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Old 2007-04-23, 03:28   Link #1
Nergol
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How Credible is This "Global Warming?"

Literally.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101385_pf.html

Saving the Earth: The Biodiesel Bus Blog

Singer Sheryl Crow and environmentalist Laurie David have been traveling across America on a two-week Stop Global Warming College Tour, which winds up today at George Washington University. Crow and David (co-producer of the documentary "An Inconvenient Truth" and wife of "Curb Your Enthusiasm's" Larry David) have been touting their cause and chronicling their travels in a rather idiosyncratic blog. Here, on Earth Day, are a few excerpts:

. . .

Crow (4/19, Springfield, Tenn.): I have spent the better part of this tour trying to come up with easy ways for us all to become a part of the solution to global warming. Although my ideas are in the earliest stages of development, they are, in my mind, worth investigating. One of my favorites is in the area of forest conservation which we heavily rely on for oxygen. I propose a limitation be put on how many squares of toilet paper can be used in any one sitting. Now, I don't want to rob any law-abiding American of his or her God-given rights, but I think we are an industrious enough people that we can make it work with only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where 2 to 3 could be required.


Well, there you have it. Liberals find it unacceptable for conservatives to want to insert themselves into everybody's bedroom, but of course it's okay for them to insert themselves into everybody's bathroom. Because there's a crisis, of course...

Well not me, you pinko asshats! You'll get my TP when you pry it out of my cold, dead hands!

In my best Braveheart voice: "Yeuh may take our lives, but you'll never take... our CHARMIN!!!!"
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Old 2007-04-23, 05:14   Link #2
felix
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Global Warming is a joke..
The so call evironmentalist that analyse the problem always manage to see how X happend several milion years ago but they fail to see that this climate change has been happening so often even long before cars ever even existed.
Global Warming is the product of a closed mind.. the earth is much bigger then they care to believe.
While poplution is bad it's not the catastrophical apocolipse scenarios we should be concern with.
By focusing all of our attention to this politicly correct threory we are ignoring all the little things.
This toilet paper depreviasion is more aimed as a comercial then anything practical.
Who cares if we save the earth if there's going to be nothing worth saving in the end.
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Old 2007-04-23, 05:18   Link #3
WanderingKnight
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Global warming is just a coincidence. The Earth has periodically changed its temperature throughout the ages, just like the two Ice Ages. We're just unlucky enough to be living in a warming period.

The bad thing about it is that's being used as a tool for the manipulation of ignorant people.
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Old 2007-04-23, 05:58   Link #4
Jinto
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The problem here isn't that it happens, but the speed it happens with... The non-sense talk about toilet paper is really amusing.

Btw. could this thread be renamed? Because at the moment, it is prone to flames. It is quite biased from the start and imo we had such threads already (maybe merge?). In these threads some "scientifical" answers (sources/citations) were provided, that give a better understanding of the matter than the statements provided here.

(I don't like these pro/contra campaigns that are often so off topic, that the people get a completely wrong idea of the actual problem)

edit:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...ing.html#INTRO

(actually I wanted to find the thread, but I did not find it... so I want to provide that link instead.)
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Last edited by Jinto; 2007-04-23 at 06:35.
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Old 2007-04-23, 09:34   Link #5
Aoie_Emesai
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...by the end of the 21st century, we could expect to see carbon dioxide concentrations of anywhere from 490 to 1260 ppm (75-350% above the pre-industrial concentration).
That's some wild expectations there. Wat kind of prediction is that when you give a enormous range like that? Are they expecting for a world wide carbon emission spree?

If you use this page as my source of info for carbon emission, even though it is a 1999 data. Since 1950, the world carbon emission has increased at least 393%.

Quote:
So, the concern is not with the fact that we have a greenhouse effect, but whether human activities are leading to an enhancement of the greenhouse effect.
I wonder why peoples don't use this phrase to discuss global warming, instead of using the phrase "we are producing too much Carbon Dioxide."
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Old 2007-04-23, 09:43   Link #6
ibreatheanime
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I am not going to pretend to be an expert on global warming. I believe that we should try not to polute our earth, since we live here, however some of this global warming is being blown out of proportion. Yes we have poluted, and our CFC's (which are not in use in most parts of the world anymore) have destroyed the ozone. (CFC's lifespan is around 100 years)

Volcano's, although they are natural occuring things, also realease pollutants. Our planet has gone through warmning and cooling trends over the years. How do we know that "Global Warming" which has caused so much irrational fear is not just a warming trend.

Also the U.S. is put under alot of pressure to stop polluting (which I support) however how come other countries like China are not also pressured to stop polluting?
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Old 2007-04-23, 09:58   Link #7
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
That's some wild expectations there. Wat kind of prediction is that when you give a enormous range like that? Are they expecting for a world wide carbon emission spree?
I suppose, since it is a forecast for over 90 years in the future, they have an optimistic and a pessimistic approximation which define the borders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
If you use this page as my source of info for carbon emission, even though it is a 1999 data. Since 1950, the world carbon emission has increased at least 393%.
Emissions and carbon dioxide actually being in the atmosphere are two different things. Its not 1:1 because of e.g. the oceans (but its enough though to say there is considerable impact on the atmosphere)

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Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
I wonder why peoples don't use this phrase to discuss global warming, instead of using the phrase "we are producing too much Carbon Dioxide."
Because most people don't even realise that (besides it doesn't make a good buzzword... I mean, ever tried to print that on a banner for an environmental demonstration?). Also the answer to that is obvious. The next question would be, does it hurt us? (imo at the speed it is happening, yes)
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Old 2007-04-23, 10:13   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreatheanime View Post
Also the U.S. is put under alot of pressure to stop polluting (which I support) however how come other countries like China are not also pressured to stop polluting?
As a signing member of the Kyoto Protocol, China is under quite a bit of pressure, and they have been criticized for trying to find loopholes and excuses in the agreement. From what I understand of the Protocol, however, the reprecussions are not really that severe, but I could be neglecting some finer detail of the agreement.

I'm not really of the opinion that global warming is as big a deal as some are making it out to be, no matter how freaky the weather is and how much they say it's linked to global warming. In addition, everything I've heard uttered about the Greenhouse Effect makes it sound like humans made it all happen. My astronomy professor has instructed me differently - it's something that's been here, and because it's here, the Earth is as it is. If not for it, the planet might look something like... Venus. And that's not happy.

So pollution is bad, and it's certainly not helping the health of humans, but I don't think we're in danger of destrying the planet in one stroke with it. Personally, given present circumstances, I'd be more worried about the possibility of nuclear war.
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Old 2007-04-23, 10:17   Link #9
ibreatheanime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandrite View Post
As a signing member of the Kyoto Protocol, China is under quite a bit of pressure, and they have been criticized for trying to find loopholes and excuses in the agreement. From what I understand of the Protocol, however, the reprecussions are not really that severe, but I could be neglecting some finer detail of the agreement.

I'm not really of the opinion that global warming is as big a deal as some are making it out to be, no matter how freaky the weather is and how much they say it's linked to global warming. In addition, everything I've heard uttered about the Greenhouse Effect makes it sound like humans made it all happen. My astronomy professor has instructed me differently - it's something that's been here, and because it's here, the Earth is as it is. If not for it, the planet might look something like... Venus. And that's not happy.

So pollution is bad, and it's certainly not helping the health of humans, but I don't think we're in danger of destrying the planet in one stroke with it. Personally, given present circumstances, I'd be more worried about the possibility of nuclear war.
EXACTUALLY! THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING!
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Old 2007-04-23, 10:28   Link #10
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandrite View Post
...
I'm not really of the opinion that global warming is as big a deal as some are making it out to be, no matter how freaky the weather is and how much they say it's linked to global warming.
Then you maybe want to read the link I provided... or take look on the wikipage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandrite View Post
In addition, everything I've heard uttered about the Greenhouse Effect makes it sound like humans made it all happen. My astronomy professor has instructed me differently - it's something that's been here, and because it's here, the Earth is as it is.
Actually people are talking about enhancement of the green house effect. You must have misunderstood that a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Alexandrite View Post
If not for it, the planet might look something like... Venus. And that's not happy.
You mixed that up, on the Venus there is actually more greenhous effect than on earth. Besides Venus is closer to the sun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandrite View Post
So pollution is bad, and it's certainly not helping the health of humans, but I don't think we're in danger of destrying the planet in one stroke with it. Personally, given present circumstances, I'd be more worried about the possibility of nuclear war.
Well, that we will see once the climate in different regions changes considerably. I wonder what the impact on humans will be. Is it worth to fight wars for something like e.g. clean drinking water... we will see.
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Old 2007-04-23, 10:49   Link #11
Syaoran
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Pffff... Global warming...
In my country (and many other I believe) it's used as an argument in politics. They only think in short terms and how to win the elections!

What else could get you more votes if you're the political party who's gonna save the ignorant mass from a common fobia created by the media and government?

Some use climate issues to get a factory closed, others use it to raise taxes to save the world from plastic and CO².

We've to pay lots of taxes on fuel for our homes and cars, because we (the people who have to work) pollute the earth.

It's bullshit. When the dinosaurs ruled the earth, the whole planet knew (sub-)tropical temperatures and the equator area was one big desert.
Then came ice ages with half of the northern hemisphere freezing (dunno about the south) and the equatorial regions having a moderate climate.

If we pollute so much, what are they gonna do when Mount St.Helen erupts again? Last time it managed to make earth temperature drop by > 1°C even though billions of m³ of CO² were released in the atmosphere (green house? don't think so).

They should be concerned what to do when Yellow Stone Park erupts. That one is a global killer, annihilating the human race. That volcanic area will kill everything. If not by the blast and shockwave, it will be done by the atomic winter that's gonna follow after the atmosphere gets filled to the top with CO² and other gasses stored under the earth's crust.
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Old 2007-04-23, 10:50   Link #12
Kinny Riddle
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Here we go again, the so called "Environmentalist Maoist Red Guards" against the "Fascist Media" debate over something so trivial. All this movement is just asking people to have a look at their lifestyle and adjust it a bit so the planet can be a bit more "comfortable", but the global warming-denialists try to blow things out of proportion by portraying the environmentalists as fanatics on par with al-Qaeda. (I do realize I'm over-simplifying things here, so please bear with me )

Everytime some scientist say something about climate change, they're portrayed as scaremongers when the scientific facts speak for themselves. Every "anti-warming" scientist's data/documentary, like that one shown in Channel 4 in UK a while ago, has not been subject to the scientific scrutiny that more "impartial" scientific documentaries do on the so-called "Liberal Media" like Discovery Channel and NatGeo. Even one of the scientist that got interviewed was unhappy that his words were distorted to suit their needs that the producers actually had to file for a court injunction in order to shut him up. Ironic when the anti-environmentalists were barking about how the environmental-leaning scientists were censoring their views.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...053521,00.html (Yes, from a staunchly liberal-leaning "tree-hugging" English paper, don't read it if you don't like it. )

Is asking for measures to reduce pollution, which actually costs less than if business were to continue, so hard to do? Apparently it's so hard that that these "denialists" , in order to preserver their short-sighted profits, would go so far to set up think-tanks to lobby the government against these "Environmental Fundamentalism".
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Old 2007-04-23, 11:02   Link #13
Syaoran
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And what about the US, EU, Japan (and Australia?) spending enourmous amounts of money to reduce CO² and make earth more 'comfortable'?

Our salaries and commodity prices will increase even more, because there's no way we want to earn the same amount of money if prices for products and services increase by 50% to let's say 200% to save our earth.
This will result in an even less favorable economic environment.

In the meanwhile, the countries who don't give a shit about it, like China, Russia, South America, Africa will see a big opportunity for mass production at low prices since they don't care if their electricity comes from burning charcoals or if it comes from solar panels. The clean energy won't be able to provide them enough energy anyway.

What will we be like by then? The balance gets reverted. We bite in the dust, while non-tree-huggers get a comfortable life-style we had before investing in clean energy & co.

Changing little things around your home or clean cars won't make much difference if the taxes you'll pay will not be spent on good initiatives anyway and having an industry who won't drop their profits so our grandchildren will still know what it's like to drink water instead of whatever chemical that will be used instead.

Human beings become monsters when they've the power to do something.
I don't believe there will be any improvement at all. I even think it won't stop getting worse and that I'll have to get into the army within 20 years for World War III (The war for resources like water, fuel, minerals)
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Old 2007-04-23, 11:07   Link #14
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
Pffff... Global warming...
In my country (and many other I believe) it's used as an argument in politics. They only think in short terms and how to win the elections!
Well, you are able to think for your own right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
What else could get you more votes if you're the political party who's gonna save the ignorant mass from a common fobia created by the media and government?
Or sell the environment friendly technology...

Point is that it doesn't make the problem less problematic. Well, unless you can predict the future correctly, I#ld rather listen to the scientists on that matter (most of them agree about the artificial enhancement of green house effect)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
Some use climate issues to get a factory closed, others use it to raise taxes to save the world from plastic and CO².
You are free to provide different solutions (run for election ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
We've to pay lots of taxes on fuel for our homes and cars, because we (the people who have to work) pollute the earth.
Thats right, they force you to buy environmental friendly cars and homes and stuff with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
It's bullshit. When the dinosaurs ruled the earth, the whole planet knew (sub-)tropical temperatures and the equator area was one big desert.
Then came ice ages with half of the northern hemisphere freezing (dunno about the south) and the equatorial regions having a moderate climate.
But you need to consider time. If it takes 1000s of years, the global ecosystem can more or less adapt to it. However, adaption is harder the faster the warming is.

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Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
If we pollute so much, what are they gonna do when Mount St.Helen erupts again? Last time it managed to make earth temperature drop by > 1°C even though billions of m³ of CO² were released in the atmosphere (green house? don't think so).
Actually thats a natural source. And yes it can affect climate. Btw. the ashes of the volcane temporarily make earth cooler. After the ashes fell out of the atmosphere, CO2 remains which heats up earth - so the cool down is only short termed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
They should be concerned what to do when Yellow Stone Park erupts. That one is a global killer, annihilating the human race. That volcanic area will kill everything. If not by the blast and shockwave, it will be done by the atomic winter that's gonna follow after the atmosphere gets filled to the top with CO² and other gasses stored under the earth's crust.
Its not the CO2 thats causing the "atomic" winter but the ashes that darken the atmosphere and raise the atmospheric albeto (that way much of sun's heat is reflected to space before it reaches ground). However, when the ashes fell out of the atmosphere the CO2 remains longer, which raises temperature on long term.
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Old 2007-04-23, 11:19   Link #15
Fome
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In the meanwhile, the countries who don't give a shit about it, like China, Russia, South America, Africa will see a big opportunity for mass production at low prices since they don't care if their electricity comes from burning charcoals or if it comes from solar panels. The clean energy won't be able to provide them enough energy anyway
I find it laughable that you are concerned about the US falling behind in exports. Almost all of the consumer products you buy in the US is imported from China, and most well-known American brands use outsourcing. The only thing the United States exports with impunity is weapons technology, music, and movies. Sorry, but it just pisses me off that people could point fingers at China for overuse of natural resources and unclean energy, then go to the store to buy Chinese-manufactured clothing and electronics at low prices. The fact is, these Americans are living in luxury at the expense of cheap Chinese labor. You know what the Chinese factory worker gets for his participation in unclean manufactoring? Enough money to eat and have a place to sleep.


Also, I thought Gore has addressed the "natural cycle" argument multiple times through the analysis of arctic core samples. He says that the CO2 levels are the highest they've ever been, INCLUDING the regular spikes that occur every 60,000 years (or something like that.) But meh, I still don't know enough.
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Old 2007-04-23, 11:21   Link #16
Syaoran
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Yeah well... you get the idea. Aside CO² there's not less crap in a volcanic eruption than economic production. I know CO² won't block sunlight, but the other crap does.

There's no miracle solution for this and I'm not the person who's gonna pay twice the price for a product because it's more ecological if it does exactly the same than another one and lots of people will agree.
Money doesn't grow on our backs... lol ... everything runs or falls with money nowadays. As long as people are greedy, nothing will change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
I find it laughable that you are concerned about the US falling behind in exports. Almost all of the consumer products you buy in the US is imported from China, and most well-known American brands use outsourcing. The only thing the United States exports with impunity is weapons technology, music, and movies.
I'm not American... if you prefer, replace US, EU, Japan by the Industrialized countries and replace the other by 3rd world countries and emerging global powers.
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Old 2007-04-23, 11:32   Link #17
Alexandrite
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Originally Posted by Jinto Lin View Post
Then you maybe want to read the link I provided... or take look on the wikipage.

Actually people are talking about enhancement of the green house effect. You must have misunderstood that a little bit.

You mixed that up, on the Venus there is actually more greenhous effect than on earth. Besides Venus is closer to the sun.
Gah. Glorious way to start off the day, and a Monday at that - mixing up and making an ass of myself. Thanks, I'll go reread it.

Quote:
Well, that we will see once the climate in different regions changes considerably. I wonder what the impact on humans will be. Is it worth to fight wars for something like e.g. clean drinking water... we will see.
My cynicism says that people will always find something to kill over, but methinks that's off-topic.
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Old 2007-04-23, 11:35   Link #18
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
I find it laughable that you are concerned about the US falling behind in exports. Almost all of the consumer products you buy in the US is imported from China, and most well-known American brands use outsourcing. The only thing the United States exports with impunity is weapons technology, music, and movies.
Guess he meant the EU/Japan/Australia (export-wise).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
Also, I thought Gore has addressed the "natural cycle" argument multiple times through the analysis of arctic core samples. He says that the CO2 levels are the highest they've ever been, INCLUDING the regular spikes that occur every 60,000 years (or something like that.) But meh, I still don't know enough.

Difference is that Syaoran spoke about a part of earth's history covering 100s of million of years in his post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
Yeah well... you get the idea. Aside CO² there's not less crap in a volcanic eruption than economic production. I know CO² won't block sunlight, but the other crap does.
Well there is, but we cannot stop volcanoes. But we maybe can reduce our own CO2 emissions. (Think about it more in domestic economy terms). When you are forced to buy environmental friendly stuff, guess where it is produced... guess whose economic you are strengthening it with. Everything has two sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
There's no miracle solution for this and I'm not the person who's gonna pay twice the price for a product because it's more ecological if it does exactly the same than another one and lots of people will agree.
Money doesn't grow on our backs... lol ... everything runs or falls with money nowadays. As long as people are greedy, nothing will change.
Well, domestic economy my counter argument again. One just has to raise import taxes for stuff that hurts the planet right?
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Old 2007-04-23, 12:13   Link #19
Kaoru Chujo
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I know how nice it feels to go against the tide, but this ship has already left port and you'd better get aboard. Ten years ago -- even five -- you might have been able to get away with contrarianism, but not now.

Sure, there have always been climate variations, but the people who study climate most closely know this better than you do, and can see how things are trending, and the trends match some of the worse models. The only hope I can see for avoiding the worst problems -- submerged cities, islands (South Pacific), deltas (Bangla Desh), widespread drought (Australia) -- is drastic rollback combined with negative feedback caused by sun-reflecting particulates (lol).

Never underestimate the power of mass hysteria, but there is also a hysteria of opposing the trend. Our hundred-year festival of hydrocarbon use now has to be paid for, that's just how it is. However, I will still keep using as much toilet paper as I want, no matter what a merry band of entertainers says. Lol.
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Old 2007-04-23, 12:49   Link #20
Vexx
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Its like watching 20 people waiting for a WALK light.... 18 see a DON'T WALK but two see a WALK and go because they might get across faster.

It isn't amazing that vested interests in the status quo don't want to have to change... whats amazing is the number of 'flat-earthers' who only stand to lose with the status quo who continue to defend the "vested interest" position rather than the avalanche of accumulated data.

The wound may be natural at the core... but aggravating it by pouring sewage in it isn't too bright, eh? Apparently, a lot of mothers failed to properly teach that one should pick up after oneself....
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