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Old 2007-05-05, 10:18   Link #21
WanderingKnight
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Oh, now I see. Seems I didn't spend to much time with that iMac, anyways .
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Old 2007-05-10, 13:59   Link #22
Oujirou
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Well if your not interested in buying a retail copy of Windows XP Home, you can probably go to any local computer parts store that's trustworthy and get an OEM version for 1/2 maybe a 3rd of the regular price.
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Old 2007-05-10, 14:41   Link #23
masama
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I need some suggestions. I'm going to buy a new laptop soon, not upgrading.

Should I get one with Vista despite the possible lack of software compatibility (surely there shouldn't be any hardware issues with new machine...), or stick with XP?

Sorry no mac. nothing against it, just I never used one before and I'd rather use something I'm more familiar with.
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Old 2007-05-10, 21:20   Link #24
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Should I get one with Vista despite the possible lack of software compatibility (surely there shouldn't be any hardware issues with new machine...), or stick with XP?
Definitely stick with XP. If you really want to stay along MShit's line, don't go with Vista just yet. Wait till the first service pack or something, or till MShit has sorted out the deal with hardware makers. Of course, I'd suggest not going with MS at all.

Besides, as stated before, Mac OS isn't much of a leap from Windows. It couldn't take more than half a day to learn how to do all the stuff you usually do in Windows. Try going to a friend of yours who has a Mac, spend a couple of hours at it, and see if it's really that difficult.
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Old 2007-05-11, 00:38   Link #25
Ledgem
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Mac's not that difficult. And Macs can run Windows now, so the argument is completely null. When I first switched over to Mac I admit I was running Windows on it with Parallels (virtualization software) for about 60% of the time I was using the system, largely because I was a big baby. I found equivalent software and now I barely go into Windows.

Mac OS is incredibly easy to use. But on the subject of Windows, stick with Windows XP for now. Vista is still getting some issues sorted out.
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Old 2007-05-14, 12:28   Link #26
masama
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guess I'll head off to the local apple shop and have a go with the mac os.
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Old 2007-05-14, 12:53   Link #27
SeijiSensei
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Before you do, you might want to visit Dell. You can buy their machines with XP again, and the light-weight Inspiron 640m I bought my daughter is on-sale these days. At $700 or so with a Duo, 2 GB of RAM, a 120 GB hard drive, a double-sided burner, and a widescreen display, it's a nice package for the price.

I know it's considered de rigeur to bad-mouth Dells, but I've bought machines from them for almost 20 years now, and I've never had any problems. I still have machines from the mid-90's in production today.
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Old 2007-05-19, 12:53   Link #28
grey_moon
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Make a list...

You need to have on one side all of the programs and hardware you are currently running and must have running when you migrate.

On the other side make sure that the software is compatible and there are drivers available.

Now if you are happy with the above then you have to consider is your hardware up to it? If not can you afford (or want to pay) to be able to run it?

Check on forums related to your hardware and Vista, I run nforce stuff so I would do a quick search on nforcershq... If people are complaining heavily then check out why and if it affects you.

One big thing in the news right now is the Vista long goodbye, where it takes ages to delete files...

Basically best thing to do is try to make an informed choice, but if it was me I would not migrate right now... Maybe after SP1 is released... I don't want to beta test Vista on my main PC, I'd rather do it in VMware or something like that if I was being paid to.

Good luck and consider other free options, but only as long as they meet the criteria of your first list. No good installing Ubuntu or SuSE if you must play a Windows only game that won't run in wine...
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Old 2007-05-19, 23:55   Link #29
Jaymz
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Think more about what you want to do with the OS, and less about fancypants features, fanboy rhetoric, Stallman-inspired rants about DRM, etc, etc.

I'm actually the classic example of an early adopter. I'm running Vista on my main PC gaming desktop and work notebook (not many in my company are game to run it yet). I also use OS X on my MacBook. I'm even currently beta testing Windows Home Server and run Server 2003 R2 on a couple of test PC's at home. I've used countless numbers of Linux distros over the years, and even currently administer IBM AIX boxes at work. Very few have the kind of OS experience I've gained over the years.

My advice is to buy a new copy of XP. Probably Media Center, because it gives you all the features of XP Pro, but costs considerably less. Don't go with Vista, unless you're confident you can deal with the various compatibility issues, back your stuff up regularly, and are used to the various issues that early adopters and beta testers face day to day.

As for the Apple argument.. well. Think you'll have compatibility headaches with Vista? They're nothing compared with what you'll face when migrating to OS X. Don't get me wrong - I love OS X to death, and it's definitely my favourite OS to date, but that doesn't change the fact that 99.9999% of all my apps are Windows-only, and I still like playing games on my PC. Unless you really like the OS, and still have a PC for running everything else on, I'd really re-think any Apple-only scenarios for future purchases. Parallels is far too buggy to pay money for, and rebooting for Bootcamp is a real pain in the ass.

Stick with XP. Don't move to Vista until you know you're ready for it.
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Old 2007-05-20, 00:13   Link #30
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymz View Post

As for the Apple argument.. well. Think you'll have compatibility headaches with Vista? They're nothing compared with what you'll face when migrating to OS X.
Hmm isn't it subjective to what the OP does on their PC? If they surf the web, watch anime and check their emails only, then the migration to most desktop OS's won't be that bad...
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Old 2007-05-20, 01:43   Link #31
Ledgem
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I agree with GreyMoon - the specific software that you use should dictate your own experience. If you're heavily tied to Windows, it's obvious - stick to Windows, and the specific version that your software supports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymz View Post
As for the Apple argument.. well. Think you'll have compatibility headaches with Vista? They're nothing compared with what you'll face when migrating to OS X. Don't get me wrong - I love OS X to death, and it's definitely my favourite OS to date, but that doesn't change the fact that 99.9999% of all my apps are Windows-only, and I still like playing games on my PC. Unless you really like the OS, and still have a PC for running everything else on, I'd really re-think any Apple-only scenarios for future purchases. Parallels is far too buggy to pay money for, and rebooting for Bootcamp is a real pain in the ass.
I haven't had any issues with Parallels, except for when using Linux with it (VMWare is said to be the better option for Linux). Virtualization is just that - virtualization. Given your OS experience, I'm sure you remember the old days of virtualization - SoftWindows? Virtual PC? Compare that with Parallels, and virtualization has come a long way pretty quickly. It can only get better. That aside, I could probably fool anyone into thinking WinXP was running natively on my system with Parallels - the performance is that good. I'd be happier with some extra settings and support (DirectX - note that VMWare supports DirectX 8.1), but it's not there yet, and the current performance is good enough.

VMWare/Parallels aside, you already mentioned BootCamp. Sure, it's a pain to reboot to an OS, but who cares - you have full access to the OS. If you really wanted, you could just always boot to Windows if you really wanted. The point is that you have the options. I'd planned to tri-boot my Macbook Pro and spend as little time as possible in Mac OS, but I ended up just going the virtualization route and using Mac OS as my primary. It works for me and my needs, but I don't love Mac OS. However, I would likely buy another Mac system like this again, not because I love Mac but because more options are opened to me and I can do more with my hardware. Why lock myself to Windows/Linux when I can have a system that can run Windows/Linux/Mac OS? And who honestly cares if you have to reboot to have full support with the other operating systems - the point is, you CAN have that full support. Why start nitpicking at that point?

But I'll reiterate, the take-home message is that we all use our computers for different things. Everything about your computer, from your hardware to your operating system, should ideally be tailored around your needs. And your needs likely are very different from anyone else you'd meet, especally on this forum.
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Old 2007-05-20, 02:53   Link #32
Jaymz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
If they surf the web, watch anime and check their emails only, then the migration to most desktop OS's won't be that bad...
I hate to look like I'm starting off my posting career here as an OS troll, but the second point - watching anime - was in itself a painful task until Mplayer OS X stopped sucking. It wasn't all that long ago, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
But I'll reiterate, the take-home message is that we all use our computers for different things. Everything about your computer, from your hardware to your operating system, should ideally be tailored around your needs. And your needs likely are very different from anyone else you'd meet, especally on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myself View Post
Think more about what you want to do with the OS, and less about fancypants features, fanboy rhetoric, Stallman-inspired rants about DRM, etc, etc.
Pretty much what I was trying to say. What you plan to do with it should be the deciding factor in platforms.
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Old 2007-05-20, 09:51   Link #33
Claies
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The huge nail on Vista this time isn't about the fanboys or high-end people who already have a good idea what Linux / Mac OS is - it's the laypeople who don't know the technical stuff and who just want their computer to do what they want it to do.

A lot of non-computer-savvy people have been asking me about Vista and whether they should switch to it or not. They all think it's pretty. Now they regret it. All three people who asked me and got Vista now whine about how stuff just don't work and they have to click through the whole UAC crap. Two couldn't play their games, and one, more importantly, couldn't get her camera (incompatible!) to work.

You think people who got their nice old cameras, games, MP3 players, printers, scanners, and cell phones shot down like that would have a good view on Microsoft, regardless of what fanboys tell them? Please. They might not care about Linux just because Microsoft and Mac are the only two computer words they know, but Microsoft is going to lose a lot here.
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Old 2007-05-20, 09:58   Link #34
npal
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Vista is a new OS. Those same people were probably saying the same when XP first launched. The whining is the same regarding software and driver compatibility. The early adopter experience is the same because of that.

And nagging about the UAC is like complaining about Linux administrator restrictions. People wanted a more secure system, one of the things they got is the UAC which is more or less the same thing as Linux requesting password in most system-wide changes.
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Old 2007-05-20, 10:50   Link #35
grey_moon
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A big issue is about user perception of a product. XP (et al), basically always went for usability first and security seco.. somewhere down the line.

Now the main problem a user moving from XP to Vista is that they may assume that the usability aspect will be the same. As the sales gumpf does keep going on about how it is more powerful and more user friendly etc etc. Surely it should not only be as easy as XP was to setup and use, but also be able to make my coffee in the morning and automatically pick out what anime I want to download.

XP was built really badly from a security aspect. Not only from its architecture, but also from the way it conditioned a user to behave. For example plugging in a device and it installing with minimum user interaction is a great thing, but in most cases you would need to escalate the users rights to administrator or root to do so. In the case of a user conditioned by the MS old way is that instead of escalating rights, you always run with admin rights... thats such a bad thing....

So not only does the OS need to mature, but also users who are used to and only know the MS way of the ninja will need time to adjust too.

I think the mistake MS made was all the whole XP to Vista coupon thing. During the honeymoon period of owning a new PC people I find don't mind so much in having to learn something new or if something doesn't quite work the way they think it should. Let them get used to they new PC with their old OS, throw in some delays, and ofc the usual complications of upgrading an OS and bompf very unhappy user.

Hee hee I had to delete a whole chunk as I went off on one about good security design and all
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Old 2007-05-20, 22:58   Link #36
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
And nagging about the UAC is like complaining about Linux administrator restrictions. People wanted a more secure system, one of the things they got is the UAC which is more or less the same thing as Linux requesting password in most system-wide changes.
From my understanding, the difference between UAC and the Linux password requests is that the UAC pops up over every.little.thing, whereas the Linux password requests really are just over access to things that could make major modifications to the system (access to the control panel, to YaST/Synaptic, etc.). It makes a huge difference, as well as the fact that the Linux method is not a simple click-through (which is better from a security standpoint).
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Old 2007-05-20, 23:49   Link #37
npal
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Yes, but when most of the work in Linux evolves around getting things working, I'm usually typing my password countless times until things get settled, which is kind of frustrating. Damn, I don't even like typing my password every time I want to logon to a system, since in case of a power failure, scheduled stuff like torrents will stay frozen until I come back and login, main reason why I disabled password protection in XP and instead used Desktop Lock.

The UAC doesn't pop over every little thing, just when a program wants to make changes that Windows consider wide enough to warrant a warning. The only problem I see with UAC is that the interface gets ugly when it pops up and I don't know whether it can be circumvented by simulated mouse clicks or something. If it can't, it beats having to type my password every time I want to check Synaptic for updates or do something Linux doesn't like etc etc.
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Old 2007-05-21, 01:25   Link #38
Ledgem
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npal, in your case you have been conditioned by Windows' previous design, which I believe greymoon mentioned was designed with security not as a primary priority. You're demanding convenience over security by far. In many ways, I don't believe that the security layers you're speaking of have to be as inconvenient as you're making them out to be - you just need to get used to them and appreciate what they're there for.

We all have different needs - I didn't need to password protect my systems until I went to college, and once I move into my own place I'll probably feel like passwords are somewhat unnecessary again. But the difference between the Unix setup and the Windows setup, as you probably know, is that under Windows you're the administrative account by default, while in Linux, you're not. You need to type the root password each time to gain access to that administrator account temporarily. UAC is inferior to the Unix method because theoretically anyone could click OK, while the password requires you. There's also something about typing the password that makes you think a little bit more about what you're doing, rather than clicking through a dialogue you've been conditioned to.
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Old 2007-05-21, 01:44   Link #39
npal
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Typing a password to access Synaptics is just as conditioned as clicking, it just takes a bit more time since mindless typing is more time consuming than mindless clicking. Both are subject to user error, since it's still up to the user to mess it up. If you are the user of your computer, password or click won't save you from stupidity. Linux just protects your pc from getting messed up by people other than you. In terms of outside security, what Linux does seems better, although I don't have any data regarding malware breach of UAC so I wouldn't know how it fares. But as far as user protection is concerned, they're both on par now. Even when conditioned, I know that I'm doing something that might have repercussions in Windows, the same way I know that I might mess up when Linux wants a password.

In Windows, as far as someone else messing up with your PC is concerned, programs like DesktopLock (Vista's own system isn't as versatile unfortunately) is adequate enough to protect your PC from outside interference.
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Old 2007-05-22, 02:08   Link #40
Vexx
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I'm trying to recall just how painful XP was for peripherals and my recollection is that MS did a lot more groundwork in making sure drivers were available and were a lot more cooperative with the various peripheral vendors.

With Vista, it seems their focus was on DRM to the detriment of other aspects... and all that infrastructure wasn't put in place --- hence the peripherals pain many people are experiencing even when they've purchased a BigBox PC with Vista pre-installed. (I have no sympathy for people who upgraded their existing machines... it must have been momentary insanity)

Personally, I prefer the "password please" of Linux/Ubuntu over UAC ... but really they're BOTH pretty annoying from an expert user standpoint (but great for a sysadmin with computer-illiterati to manage). The UAC is more annoying simply because it encourages mindless clicking rather than actually reading (and then of course, the request is meaningless unless you know whats behind the curtain sometimes).

Every single admin I know about in my area is resisting Vista like crazy (at least XP was basically 2000 with colors) because of the red flags introduced even by basic pre-testing of applications, peripherals, etc. One company told the Microsoft Partner they worked with to bring buckets of money to pay for all the impacts of upgrading after just a couple of weeks of testing.

Maybe next time Microsoft will remember their actual customers are at least the Fortune 500 crowd.... not the entertainment mugs that harbor illusions of total control

Sorry.. that started off reasonable and then kind of degraded into a rant.
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