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Old 2007-05-03, 13:44   Link #21
Seska
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A normal human will die on blood loss, but for a Claymore it's nothing .
Perhaps she sensed the hunter.
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Old 2007-05-03, 13:48   Link #22
Kinematics
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So, do you think Ilena's actually dead? Doing it offscreen leaves open the usual issue of bringing the character back later (see pretty much every US comic character in existance). And, wierd as it is, I could almost believe Ilena capable of fighting off Rafaela (at least long enough to escape and re-mask her aura) even without any arms.

However, I think she did allow Rafaela to kill her. In her final discussions with Clare, she reiterated the statement that Clare was the only proof that Teresa ever existed. Ilena seemed to have come to empathize with Teresa during that final hunt, and I think she was willing to consign her memory, her 'proof of existance', to Clare.

It wasn't just a matter of giving Clare a power-up or restoring her ability to fight that made her give Clare her arm; ever since the day Ilena fought Priscilla, she had been in a state of limbo, a half-existance where she was neither human nor youma nor Claymore. She wanted to find for herself the smile that she saw on Teresa that last day. Clare gave that to her, and presented the opportunity that Ilena, too, could be remembered beyond merely being a discarded tool of the Organization, if only for a little while.

Ilena's questioning of Rafaela at the end lends itself to that a bit as well. She's no longer concerned about her own proof of existance, and allows herself to discard some of the strict behavioural requirements, instead letting her curiosity enjoy a bit of freedom.


On Ophelia, she does seem extremely childlike. Consider how she looked when she said, "Let's play a game!" just before cutting Clare's legs off. It was just like a little kid, all bright and cheerful and happy. Children can be incredibly cruel, and I suspect that the young Ophelia was one to torment other kids. Considering her obsession with her brother, I'm reminded of Nanami from Utena, and I would not be surprised if she would have grown up to be something like that in more normal circumstances.

However, the events that led to her becoming a Claymore seem to have stunted any further emotional growth, while at the same time giving her enormous physical power that she could use on pretty much anyone she pleased (as long as noone tattled on her; no witnesses, no problems).
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Old 2007-05-03, 13:49   Link #23
Daniel E.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Like she said, she doesn't need it anymore. She has no intention of going after priscilla and she can regrow a normal type arm in a few months. But yeah it did take a lot of guts and stuff to do that.
You know, I actually though she was lying about that.

Maybe she knew other Claymores would feel her presence if she started to use her powers (Clare's training) and maybe she didn't care about them coming to hunt her down.

I mean, if she could regrow the arm that she gave to Clare, why hasn't she regenerated the other one?

If you ask me, that whole scene felt like a sort of apology from her for trying to kill Teresa all those years ago.
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Old 2007-05-03, 13:58   Link #24
Kinematics
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On Priscilla

This is something that really struck me a while back, while I was rereading the various bits about the hunt of Teresa. While it's not immediately obvious because of the world setting, I think Priscilla's character archtype is meant to be that of the typical shojou magical girl heroine.

Consider: She's cute and clumsy while still fighting well (beating the entire alley of youma when she first shows up). While she's fairly strong right now (ie: when we first meet her), she has the potential to become far stronger than any other Claymore, ever. She's completely obsessed with the fact that Teresa 'broke the rules', that what Teresa did wasn't 'right'. She's everything you'd expect a magical girl to be.

Unfortunately, in this world that single-minded focus is a detriment rather than a benefit, which leads to her unfortunate downfall. But it has made me wonder: is Claymore really a magical girl story gone horribly wrong?
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Old 2007-05-03, 14:32   Link #25
Seska
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She sacrifice for Clare. Because of the training, both of them release Youma power. She knows that someday one will sensed it, and go investigate it.
She sensed the hunter, because of that she give her right Arm to Clare, because there was no more time for her to continue training. And the rest of "grown own Arm" in months, was for fooling Clare and calm her down to take the arm and left. So she stays behind, to hinder the hunter to go after Clare, too.

Clare was more fit for Battle, unlike her. She says that. Because of that she teaching Clare her technique. And for regenerating. The Pact of the 4... read them carefully again. There is a hint what state you must have or pass trough, to regenerate that much body.And i don#t think that she surpass the line, like Clare.

Well, my thoughts on that...
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Old 2007-05-03, 16:27   Link #26
cajunman380
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on IIlena

For me its a toss up wheter shes alive or dead. If she were dead, why wouldnt they show a scene of her being killed (unless it was in a fashback in the future). To me the thing about IIlena was that she knew touble was coming and she figured she would help clare face her enemy buy giving her the best tools available. But it wasnt just that. I think IIlene spoke her true feelings to clare after giving her the arm. She was envious of theresa. Despite the fact that she died, theresa got to experience human emotion, something that IIena apparently was never able to> I think the arm is something that can be expressed in two ways. A tool to help clare in battle but also a parting gift and IIlenes way of being remembered by somebody. I think even if she did die, she wouldnt die regretting becaus eshe was able to leave bhind a legacy to someone however insignificant it may be. Think how may claymores have died in the past wihout someone ever remembering their name.... Its a powerful thingin this manga.

Spoiler for on Rafaela:

Spoiler for On the DBZ comparison:
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Old 2007-05-03, 18:05   Link #27
Kinematics
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On the number 4

There have been various points during the initial threads where people refer to Clare's team who went to fight the awakened male as the "Fab Four" or some such. While at this point it's a bit tenuous to call them a team, they're definitely all tied together, and thinking of them as such seems natural.

However a well-known Japanese superstition revolves around the number 4. Since one of the ways it can be pronounced sounds like the word for 'death', it's considered a bad or unlucky number ("You have a most unfortunate face."). In pretty much every other anime I can think of, teams are comprised of two (Gunsmith Cats, Dirty Pair), three (Steel Angel Kurumi, Read or Dream) or five (Sailor Moon, Voltron-type shows) members. The only case of 4 that I can think of is Bubblegum Crisis.

While there are parallels that can be drawn with the Bubblegum Crisis characters (Miria seems very similar to Sylia, and likewise Helen to Priss; Clare is somewhat similar to Linna, but any similarities between Denev and Nene seem tenuous at best), the more overarching idea seems to be a deliberate use of the secondary concept of death, and perhaps bad luck in general, that the author wants to convey. We don't have any "defeat the bad guy and go home for a cup o' tea" moments here, and such is very unlikely to happen given the atmosphere of the story.


However, to return to the idea of a magical girl team analogue (or any team, really), we already have enough of an idea of the characters to fit them into pretty easy-to-identify roles:

Miria: Leader; intelligence gathering and strategy.
Helen: Aggressive, reckless direct power.
Denev: Defensive; the shield. Potentially the 'comic relief', if such can be applied to this world (cf: tends to hassle and make trouble for other Claymores).
Clare: Wild card; unusual power that can potentially trump whatever the enemy throws out, but difficult to use and train.


On name origins

Curious about the names, I was looking up the meanings and origins. Bit of peculiarity: St. Clare of Assisi is the patron saint of Televisions.
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Old 2007-05-03, 19:06   Link #28
cajunman380
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On the number 4

There have been various points during the initial threads where people refer to Clare's team who went to fight the awakened male as the "Fab Four" or some such. While at this point it's a bit tenuous to call them a team, they're definitely all tied together, and thinking of them as such seems natural.

I was the one throwing around that phrase at first and its not just for tht reason only. For one thing they have survived longer than any other claymores shown so far (panel time wise). They are all connected in a sense (semi awakened) and they are all unique considering they are claymores in the sense that they are atypical from the claymores we have been shown in the past. Oh i also called them that cuz its easier then referring to them all by their names individually so its up to you how you phrase them. to me they ar ethe fab 4.

However a well-known Japanese superstition revolves around the number 4. Since one of the ways it can be pronounced sounds like the word for 'death', it's considered a bad or unlucky number ("You have a most unfortunate face."). In pretty much every other anime I can think of, teams are comprised of two (Gunsmith Cats, Dirty Pair), three (Steel Angel Kurumi, Read or Dream) or five (Sailor Moon, Voltron-type shows) members. The only case of 4 that I can think of is Bubblegum Crisis.

Spoiler for some spoiler:



While there are parallels that can be drawn with the Bubblegum Crisis characters (Miria seems very similar to Sylia, and likewise Helen to Priss; Clare is somewhat similar to Linna, but any similarities between Denev and Nene seem tenuous at best), the more overarching idea seems to be a deliberate use of the secondary concept of death, and perhaps bad luck in general, that the author wants to convey. We don't have any "defeat the bad guy and go home for a cup o' tea" moments here, and such is very unlikely to happen given the atmosphere of the story.

Umm i disagree. first of all claymore and bubblegum crisis are two VERY different series altogether, different generes and themes. Its like comparing aplles to oranges so the character similarites while subtle arent even close. Secondly, your sligtly mistaken about what the author wants to convey.Theres death no doubt, but theres also hope. Its a story about women who are considered monsters and their struggle to find their humanity and purpose. Its a story about loss and overcoming loss. About changing the old system and finding new goals. Its a story of friendship and overcoming struggle. The author made it clear at the beginning that a claymores life was a living hell and the early chapters showed just how bleak a claymores life can get. However we later see clkaymores who literally defy long established notions, overcome impossible odds and find reasons to keep moving forward in a world where they are considered as monsters or disposable machines. The author constantly inroduces new concepts into the story and while the atmosphere is still dark theres that sense of hope and adventure that you get when reaidng the later chapters that the earlier ones didnt have.



However, to return to the idea of a magical girl team analogue (or any team, really), we already have enough of an idea of the characters to fit them into pretty easy-to-identify roles:

i made some adjustments

Miria: Leader; Detective and strategist.
Helen: Aggressive, Passionate and comic relief.
Denev: helens counterpart
Clare: MAIN CHARACTER

ill add more later
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Old 2007-05-03, 19:51   Link #29
Kinematics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunman380
there are many manga and anime that use the number 4
Yes, I'm sure I've missed a few (though I'd disagree on Naruto; that seemed far more focused on teams of three, unless you count the instructor as part of it). Numerical analysis, though, tends to need to be pretty superficial in this kind of comparison since it's very easy to dig into a bazillion little variants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunman380
first of all claymore and bubblegum crisis are two VERY different series altogether, different generes and themes. Its like comparing aplles to oranges so the character similarites while subtle arent even close.
I realize that they're very different series, but it's more a description of a meta-analysis of their roles and archtypes. 'Teams' tend to need a certain balance among their characters to be believable as working well together. If there's noone working strategy and tactics you expect them to fall apart when their individual choices collide. A team filled entirely with either aggressive or defensive types is likewise ill-equipped to deal with the variety of situations likely to be thrown their way.

As such, there are certain 'types' that you can expect to look for, though those types vary based on the size of the team. In a small team, each person needs to be more of a generalist, while in a large team each one can be more of a specialist. The only team size that I could think of that matched this particular size (due to, I assumed, the peculiarity of chosing an 'unlucky' number) happens to match fairly well with the roles that get applied, and therefor I can see parallels between the two setups.

Bear in mind that my information is limited to what's been released in the US so far (per the thread), so my assigning, for example, comic relief to Denev was based only on rough extrapolation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunman380
Secondly, your sligtly mistaken about what the author wants to convey.Theres death no doubt, but theres also hope. Its a story about women who are considered monsters and their struggle to find their humanity and purpose. Its a story about loss and overcoming loss. About changing the old system and finding new goals. Its a story of friendship and overcoming struggle.
Oh, of course. It's a rather bland story that has only a single theme. I was merely trying to note a correlation with that particular aspect of the story's themes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunman380
Denev: helens counterpart
In what way? That doesn't really describe her role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunman380
Clare: MAIN CHARACTER
That in itself doesn't describe her role within the team, merely her role in the story. Main characters tend to be the wild card types anyway.
Edit: Or agressive/reckless types, which serves the same purpose. However recklessness is likely to get people killed in this world. They also depend too much on luck for my tastes.

Last edited by Kinematics; 2007-05-04 at 07:47.
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Old 2007-05-03, 21:31   Link #30
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
All the the Claymores have their scars, some deeper then others. Remember all those girls were orphens of Yoma attacks and most likely were sold/given to the organization by the surviving villagers.
All Claymores do bare deep scars Ophelia and Priscilla stand out from the herd . Both take immense pleasure in killing Yoma maybe a little weight on their chest is lifted every time they did so.

Priscilla is a wackjob and Ophelia best described was a demented sadist. Both did have child like innocence but Priscilla IMO has more of it as she even apologizes before attempting to subdue / kill Teresa


Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore_Obsessed View Post
By the way, Irene had incredible guts.
Cutting off your remaining arm! truly heroic
Has Ilena's death been confimed ? most likely she is dead but I did really like the chracter
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Old 2007-05-03, 23:01   Link #31
Kinematics
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Quote:
Has Ilena's death been confimed ?
Not in what's been released in English so far.
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Old 2007-05-04, 09:04   Link #32
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no confirmation but given the businesslike attitude of No. 5 I doubt she'd be alive.

She did make an interesting observation that Raphaela is stronger than her rank gives her credit for. I knew it was weird that they'd start Clare's struggles with no.4 but apparently Ophelia really ought to be the weakest of the top 5. Mirai also commented before that there was a huge gap between 5 and 6, is this because of Raphaela camping on the 5th rank instead of opting to go up (maybe even as No.1)? would the gap not be so wide in the case of Ophelia?
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Old 2007-05-04, 09:07   Link #33
Zu Ra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Child_of_Sierra View Post
no confirmation but given the businesslike attitude of No. 5 I doubt she'd be alive.
Yeah I share the same opnion I was hoping for Shonen-Plotkai to save her but when its put that way her chances are zilch I guess : (
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Old 2007-05-04, 09:08   Link #34
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Maybe she chose to use her secret technique: the lightning legs.
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Old 2007-05-10, 17:02   Link #35
Kinematics
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Long bit of speculation and theorizing:

Spoiler for Issues on discrepencies in the behavior of the organization with respect to Claymore punishment.:
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Old 2007-05-10, 17:47   Link #36
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Spoiler for speculative answers:
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Old 2007-05-10, 21:23   Link #37
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Spoiler for even more speculation:
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Old 2007-05-12, 05:29   Link #38
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Im not sure if im posting in the correct thread(there are so darn many)

regarding
Spoiler for 1:

Spoiler for response:


another question that is worth pondering is:
Spoiler for anotherquestion:


Spoiler for 2:

Spoiler for response:
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Old 2007-05-12, 06:08   Link #39
Anh_Minh
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Spoiler for 2:
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Old 2007-05-12, 12:47   Link #40
Kinematics
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Just a note: that's getting into stuff that's well beyond what's released in English, which should be the limit of what's expounded on in this thread. I don't read the scanlations, and what I do know of the future volumes is mainly incidental. I'd like to keep it that way.
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