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Old 2008-10-14, 14:19   Link #1041
BPHaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Not so many non-Japanese fans have access to the Sound Stages, no, but Japanese fans do. And as StrikerS shows by the heavy amount of subjects they used from the A's Sound Stages, such changes are very much canon.
Actually I was thinking in counting the downloads too, so we would have a more precise number. But anyway yes, the Drama CDS are pretty much canon, that's a fact, but in the time being almost nothing apart of fillers happened there, because as I said most fans only watches the series and they wouldn't want to don't know what is going on when they watch the next episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Nanoha also said that Fate was consciously keeping her distance from Vivio. That is in no way subject to interpretation. It's a literal description of a consious action.
Yes, that's completely objective. But nothing has changed at all really, since the epilogue of StrikerS we know that RF6 got disbanded and everyone ended working in different places, so is not strange that happens. As I said is normal in families, especially if we take in count the Japanese culture. Well, you can take this action in many ways since nothing is specified, just don't impose an specific point of view.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Again: Nanoha said that their relationship was changing. Unless you're suggesting that Nanoha's relationship with Fate is so shallow that she can't even recognize a change between Fate and her own daughter, I'm having a hard time figuring out why I should not take this literally.
What? I'm not saying that you shouldn't take that way, but you can take it in many other ways. We discussed it during... 3 pages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And turning it into a Fate/Nanoha/Vivio scene would still not solve the issue of Nanoha's insecurities never being displayed prior to the battle. Unless you want to erase that too, though that would make one wonder where on earth that plot is going.
You have plenty of time to show those insecurities before the battle if you want ^^

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
But the Fate/Erio/Caro was Fate's plotline, if you drop that from her final battle (which you would, because your scenario is a Fate/Nanoha/Vivio one, giving no room for Fate/Erio/Caro as either would mess up the other if stuffed together) you would be abandoning their plotline before it is finished, that's bad writing.
No, there is plenty of time for them, you should have it before the final battle of course ^^

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Total characters relevant to the plot: 37
37? Did you mean 7?
The 3 Aces, Subaru, Tea, Vivio, and Jail

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, and popularity isn't one of them.
Statics, since always, has been used to estimate popularity, among many other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
A slightly more accurate measurement would be to take all artwork drawn since the release of StrikerS, and compare that. For an even higher level of accuracy, you'd probably have to count all artwork drawn since Erio and Caro's introduction. Anything drawn before that is irrelevant, because it doesn't take Erio and Caro in as a factor.
The people who liked Fate and Nanoha when the first 2 series ere released are still there, so you should count them if you want to take in count the complete sample. It depends on what you want to measure.
Otherwise it would be like releasing a new cellphone to compete with another company, and start counting the market contribution from the date you released your last model, ignoring that the competency already has 2.000.000 of faithful clients.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So, say I was an artist, and someone asks me to draw a piece of art of... say... Vampire Knight, a show I watched a couple of episodes of, but don't really like. I draw a nice piece for that person because I like him, does that mean I suddenly like Vampire Knight?
No, but in the general case an artist doesn't draw something if someone doesn't want it. So in this case your hypothetical drawing counts as your friend and all the others who share their preferences.

Also, draw me a Yuki x Zero fanart

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Just to make this perfectly clear since Haru seems to be having trouble wrapping his head around it:

I cannot draw, and lots of other people can't either. So because we cannot draw or choose not to draw Nanoha fanart, our opinions as to who is the best character suddenly do not count for anything? Bullshit. Now go back to the drawing board and find another way of measuring character popularity, preferably one that depends solely on a person possessing an opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And I explained to you two times that the ability to draw itself is a critical factor that excludes votes.
That's not how statics works, statics approximate real numbers taking a representative sample when taking the real measure of the population isn't economically feasible. You get a representative sample taking in consideration a minimal size of the population without any slants to guarantee a low error.
So it's not like "the people who doesn't buy X magazine don't count on their polls!", because the whole population is estimated with an error usually less than 5% considering that the distribution of relevant properties of the taken sample is representative. In our case "drawing" doesn't has a slant towards Fate, Nanoha, or any other properties.
For more information you can read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)

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Old 2008-10-14, 14:46   Link #1042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
*Rant on statistics*
Screw your statistics! GIMME MY VOTE!

*Comartemis Falcon Punches Haru for missing the point*

I don't care about "representative samples", you're excluding a huge portion of the fanbase by only counting people who draw. Exactly how many people do you think we have on AS who actually draw their own fanart? Somewhere between 2 and 5, probably, out of several dozen members frequenting the forums on a regular basis. Imagine a presidential election where the only people who vote are people who belong to or actively participate in the Democratic or Republican parties; you're missing out on all the votes from the Independents!
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Old 2008-10-14, 14:58   Link #1043
BPHaru
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Screw your statistics! GIMME MY VOTE!

*Comartemis Falcon Punches Haru for missing the point*

I don't care about "representative samples", you're excluding a huge portion of the fandom by only counting people who draw. Exactly how many people do you think we have on AS who actually draw their own fanart? Somewhere between 2 and 5, probably, out of several dozen members frequenting the forums on a regular basis. Imagine a presidential election where the only people who vote are people who belong to or actively participate in the Democratic or Republican parties; you're missing out on all the votes from the Independents!
In fact, if you estimate the final results of a presidential election using a poll given too the people who can draw, probably you will get a good estimation since drawing isn't a critical factor in that context. Except if a candidate is promoting artists or something like that.
I'll not teach statics here, so if you don't want to trust in my estimations you're free to do it, but I can guarantee that I have the enough knowledge to do it correctly and I'm conscious that I didn't make any mistake on prupose.

Also, Captain Falcon is my main at Brawl, so your Falcon Punch got Kneed back!

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Old 2008-10-14, 15:14   Link #1044
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I'll not teach statics here, so if you don't want to trust in my estimations you're free to do it, but I can guarantee that I have the enough knowledge to do it correctly and I'm conscious that I didn't make any mistake on prupose.
Like arkhangelsk and his precious SoD? Excuse me if I remain extremely skeptical of your methods, Haru; I have no faith in any system which places the opinions of a minority over those of a majority, and "fans who draw" are very much in the minority of the Nanoha fanbase.
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Old 2008-10-14, 15:23   Link #1045
BPHaru
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Like arkhangelsk and his precious SoD? Excuse me if I remain extremely skeptical of your methods, Haru; I have no faith in any system which places the opinions of a minority over those of a majority, and "fans who draw" are very much in the minority of the Nanoha fanbase.
I can mathematically demonstrate the errors of such estimations, but I'm not taking back my old books or giving classes. So if you don't want to believe in this kind of estimations, remember to don't watch the weather forecast again ^^

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Old 2008-10-14, 15:43   Link #1046
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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Actually I was thinking in counting the downloads too, so we would have a more precise number. But anyway yes, the Drama CDS are pretty much canon, that's a fact, but in the time being almost nothing apart of fillers happened there, because as I said most fans only watches the series and they wouldn't want to don't know what is going on when they watch the next episode.
HAHAHA! Almost nothing but fillers happened there? Surely you jest? Many of the things that should have been in StrikerS ended up in the Sound Stages, plot relevant information comes in piles when listening to the Sound Stages.

And 'most people only watch the anime' does not lessen the canonicity of the Sound Stages. As I said, information from the A's Sound Stages was used in StrikerS, so information from the StrikerS Sound Stages will surely be used in a fourth season.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Yes, that's completely objective. But nothing has changed at all really, since the epilogue of StrikerS we know that RF6 got disbanded and everyone ended working in different places, so is not strange that happens. As I said is normal in families, especially if we take in count the Japanese culture. Well, you can take this action in many ways since nothing is specified, just don't impose an specific point of view.
'consciously keeping a distance' I am not talking about physical distance here, and neither is Nanoha. Nanoha is talking about Fate distancing herself as a mother (and those are her literal words).

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
What? I'm not saying that you shouldn't take that way, but you can take it in many other ways. We discussed it during... 3 pages?
You said, and I quote, nothing has changed. I explained that Nanoha stated something very much did change, and you answered 'don't take it too literally'

Begging your pardon if I take Nanoha, Vivio's mother and Fate's closest friend/lover, blatantly agreeing to the description of 'Fate is more like an older sister now' quite literally. I do expect her to be close enough to her own daughter and closest friend/lover to recognize and accurately label such a relationship.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
You have plenty of time to show those insecurities before the battle if you want ^^
Proper management of screentime demands we lessen the happy family scenes in that case. Nanoha/Vivio is not the only plotline after all, with so many storylines to fix, scenes will have to be cut.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
No, there is plenty of time for them, you should have it before the final battle of course ^^
No. What you're doing right now is simply what you've been doing all along, discarding Fate/Erio/Caro in order to get more NanoFate. Fate/Erio/Caro was supposed to be Fate's plotline, in order to properly manage such a plotline we need to see it through its conclusion, which will include Jail and Erio and Caro. Now the only time for them to meet up is after the Cradle rises, which means that its impossible to solve this plotline before the final battle, and this is not even getting into the emotional mindsets that would have progressed in the battles even if we somehow did. A fully motivated Fate fresh from her Erio/Caro buff? And then what? Have her sink into despair again for the purpose of Nanoha/Vivio/Fate? That would make the entire Fate/Erio/Caro pointless!

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
37? Did you mean 7?
The 3 Aces, Subaru, Tea, Vivio, and Jail
I sincerely hope you're not serious about this Haru. If you are, I am losing hope of ever being able to properly discuss editing and scriptwriting with you, as so far you have shown zero skill in the subject.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Statics, since always, has been used to estimate popularity, among many other things.
Yes, but in this case, popularity does not enter into it, you admitted this yourself.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
The people who liked Fate and Nanoha when the first 2 series ere released are still there, so you should count them if you want to take in count the complete sample. It depends on what you want to measure.
Otherwise it would be like releasing a new cellphone to compete with another company, and start counting the market contribution from the date you released your last model, ignoring that the competency already has 2.000.000 of faithful clients.
There is a really big glaring line between your comparison: Phones are objects you use, you don't buy them and are done with it. Drawings you can draw and be done with them. The people who drew Nanoha for years ago may no longer like Nanoha now, if you count their vote you are counting the wrong vote.

If you want to know how well a product sells now you check the sales charts of this month, and compare the products. Depending on the product this may or may not be an accurate choice, so lets take CD's and discard downloads for a moment. If a band that has been a rage four years ago (Nanoha and Fate) releases a record the same time as a new band (Erio and Caro) then you check the sales of those two bands, but you do not count the old records of the older band. After all, this new record is what counts now as it is new and more comparative to the record of the new band.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
No, but in the general case an artist doesn't draw something if someone doesn't want it. So in this case your hypothetical drawing counts as your friend and all the others who share their preferences.
Which could lead to seven people requesting one drawing. And yet you only count one point. I still don't see the accuracy here.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Also, draw me a Yuki x Zero fanart


Quote:
Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
That's not how statics works, statics approximate real numbers taking a representative sample when taking the real measure of the population isn't economically feasible. You get a representative sample taking in consideration a minimal size of the population without any slants to guarantee a low error.
The error in this is that you limit your target representative to only those who can draw, actual statistics will try to inquire as wide a target representative as possible.

Say these statistics were to be reality. In the case of NanoFate, artists are only one group. Another group would be fans of the series. Another group fans of the genre, but not the show in particular. Another group people who have never watched the show. And so on and so on.

Your statistics only show how many artists are interested in what character, and even that is subject to debate as I earlier pointed out. Hence, it is not an accurate statistic of popularity as a whole.
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Old 2008-10-14, 16:22   Link #1047
Avatar_notADV
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BP, one aspect of statistics is that the population from which you draw a sample needs to be representative of the whole population for the statistics derived from that sample to have any validity whatsoever.

One thing that I've learned is that, for anime fandom, that "representative population" doesn't exist. There's a hell of a lot of fans out there, and it's very difficult to interpret more than "a lot of fans like x" from "I see a lot of x".

That's especially dangerous with fan art, because you're getting a lot of Japanese opinions - there's an awful lot of Japanese fan artists and not that many American ones. But in practically every other form of expression, you're unable to interpret what the Japanese are talking about, 'cause even if you can read Japanese, you certainly don't do it casually, and that's going to limit your exposure to the Japanese equivalents of Asuki. ;p So as it pertains to fan art, taking a sample of fan art topics and generalizing that as to general popularity of those topics is going to fail miserably, because the Japanese population is massively over-represented in the fan art pool.

That is, of course, unless you're specifically interested in Japanese opinion, but then you also have to deal with Japanese views towards lesbianism in general, which is mainly that it's something that a girl might dabble in before getting serious and finding a guy later in life. In other words, if you're trying to argue that Nanoha and Fate should form an exclusive matrimonial union, you really don't wanna go look at the Japanese opinion...
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Old 2008-10-14, 16:26   Link #1048
BPHaru
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
HAHAHA! Almost nothing but fillers happened there? Surely you jest? Many of the things that should have been in StrikerS ended up in the Sound Stages, plot relevant information comes in piles when listening to the Sound Stages.
I listen to the sound stages as well. Yes, almost nothing happens that is relevant to what is intended to be the plot of the series, at least in my opinion, so you can perfectly watch the anime alone and ignore the information of the sound stages, most people do it and they didn't seem to have any problems. That was my point.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
'consciously keeping a distance' I am not talking about physical distance here, and neither is Nanoha. Nanoha is talking about Fate distancing herself as a mother.
I think you can interpret it both ways.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Begging your pardon if I take Nanoha, Vivio's mother and Fate's closest friend/lover, blatantly agreeing to the description of 'Fate is more like an older sister now' quite literally. I do expect her to be close enough to her own daughter and closest friend/lover to recognize and accurately label such a relationship.
As I said, that was already discussed. And yes, we concluded that those were two of the possibilities. also you can't guarantee that that's the real situation, even if Nanoha agreed with Hayate in that for many already discussed reasons, as we said in like 3 pages.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Proper management of screentime demands we lessen the happy family scenes in that case. Nanoha/Vivio is not the only plotline after all, with so many storylines to fix, scenes will have to be cut.
Yeah, we can cut down other things like other users has suggested. If you cut down all the unnecessary filler episodes and characters we would have even time to make a NanoFate weeding episode and a Syn introduction episode or whatever you want ^^

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No. What you're doing right now is simply what you've been doing all along, discarding Fate/Erio/Caro in order to get more NanoFate. Fate/Erio/Caro was supposed to be Fate's plotline, in order to properly manage such a plotline we need to see it through its conclusion, which will include Jail and Erio and Caro. Now the only time for them to meet up is after the Cradle rises, which means that its impossible to solve this plotline before the final battle.
It's not impossible, just make the Cradle thing after they fight with Spaghetti, or whatever you want, but i don't know what we're trying to "fix" a bad plot written over an even worst plot, the logic decision would be to rebuild the whole thing from zero, that way we'll get a better result.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I sincerely hope you're not serious about this Haru. If you are, I am losing hope of ever being able to properly discuss editing and scriptwriting with you, as so far you have shown zero skill in the subject.
I'm serious, I can write a series way better than StrikerS just using those characters for the main cast, even if I have zero skill in the subjec

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, but in this case, popularity does not enter into it, you admitted this yourself.
Really? I don't recall saying that. If I said it was a mistake, this case shouldn't be different of the rest.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which could lead to seven people requesting one drawing. And yet you only count one point. I still don't see the accuracy here.
That's the same for every character, so in the mean is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If you want to know how well a product sells now you check the sales charts of this month, and compare the products. Depending on the product this may or may not be an accurate choice, so lets take CD's and discard downloads for a moment. If a band that has been a rage four years ago (Nanoha and Fate) releases a record the same time as a new band (Erio and Caro) then you check the sales of those two bands, but you do not count the old records of the older band. After all, this new record is what counts now as it is new and more comparative to the record of the new band.
I said this depends of what you want to measure, if the actual sells of the market contribution. We're counting different things here, each method is valid for its own purpose.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The error in this is that you limit your target representative to only those who can draw, actual statistics will try to inquire as wide a target representative as possible.
Actually I think it's a pretty good number, making the sample wider won't contribute too much in decreasing the error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Say these statistics were to be reality. In the case of NanoFate, artists are only one group. Another group would be fans of the series. Another group fans of the genre, but not the show in particular. Another group people who have never watched the show. And so on and so on
That's the same for every character, so in the mean is the same.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
BP, one aspect of statistics is that the population from which you draw a sample needs to be representative of the whole population for the statistics derived from that sample to have any validity whatsoever.

One thing that I've learned is that, for anime fandom, that "representative population" doesn't exist. There's a hell of a lot of fans out there, and it's very difficult to interpret more than "a lot of fans like x" from "I see a lot of x".

That's especially dangerous with fan art, because you're getting a lot of Japanese opinions - there's an awful lot of Japanese fan artists and not that many American ones. But in practically every other form of expression, you're unable to interpret what the Japanese are talking about, 'cause even if you can read Japanese, you certainly don't do it casually, and that's going to limit your exposure to the Japanese equivalents of Asuki. ;p So as it pertains to fan art, taking a sample of fan art topics and generalizing that as to general popularity of those topics is going to fail miserably, because the Japanese population is massively over-represented in the fan art pool.

That is, of course, unless you're specifically interested in Japanese opinion, but then you also have to deal with Japanese views towards lesbianism in general, which is mainly that it's something that a girl might dabble in before getting serious and finding a guy later in life. In other words, if you're trying to argue that Nanoha and Fate should form an exclusive matrimonial union, you really don't wanna go look at the Japanese opinion...
Yeah, it was only considering Japanese fanmade works since "we don't count". And it wasn't about NanoFate or "NanoFate being a couple forever and not only a phase", but about the popularity of Caro and Erio, since I said that they weren't very popular and Keroko said that I was talking without foundations ^^U

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Old 2008-10-14, 17:46   Link #1049
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
I listen to the sound stages as well. Yes, almost nothing happens that is relevant to what is intended to be the plot of the series, at least in my opinion, so you can perfectly watch the anime alone and ignore the information of the sound stages, most people do it and they didn't seem to have any problems. That was my point.
From what I gather of our conversations, anything that doesn't involve Nanoha and Fate doesn't count as plot to you. No, with that attitude there certainly wasn't much plot in the Sound Stages. Either that, or you only listened to SS01, which I will fully admit was little more then filler. SS02 dives head-first in Nanoha/Vivio development and Fate/Erio/Caro development (several of those scenes should have been animated, dammit!). SS03 gives Rein some background, as well as great background on Reinforce I and the Wolkenritter. Zest, Agito and Lutecia are grown, background on the Numbers is given and much more. SS04 provides info on what all the characters are doing now that the chaos has settled, provides muchos yummy background on what Vivio is doing, wolkie fluff, Nanoha's condition after going Blaster 3 SLB on Vivio and the skills the seniors pass on to the young.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
I think you can interpret it both ways.
Considering Nanoha is talking about Fate 'distancing herself as a mother' and not 'going away for work' I do wonder just how you got to that conclusion?

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
As I said, that was already discussed. And yes, we concluded that those were two of the possibilities. also you can't guarantee that that's the real situation, even if Nanoha agreed with Hayate in that for many already discussed reasons, as we said in like 3 pages.
'We' never concluded anything. You are the only one saying Nanoha and Hayate are lying to us.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Yeah, we can cut down other things like other users has suggested. If you cut down all the unnecessary filler episodes and characters we would have even time to make a NanoFate weeding episode and a Syn introduction episode or whatever you want ^^
Now you're drawing out what we've said and turning it around to serve your own needs. Again. NanoFate isn't the only thing that needs to be managed. Managing 30 characters is possible, but not if you flounder around screentime. Episodic screentime matters too, and while the occasional 'awww' scene isn't bad, there were many scenes that were totally redundant and added nothing to the plot whatsoever. In an editors room, those scenes are usually the first to go.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
It's not impossible, just make the Cradle thing after they fight with Spaghetti, or whatever you want, but i don't know what we're trying to "fix" a bad plot written over an even worst plot, the logic decision would be to rebuild the whole thing from zero, that way we'll get a better result.
A fully motivated Fate fresh from her Erio/Caro buff? And then what? Have her sink into despair again for the purpose of Nanoha/Vivio/Fate? That would make the entire Fate/Erio/Caro pointless!

The plot of StrikerS is fixable without rebuilding it from the ground up, the problem is that you just can't accept that the way StrikerS executed NanoFate was one of the many problems.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
I'm serious, I can write a series way better than StrikerS just using those characters for the main cast, even if I have zero skill in the subjec
No, you'd just screw over all the characters and write some sort of NanoFate lovefest. That's actually proving my point what you're doing. Your solution is to destroy the plotlines you don't care about, instead of fixing them. That's not how editors, nor scriptwriters, work. A scriptwriter can't just say 'Gee, I don't like this plotline, lets just discard it regardless of what it does to the overal plot and castmembers involved' any less then an editor can think 'Gee, I don't like this scene, lets just discard it regardless of what it does to the overal plot and castembers involved'

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Really? I don't recall saying that. If I said it was a mistake, this case shouldn't be different of the rest.

"Yeah, you're right, that was my mistake. Popularity level is directly proportional to how much importance the people give to the characters, but there are other factors too, for example an episodic antagonist character with a controversial role may get the attention of the people and they would want what happens with him even if they like other characters way more. So not being popular != people don't care about them, my mistake."


Your words, directly copied from the last page.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
That's the same for every character, so in the mean is the same.
No it isn't, those numbers will vary per character per drawing with zero control. This makes using artists completely unreliable as they have an unknown number of motivators that aren't being counted.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
I said this depends of what you want to measure, if the actual sells of the market contribution. We're counting different things here, each method is valid for its own purpose.
And artists as a group alone aren't valid to represent whether people care about a character.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Actually I think it's a pretty good number, making the sample wider won't contribute too much in decreasing the error.
... you can't be serious. Where on earth did you learn to make statistics? Overall statistics demand a wide target audience. You can't limit yourself to only one source when measuring the overall popularity!

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Yeah, it was only considering Japanese fanmade works since "we don't count". And it wasn't about NanoFate or "NanoFate being a couple forever and not only a phase", but about the popularity of Caro and Erio, since I said that they weren't very popular and Keroko said that I was talking without foundations ^^U
You were saying nobody cared about them, and when I challenged that you started breaking out flawed statistics to try and prove that.
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Old 2008-10-14, 17:55   Link #1050
Comartemis
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... you can't be serious. Where on earth did you learn to make statistics? Overall statistics demand a wide target audience. You can't limit yourself to only one source when measuring the overall popularity!
Of course he can! That way he can question a group composed entirely of NanoFate artists on what the best pairing is and then say "See? Statistics say NanoFate is the most popular!"
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Old 2008-10-14, 18:16   Link #1051
BPHaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Considering Nanoha is talking about Fate 'distancing herself as a mother' and not 'going away for work' I do wonder just how you got to that conclusion?
Both phrases can imply the same, that's how I got the conclusion. Also this was already discussed, go check some backlog if you want a detailed response, because I'm not writing it again.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You are the only one saying Nanoha and Hayate are lying to us.
It's good that you mention that, but no, I didn't stated it as a fact, that's one of the many possible interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
the problem is that you just can't accept that the way StrikerS executed NanoFate was one of the many problems.
It was one of the best things for the commercial point of view, but it didn't do anything good for the quality since as most of the ideas this wasn't well executed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No, you'd just screw over all the characters and write some sort of NanoFate lovefest
Wow, What a nice idea! I'm going to do it!

Actually, no. I prefer drama over romance and action, so if I write something one day, expect some tragic drama without any action... with a romantic end if it's NanoFate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Your words, directly copied from the last page.
I don't get your point, but think as you want

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No it isn't, those numbers will vary per character per drawing with zero control. This makes using artists completely unreliable as they have an unknown number of motivators that aren't being counted.
There is nothing about "zero control", it's a Gauss distribution.

Spoiler:


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... you can't be serious. Where on earth did you learn to make statistics?
In my castle

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Of course he can! That way he can question a group composed entirely of NanoFate artists on what the best pairing is and then say "See? Statistics say NanoFate is the most popular!"
That wouldn't be a representative sample. I took the whole danbooru.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Overall statistics demand a wide target audience. You can't limit yourself to only one source when measuring the overall popularity!
I don't know if you really learned statistics, but after reading your last post I think I'm giving up, you're free to think that I spoke without foundations if you want.

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Old 2008-10-14, 18:25   Link #1052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post

It's good that you mention that, but no, I didn't stated it as a fact, that's one of the many possible interpretations.
... It's nothing personal but this has really been bugging me. You keep on saying that it's one of many possible interpretations but you've never once stated (and I mean in this discussion not in the past) what those interpretations are, Keroko has stated his position but we don't know what these many interpretations you keep talking about are. Please tell it and back up that interpretation.
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Old 2008-10-14, 18:33   Link #1053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
... It's nothing personal but this has really been bugging me. You keep on saying that it's one of many possible interpretations but you've never once stated (and I mean in this discussion not in the past) what those interpretations are, Keroko has stated his position but we don't know what these many interpretations you keep talking about are. Please tell it and back up that interpretation.
You have the ones Keroko mentioned, counting them we already have... 3? If you're creative you can get more ^^

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Old 2008-10-14, 18:34   Link #1054
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Oh, well, if it's Caro and Elio being unpopular, that's different...

...well, not from the statistics angle. (For one thing, why would you assume a Gaussian distribution? What's the null hypothesis, anyway?)

To put it bluntly, I'd want to listen to the original material as far as the sound stages are concerned, or at least to have it translated by someone I trusted, before I'd go too far into reading things into small comments made therein. Not trying to insult the original translator, but this stuff is hard, and small differences in interpretation can occur even among good translators. (There are, after all, more than a few of those between the fansubs of the original series and A's and the official version! ;p)
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Old 2008-10-14, 18:35   Link #1055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
You have the ones Keroko mentioned, counting them we already have... 3? If you're creative you can get more ^^

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Keroko's said one. That Fate is more like a sister to Vivio because she is distancing herself a statement which Nanoha agrees with.
... I don't want numbers I'd like you to state what interpretations you keep mentioning.
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Old 2008-10-14, 18:44   Link #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
Keroko's said one. That Fate is more like a sister to Vivio because she is distancing herself a statement which Nanoha agrees with.
... I don't want numbers I'd like you to state what interpretations you keep mentioning.
Here there are 2:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1049

2 more:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1046

And here's another:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1039

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Old 2008-10-14, 19:02   Link #1057
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NanoFate. Serious business. More important that fighting the good fight and defending the world.
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Old 2008-10-14, 19:03   Link #1058
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... I can't help but wonder where I fit in with all this.

'Cause I like both Yuunoha and NanoFate. 0_0
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Old 2008-10-14, 19:05   Link #1059
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
... I can't help but wonder where I fit in with all this.

'Cause I like both Yuunoha and NanoFate. 0_0
As do I, I also enjoy pretty much all pairings. This isn't NanoFate vs Yuunoha. In fact I'm no longer sure what's being argued.

BPHaru: Please act as though I were a 5 year old child and spell it out for me, in your own words or at least quote Keroko's because I cannot see the different interpretations and you still have not stated where you stand.
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Old 2008-10-14, 19:10   Link #1060
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Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
As do I, I also enjoy pretty much all pairings. This isn't NanoFate vs Yuunoha. In fact I'm no longer sure what's being argued.
It's pretty much degenerated into Haru displaying his stupidity. *shrugs* Course, the rest of the Legion will undoubtedly rally to their leader.

I mean, I'm still slightly unnerved by how he and VT actually liked Dedication. Although there was much lulz to behold

Ah, NanoFate. Serious Business. :eyeroll:

NanoFate has its merits but it's ridiculous to see NanoFate in S1 and A's when the theme of both is friendship. Now the yuri potential is undeniable, but that's all there is, potential. It's the difference between, say, Misae and her brother in Kaze no Stigma and Kyoshiro and Nanoka in Koi Kaze; in the former we have potential :incest:, in the second we have full blown blood related incest. Both cases it's got romantic undertones and all~

Now, in my khracked up take on Tempest's Gospel, I've got NanoNolandFate planned Of course that's if Tempest doesn't kill me first
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