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Old 2007-07-10, 20:21   Link #61
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by Kowai View Post
Hidan also said he was the weakest in akatsuki, however maybe he was just respecting his elders as he seemed young and was a newer member.
He never said he was the weakest. Hidan said he had the slowest attack speed in Akatsuki. Likely due to his weapon. He was extremely confident and arrogant about his abilities. He was the one that wanted to kill Team Gai and talked back to the AL. He had no respect for anyone.

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The very existance of a strong evil character with god-like abilities is a plot device
These evil guys are invented in such a manner that they seem to be unbeatable and very dangerous for the main characters. But every power what they've got was invented in relation to the main good characters, as they will serve a purpose when the actual evil character meets the main one. For example Hidan's immortality was invented for Shikamaru's super-smart-thinking, their fight was meant to show how much has Shikamaru progressed, and to promote Shika to the elites of Konoha ninja. Then we have the indestructible and element-based raw power ninja Kakuzu. He was invented for Naruto, where Naruto learns elemental jutsu, he surpasses the rasengan and invents a super-powerful jutsu, so to show how strong the jutsu is Kakuzu was introduced. We also see Naruto's progression in terms of demon control, as the 2tailed girl transformed into the cat demon than was defeated while Naruto is in control for the full time (never transforms into 4 tails) and wins. Those two were meant to be "plot devices" to introduce the new Naruto and the new Shikamaru. And the same is true for Orochimaru, Deidara, etc...
In shonen manga it's considered good writing
Exactly. The Akatsuki are simply plot devices for the heroes of the manga. Naruto's generation. They exist to showcase the improvement of the kids. Sasori for Sakura. Hidan for Shika. Kakuzu for Naruto. And now Deidara/Oro for Sasuke. The ones who still live(Tobi, Zetsu, the AL...etc) will likely be involved in the coming great ninja war and will die too at the hands of major characters. So their power levels or who was strongest really doesn't matter. Even Itachi's only real purpose is to be killed by either Sasuke or Naruto.
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Old 2007-07-10, 20:30   Link #62
Kowai
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
We also see Naruto's progression in terms of demon control, as the 2tailed girl transformed into the cat demon than was defeated while Naruto is in control for the full time (never transforms into 4 tails) and wins. Those two were meant to be "plot devices" to introduce the new Naruto and the new Shikamaru. And the same is true for Orochimaru, Deidara, etc...
In shonen manga it's considered good writing
yeah but the 2 tails fought hidan and kakuzu at the same time,
naruto on the other hand finished off a somewhat weakened kakuzu with a whole team.
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Old 2007-07-11, 04:13   Link #63
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yeah but th move he used would have finished kakuzu even if he was in top form, they explained that.....
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Old 2007-07-11, 08:18   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The very existance of a strong evil character with god-like abilities is a plot device

Of course,!!! but when you establish someone powers for the sake of introduction and then in his last fight you find his opponent defeating him, for reason that have nothing to do with the power itself, rather than circumstances surrounding the character that is going to be defeated, then there is a plot devise created in order for the character to be defeated.

The best example is how the Konoha team (shikamaru) were given a second chance against hidan, there is a plot devise were in the specific moment they can kill everyone they get retrieved from battle, and I could name another few instances were stuff like this have happened, I said sometimes it get to bad writing, because those plot devises itself to defeat a character are blow out of proportion, some could say How Kakuuzu and Sasori got killed.
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Old 2007-07-11, 12:07   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Of course, with a particular set of circumstances Konohamaru can defeat Jiraiya. Those circumstances are better known as plot devise, and sometimes get to the point of bad writing.

Either way, this thread is not asking about who can defeat who, this is about who is weaker, Deidara by own admission admitted Sasori to be stronger than him. Kisame admitted the same with Itachi.
Much like Itachi admitted weakness in regard to Jiraiya?

Nothing is guaranteed and everyone can be defeated... especially when facing opponents that close to them in power. That's part of what makes Naruto a good story. No one is truly safe from defeat.

As for plot devices... every story ever written uses plot devices. Having a particular set of circumstances is what all stories are built on, so pointing out "Hey, that's a plot device" is pointless. Unless, the point you're making is that the suspension of disbelief is not there. Then, the plot the device is poorly implemented. For example, if Konohamaru defeated Jiraiya, the circumstances would have to EXTRAORDINARY to suspend the readers disbelief. For Deidara to defeat Sasori doesn't seem like that far of a stretch considering the strength both have been shown to have.

So are you saying there is no way to make certain matches believable if the "weaker" character wins in a battle between Atakasuki members?
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Old 2007-07-11, 14:24   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
Much like Itachi admitted weakness in regard to Jiraiya?
He didn’t say that, so don’t pass your bias interpretations as facts, once again this is talking about strength not about defeat (which was what Itachi talked about in the first place), if you care to do so, go and check the other thread, so you don’t bring your bitterness over the Jiraiya/Itachi debate here, that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

Quote:
Nothing is guaranteed and everyone can be defeated... especially when facing opponents that close to them in power. That's part of what makes Naruto a good story. No one is truly safe from defeat.

As for plot devices... every story ever written uses plot devices. Having a particular set of circumstances is what all stories are built on, so pointing out "Hey, that's a plot device" is pointless. Unless, the point you're making is that the suspension of disbelief is not there. Then, the plot the device is poorly implemented. For example, if Konohamaru defeated Jiraiya, the circumstances would have to EXTRAORDINARY to suspend the readers disbelief. For Deidara to defeat Sasori doesn't seem like that far of a stretch considering the strength both have been shown to have.

So are you saying there is no way to make certain matches believable if the "weaker" character wins in a battle between Atakasuki members?
No, you got me wrong, if the characters has a very large line of difference in power, and in top of that the fight are made in such a manner that one of the sides stop acting as they should and begin to do things in questionable ways, then the plot is not believable, or just bad writing. As you said this is case of a poor plot devise.

And then, I was telling you that if we are talking about circumstances than this is correct, anyone can defeat anyone, but this have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, This thread is asking about the weaker shinoby, not about who can defeat who, because that is an uncertainty, however what is not uncertain between some members, is who is stronger than whom.

If you begin to create circumstances, then the character that appeals you the most will end up as the winner, so basically, we have to set aside circumstances in a probable fight between 2 people, and judge strength based on what we have been shown, not to compare them, rather, just to have an objective view based on Cunin and, Power, and try to avoid who could fight who (because of Forums rules), as for instance, some could say Deidara could defeat Sasori right now. Even if for others Sasori is much stronger than Deidara. and while saying Deidara can defeat Sasori has not base, just an point of view base on what you could do as a writer, Saying Sasoir is stronger than Deidara does have a base.



**Let me remind you all that Vs. threads are not allowed, and I bet mods are keeping a close eye on this thread.

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Old 2007-07-11, 14:52   Link #67
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because of circumstances and akatsuki being so diverse it is impossible to say who is stronger than who.
I think hidan would have a much easyer time killing sasuke than deidara is now.
shikamaru only beat him because he watched how his technique worked when hidan killed asuma. sasuke would not have that advantage and his sharingan and cursed seal would both be useless.
however we saw sasori get gayed by two chicks jsut because one had more experience.
all on the circumstances and who they are fighting but as for weakest id say none they are all "akatsuki level'
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Old 2007-07-11, 15:13   Link #68
Tettsuo
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
He didn’t say that, so don’t pass your bias interpretations as facts, once again this is talking about strength not about defeat (which was what Itachi talked about in the first place), if you care to do so, go and check the other thread, so you don’t bring your bitterness over the Jiraiya/Itachi debate here, that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
Actually, it was simply a jab at you and your viewpoint on interpreting what characters are saying. So, don't get your panties in a bundle, it's not that serious.
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
No, you got me wrong, if the characters has a very large line of difference in power, and in top of that the fight are made in such a manner that one of the sides stop acting as they should and begin to do things in questionable ways, then the plot is not believable, or just bad writing. As you said this is case of a poor plot devise.

And then, I was telling you that if we are talking about circumstances than this is correct, anyone can defeat anyone, but this have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, This thread is asking about the weaker shinoby, not about who can defeat who, because that is an uncertainty, however what is not uncertain between some members, is who is stronger than whom.

If you begin to create circumstances, then the character that appeals you the most will end up as the winner, so basically, we have to set aside circumstances in a probable fight between 2 people, and judge strength based on what we have been shown, not to compare them, rather, just to have an objective view based on Cunin and, Power, and try to avoid who could fight who (because of Forums rules), as for instance, some could say Deidara could defeat Sasori right now. Even if for others Sasori is much stronger than Deidara. and while saying Deidara can defeat Sasori has not base, just an point of view base on what you could do as a writer, Saying Sasoir is stronger than Deidara does have a base.



**Let me remind you all that Vs. threads are not allowed, and I bet mods are keeping a close eye on this thread.

----
Every fight in Naruto is highly dependent on circumstances! What manga are you reading?

So far we've seen only Deidara and Oro clowned by Itachi. But, we have no idea how Oro or Deidara would fair against the rest. Maybe Kakuzu would clown Itachi in a fight, who knows!? Hidan is practically unkillable, so we have no idea if poison would even cause him any problems.... and the list could go on forever....

None of the above takes into account terrain, location or state of mind of the characters. So yes, circumstances make a HUGE difference in who is weakest and in many cases in the manga, is the deciding factor.
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Old 2007-07-11, 16:00   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
Actually, it was simply a jab at you and your viewpoint on interpreting what characters are saying. So, don't get your panties in a bundle, it's not that serious.
Basically it was you bitterness crying out over a debate in another thread that has nothing to do with this, still you needed to touch it here.

Also there is little to nothing about the topic to Interpret what a character is saying, even note that I have not even made a comparison on who is stronger, I just made a specific comment to your post that is deviating from the Topic.


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Originally Posted by Tettsuo View Post
Every fight in Naruto is highly dependent on circumstances! What manga are you reading?

So far we've seen only Deidara and Oro clowned by Itachi. But, we have no idea how Oro or Deidara would fair against the rest. Maybe Kakuzu would clown Itachi in a fight, who knows!? Hidan is practically unkillable, so we have no idea if poison would even cause him any problems.
I’m gong to ask you better, What Thread are you reading? Have you even bother to read what the thread starter said? This is about weakest, not about fight, This is not about Itachi Vs. Deidara, or Kisame vs. Sasori. In fact check all the post before this, basically, you are the only one talking about Vs, fights between Akatsuki.

Fights are highly dependant on circumstances, but this is not talking about matching one Akatsuki member against another Akatsuki member, because I Agree that anyone can be the winner between these characters when you are referring to a fight.

Quote:
None of the above takes into account terrain, location or state of mind of the characters. So yes, circumstances make a HUGE difference in who is weakest and in many cases in the manga, is the deciding factor.
No it doesn’t, because Shikamaru defeated Hidan, when Hidan was stronger than Shikamaru, or Naruto defeated Kakuzu, just because Kakuuzu had already taking a toll against the other Konoha Nin, or Sasori was defeated by Chiyo and Sakura, whereas Sasori was clearly stronger than both of them combined, and I could go on and on, about it, bottom line is the one that loose a fight doesn’t mean he is the weakest.


--- Going back to the real topic, we could have an Idea of Who are the weakest member: as of now I have the Akatsuki in two groups from weakest to stronger, Group 1, Kauuzu, Hidan And Kisame, and Group 2 Itachi, Deidara and Sasori. It could be that the paring can define who is stronger than whom: Sasori was stronger than Deidara, Deidara is Stronger than Obito (while I’m very skeptic about this one), Itachi stronger than Kisame, Kakuuzu stronger than Hidan.
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Old 2007-07-11, 16:27   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Going back to the real topic, we could have an Idea of Who are the weakest member: as of now I have the Akatsuki in two groups from weakest to stronger, Group 1, Kauuzu, Hidan And Kisame, and Group 2 Itachi, Deidara and Sasori. It could be that the paring can define who is stronger than whom: Sasori was stronger than Deidara, Deidara is Stronger than Obito (while I’m very skeptic about this one), Itachi stronger than Kisame, Kakuuzu stronger than Hidan.
Heheh...you meant Tobi right?

But yeah, I'd say there's no denying that there's differences in power among the Akatsuki members because even the members themselves acknowledge it. You can't really say who'll beat who or define a strict ladder ranking, but not all the members are equal in strength that's for sure.

I have a hard time determining Kisame's strength. He admits that he is lower than Itachi in power but other than that has been shown to be a very competent fighter. He might actually be more on par with Deidara and Sasori than Kakuzu or Hidan. The AL, Zetsu, Tobi and the unknown are of course all wildcards, but I'd guess that only the AL will possibly have a strength that exceeds Itachi's.
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Old 2007-07-11, 17:17   Link #71
Suna no tate
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I disagree. Just cause kisame thinks he's weaker than itachi doesn't mean he actually is. I've been more impressed with kisame's abilities than with itachi's. Itachi's has stipulations and conditions which can be exposed and addressed by skilled fighters, while kisame seems to in general have little to no flaws that are immediately exposable. We'll have to see more of course, but if I could choose between their abilities, I'd go with kisame's simply because of the great physical potential.

Concernign sasori, how can you put him on par with deidara and hidan? Sasori is at least itachi's level if not greater. One hit deaths, not to mention a potential protection from genjutsu since he's inside a puppet suit as well as the ability to mask his techniqes from the sharingan. Sasori is by far one of the most dangerous characters of them all.
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Old 2007-07-11, 18:12   Link #72
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I disagree. Just cause kisame thinks he's weaker than itachi doesn't mean he actually is. I've been more impressed with kisame's abilities than with itachi's. Itachi's has stipulations and conditions which can be exposed and addressed by skilled fighters, while kisame seems to in general have little to no flaws that are immediately exposable. We'll have to see more of course, but if I could choose between their abilities, I'd go with kisame's simply because of the great physical potential.

Concernign sasori, how can you put him on par with deidara and hidan? Sasori is at least itachi's level if not greater. One hit deaths, not to mention a potential protection from genjutsu since he's inside a puppet suit as well as the ability to mask his techniqes from the sharingan. Sasori is by far one of the most dangerous characters of them all.
No one has had the ability to truely measure itachi's abilities, the writer is likely saving it for his encounter with sasuke. They want to save the truely fantasic material and action for the battle that they have been building up ever since the very beginning of the entire series. I would expect itachi to be the second most powerful within Ak if not the most powerful. It is likely we won't see his true ability till he encounters sasuke, with that said they will probably save some special abilities of sasuke's for that battle as well. It will take quite some time but expect it to be the second if not the best battle within the entire series history.

Last edited by Hunter; 2007-07-12 at 06:09.
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Old 2007-07-11, 19:58   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I disagree. Just cause kisame thinks he's weaker than itachi doesn't mean he actually is. I've been more impressed with kisame's abilities than with itachi's. Itachi's has stipulations and conditions which can be exposed and addressed by skilled fighters, while kisame seems to in general have little to no flaws that are immediately exposable. We'll have to see more of course, but if I could choose between their abilities, I'd go with kisame's simply because of the great physical potential.
Well Kisame has been Itachi's partner for a while so they would know eachothers strengths and weaknesses quite well so if Kisame believes he's weaker than Itachi he most probably is since he's most likely basing that judgement from the time he's spent with Itachi and what he has seen him do and compared it to his own abilities.

Itachi has stipulations and conditions which can be addressed because most of the people you have seen him face know about the sharingan and many of these people are from Konoha that knew measures to help counter/avoid sharingan (apart from Chiyo). A clan ability that is well known wouldnt be hard to take counter measures against whereas Kisame is more of a mystery to people hes facing since he wasnt origionally from Konoha and little is known about him compared to Itachi.
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Old 2007-07-12, 08:32   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Basically it was you bitterness crying out over a debate in another thread that has nothing to do with this, still you needed to touch it here.
I can't be bitter... cause I'm right. LOL!
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Also there is little to nothing about the topic to Interpret what a character is saying, even note that I have not even made a comparison on who is stronger, I just made a specific comment to your post that is deviating from the Topic.
Huh? Was it not brought up that Kisame stated in some way that Itachi was more powerful than himself? Personally, I'd take that at face value... how about yerself?
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I’m gong to ask you better, What Thread are you reading? Have you even bother to read what the thread starter said? This is about weakest, not about fight, This is not about Itachi Vs. Deidara, or Kisame vs. Sasori. In fact check all the post before this, basically, you are the only one talking about Vs, fights between Akatsuki.
How exactly can you determine "strength" without bringing up who'd win in a fight? Do you propose they lift weights to show who is the strongest (thereby giving us information on who is the weakest)? The only way to tell is in a fight. In fact, I'd sayI'm positive Kisame is physcially stronger than Itachi (and most others in Atakasuki). He also has a crapload more of chakra than the others. So does that make Itachi the "weaker" of the two? Certainly not. So how about YOU read the topic and try to use some brainpower and see where I'm coming from.
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Fights are highly dependant on circumstances, but this is not talking about matching one Akatsuki member against another Akatsuki member, because I Agree that anyone can be the winner between these characters when you are referring to a fight.
So how exactly do you determine who is weaker without pitting them against one another? There is no other way besides a one on one matchup to determine that.
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No it doesn’t, because Shikamaru defeated Hidan, when Hidan was stronger than Shikamaru, or Naruto defeated Kakuzu, just because Kakuuzu had already taking a toll against the other Konoha Nin, or Sasori was defeated by Chiyo and Sakura, whereas Sasori was clearly stronger than both of them combined, and I could go on and on, about it, bottom line is the one that loose a fight doesn’t mean he is the weakest.
Stonger how exactly? What makes a character stronger than another? Jutsu strength? Physical strength? Brain power? What?

Clearly Hidan was not as intelligent as Shikamaru, but I'm sure he could bench press more than Shikamaru (LOL!). Maybe it's his cool ability that made him stronger... but didn't save him in a fight with the so-called weaker Shikamaru.

Sasori, in my opinion, made a choice to die. So I would agree that in pretty much every way he was "stronger" than both Chiyo and Sakura.

Kakuzu lost two hearts... he still had 3 left. He wasn't all that damaged in the fight against the other Konoha nins. Naruto was also just coming back from some serious training, so he wasn't in the tip top shape either. Yet, he clearly kicked Kakuzu's butt. But, you'd still consider Kakuzu stronger? What does Naruto have to do to prove he's stronger than Kakuzu? Naruto had the more powerful jutsu, the brains to trick Kakuzu and the physical strength to endure his own jutsu so he could deliver it. But, you'd still consider Kakuzu stronger... that makes no sense.
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Old 2007-07-12, 11:11   Link #75
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Huh? Was it not brought up that Kisame stated in some way that Itachi was more powerful than himself? Personally, I'd take that at face value... how about yerself?
The difference here is that is direct comment that put Kisames saying Itachi is superior than Him as also Kisames knows Itachi since 10 years ago, Yeah this is face value because the quote is not debatable, what you are comparing it to has so many flaws (like Itachi saying only another Uchiha user can defeat his Jutsu) that is not even funny to debate about it.

Quote:
How exactly can you determine "strength" without bringing up who'd win in a fight? Do you propose they lift weights to show who is the strongest (thereby giving us information on who is the weakest)? The only way to tell is in a fight. In fact, I'd sayI'm positive Kisame is physcially stronger than Itachi (and most others in Atakasuki). He also has a crapload more of chakra than the others. So does that make Itachi the "weaker" of the two? Certainly not. So how about YOU read the topic and try to use some brainpower and see where I'm coming from.
By judging what have they done so far? Jutsus, Intelligence, the opponents they haves fought? And not making made up fights? And having in mind what I already told you that in a fight anyone can win? By pitting them in a made up fight, the one that is going to win is the one you want to win, period. I can put Tobi beating every character in the entire Manga without even seen him fight, because made up fights by fans tends to do this.

Once again read the topic, where you are coming from is just trying to say everyone is equal in strength whereas this is just false. There are clearly members in Akatsuki stronger than others, the question is how does it goes.

Quote:
So how exactly do you determine who is weaker without pitting them against one another? There is no other way besides a one on one matchup to determine that.
By judging each other power and what they have accomplish so far. And even like that is almost impossible to do so, reason why there is really no real linear ladder. but a fight just fall under a popularity contest.

Quote:
Stonger how exactly? What makes a character stronger than another? Jutsu strength? Physical strength? Brain power? What?
All of those combined. But specifically Jutsu Power and Brain power.

But Jutsu power practically overtakes anything else, the fight of Shikamaru with Tayuya showed that Intelligence only helps out up to some point.

Quote:
Clearly Hidan was not as intelligent as Shikamaru, but I'm sure he could bench press more than Shikamaru (LOL!). Maybe it's his cool ability that made him stronger... but didn't save him in a fight with the so-called weaker Shikamaru.
The weaker Shikamaru pwn because he already had prepared a tramp for Hidan (geez, Shiakamaru even Developed a new Jutsu for his second fight) and knew Hidan secret, if Shikamaru would had confronted Hidan in a situation similar to the first time they saw him, Shikamaru would had died, So this fight is someone Weaker wining because of circumstances, and that’s why Fighting and been stronger are two different things as fights can’t really be used to measure the weakest, and even less when all of this Akatsuki all basically around the same level.

Quote:
Sasori, in my opinion, made a choice to die. So I would agree that in pretty much every way he was "stronger" than both Chiyo and Sakura.
Case in point, the one that lost was the Stronger here.

Quote:
Kakuzu lost two hearts... he still had 3 left. He wasn't all that damaged in the fight against the other Konoha nins. Naruto was also just coming back from some serious training, so he wasn't in the tip top shape either. Yet, he clearly kicked Kakuzu's butt. But, you'd still consider Kakuzu stronger? What does Naruto have to do to prove he's stronger than Kakuzu? Naruto had the more powerful jutsu, the brains to trick Kakuzu and the physical strength to endure his own jutsu so he could deliver it. But, you'd still consider Kakuzu stronger... that makes no sense.
As my view Kakuuzu was beaten due to the fact that plot induce him to act stupid, whereas you agree with this one or not, is I’m not something I’m going to debate, I agree it was my bad to include his fight with the others, but I think it had an effect.

Naruto still was weaker than Kakuuzu, and Kakuuzu lost because the plot made him lost, One Jutsu that could barely use, is not something that you could use to say he is stronger. there were lots of things Kakuuzu stopped doing to fight Naruto (for Nartuo convenience) and in addition he fall for a trick he should not have.
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Old 2007-07-12, 17:43   Link #76
Kowai
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is strength toughness? or who would win in a fight?
anyone in akatsuki can atleast beat 1 other member so it is impossible.
hidan, tobi, kakuzu appear to be able to take the most of a sh1t k1cking and keep t1cking
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Old 2007-07-12, 19:33   Link #77
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Name someone who could beat itachi, from those who we've seen fight?
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Old 2007-07-12, 19:41   Link #78
Suna no tate
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Spoiler for manga and akatsuki stuff:
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Old 2007-07-12, 20:07   Link #79
Rurik
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Suna, the is no need for spoiler in this thread.

Also, still your comparison is different, Neither Neeji or Naruto knew their respective rivals that well (heck..Naruto knew little or nothing about Sharingan)

And Soujiru was not better than Shisio, Soujiru just had no killer intent which made him almost impossible to read for Kenshin.
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Old 2007-07-12, 23:42   Link #80
Nintendo
start thinkin bout clones
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles,California
Age: 30
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they are all pretty weak, they die by stupid reasons.
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