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Old 2009-01-24, 14:21   Link #201
kari-no-sugata
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Rather late reply... but I wanted to respond to this for a while..


Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneHige View Post
To other ppls, yes..the denial seems to be the same for both Shou and Ren, but I'm also referring to her self-denial that she's in love. Not once did she deny to herself that she's in love with Shou, because she knows well very she's not. However, when it comes to Ren, she has to find some sort of excuse to bound herself to think that "I'm not in love, i'm still ok". One good example is:
Spoiler for Dark Moon:
I see that scene quite differently:
1) Kyouko wasn't worried about her "heartracing" the night before until she saw Itsumi's reaction to acting against Ren - and Yashiro's explanation of it.
2) Ren has a reputation of his co-stars falling for him. The scene with Itsumi and Ren after the acting test was supposed to be confirmation of that - ie, another example, and one for Kyouko to see for her own eyes.
3) When she found that out, Kyouko feared that Ren could make her fall in love with him against her will (effectively) just by his acting.
4) This is why she's terrified. Yashiro even thinks "that the blood is draining from her face" - and further that "I'm beginning to feel sorry for Ren. Has he no chances at all?". Yashiro's comments / thoughts are often accurate or a good indication. I don't mean that to be "Ren has no chance" but rather, it'll be really hard.
5) Kyouko thinks about it some more, and decides that her personal reactions the night before were perfectly normal for the situation and she doesn't need to worry about her heart being stolen. She's relieved at this... and is smiling. Normally, when someone is denying they're in love, they're not smiling or relived.

Anyway... I still don't see any scene in the manga as being an indication of Kyouko being in love with Ren... yet. She's still dead set against romantic love in regards for her self.

A lot of the time we see Kyouko and Ren together, it tends to be work related. So it's easy for Kyouko to fall into a kouhai / senpai pattern. We haven't really gotten an opportunity for Kyouko to get jealous about Ren (or a girl he's with) outside of acting - on a more personal level. For example, we've seen Kyouko being jealous of Ren's praise for Itsumi's acting skill, but we haven't seen Kyouko being jealous over "Katsuki" and "Mizuki" being close - they must have some more intimate moments. Maybe we'll get something along those lines near the end - surely Katsuki and Mizuki kiss? Imagine how awkward Ren would feel if Kyouko was on the set to see that. But, would she react to it at all?


Quote:
Also, there are a lot less heartfelt, tender moments between Shou and Kyouko than Ren and Kyouko, maybe in the future we'll see more of Shou, but as of now, there's no comparsion.
There tends to be big gaps between Shou and Kyouko meeting and often quite a bit has changed in the time between those meetings. Certainly when they meet again, Shou's stardom will be on another level - I expect he'll be #2, just behind Ren. But where will Kyouko be by then I wonder? We've yet to get a general indication of her popularity, or face-recognition. It might (currently) be accurate to say that "Mio" is better known than Kyouko is.


[quote[I understand that Kyouko shouldn't be "categorized" so easily, that's why I raised this discussion, because even if she doesn't fit perfectly, I feel that she shows many of the same characteristics as a "typical" Tsundere (I define Tsundere as the original kind, not the washdown cheapen version that all these "moe" anime created).

Original as in "starts tsun-tsun and becomes more dere-dere over time"...?


Quote:
As for the manga itself, I really hope Kyouko ends up with Ren, and it seems it will go that way as well. However you can never be too certain as demostrated by Ichigo 100% >_<
I think the series will end with Kyouko in a proper romantic relationship with Ren... or nobody.

I don't think she'll have her revenge against Shou as she originally envisioned it, though it's possible that Ren will continue to be the most popular male (preventing Shou from being #1) and Kyouko will eventually rise to #1 most popular female, meaning she'll have beaten him in some ways. Shou's happy (enough) so long as her feelings (love or hate) for him are stronger than her feelings for anyone else. Losing her to Ren would be painful for him... though I suspect necessary for him to develop in the long term.

I suspect Kyouko will eventually realise that her hate for Shou is holding her back, or something along those lines, and that she'll decide to erase all her feelings for Shou (effectively, to forget about him). She might do this in a particularly Kyouko-ish way and make a live-size Shou doll... and then stab it to death and burn it


Quote:
I feel the same way that as long as the author brings out a "complete" ending, I'll be satisfied. If that ending happens to be Shou, I'll be slightly irritated but satisfied. If the ending ends up with something like School Rumble, I may have to add another person to my "must-kill/torture to death with my demons" list.
I'm not particularly worried about what Nakamura-sensei might do, since she does seem to care about "endings" quite a bit. I don't think fans were upset at the ending of her last long series (Tokyo Crazy Paradise) - it wrapped things up pretty well (though we didn't see a "years later" type thing).
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Old 2009-01-24, 15:36   Link #202
willyvereb
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Ren: I think Kyoko is not in love with Ren but close to it's start. Her image of him not changed for a year. She thinks he has 2 sides: Workaholic professional actor and evil player.
The only thing that have changed that she see him more like the first than the second. Most possible pairing.His obstacles:
-Kyoko's declaration to not falling in love again
-Kyoko knows him as a workaholic womaniser. Even if she admires his workaholic side she can't let him close easily.
-His feeling that he don't deserve the love
-His so called "dark past"

Shou:She can deny it but she somewhat loves him(even if it's well hidden even from her). Her reaction was quite surprised to see that Shou actually do something for her(vile ghoul scene). And her(Kyoko's) hate to Shou not holding back her development as an actress...even motivates her because Shou risen even higher so she must rise higher too. The only place where she has holden back because him is the love. She decided to not falling in love ever again...and i think until she has even a little piece of her former love with Shou she can't. If there's an actual chance to a proper pairing it 100 chapters away. There has to be HUGE developments:
-First we have to see his "good side"(he have something like that? Somewhat yes but it's too shallow to actualy the people can accept later a kyokox shou pairing)
-We have to forgive him that he used Kyoko in the past.
-We have to see certain signs of love from Kyoko's side.
Then we can have a talk of a possible Shou pairing...And theres the obstacles that must be overcome to the realisation of relationship...

Considering the story so far i think the Kyokox Ren pairing have a very solid ground because it's somewhat hinted that Ren will learn the "acting of love" with the real practice with Kyoko. So in time when the Dark Moon comes to the realisation of the main characters romance then Kyoko's and Ren's romance realises too.
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Old 2009-01-25, 01:14   Link #203
HurricaneHige
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kari, we agree to disagree as from your post I can see that our views on the same scene is very different and that forms the basis of our views/reasons

One thing I would like to point out tho: A girl in love with someone else does not necessary HAVE to be jealous. The typical anime shows jealous because it is easy to portray, but I don't think it is necessary to show "love" or "like".

And the Tsundere I believe in is the "tsun tsun" at first, then "dere-dere".

It's hard for Kyouko to get recognition from the public because whenever she's in a role she changes her appearance completely to fit the role, meaning her usual "uncharismatic" look is hidden and hard for the audience to connect the dots. (Altho I think Kyouko is nowhere near "uncharismatic" normally, but thats just me).

Can't wait til Feb 5th...this cat fight is gonna be awesome @_@
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Old 2009-01-25, 16:11   Link #204
kari-no-sugata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneHige View Post
kari, we agree to disagree as from your post I can see that our views on the same scene is very different and that forms the basis of our views/reasons
It's okay - it's pretty much what I expected. I just wanted to explain how I saw things a bit.


Quote:
One thing I would like to point out tho: A girl in love with someone else does not necessary HAVE to be jealous. The typical anime shows jealous because it is easy to portray, but I don't think it is necessary to show "love" or "like".
I agree - jealousy would just be an example.

btw, say for the sake of example that Kyouko was in love with Ren and realised it, as she is in the story now - how do you think she'd react? I don't think she'll have a positive reaction to it at all. More like, she'd try to bury the feelings and start avoiding Ren.
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Old 2009-01-27, 01:57   Link #205
HurricaneHige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
btw, say for the sake of example that Kyouko was in love with Ren and realised it, as she is in the story now - how do you think she'd react? I don't think she'll have a positive reaction to it at all. More like, she'd try to bury the feelings and start avoiding Ren.
Exactly!

However, whenever she is sorting out her feelings Ren conveniently leaves the scene (President calls etc etc) and allows time for Kyouko to recoup, then find some excuse to bury herself in and re-lock her heart, or at least that's how i feel it's been so far.

When Kyouko is unable to hide anymore and realize her feelings, I think that is when we'll see this side of the story move at much faster pace. Ren will be hurt because he doesn't know why she avoids him, and Kyouko will continue to hide from him, it's been done in other anime/drama before, it'll be done again imo.
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Old 2009-01-30, 21:02   Link #206
Torri_fay_torren@hot
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Q...Is Kyoko in love with Ren?
A.... NO
Q....Is she attracted to Ren occasionally?( And against her will)
A....YES!!!!

Right now she is at the beginings of love. The big clue for me was when Ren was going through his issues with Dark Moon. How much she cares for him is well established by how frantic she becaume. But what really got me was when Kyko was Bou and Ren told her he liked a girl. She was all like "Suduce her, make her yours." You can't be in love with someone and say those words. Even if she wasn't aware of her love, or if she wasn't the jelous type she would have still felt weird saying that. It was only a little latter that Kyko was attracted durring "Heated games" ,but even that was just the first step. It can't be denied that she is takeing more and more comfort by just being around him. That part is growing. But she's not there yet.

As for Sho.... deep down you know that she still cares for him. The shire amount of hatred she has for him is evidence to how much she loved him.
That was real or she wouldn't have been hurt so badly. The thing is, Sho has realized to some extent what he did and he is going to try to make amends. Even though I don't think Kyoko will ever take him back, (heres hoping) the fact is he has just enough of an effect on kyoko to make things intersting. Will see how that relationship develops. I should point out that we haven't seen Kyoko fantasising about killing Shotaru for sometime now.
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Old 2009-01-31, 08:56   Link #207
kari-no-sugata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Perhaps seeing some important character's reactions to Natsu would be interesting...my speculation:
-Moko: can't recognise her and she speaks with her at first just like a "stranger". Then if they're spending more time she suddenly recognise her and she would be realy surprised.
-Ren: nothing special. Ren have seen Kyoko as Natsu a little bit and he can guess what'll she look like.
-Sho: Can't recognise her and starts flirting with her. Natsu will go with a the flow to a certain extend and then she reveals she is Kyoko.SHOCKED
-Yashiro: SHOCKED
-Maria: EXCITED...how beutifull onee-sama!
-LME President:SURPRISED
I'm not sure what your expectations are, but I don't think we should expect many others outside of BOX"R" to get to "meet" Natsu - Hikaru might be the only lucky one. Kyouko's definitely not Natsu 24/7 and on the Kimagure Rock set, she was normal Kyouko - until she met Chiori. It didn't take her long to revert to Kyouko either. So, unless such a co-incidence happens again or unless it's just before or just after BOX"R" shooting, Kyouko will be Kyouko, not Natsu.

On the Dark Moon set, Kyouko would be focused on Mio, no Natsu. But, not all hope is lost - Ren could always ask Kyouko about Natsu, since they've talked about it more than once and he's helped her regarding the part.

And finally... there's the actual show itself. I'd expect Yashiro to tape it / watch it and bring it up with Ren. I'd imagine Maria would watch it too. The show itself is being promoted rather strongly, so Shou could find out about it.

We'll see. Though, from her "free talk" comments, Nakamura-sensei did not originally plan for Ren to see Kyouko as an angel for the "Prisoner" PV - it was only after very persistent reader comments that she provided the "service"
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Old 2009-02-01, 03:48   Link #208
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This is just my speculation...i think there's a rather low possibility that anyone other finds Kyoko as she's in "Natsu mode"...the only scenario i can think of when she's out with her "friends"(not sure that's the case...maybe only just "Natsu's friends"-as acting partners). Then she may just meet with someone out of concidence.
It's good to hear that the mangaka is keen to the reader's needs...maybe then we see some Natsu+Sho meeting...because that kind of meeting is wanted the most i think...
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Old 2009-02-05, 05:06   Link #209
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Ok...the ch 135 raws are out!
Spoiler:


I think Both Natsu and Mio is equaly scary...Mio's scariness is instant and like you melts from her inner fire of anger...In contrast Natsu's like deep freeze...you slowly catched by it and becomes her plaything.
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Old 2009-02-05, 09:55   Link #210
kari-no-sugata
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Ok...the ch 135 raws are out!
Spoiler:


I think Both Natsu and Mio is equaly scary...Mio's scariness is instant and like you melts from her inner fire of anger...In contrast Natsu's like deep freeze...you slowly catched by it and becomes her plaything.
Spoiler:


I see Natsu and Mio as quite different characters... which is how it should be. Mio sees herself as not really being human - a demon of hate, and very much a loner. Merely facing Mio face to face would be difficult. Natsu's evilness is rather all-too-human - the ends justify the means, and so long as she's having fun she doesn't care about the side-effects. She divides the world into friends, current bullying targets and potential bullying targets. Unlike Mio, she probably wouldn't feel that extraordinary if you just met her randomly. It also feels a bit natural to feel some sympathy for Mio if you know her background, while I think the reverse is true for Natsu - the more you know about her, the harder she is to like. Her actions aren't remotely justifiable and she can spread her poison to "infect" others.

I wonder how the final version of BOX"R" will come across to viewers. Seems hard to predict at the moment. I wonder how the viewers will react to Mio vs Natsu. Mio's visuals are "ugly" while Natsu is quite "stylish" - it's her personality that's evil.
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Old 2009-02-05, 11:17   Link #211
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That's how it is...they're quite opposite of each other but they're both "evil" and to be feared.
After seeing the last pages of the Raw(not exactly the manga scenes but the promotion pictures)...i guess maybe even Ren's meeting with "Natsu" would be interesting...
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Old 2009-02-05, 17:01   Link #212
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Ok...Ch 135 scans are out!
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-02-05, 17:15   Link #213
HurricaneHige
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135 was pretty sweet =)

All that needs to be said has already been said above XD

In terms of final product of BoxR, I think her stylish image will probably bring her more roles in the "beauty" section, and her acting as Natsu will undoubtedly help to expand her "roles"

I feel bad for Rumi, completely oblivious to her doom =3
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Old 2009-02-05, 20:17   Link #214
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wow that was freaky good.... 135 was awesome...

am i the only one who thinks natsu is cool lol
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Old 2009-02-05, 21:37   Link #215
Samanosuke
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I just read 135 , and I.... uh...woah...Kyoko...gawd she's scary.
no like...really.
damn.
edit :
Is it wrong that the more she scares me , the more I love her ?
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Old 2009-02-05, 22:17   Link #216
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AAWWW I am scared. Natsu is psyco. So scary. In a differn't way then Mio. Even though the are about the same level, Natsu scares me more for some reason. Mio is a demon but Natsu is humen and thats even worse. She even gets prettier as she becaumes more scary. I miss Kyoko!!!!
Spoiler for latest ch:
Ren might have to give Kyoko a pep talk because of this. She might get scared because of this role. I love how the directer and everyone else was totaly freaked out! He asked for scary.....
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Old 2009-02-06, 00:27   Link #217
Kaoru Chujo
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Wow. What can you say? A memorable manga chapter. Yeah, I think they were both a bit scared of what they had done -- but Kyoko can handle it.
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Old 2009-02-06, 02:30   Link #218
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I think Kyoko has lost her control of the role...Natsu's personality so strong that when she become Natsu can't stop it...
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Old 2009-02-06, 14:49   Link #219
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Clearly it was beyond acting, the standard Kyoko would never have tolerated this behavior.Even for the necessity of the show, she couldn't have accepted this. It's likely there will be an "afterglow" effect of some sort because I can't imagine Kyoko getting out of her role easily.

Natsu is class A sociopath and chiori's anger is beyond scary. In the end, chiori seems shocked but I am not sure by what? She realized that she was manipulated? Or she was just shocked by what she did?

Natsu? I have no idea, impossible to read.
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Last edited by ZeusIrae; 2009-02-06 at 16:27.
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Old 2009-02-06, 15:46   Link #220
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OMG kyouko you wonderful devil lol
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