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Old 2007-04-25, 19:59   Link #1
Nergol
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Zero To Loli In Thirteen Years?

Picture it - the fall of 1994...

The members of my very first anime club and I sat around a table at Denny's after a showing discussing with great seriousness wether Sailor Moon lust was pedophilia, and therefore immoral. After all, the girls are supposed to be 14, and lusting after a 14-year-old girl is immoral.

After much heated discussion, consensus was reached that it was not immoral, because even though the Sailor Moon girls are supposed to be 14, they're not drawn to look 14. As one of us pointed out, no 14-year-old girl has legs like that. So, lusting after your darling Ami-chan is perfectly natural, as she looks for all the world like a 20-year-old young woman. Thus, no pedophilia, and no excessive immorality.

Oddly, though, the last few years seem to have brought a reversal of the process.

This caught my attention watching Lucky Star #3, as the twins reveal that their 17th birthday is coming up. 17?! You've got to be kidding me - they barely look twelve! Same in Manabi Straight - these are girls that are supposed to be in high school, but look about - what - ten years old? I suppose in Koi Kaze, in which Nanoka is supposed to be 15 but is drawn to look around 10, it's a little understandable - there to emphasize the age difference factor in the relationship. But in other animes? What has changed in anime fandom that there's been this 180 degree turn in the correlation between character ages and how they're drawn? You could say it's just a greater taste for Loli, but aren't animes like Manabi Straight and Lucky Star as targeted towards girls as they are towards boys? So culd that really account for it?

What do you think?
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Old 2007-04-25, 20:13   Link #2
aorta
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Maybe you've noticed that the twins in Lucky Star also have purple hair which is not exactly a natural color.

None of the adults lok very old either i think it's just a the style of the drawings.
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Old 2007-04-25, 20:53   Link #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nergol View Post
Picture it - the fall of 1994...

The members of my very first anime club and I sat around a table at Denny's after a showing discussing with great seriousness wether Sailor Moon was ia, and therefore immoral. After all, the s are supposed to be 14, and ing after a 14-year-old is immoral.
I wouldn't say it's any more "immoral" than ing after any woman to whom you be unwed, actually. 'Unlawful in the United States' might be more accurate, since it's perfectly fine in many other places.
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Old 2007-04-25, 23:10   Link #4
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Originally Posted by Nergol View Post
Same in Manabi Straight - these are girls that are supposed to be in high school, but look about - what - ten years old?
Don't confuse dwarves and lolis, they're not the same, it's called characters chibification, nothing else (plus they have breasts, therefore are not loli).

Lucky Star #3 might be another story though the manga didn't really touch me therefore I didn't watch the anime either.

Also, from what I remember, both animes are targeted for male audience (actually I'm not 100% sure for LS3).
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Old 2007-04-26, 00:30   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nergol View Post
Picture it - the fall of 1994...

The members of my very first anime club and I sat around a table at Denny's after a showing discussing with great seriousness wether Sailor Moon lust was pedophilia, and therefore immoral. After all, the girls are supposed to be 14, and lusting after a 14-year-old girl is immoral.

After much heated discussion, consensus was reached that it was not immoral, because even though the Sailor Moon girls are supposed to be 14, they're not drawn to look 14. As one of us pointed out, no 14-year-old girl has legs like that. So, lusting after your darling Ami-chan is perfectly natural, as she looks for all the world like a 20-year-old young woman. Thus, no pedophilia, and no excessive immorality.

Oddly, though, the last few years seem to have brought a reversal of the process.

This caught my attention watching Lucky Star #3, as the twins reveal that their 17th birthday is coming up. 17?! You've got to be kidding me - they barely look twelve! Same in Manabi Straight - these are girls that are supposed to be in high school, but look about - what - ten years old? I suppose in Koi Kaze, in which Nanoka is supposed to be 15 but is drawn to look around 10, it's a little understandable - there to emphasize the age difference factor in the relationship. But in other animes? What has changed in anime fandom that there's been this 180 degree turn in the correlation between character ages and how they're drawn? You could say it's just a greater taste for Loli, but aren't animes like Manabi Straight and Lucky Star as targeted towards girls as they are towards boys? So culd that really account for it?

What do you think?
Well basically I have noticed a huge upswing in the loli characters over the past few years and it's increased exponentially with each successive season. At this point I've started to theorize that the current industry concensus is that if you don't have at least one loli character in your series, it will fail. Not only that, but one of them has to be in a major role if not the lead role. Oh and if you want success rather than just "not failure", they have to be the most powerful and/or influential character in the entire series (arguably).

I'm thinking of making a lolicon drinking game where when something happens in relation to the loli phenomenon you have to take a sip. Basically, you won't really see me complaining about it any of it.
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Old 2007-04-26, 00:33   Link #6
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Well dont forget that japan passed alot of laws on what is permissible content in regards to the subject in recent years to protect the public. and they seriously enforce it from what i hear, seriously.
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Old 2007-04-26, 00:49   Link #7
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Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
Well dont forget that japan passed alot of laws on what is permissible content in regards to the subject in recent years to protect the public. and they seriously enforce it from what i hear, seriously.
Tell me that once Kodomo No Jikan airs.
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Old 2007-04-26, 21:22   Link #8
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama View Post
Well basically I have noticed a huge upswing in the loli characters over the past few years and it's increased exponentially with each successive season. At this point I've started to theorize that the current industry concensus is that if you don't have at least one loli character in your series, it will fail. Not only that, but one of them has to be in a major role if not the lead role. Oh and if you want success rather than just "not failure", they have to be the most powerful and/or influential character in the entire series (arguably).

I'm thinking of making a lolicon drinking game where when something happens in relation to the loli phenomenon you have to take a sip. Basically, you won't really see me complaining about it any of it.
Gurren-Lagann is fairly popular among anime fans... although Simon is a shota so I don't really know.
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Old 2007-04-27, 10:00   Link #9
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I dont think laws really care about their "real" age as opposed to what they look like.

Otherwise everyone could bypass the law by saying "oh she looks like 12 but she is really 20!".
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Old 2007-04-27, 10:54   Link #10
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I know women much older who look "loli" in the various aspects of loli.... "drawn to look loli" shows a lot of confusion about how people look and art drawing styles.

Ya'll are confusing drawing styles with ages. If you LOOK at the characters in lucky*star -- they have breasts typical for 17 year old high school girls (none, medium, large), they have hips, they have varying heights, they behave like their age.

... okay .... justification time: *why* is lusting after a 14 yr old girl "immoral"? (especially if the luster themselves are under 18 or even under 21?) Marrying at 14 was perfectly acceptable most of human history -- the only real purpose for delaying that in our present culture is so that more women will get a proper education. Denying them an education might be considered immoral. They're sexually mature and there's nothing wrong with seeing one as attractive.
(note: I'm specifically ignoring the wingnut 'not justified by their own doctrine' contingent who see something they misdefine as "pedo" under every rock).
Fantasizing about being younger and dating a young woman... is that immoral? Again, define why....

Age-of-consent varies wildly in industrialized countries and again, that is simply the age at which they're allowed to have sex without permission or when someone is allowed to ask to have sex with them --- not when other people are allowed to consider them sexy.

(Note: I'm very interested to see how they handle Kodomo no Jikan ... because even allowing for the fact it concerns a very young girl pursuing/torturing/teasing her "omigodthisisn'tright" teacher ... looking at the manga without reading the dialog can look very VERY edgy)
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Old 2007-04-27, 11:59   Link #11
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Originally Posted by Question View Post
I dont think laws really care about their "real" age as opposed to what they look like.

Otherwise everyone could bypass the law by saying "oh she looks like 12 but she is really 20!".
Actually there is a lot of variation in real life. At one time there was a 12 year old living at the end of my street who could have passed for a hot 20 year old, and she knew it. And her 18 year old sister could have passed for a 12 year old.
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Old 2007-04-27, 12:09   Link #12
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It was probably fine back then considering what age you may have been. I liked Ami a lot when I was 16 but I've grown out of it.

Now most of the time when I become fond of an anime character who is around the 9-16 range, I tend to think of them in a little sister way.

This happened with Louise from Zero no Tsukaima and Fate-chan from Nanoha. If I was in their world, I would want to protect them in a brotherly way.
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Old 2007-04-27, 14:22   Link #13
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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
Actually there is a lot of variation in real life. At one time there was a 12 year old living at the end of my street who could have passed for a hot 20 year old, and she knew it. And her 18 year old sister could have passed for a 12 year old.
But anime character don't live at the edge of you street. They are created for a purpose and well-planned down to the color of their eyes. They don't just "happen" to have this or that physical property or character trait. The only question is: which fanbase does the studio want to attract?

That said, I think the problem is still exaggerated, especially because in the otaku world every little girl seems to be immediately branded as "loli" even though they simply don't fit into the definiton (they're not created to turn on)..
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Old 2007-04-27, 23:16   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nergol View Post
Picture it - the fall of 1994...

The members of my very first anime club and I sat around a table at Denny's after a showing discussing with great seriousness wether Sailor Moon lust was pedophilia, and therefore immoral. After all, the girls are supposed to be 14, and lusting after a 14-year-old girl is immoral.

After much heated discussion, consensus was reached that it was not immoral, because even though the Sailor Moon girls are supposed to be 14, they're not drawn to look 14. As one of us pointed out, no 14-year-old girl has legs like that. So, lusting after your darling Ami-chan is perfectly natural, as she looks for all the world like a 20-year-old young woman. Thus, no pedophilia, and no excessive immorality.

Oddly, though, the last few years seem to have brought a reversal of the process.

This caught my attention watching Lucky Star #3, as the twins reveal that their 17th birthday is coming up. 17?! You've got to be kidding me - they barely look twelve! Same in Manabi Straight - these are girls that are supposed to be in high school, but look about - what - ten years old? I suppose in Koi Kaze, in which Nanoka is supposed to be 15 but is drawn to look around 10, it's a little understandable - there to emphasize the age difference factor in the relationship. But in other animes? What has changed in anime fandom that there's been this 180 degree turn in the correlation between character ages and how they're drawn? You could say it's just a greater taste for Loli, but aren't animes like Manabi Straight and Lucky Star as targeted towards girls as they are towards boys? So culd that really account for it?

What do you think?
It doesn't matter if they look 5 years old and they're portrayed as 17 year old girls. It's anime, and that's all that matters. Subject matter solved.
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Old 2007-04-28, 02:11   Link #15
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post

Age-of-consent varies wildly in industrialized countries and again, that is simply the age at which they're allowed to have sex without permission or when someone is allowed to ask to have sex with them --- not when other people are allowed to consider them sexy.
In Canada the age of consent is 14. The world average is 16. The site I'm reading this from also can't figure out whether it is 12, 14, or 18, but I'm dead certain it is 14, the lowest possible average number I know of throughout the world. It can be as low as 12 in a special case regarding age gap. It's screwy that Canada has a potential lower age of consent than Japan. Currently the Conservatives have been working on a bill to raise it to 16, but they attached so damn many riders to it that it's never going to pass.
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Old 2007-04-28, 03:28   Link #16
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Don't forget Canada also has "within two year difference exception" where a 13 year-old and 11 year-old together and still not violate the law. Age difference-wise it's not too bad, but on a purely age basis I think it's wrong. I mean, why put that exception in a place for children that still seem too young to be doing that.

With that said, I think the wrongness within anime lies whether or not the intention to draw a character loli-style is to make them sexual or just childish cute (and which group the studio is trying attract). I think that originally authors/artists tried to apply the childish cuteness to attract people, but then it slowly got twisted into the lolicon thing.
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Old 2007-04-28, 03:40   Link #17
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^ well you can find different fetishes from almost anything and lolicon~ism is one of them ~ true that the original idea behind lolis wasnt to stimulate sexual desires but overtime it became that way (with some people ) ~ as for LS...they are 17 so i dont see any problem with that...age has quite a big impact on loliconism with that you will start to think that tsukasa (however loli she may look) to be a 17 yr old girl knowing that is he real age ~ though its a fact that is needed to be cleared up first...and well most series portray loli's in an "innocent" manner and for me its rather tha i just love loli charaters than thinking about "doing something" with them :3
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Old 2007-04-28, 07:08   Link #18
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There's alot of animation liberties taken in Lucky Star. They don't exactly shoot for "realism". I don't even think about age when I watch it honestly, my eyes spend too much time adjusting to the massive amounts of pink, blue, and purple that bleed into my brain. It burns!!!

Anyways, character sterotypes abound in all media. They rise and fall in cycles. The current "must have" character in newer anime certainly seems to be "people that look much younger than thier age", but to me it's no different than the tons of mecha shows where all the pilots are kids, or all the harem shows where the guy is a spineless wimp who hit the hot woman jackpot. /shrug
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Old 2007-04-29, 03:40   Link #19
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Even if a 12 year old boy sleeps witha 12 year girl. I still call it pedophilia.
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Old 2007-04-29, 04:57   Link #20
Thany
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Originally Posted by Honey_and_Cleaver View Post
Even if a 12 year old boy sleeps witha 12 year girl. I still call it pedophilia.
So both are pedophiles for liking children their age?
Sorry couldn't resist, it was really hilarous

And the loli phenomenum isn't that new, there are cg sites that have been existing for years now that have always more or less be related to loli, like osakana.factory (the frontpage is worksafe, but some of the CGs in the gallery might be a bit 'ecchi', though not going into the 'hentai') and has been on the internet since 1997 (so that makes almost 13 years).
Of course in anime, it's rather new, though I don't believe there isn't that much 'loli content' as some peoples, like the first poster of this thread believe.
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