposing sides its quite normal to often think what the other party said is stupid/incorrect/irrelevant, thats human nature. It always seems like the other party is stubbornly not seeing the truth and is not reading your own sensible/logical/faultless(in the arguments aand logic because let's face it, we are not champions in english grammar and ortograph) posts. But when you start to counter the other just by making him look idiot it starts not to be a discussion but a senseless debate with 2 unwavering camp.

But I m not flaming you because like I said thats what you can expect in anime forums and in most serious discussion with 2 opposite side. But I think its better to keep being..... lets not say polite coz thats boring but let us say correct.

Last edited by seraphon; 2008-01-05 at 15:04.
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Old 2008-01-05, 15:13   Link #546
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lets all agree to...disagree.....

mind you, don't really see this as flaming, although RamzaOwns comments were a trifle rude, play nice lads, play nice.

but to get back on topic.

one thing everyone seems to over look, is that when Alto shot the red alien at CLOSE RANGE, which is practically considered more then optimal penetration power, anyone else notice how those rounds just....just BOUNCE of the armour on that thing?!

sheesh. considering the gun pod was successful on the beige "NORMAL" troops in space, while in fighter mode, one has to wonder if the RED alien can only be defeat with a bayonet?

does alto have to do a EVANGELION Knife stab on that thing? :O
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Old 2008-01-05, 15:16   Link #547
seraphon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO View Post
lets all agree to...disagree.....

mind you, don't really see this as flaming, although RamzaOwns comments were a trifle rude, play nice lads, play nice.
I do hope I play nice here.
I m not offended here(I m not that sensitive), but when I start seing rude comments I rather try to stop the beginning fire of trolls though I may be adding fuel to the fire
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Old 2008-01-05, 15:52   Link #548
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seraphon
When an object A of a certain mass pass beside another object B that can be immobile or in movement at a certain speed, depending on the speed and mass of A, the object B will tend to go to the same direction than object A "moved" by the overpressure if that is the correct term.
In the case of trees and fast moving things like air planes (I exagerated about the mach3 for dramatic effect, but I my irony there might have been unclear) the trees can be out-rooted (depending on his own mass and the strenght of the roots) or sometimes "break".
Again, you're not being very specific about your examples:
1. If you're not talking about airplanes moving at Mach 3 uprooting trees, then what are you talking about?
While there are a handful Mach 3+ aircraft, they all do so from altitudes of 20+km. Obviously, they're not going to be uprooting any trees.
2. If you're talking about a particular clip you saw, or something like that, you might as well describe it.
3. Since the cross-section of aircraft is much larger than that of the red alien's autocannon (even a 100mm round will only have a cross-section of 3.9E-3 m^2), the latter's velocity must be many orders of magnitude faster in order to produce a similar amount of overpressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seraphon
A human body can have internal damage in these cases, but I supposed seeing the power and size of the gun that a teenager upper body would ""follow"" the direction of bullets getting separated to the lower half, thus the term "ripped into shreds" (for yet again a little drama effect and the satisfaction from using such a gory word) .
Sure, a human being would be ripped to shreds if he were hit by medium-calibre and larger rounds, but why would the mere passage of such rounds have any such effect? It's obvious that the red alien's autocannon doesn't generate the kind of overpressure to harm anyone, both by their lack of effect on Alto and on the general environment, so why would you expect otherwise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seraphon
Again this is an assumption based on the fact that I think the bullets of a gun capable of taking out space mecha flying at great speed have a heavy mass and go faaaasssttt.
This assumption isn't entirely correct. While it's always preferable to use a weapon with a high propagation speed, what's really important is the relative velocities of the firer and the target. Fighter-mounted autocannons and the like are designed for a platform that can manage relatively favorable relative velocities with its target, so an extremely high-velocity round isn't necessarily a prime design goal. Factor in other constraints like ammunition capacity, desired rate of fire and recoil, and heavier, larger calibre ammunition becomes a pretty bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO
sheesh. considering the gun pod was successful on the beige "NORMAL" troops in space, while in fighter mode, one has to wonder if the RED alien can only be defeat with a bayonet?
I hope not. Macross is the one mecha franchise that almost totally eschews the use of melee weapons. It'd be a shame if it were to lose some of that uniqueness.
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Old 2008-01-05, 16:02   Link #549
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I hope not. Macross is the one mecha franchise that almost totally eschews the use of melee weapons. It'd be a shame if it were to lose some of that uniqueness.
I agree on this point, especially because in my view, the use of melee weapons by mecha is especially preposterous.
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Old 2008-01-05, 16:27   Link #550
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Originally Posted by Aquifina View Post
I agree on this point, especially because in my view, the use of melee weapons by mecha is especially preposterous.
Not quite. Considering Macross Plus, Isamu did go melee for one kill, but that was dependent on their enemy, which happened to be a rouge Zentradi force wearing their powersuits. And when we consider DYRL, Max and Miria during their little shootout sequence, Max came out almost unharmed, whereas Miria was quite bloody. Sometimes sitting in a VF has it's advantages.

Sometimes you gotta make that hole before you start pumping in the hot lead, as in the case of SDF-1 and the Pinpoint punch, followed by a barrage of missiles. Then again, IRL, there's always a standard set of munitions used by the military. When it calls for, they can switch over to the heavier stuff, hence Skull Squadron and their armor packs. Well, even the aliens go melee, poor Hiiro didn't stand a chance. Most VF pilots in the series are dependent on their gun pods and missiles. Facing an enemy that is capable of dishing out the firepower and the muscle isn't too farfetched of an idea, especially the red one we've seen so far that easily took fire from both Hiiro and Alto. Just as long as it doesn't become outrageous though.
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Old 2008-01-05, 17:23   Link #551
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Originally Posted by Atkascha View Post
Not quite. Considering Macross Plus, Isamu did go melee for one kill, but that was dependent on their enemy, which happened to be a rouge Zentradi force wearing their powersuits. And when we consider DYRL, Max and Miria during their little shootout sequence, Max came out almost unharmed, whereas Miria was quite bloody. Sometimes sitting in a VF has it's advantages.

Sometimes you gotta make that hole before you start pumping in the hot lead, as in the case of SDF-1 and the Pinpoint punch, followed by a barrage of missiles. Then again, IRL, there's always a standard set of munitions used by the military. When it calls for, they can switch over to the heavier stuff, hence Skull Squadron and their armor packs. Well, even the aliens go melee, poor Hiiro didn't stand a chance. Most VF pilots in the series are dependent on their gun pods and missiles. Facing an enemy that is capable of dishing out the firepower and the muscle isn't too farfetched of an idea, especially the red one we've seen so far that easily took fire from both Hiiro and Alto. Just as long as it doesn't become outrageous though.
Well, I'm new to the Macross universe; I was really expressing a general dislike for melee weapons in mecha anime, which I feel to be so unrealistic as to be irritating. There are limits to how much doubt I want to suspend.

Last edited by Aquifina; 2008-01-05 at 18:59. Reason: Typo
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Old 2008-01-05, 18:43   Link #552
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i wouldnt be surprised if there was a pilot in that red bug/mecha, and yes the bullets seemed to have no effect at all on the red ones, i guess the VF-25 is totally outmached in this scenario.
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Old 2008-01-05, 18:52   Link #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atkascha View Post
Not quite. Considering Macross Plus, Isamu did go melee for one kill, but that was dependent on their enemy, which happened to be a rouge Zentradi force wearing their powersuits. And when we consider DYRL, Max and Miria during their little shootout sequence, Max came out almost unharmed, whereas Miria was quite bloody. Sometimes sitting in a VF has it's advantages.

Sometimes you gotta make that hole before you start pumping in the hot lead, as in the case of SDF-1 and the Pinpoint punch, followed by a barrage of missiles. Then again, IRL, there's always a standard set of munitions used by the military. When it calls for, they can switch over to the heavier stuff, hence Skull Squadron and their armor packs. Well, even the aliens go melee, poor Hiiro didn't stand a chance. Most VF pilots in the series are dependent on their gun pods and missiles. Facing an enemy that is capable of dishing out the firepower and the muscle isn't too farfetched of an idea, especially the red one we've seen so far that easily took fire from both Hiiro and Alto. Just as long as it doesn't become outrageous though.

quite. also everyone seemed to forget in the first opening scenes of MACROSS PLUS where ISAMU was fighting renegade Zentradi ducks into a trench then proceed to bayonet a Zentradi trooper as he pass over him.

you should NEVER underestimate the use of Bayonets, I'm certain Macross will never goe so far as Stupid Gudam-like duelling with light-sabers.

But when your faced with an enemy like the Red Alien thing, and your that close and your rifle can't even make a dent on it, i'll take my solid bayonet and stick it to it, then go down fleeing.

besides im not saying that it'll turn out to all knife fighting just that for the initial encounter with a heavily armed enemy and your face-to-face having a bayonet is better then beating it with your rifle butt.

And if Alto manage to take down, or wounded the enemy with his bayonet, then at leased colonial forces will know the enemy red officers can be damaged, and the next engagement they will up the armaments, from the standard 40mm round gun pods to a more beefier calibre, to try out on the red ones.

no need to think the valkyries will be suddenly equipped for close quarter battles, the mechs just not designed for that sort of ridiculous action.

heh.

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Old 2008-01-05, 20:55   Link #554
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The situation of Isamu and his bayonet in Macross Plus makes sense if you ask me.

Pilots should at least have a reasonable melee option in case of emergencies—but something along the lines of Gundam with beam sabers and gigantic swords on their arms or legs is clearly too fantastic in comparison. Moreover, a duel between two good pilots in would look more like a wild dogfight in the sky than a couple of robots using their huge beam sabers/cannons at each other. I'm glad that Macross comes across as more "realistic" in this sense.

But Macross too can be kind of over the top in its own way. This is Macross after all. One good example in the weapons category is its grandiose display of established weapons of our time. (Jet planes that spray infinite missiles, etc.)
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Old 2008-01-05, 22:18   Link #555
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I don't mind semi-serious SF robot shows doing SUPER INAZUMA KICKS and GEKIGAN FLARE.

Afterall, shooting SPEAKER PODS at enemies is no less rediculous, even if equally amuzing.
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Old 2008-01-05, 22:31   Link #556
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Knives from Full Metal Panic, they are basicly chainsaws, would be nice sidearms for Macross.
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Old 2008-01-05, 22:50   Link #557
Aquifina
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Originally Posted by kujoe View Post
The situation of Isamu and his bayonet in Macross Plus makes sense if you ask me.

Pilots should at least have a reasonable melee option in case of emergenciesóbut something along the lines of Gundam with beam sabers and gigantic swords on their arms or legs is clearly too fantastic in comparison. Moreover, a duel between two good pilots in would look more like a wild dogfight in the sky than a couple of robots using their huge beam sabers/cannons at each other. I'm glad that Macross comes across as more "realistic" in this sense.

But Macross too can be kind of over the top in its own way. This is Macross after all. One good example in the weapons category is its grandiose display of established weapons of our time. (Jet planes that spray infinite missiles, etc.)
I for one found it somewhat odd, if cool, that so many of the Macross fighters looked like F-14s. With the F-22 in service and the F-35 in the pipe, it gives the show an almost retro feel.

But that's just my own outsider perspective.
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Old 2008-01-06, 01:44   Link #558
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Don't forget the preview to the next episode. It seemed Alto got in pretty close. I imagine the big hole sucking Ranka out was caused by the red bug escaping. Something happened.

That and I remembered that Hiiro did let loose a barrage of missiles right after big reddie shot Alto out of the sky. And after Hiiro ejected, there was no clear damage to the alien. If missiles ain't working, then there's always the power of... SONGS!!
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Old 2008-01-06, 01:46   Link #559
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Only the VF-0/1 and the VF-25 has the swept-back swing-wings that reminds one of the Tomcat. The VF-19 had forward swept wings (SU-37/47) while the 21/22 looks remarkably similar to the F-22 in many ways.

As for melee, part of the purpose of the battroid mode was for combat against the giant Zentraidi. As such the machines can certainly punch and use the bayonet effectively.

In Plus you also see the use of both melee and projectile combat once the fight descended into an urban setting. It was actually quite plausible in that context and the pilots freely switched back to aerial combat when judged appropriate (none of that nonsense that melee always trumps guns in Macross).


They also don't have close to unlimited ammo in Macross. That's why they even carry underwing missiles that must be fired before transformation is possible (usually shot off right at the beginning of battle). FAST packs also exist for that reason. One of the reasons why the YF-19 and YF-21 couldn't really handle the Ghost X-9 was because they've pretty much expended their ammunition at that point.

Last edited by ChronoReverse; 2008-01-06 at 02:14.
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Old 2008-01-06, 02:14   Link #560
iseng
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4tran:
I think what seraphon was pointing out the effects of an object passing at high speed on its surrounding environment.

In a fluid medium environment, an object passing through at high speed creates pressure waves (both in front and behind it).

The volume of the shock waves depends on the quantity of the medium being accelerated. This in turn depends on the size of the passing object. Bigger object creates bigger waves.

However, smaller object (or rather shorter object) compresses the waves more, thus creating stronger waves. It's smaller but does the job better.

--------

Personally, I'm more concerned with the barrage itself. GAU-8 Avenger 30mm muzzle velocity is 990 m/s (about Mach 3) with rate of fire of 1800-3900 rounds per minute.

Each second, 30-65 rounds are flying to Alto at the speed of 990 m/s. Avoidance is practically impossible, due to humans body frailty.

And that's an outdated earth weapon in Macross Frontier world. Imagine what the alien would possess.


RamzaOwns:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamzaOwns View Post
i suppose u are referring to G-force acting on ur body...
well...in macross, they already process the tech to control the amount of G's
or else they wouldnt be able to defold to places while relaxing (MacF)
It doesn't work that way. Alright you mentioned 3 different things here:
  1. g = g-force = acceleration.
  2. G = grativational constant.
    I think what you meant by G is artificial gravity strength of Macross Frontier Island-1's, which is 0.75 of earth's.
  3. Spacefold - not sure how it works so can't really comment here.

Regarding g-force, human body can tolerate:
  • upward vertical g-force of ~3 g
  • downward vertical of ~5 g
  • forward horizontal of ~12 g
  • backward horizontal ~17 g.

For comparison, sneezing subjects you to ~3g. Roller rides subject you from ~3g to ~7g. The population of Island-1 is used to 0.75G; thus less tolerant of g-force.

Although humans posseses the spacefold technology, there is no known application as portable innertial compensator small enough for personnel equipment.

To dodge tens of bullets travelling at say 1000 m/s, Alto must be subjected to tens (if not above a hundred) of g. He shouldn't have survived. Either the bullet would have killed him, or the brutal acceleration.

--------

On another point. what I don't understand is, with all technological advances why would they still use gas propelled projectile weapons (ie crude outdated gunpowder firearms)?

Why not say electromagnetic accelerated projectile like coilgun / gauss gun?
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