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Old 2007-04-23, 13:28   Link #21
slayer
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The problem with the argument of saying it is pointless and there were two ice ages etc is rather ignorant of an arugment. While natural formations attribute to a build up of green house gases, the problem today is that it is occuring at a much faster rate and has a much more increased production of the such products. Comapring with previous analysis of the ice ages show carbon levels do increase but not as high as the results are today. While saying these carbon increases can be attributed to "natural events", these sorts of claims are likely at best. As such, it depends on where you the readers get the information from and how credible the jorunal/article is. The problem with people who say climate change is not an issue may have recieved a more so bias view of ideal or lower projections than the overall distribution of the entire average. Skewing data like this is popular to invent a new view point towards the idea. The reason why China and India are exempt from kyoto targets is due to their huge population. The UNFCC has recognized this issue and has decided on such. I'm in no way fully saying climate change is happening however, those who fully deny it should consider the sound research that has been done already by the IPCC and NGOs and governmental research boards/panels/committee.
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Old 2007-04-23, 13:50   Link #22
Syaoran
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I hate it when I've to pay for the errors of past generations, especially when someone else says I've to. I'd rather do the same error too since I only live once. Dead people don't care about what's gonna happen anyway.

Ever since that movie called "The day after" everyone suddenly thought we've gotta save the planet before it's to late. It's already too late, so why bother? Those things have been already predicted when I was in elementary school... (late 80's - early 90's)

I still have newspaper articles and such from that time, used for an assignment. Nobody cared except Greenpeace, WWF etc..

Oh well... I've been very negative lately, but that's nothing new for me :3
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Old 2007-04-23, 13:55   Link #23
Fome
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I feel kind of the same way Syaoran. I mean, even though they say big changes can happen within our lifetime, how much could it really affect me personally? I don't live near the ocean. I don't give a damn about other people dying, so long as it doesn't really inconvenience me.
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Old 2007-04-23, 14:03   Link #24
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
Ever since that movie called "The day after" everyone suddenly thought we've gotta save the planet before it's to late. It's already too late, so why bother? Those things have been already predicted when I was in elementary school... (late 80's - early 90's)
You may not stop what is going to happen based on the current technology, that is highly likely, but you can slow it down to the level that you may be able to stop that in the future, or at the least, delay it for many generations to help many more generations live a much better life. Isn't that reason good enough to encourage people in putting more effort on this subject? For me, it definitely is...
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Old 2007-04-23, 14:14   Link #25
ibreatheanime
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Sometimes I do think "Why should I care, I'll be dead by then..." however i know this is a terrible thing to think. Personally I am not a quest to stop polution, however, i try to do simple things like ride my bike rather than a car, recycle, and not buy more than I need.

I do believe that though there are signs of global warming, the media has blown it out of proportion in some causes. I don't think that envormental issues should be used to scare people into voting for someone. However people should all do little things to cut down on polution, not because they are afraid of the ice caps melting, but because earth is our home.
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Old 2007-04-23, 14:57   Link #26
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreatheanime View Post
I do believe that though there are signs of global warming, the media has blown it out of proportion in some causes.
Well the anthropogenic greenhouse gases we blow into the atmosphere will considerably influence the climate in the next decades. However, the full force of the warming is not evident today. For example one just needs to think about the snowy/iced areas in the world. At the moment the white snow and ice areas (arctica/antartica/glacier) reflect very much of the sun's energy back into the space. But these areas are on the retreat, because of global warming. The process of melting absorbs a good portion of energy. But someday all that ice will be gone. Because the smaller the snowy/iced areas grow the more of sun's energy will heat up earth. And without melting ice, there is no energy absorber left. And then we will feel the real thing.
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Old 2007-04-23, 14:58   Link #27
raikage
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Just think of how much oil, how much power humans across the planet use on a daily basis.

Consuming all those resources, shaping the planet to fit ourselves better...it's reasonable to speculate that these actions do have consequences.

How credible is global warming? At this point, it's pretty much Scientists vs people on the Internet, so forgive me if I go with the accredited climatologists.

It is true there is debate over just how much humans are contributing to global climate change vs how much is nature itself -- but we can't control what we can't control. We can influence what is within our power to influence, and I believe we do have a responsibility to at least try.
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Old 2007-04-23, 14:58   Link #28
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
I feel kind of the same way Syaoran. I mean, even though they say big changes can happen within our lifetime, how much could it really affect me personally? I don't live near the ocean. I don't give a damn about other people dying, so long as it doesn't really inconvenience me.
well.. whether or not its our fault, the climate is changing and not to our advantage. It will inconvenience you no matter where you live.
1) The existing food production system will take damage (it already is taking damage).
2) Sea level changes will create population migrations (more people want to live next to you).
3) More pressure on infrastructure, water supply (fresh water already being in short supply).
4) More tropical diseases and pests move into the temperate zones.
5) Collapse of particular ecosystems (fishing supplies) see item 1.
6) Insurance industry pulls out of all risky areas, partial collapse and ripple ramifications on all industry ... government (i.e. taxpayers) get hammered.

So even if you're complete sociopath, this is going to ruin your day personally at some point. Ignorance is only bliss until the tiger has you... eh?
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Old 2007-04-23, 15:03   Link #29
Fome
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Quote:
well.. whether or not its our fault, the climate is changing and not to our advantage. It will inconvenience you no matter where you live.
1) The existing food production system will take damage (it already is taking damage).
2) Sea level changes will create population migrations (more people want to live next to you).
3) More pressure on infrastructure, water supply (fresh water already being in short supply).
4) More tropical diseases and pests move into the temperate zones.
5) Collapse of particular ecosystems (fishing supplies) see item 1.
6) Insurance industry pulls out of all risky areas, partial collapse and ripple ramifications on all industry ... government (i.e. taxpayers) get hammered.

So even if you're complete sociopath, this is going to ruin your day personally at some point. Ignorance is only bliss until the tiger has you... eh?
Yeah, those are all good points. But my thinking is that it will be so gradual that scientists will have developed means to deal with them as they come, to the point that my day-to-day life will be pretty much the same.
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Old 2007-04-23, 15:17   Link #30
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Fome View Post
Yeah, those are all good points. But my thinking is that it will be so gradual that scientists will have developed means to deal with them as they come, to the point that my day-to-day life will be pretty much the same.
I wouldn't count on it. The worst case scenarios are that many of the problems will manifest within the next 10 years or so. There hasn't been much progress made so far to alleviate them, and I don't know if anything will be done in the near future.


As far as I can tell, the question of human causes for global warming are largely irrelevant. The only issues are what the potential effects are, and whether humans can do anything about it. It's already quite obvious that the effects can be devastating; therefore, it sort of behooves us to do what ever we can to prevent them.
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Old 2007-04-23, 15:35   Link #31
Vexx
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I recommend a good book on nonlinear dynamics (sometimes called chaos theory and relating to "areas of instability" or tipping points).
The Earth has existed in a number of "stable phase-space states" since it began.... many of them are untenable for daily life as we're comfortable with. The transitions tend to be abrupt, very abrupt; which is why waiting til its obvious to even Joe Sixpack may be way too late.

That's the problem with having politicians who don't have training in the sciences or technology ... or even if they are... they're owned by powerful interests who prefer things don't change until they can "leave town" after sufficiently looting the populace. In this case, leaving town just means owning the safer spots and keeping the peasants out

edit: in a way, this is like a dress rehearsal for bigger monsters down the road (large asteroid, sun destabilizes, etc). If we can't even pick up after ourselves or adjust our behavior for "minor" changes to our Big Petri Dish, we kind of fail the experiment before it starts.
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Old 2007-04-23, 15:38   Link #32
slayer
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Technology has been developed already with alternative fuel sources and renewable energy. The problem is that it is not very attractive for a new sector in the economy beacuse it is not popular among the public. Because of this, we mainatin the continuous strive to achieve goals that are more or less unrealsitic on a national scale. It can't really be said that their is an ideal method for transition governmental policy and technology standards towards a carbon neutral economy because people don't want to change. The old idea is: why fix something that isn't broken? but the idea here is that people don't realize how deep the wound has been dug. Global warming is not irrevelvant today because their are effects to climate sensitive operations. An example of such case is the wine vinyards in France. Due to the change in termprature, the traditional time for the temprature for grapes to ripe has became earlier. This makes the wine makers in France troubled to narrow down the time to make good wine. However, this is more or less limited to temprature and seasonality.
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Old 2007-04-23, 16:11   Link #33
Fome
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I recommend a good book on nonlinear dynamics (sometimes called chaos theory and relating to "areas of instability" or tipping points).
The Earth has existed in a number of "stable phase-space states" since it began.... many of them are untenable for daily life as we're comfortable with. The transitions tend to be abrupt, very abrupt; which is why waiting til its obvious to even Joe Sixpack may be way too late.

That's the problem with having politicians who don't have training in the sciences or technology ... or even if they are... they're owned by powerful interests who prefer things don't change until they can "leave town" after sufficiently looting the populace. In this case, leaving town just means owning the safer spots and keeping the peasants out

edit: in a way, this is like a dress rehearsal for bigger monsters down the road (large asteroid, sun destabilizes, etc). If we can't even pick up after ourselves or adjust our behavior for "minor" changes to our Big Petri Dish, we kind of fail the experiment before it starts.

I completely agree. But I just happen to believe that I will be among those that "leave town." As for those less fortunate, they have cause for worry.
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Old 2007-04-23, 16:26   Link #34
Syaoran
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Lol ... you be amongst those who l'eave town' ? Forgive me being rude, but no one on this forum will be part of those, including you.

If you were one of them, you'd spend your time with more important matters (financial, business/political relations, business,...) rather than chatting with the peasants gathered on the internet.
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Old 2007-04-23, 16:39   Link #35
Fome
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I guess my definition of those that "leave town" is a little broad. The way I see, many people have lived their lives apathetic to, and often at the expense of, the less fortunate. Think of Hurrican Katrina. Despite all the charity work, the reality is that most people don't honestly care. Even if that kind of event were dramatically magnified, I still think that those in safe positions will not do much about it.
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Old 2007-04-23, 16:50   Link #36
katsumi
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Interesting discussion going on here, I can't but add a few cents to it ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fome View Post
Yeah, those are all good points. But my thinking is that it will be so gradual that scientists will have developed means to deal with them as they come, to the point that my day-to-day life will be pretty much the same.
I don't think your day-to-day-life will stay the same if those points vexx listed come true one way or another. If you live in a country or town uneffected of climate change, it will be the goal to be reached by others, less fortunate than you. And that could get a little too cozy.
In fact, migration caused by less natural resources (water, food, energy etc) does already exist if you take a close look.

Also want to point out, I don't think your reasoning works. If discussion about climate change is down graded or debatted as yes/no extremes, as it is still, chances of financing research that will deal with effects of climate change timely seem considerably low to me. So, no discussion, no financing, no research, no outcome, no cure. To put it very, very simple.

As slayer said, research and developement IS done, but slowly, because it doesn't get you the great cash flow as established methods in industry and life style. There is a lack of willingness to establish certain means of infrastructure to make them effective.

ah, and yeah, I do think there is a certain human influenced climate change. But more importantly, I think we shouldn't waste our resources, because they don't come out of nowhere like an never-ending flow. So, like some said before, my zake on things is: don't make waste without cleaning up afterwards (or at least, try to )
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Old 2007-04-23, 16:54   Link #37
ImClueless
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Global warming is definitely taking place. Is there need for what seems to be mass hysteria? No.

The worst part of it IMO is the fact that now that the masses are scared the whole issue has become politicized and the *bleeping* politicians are making stupid rash decisions a to court for more votes rather than making good decisions that will benefit the country as well as the environment. I don't know about other countries, but in Canada our previous government signed the Kyoto Protocol. Fine we should make an effort to lessen our impact on the environment. However, in their 8 years of government our emissions went up rather than down and I can tell you that the government did diddly squat during that time. Now with a new government, the opposition (the former government) pushed through legislation to reduce the country's emissions by 1/3 in 3 years! They even claim that it will benefit our economy! I find that horribly stupid and short sighted (even though they claim its the long term that they are looking at). Rather than make last minute efforts that never work, there should be a sustained and gradual effort to phase in new technologies and principles to reduce emissions.

I refuse to believe that the world will come to an end if we don't do everything in three years. Its not like a meteorite is heading our way, although it feels like it. Im selfish so while I do want to make an effort to save the environment, I don't believe its impossible to do so without changing my way of life. By that I mean horrible taxing/losing my job, NOT recycling and turning off my computer.
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Old 2007-04-23, 17:07   Link #38
Vexx
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There's growing evidence that even if a large asteroid WERE coming our way, our world system of city-states and governments would be unable to respond due to the stupidity percentage level infesting the branches from top to bottom. Mammal brains seem mostly designed for immediate threats, being able to plan for a large but over-the-horizon problem as a large group .... we have an inconsistent record
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Old 2007-04-23, 20:10   Link #39
Mitsu
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I clearly do not beleave in Global Warmimg I mean doesent earth just do what it does![hey I can type with a broken arm!]
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Old 2007-04-23, 21:38   Link #40
WhiteWings
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I believe it but the method to make a difference is daunting as the problem itself. Too costly and long term for most politicians to shudder in fear.
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