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Old 2007-05-24, 11:26   Link #181
Avatar_notADV
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Hey, for all we know, Graham's done his donation duty. (Or who knows, maybe he was a randy young man? It's not written in stone that all children must be born in wedlock, after all...)

I'm hardly suggesting that the TSA has some kind of compulsory breeding program or anything like that, but at the same time, it's hardly a theme that's never been explored in sci-fi. Take the Rowan series from McCaffrey, for example - nobody ever gets sat down and told "make us babies", but the families involved are pretty shameless in "arranging" for their eligible and unattached offspring to run into each other on a regular basis.

(Hm, I was just thinking the other day that Div 6 seemed a bit overstaffed with support personnel relative to its combat force...)

Actually, if you come to think about it, the TSA -does- recruit off Earth - not just Nanoha and the gang, but Graham and one of the Nakajimas (wife, I'm assuming? Hubby doesn't seem to have the skill...) One wonders exactly how common that sort of thing is - and given that Earth is what, "Unadministered Planet 97", just how big the TSA's recruitment pool is?
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Old 2007-05-24, 11:36   Link #182
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Graham stumbled across a TSAB clerk by fate, and that was the beginning of Mahou Shonen Classical Graham, MSCG : A's in the 60s, and MSCG : The 3 AdmiralS. :P

No real scouting and recruitment. Just a male Nanoha in a different time.

As for Genya, since his ancestors were Earthlings, and his side of the family didn't have magical potential...I dunno, his Sengoku-era samurai ancestor walked into a dimensional gate or something? For all we know, the mother side of Subaru may not neccesarily be from Earth. She could be a Mid-childan.
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Old 2007-05-24, 12:57   Link #183
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Interesting point that I don't know where to raise, and it's at least a bit on-topic here...

Okay, so it's been established that whatever it is that makes a mage have magical talent is at least partially heritable. We've seen plenty of magic running in the family (Chrono and both parents, the whole Nakajima family, Teana and brother, Caro and her whole clan, yadda yadda.) It's probably safe to assume that the chances of a child of a mage being a mage is higher than normal; or more to the point, we don't know of ANYONE who's a relative of a mage, but has no magic potential, save Nanoha's immediate family (and do they even know?)

We also know that the TSA doesn't have enough mages to go around, especially A-class and higher. (Else, why is Nanoha wasting her time training up a bunch of kids fresh out of C rank?) Thus, mages are a valuable resource.

We also know that the TSA is at least friendly to the idea of its members taking time out of their careers to raise a family, cf. Chrono/Amy. Well, makes sense, if you're short on mages and there's only one way to make 'em, don't get in the way of that. In fact, they go way beyond most militaries in the sense that they allow members of the same family to be in the same command structure, like Chrono/Lindy, Fate/Elio, Subaru's dad and Ginga... this is ordinarily a massive no-no, but we've seen it way more often than random chance would suggest. Of course, the TSA's also a little more open to specific requests from high-potential mages than a normal military structure would be (a good idea, when they have that kind of firepower at their beck and call...)

The question is, precisely how much is that sort of thing "encouraged" by the TSA? At some point, is someone going to poke Nanoha or Fate or Hayate and say "hey, rank advancement is great, but you should find a nice man and have your kids while you're young!" or something? Even the US Army has a saying, "Captains may marry, majors should marry, colonels must marry" - so if the US army, which ain't really interested in its personnel breeding as a source of recruits, eventually puts pressure on its members to obtain a family, how much more does the TSA, where every high-rank mage couple has the potential to raise more mages, and those already in a military-oriented family? (One observes here that Hayate, in particular, is rapidly running out of ranks to be advanced; if they don't slow her up somehow, she'll definitely end up as one of the most senior generals of the TSA. "You're not getting promoted until we see some kids!" would do this job just fine.)

Of course, we don't really know how many mages are involved in the civilian economy of Midchilda, nor the proportion of mages in active service with the TSA, so it's hard to tell how much this sort of thing might matter in the long run. (Though it's fair to say that, as the power of the mage increases, the chance that they've been involved with the TSA probably increases as well - I mean, if they're willing to recruit friggin' 9 year olds if they're AAA, that suggests that Nanoha levels of power are in high demand in the ranks!)

Also, natural breeding is evidently NOT the only method for making a mage - we have Fate, we have Elio, both of which are the products of experimentation. It's not beyond envisioning that the experiment that produced Elio (or, for that matter, Lutecia?) was actually TSA-backed; they certainly have an interest in being able to produce mages directly, and the presence of the Jewel Seed-like structures in the drones at least suggests that somehow, the Jewel Seeds in TSA custody got out for analysis. Perhaps they were stolen, perhaps it's just another source of 'em, but it may be that they were "unofficially" lost to aid a deniable project... hoo, evil thoughts, evil thoughts. For some reason, I always think of the TSA as the heavy of the piece...
Wow this is SERIOUS food for thought. Nothing like passive and active social engineering to remind me of Nathan and country (It really does remind of Singapore). But your points are valid, and I see another supporter for the theory that the TSAB has a dark side.

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Hey, for all we know, Graham's done his donation duty. (Or who knows, maybe he was a randy young man? It's not written in stone that all children must be born in wedlock, after all...)

I'm hardly suggesting that the TSA has some kind of compulsory breeding program or anything like that, but at the same time, it's hardly a theme that's never been explored in sci-fi. Take the Rowan series from McCaffrey, for example - nobody ever gets sat down and told "make us babies", but the families involved are pretty shameless in "arranging" for their eligible and unattached offspring to run into each other on a regular basis.

(Hm, I was just thinking the other day that Div 6 seemed a bit overstaffed with support personnel relative to its combat force...)

Actually, if you come to think about it, the TSA -does- recruit off Earth - not just Nanoha and the gang, but Graham and one of the Nakajimas (wife, I'm assuming? Hubby doesn't seem to have the skill...) One wonders exactly how common that sort of thing is - and given that Earth is what, "Unadministered Planet 97", just how big the TSA's recruitment pool is?
I'm sure that's what Fate's trying to do setting up Nanoha and Yuuno's conversation, if that's the case.

*buffs up in case shots start flying*

And I'm pretty sure that pool's just huge. But a large organisation need a large force, and so it justmight be TSAB policy to draw mages to operate in a certain world from that world's population. FOr the uninhabited worlds, they may have to post on rotation basis a small taskforce of Enforcers on interdimensional outposts within a quater of a jump-cycle of that dimension. IN the end, it more or less enforces the fact that mages though many, just aren't as numerous as they are needed to be. Especially the good ones.
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Old 2007-05-24, 15:03   Link #184
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Interesting points, Kha. One wonders exactly what kind of force Midchilda has. Or even more importantly, how much territory do they need to cover? Is it just one "home" planet? Presumably not - calling Earth an "unadministrated" world pretty much indicates that there are worlds which are "administrated". So... maybe it's like the British empire? One home base, a few colonial possessions, some bases/coaling stations, and every so often a patrol wanders around elsewhere?

Of course, the more mages that crop up in the fringes, the more mages that the TSA has access to - but at the same time, it also expands their responsibilities enormously, because a place which can produce recruitable mages can also produce threat mages. (Not that the TSA won't recruit the latter too!)

Div 6 hasn't done any dimension-hopping yet - certainly nothing like the mad rondo in A's. One wonders why - it would make sense to train up the rookies someplace far from an urban area, especially when some characters have really long-range beam attacks that might knock down nearby aircraft. On the other hand, if they're a rapid-reaction special assault unit, especially one dealing with local threats IN Midchilda, they ought to be based there.

Yeah, okay, starting to drift from the topic. Fate has plenty of reasons to throw Yuuno and Nanoha together, assuming she's not consumed with jealousy at the thought (and she ain't, evidently). The two are old friends - Yuuno's the only friend of Nanoha's present in the cast that's been with her longer than Fate. And if Nanoha gets a little bummed about how her training is going, then he makes a really good distraction, as a friend outside work that she can talk to. No matter how "close" Nanoha and Fate are, Nanoha can't really talk to her about Subaru and Tea without it getting at least a little official, after all. And if we're assuming that any relationship she and Nanoha has is of the Japanese "not actually lesbians, just girls who haven't met a guy yet" type, well, he's definitely a candidate for that spot.
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Old 2007-05-24, 15:48   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Interesting points, Kha. One wonders exactly what kind of force Midchilda has. Or even more importantly, how much territory do they need to cover? Is it just one "home" planet? Presumably not - calling Earth an "unadministrated" world pretty much indicates that there are worlds which are "administrated". So... maybe it's like the British empire? One home base, a few colonial possessions, some bases/coaling stations, and every so often a patrol wanders around elsewhere?

Of course, the more mages that crop up in the fringes, the more mages that the TSA has access to - but at the same time, it also expands their responsibilities enormously, because a place which can produce recruitable mages can also produce threat mages. (Not that the TSA won't recruit the latter too!)

Div 6 hasn't done any dimension-hopping yet - certainly nothing like the mad rondo in A's. One wonders why - it would make sense to train up the rookies someplace far from an urban area, especially when some characters have really long-range beam attacks that might knock down nearby aircraft. On the other hand, if they're a rapid-reaction special assault unit, especially one dealing with local threats IN Midchilda, they ought to be based there.

Yeah, okay, starting to drift from the topic. Fate has plenty of reasons to throw Yuuno and Nanoha together, assuming she's not consumed with jealousy at the thought (and she ain't, evidently). The two are old friends - Yuuno's the only friend of Nanoha's present in the cast that's been with her longer than Fate. And if Nanoha gets a little bummed about how her training is going, then he makes a really good distraction, as a friend outside work that she can talk to. No matter how "close" Nanoha and Fate are, Nanoha can't really talk to her about Subaru and Tea without it getting at least a little official, after all. And if we're assuming that any relationship she and Nanoha has is of the Japanese "not actually lesbians, just girls who haven't met a guy yet" type, well, he's definitely a candidate for that spot.
That's a nice point on Nanoha and Yuuno relationship there.Not only Fate is in the same work position as her, sometimes there are just some problems that girls cant complained about to other girls

Plus like what you stated that other than Fate , Yuuno is the only other person that know Nanoha's past pretty well.So if Nanoha is getting some problems relating to her past experience.Those 2 (Fate/Yuuno) would be the better choice to talk to since they would understand her reasoning or when she refers to the past.I doubt even Hayate and Nanoha's family know as much as Yuuno.

I probably just repeating your point sigh...cant write something better with my english

They did dimension hopping in the Strikers sound stage that was released recently ^^ ...I doubt the producer gonna show much more normal training in the anime, not when everyone is already crying "booooring " with what they had in the last 8 episode

On MC territory , i doubt MC forces actually has much control over the other world like an empire.They only has information and world relationship (similar to relation between countries in earth) on em.I guess Earth is categorized as "unadministrated" because it has no magic culture therefore is not ready to form relation with MC.The way i think of TSAB is that they are similar to UN forces cum treasure hunter (with LL items being the treasures).They do their work secretly most of the time especially in the unadministrated world.
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Old 2007-05-24, 17:24   Link #186
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The only fact is that Satashi's fics are 10 times better than this average-poor quality third season.

-Haru
Hmmm...

Can I automatically assume it's because the focuses more on Nanoha and Fate's relationship, and exaggerate it out of proportion?


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Wow. I'm amazed.

If TSAB's really desperate as hell, you'd think they'd ask Graham to contribute to Mid-childa's sperm bank rather than single himself, or force Chrono to divorce Amy to marry someone with a more "potent" aptitude...like Hayate or some non-blood-related sister-moe! C'mon, this is ridiculous as hell.
Actually...

...There might be the reason why he's some where out there, at an undisclosed location, and haven't been reporting back to headquarters...

To sow the seeds far and wide....

... Of course, this mission is TOP secret, and if he's caught, Mid-Childa would most likely deny all involvment.


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That's a nice point on Nanoha and Yuuno relationship there.Not only Fate is in the same work position as her, sometimes there are just some problems that girls cant complained about to other girls
I'll take your word for it, as well as abit of hope.

Quote:
Plus like what you stated that other than Fate , Yuuno is the only other person that know Nanoha's past pretty well.So if Nanoha is getting some problems relating to her past experience.Those 2 (Fate/Yuuno) would be the better choice to talk to since they would understand her reasoning or when she refers to the past.I doubt even Hayate and Nanoha's family know as much as Yuuno.
Which makes me VERY very interested in their reaction to the 'event' that had taken place several years ago...

... We've all seen Vita's, but what about the others?
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Old 2007-05-24, 18:52   Link #187
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Hmmm...

Can I automatically assume it's because the focuses more on Nanoha and Fate's relationship, and exaggerate it out of proportion?
Not exactly, I'm complaining about the argument quality of this show, I was expecting a lot more from this series.
The third season’s plot is nothing but a lineal succession of basically auto-conclusive episodes with almost no development of any kind, nearly no history development (“we need to protect the jewel seeds!” counts? It sounds like a Digimon or something like that), and any character development, all the characters are plain since episode 1 and until the first half of episode 8, they just stay there training, speaking about military issues, or killing some filler robots. Where is my crazy Precia and my poor Fate? Where is my Hayate squad and my Reinforce? In this season surely no, but I hope Ivory will put some character development and something good in the plot in the remaining episodes.

-Haru
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Old 2007-05-24, 19:46   Link #188
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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Not exactly, I'm complaining about the argument quality of this show, I was expecting a lot more from this series.
The third season’s plot is nothing but a lineal succession of basically auto-conclusive episodes with almost no development of any kind, nearly no history development (“we need to protect the jewel seeds!” counts? It sounds like a Digimon or something like that), and any character development, all the characters are plain since episode 1 and until the first half of episode 8, they just stay there training, speaking about military issues, or killing some filler robots. Where is my crazy Precia and my poor Fate? Where is my Hayate squad and my Reinforce? In this season surely no, but I hope Ivory will put some character development and something good in the plot in the remaining episodes.

-Haru
I actually agree with you Haru, all they do so far is training and fighting stupid robots. So far, there's no plot developpment. I hope they fix this, because Im a Nanoha fan, I would expect something gud like the 1st and 2nd season
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Old 2007-05-24, 20:12   Link #189
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If Yuuno is supposed to be an AA-ish rank... Why did he get his butt kicked by the 1st Jewel Seed monster when Nanoha annihilates it easily? While most mages have to be A Rank to fly, it doesn't mean ONLY A Rank mages can fly. Just only A Rank ones are allowed to be a part of that division.

I need to find more evidence for FxN. *Ponders*
Well. I wonder if I mentioned it but. In the StrikerS opening it DOES have Nanoha and Fate together during that Relics moment... It also shows Erio and Caro together, so there has to be a reason for it... Right?
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Old 2007-05-24, 20:12   Link #190
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Not exactly, I'm complaining about the argument quality of this show, I was expecting a lot more from this series.
Fair enough.

Though the following would be out of topic from the thread...

Spoiler for Off-topic rant:


See Darco_emp?

Falling apart....

It's only a matter of time...
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Old 2007-05-24, 20:18   Link #191
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If Yuuno is supposed to be an AA-ish rank... Why did he get his butt kicked by the 1st Jewel Seed monster when Nanoha annihilates it easily? While most mages have to be A Rank to fly, it doesn't mean ONLY A Rank mages can fly. Just only A Rank ones are allowed to be a part of that division.
Wow, nice try though, especially when you ignored that Nanoha is at least AAA base on raw power alone and that Yuuno was already exhausted, and that the monster wasn't exactly in top shape after facing Yuuno for awhile.

Btw? A ranks are the ones that are allowed to fly because they have the SKILLS and raw power to mantain and control it.

Sure, anyone lower could try, but they'll just crash into a wall or something.

Do you see Yuuno with that problem?

Quote:
I need to find more evidence for FxN. *Ponders*
Well. I wonder if I mentioned it but. In the StrikerS opening it DOES have Nanoha and Fate together during that Relics moment... It also shows Erio and Caro together, so there has to be a reason for it... Right?
Lets not try that Op and Ed clue searching again, cause it would also mean that Nanoha would die and be one with the stars.


EDIT:

Lesson started, play with you later again...
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Old 2007-05-24, 20:40   Link #192
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Fair enough.

Though the following would be out of topic from the thread...

Spoiler for Off-topic rant:


See Darco_emp?

Falling apart....

It's only a matter of time...
Sorry, I can’t argue against your post, using my English it would take a lot of time. To sum up, it's only a matter of how much have happened in this series, ignoring all the non relevant successes and filler, and how many episodes it would really take to fit that plot in a normal anime.

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I need to find more evidence for FxN. *Ponders*
Well. I wonder if I mentioned it but. In the StrikerS opening it DOES have Nanoha and Fate together during that Relics moment... It also shows Erio and Caro together, so there has to be a reason for it... Right?
Surely they are still paired in this opening for a few sequences, but they had practically the complete opening of the second season for them together. This is a step back, but there was no choice, they needed to show the new characters.

-Saludos, Haru
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Old 2007-05-24, 20:49   Link #193
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Yuuno only fought one of the Jewel Seed monsters... And failed at even beating that one. I still find it hard to believe he could be that high of a mage. If he is, why make him waste all his talent sitting in a library all day?
*Shrug*

And I was just looking for something to consider evidence that was from the series itself ok? :<
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Old 2007-05-24, 20:55   Link #194
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Fair enough.

Though the following would be out of topic from the thread...

Spoiler for Off-topic rant:


See Darco_emp?

Falling apart....

It's only a matter of time...
it creeps me out but i have to agree with chaos here.
sure it could be a bit better in terms of char and story development, but.. why try to make something perfect and maybe overdo it that way, instead of enjoy it like it is
i really don't get haru's point here, maybe he was expecting too much from strikers.
at last i'm statisfied with the char development. for story development is enough room there. we're with 8 episodes barely on 1/3 of this season.
my guess is, the season is not being made as last season, so there is no reason to make all things clear.


edit:
well Yuuno might be a A mage. there is no point in being a A Mage = Able to fly, able to fire off some nuke skills, able to do that what other A Rank Mages do.
Magic can be from various sort and type, and Yuuno seem's more talentet in defense, binding, healing and... reading book magic then offensive.
you'd ever try'd to beat some boss monster in a RPG with just your supporter charackters?
i think it's obviously that yuuno has some power, maybe A, maybe even AA, maybe below A. but his offensive skills are just crappy. no wonder he can't beat a jewel seed monster.
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Old 2007-05-24, 21:31   Link #195
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Yuuno's powers don't lie in offense. He's an incredible support mage, but he's not the best person to be in combat.
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Old 2007-05-24, 22:14   Link #196
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i wouldn't say "incredebil"
if you compare his support abillitys to, hum, *try not to use nanoha or hayate,* Fate's offensive, or speed abillity's, it's more "above average" then anything else
and i don't think he will be fighting in strikers, since he's more suitable for the ressearch thingy
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Old 2007-05-24, 22:59   Link #197
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i wouldn't say "incredebil"
if you compare his support abillitys to, hum, *try not to use nanoha or hayate,* Fate's offensive, or speed abillity's, it's more "above average" then anything else
and i don't think he will be fighting in strikers, since he's more suitable for the ressearch thingy
It is neither prudent, nor fair to compare a "support" person's capabilities with a "combat" personnel. Their strengths and contributions to the team differ greatly. Comparing Yuuno to a combat Mage is like comparing a Goalkeeper to a Striker. What's the point?

Do you also regularly compare a Cleric's healing skill with a Warrior's bash? A Monk's defensive buff with a Warlock's poison spells?

As any competent gamer will tell you, trying to engage a high-level mob without a good support character is SUICIDE. Just like trying to play a soccer/hockey match without a goalkeeper.

Erio and Caro are currently the best example of how a support-Mage can turn the tides of a battle. On his own, Erio was basically swatted like a fly against the Type-3 Drone. Once he got boosted by two of Caro's enchantments though, he sliced that Drone like a hot knife through butter.

Caro was also instrumental in making sure he could score a hit on Nanoha, and even Teana acknowledges Caro's contribution to the team during their first mock Drone battle.

If Yuuno was not in battle, A's would have ended very much prematurely, since Nanoha and Fate would be DEAD. Annihilation Lightning, anyone? Notice how he was the ONLY one who recognised the threat that the spell posed, and did not need prompting to cast his protection spell (the Wolkenritter had to warn Arf, Fate and Nanoha about the danger).

Knowledge is power, and Yuuno has it. His talent and raw skill in using magic without the aid of a device is also commendable. Nanoha was shown to be using magic without using a device in Ep08, but she is already 19. Yuuno was flying around and casting spells device-less at the age of 9 (and possibly younger, since we've not been privy to his history yet). Just imagine the potential Yuuno will have if he ever decides to adopt a device of his own (gloves like Caro perhaps?)

Cheers.
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Old 2007-05-24, 23:17   Link #198
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Knowledge is power, and Yuuno has it. His talent and raw skill in using magic without the aid of a device is also commendable. Nanoha was shown to be using magic without using a device in Ep08, but she is already 19. Yuuno was flying around and casting spells device-less at the age of 9 (and possibly younger, since we've not been privy to his history yet). Just imagine the potential Yuuno will have if he ever decides to adopt a device of his own (gloves like Caro perhaps?)

Cheers.
Maybe he can't use any device, just like arf and zafira. Remember we don't know anything about Yuuno's race, we only know he looks like a human or a ferret, but nothing more, maybe he isn’t a human, but something else.

Saludos, Haru
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Old 2007-05-24, 23:20   Link #199
krisslanza
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RH was Yuuno's Device, wasn't it? He gave it away. But that's besides the point, we need another relationship thing to come up...
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Old 2007-05-24, 23:26   Link #200
Lunariska
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Feretania *just kidding*

you made your point. well i'm playing rpg's like this: be so strong that you one hit and nuke all enemy's, before your turn ends.
boom.
ok, that's not elsewhere possible but in the most games.
yuuno may be strong at defense and stuff, but you can't wind with only defense. ( that's was what i'm getting at )
but you CAN, most likely injured but alive, beat someone with only offensive.
i didn't say yuuno is weak or something, just that's no wonder that the jewel beast beat him up.
and his potenial when using a davice. well, dunno.. maybe arround S or if he posses a powerfull device, S+, but you know.. he will have to use limiter, like the rest of his unit. but i think since he don't fight anymore, he don't have to use a davice or anything like that stuff.


i guess we went way too far off topic

edit: i don't want to read 10 whole pages 'bout realtionship from which i'm maybe in 50% interestet. could someone please listen up which relationsships was already discussed?

edit2: rofl. i'm sorry for that terrible english, but it's late ( 6am now.. i forgot to sleep -.- that will be a happy day ) and beside that, i'm still learning ( and that's quite hard w/o a teacher, school or something like that )
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