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Old 2008-10-14, 19:35   Link #1061
Nightengale
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Haru, have I ever told you how much you remind me of a Ginji/Ban and Naruto/Sasuke fanboy? Because your arguments are extremely asimilar to his, ranging from lol statistics, vague~ self-interpreted canon to steadfast repetitive arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
To put it bluntly, I'd want to listen to the original material as far as the sound stages are concerned, or at least to have it translated by someone I trusted, before I'd go too far into reading things into small comments made therein. Not trying to insult the original translator, but this stuff is hard, and small differences in interpretation can occur even among good translators. (There are, after all, more than a few of those between the fansubs of the original series and A's and the official version! ;p)
Language subtleties, true. It's much of an issue in terms with argumentations with Haru as well since he values his own interpretation of how certain lines are elaborately spoken. Technically for him though, it's still much of an indirect vs direct interpretation opinions stand-point.

Just as he used to casually ignore Fate's mental thoughts and remarks on Hayate and Nanoha (( both thought equally without a single sporadic changes in regards to both names )) as her friends, because if it goes by his interpretation of 'calling friends when close still equals etc etc etc' then Hayate would technically be a part of the relationship as well.
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Old 2008-10-14, 19:36   Link #1062
Wild Goose
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Actually a NanoFateHaya triangle would be awesome. Then we can have the Episode 15 singoff again.

What bout my starr~
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Old 2008-10-14, 19:42   Link #1063
Nightengale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Actually a NanoFateHaya triangle would be awesome. Then we can have the Episode 15 singoff again.

What bout my starr~
That was one problem I disliked about StrikerS. Despite A's to StrikerS emphasizing on the 'trio' aspect of the dynamics, with seemingly a lot of story and emotional focus going to Hayate, the actual series made Hayate look so... disconnected from Nanoha and Fate. Heck, she was disconnected from half the cast. It's not so bad if Hayate had stronger self-development from it, but no, all we got was a few casual remarks by Acous on her being a tool, Hayate throwing accusations at Regius's daughter... and some small stuff.
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Old 2008-10-14, 19:58   Link #1064
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Actually a NanoFateHaya triangle would be awesome. Then we can have the Episode 15 singoff again.

What bout my starr~
What about a NanoFateYuuno triangle?

Actually, if that's your thing I highly recommend DezoPeguin's works "Midnight of the Heart" and "Divided Heart". Very good, and last we talked he said he was planning to make more.
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Old 2008-10-14, 20:00   Link #1065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
What about a NanoFateYuuno triangle?

Actually, if that's your thing I highly recommend DezoPeguin's works "Midnight of the Heart" and "Divided Heart". Very good, and last we talked he said he was planning to make more.
I'm gonna suggest what I've been saying from the beginning. Giant. Orgy.
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Old 2008-10-14, 20:01   Link #1066
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I'm gonna suggest what I've been saying from the beginning. Giant. Orgy.
Hey, I'm cool with that.
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Old 2008-10-14, 20:05   Link #1067
Laith
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Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
I'm gonna suggest what I've been saying from the beginning. Giant. Orgy.
That is perhaps the best idea ever to solve shipping issues.
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Old 2008-10-14, 20:30   Link #1068
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That is perhaps the best idea ever to solve shipping issues.
Everybody wins.
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Old 2008-10-14, 20:34   Link #1069
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Everybody wins.
Particularly us the viewers :3
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Old 2008-10-14, 20:35   Link #1070
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Particularly us the viewers :3
And that's the best part of it. 8D
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Old 2008-10-14, 21:15   Link #1071
Comartemis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
That was one problem I disliked about StrikerS. Despite A's to StrikerS emphasizing on the 'trio' aspect of the dynamics, with seemingly a lot of story and emotional focus going to Hayate, the actual series made Hayate look so... disconnected from Nanoha and Fate. Heck, she was disconnected from half the cast. It's not so bad if Hayate had stronger self-development from it, but no, all we got was a few casual remarks by Acous on her being a tool, Hayate throwing accusations at Regius's daughter... and some small stuff.
Part of the reason why I would prefer having her on the front lines with Nanoha and Fate rather than sitting back in a big comfy chair shouting orders... or not, if you're following StrikerS ad verbatim.
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Old 2008-10-14, 21:25   Link #1072
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
That was one problem I disliked about StrikerS. Despite A's to StrikerS emphasizing on the 'trio' aspect of the dynamics, with seemingly a lot of story and emotional focus going to Hayate, the actual series made Hayate look so... disconnected from Nanoha and Fate. Heck, she was disconnected from half the cast. It's not so bad if Hayate had stronger self-development from it, but no, all we got was a few casual remarks by Acous on her being a tool, Hayate throwing accusations at Regius's daughter... and some small stuff.
Well, Hayate went through a very different experience than the one between Nanoha and Fate.

In Fate's case, Nanoha made a difference for her personally. She kept coming after her, even though she was a clueless newb with too much firepower, over and over. Nanoha beat Fate physically, sure, but she won her over at the same time; not in a "ha ha befriended' sense, but in an actual conversion. It didn't hurt that Fate's mom took that moment to betray her and then taunt her cruelly and maliciously, to be sure. But the thing that Nanoha did for Fate was very personal.

For Hayate, it wasn't like that. Up until the end of A's, Hayate doesn't know Nanoha or Fate except as a couple of friends of Suzuka's - nice kids, sure, but that's it. Signum and Vita have a really good impression of the two, but they weren't talking about it with Hayate at that point. Together, they save the world, but it wasn't so much "Nanoha and Fate saved Hayate" as it was "everybody saved everybody".

There's also a kind of juxtaposition between the two. Fate did things that she knew were wrong, even though she (and everyone else) knows that she had a good reason for doing them - her mom told her to and at that age she wasn't expected to go against that. So Fate feels like she's got something to atone for, even if nobody around her expects her to. Hayate's the other way around - she didn't actually do anything wrong at any point in A's, but other people think she did, because she intentionally assumed the responsibility in order to shield the Knights (and, cynically, because as a crippled little victim girl cruelly manipulated by TSAB insiders, she was effectively invulnerable to punishment).

Add to that Hayate having her support network mostly intact, compared to Fate and Arf against the whole world except Nanoha, and it's no shock that their relationships would develop quite differently.

All that said, none of that assumes or precludes a romantic relationship between any of the three. Nanoha and Fate may have or may not have, and Hayate may have with either (or both!) of them. I'd say Fate-Hayate would be a lot less likely than either of the other two combinations, just because Fate's more fixated on Nanoha, but there are many possibilities. For that matter, I fully expect Hayate to have taken the opportunity to sexually harass any and every other female member of the cast at some point, excluding the forwards (only because she specifically disclaims it in the sound stage, and frankly once Subaru and Teana are assigned elsewhere, given the opportunity, I would fully expect Hayate to attempt a bust check on them too!)

I actually scripted out a bunch of four-panel jokes based on the idea of an RF6 full of pervs, but alas, I cannot draw to save my life, so they shall remain unrealized... That said, an orgy just wouldn't work. Too many girls, not enough of which swing that way, and not enough valid male targets...
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Old 2008-10-14, 23:37   Link #1073
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Quote:
That said, an orgy just wouldn't work. Too many girls, not enough of which swing that way, and not enough valid male targets...
The solution to this problem is a wonderful little substance called "alcohol", Avatar.
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Old 2008-10-15, 00:10   Link #1074
Wild Goose
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In my personal crackverse which will never see the light of day, Hayate's ougi is called Rampage Ghost: Goldion Yuri Shift Crusher and takes the combined passion, fury, emotion and AI NO CHIKARA of every single female CC and OC and creates a powerful, powerful attack; an attack so powerful and mana intensive that it actually draws mana away.

FROM THE BARRIER JACKETS.

When the dust has settled, Hayate lounges on her throne, surrounded by nude female forms, and smirks happily.

"Keikakku doori," she purrs, while Signum and Shamal blush embarassedly as their Meister idly sekuharas them.

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Old 2008-10-15, 02:31   Link #1075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
The solution to this problem is a wonderful little substance called "alcohol", Avatar.


I object, Tequila works better all by itself XP
--------------------------------------------
No, Speaking seriusly (as the thread espesificates it) I think that Hayate is a bit inclined to a "relation" with Signum or Vita, didn'ty see how she feets with Fate and/ or Nanoha
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Old 2008-10-15, 03:28   Link #1076
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Both phrases can imply the same, that's how I got the conclusion. Also this was already discussed, go check some backlog if you want a detailed response, because I'm not writing it again.
No they can't. 'distancing herself as a mother' is an emotional progression, the very line itself states a consious action of moving away on an emotional level. It was answered in a question to an emotional bond between Fate and Vivio, and was followed up by Hayate's query, again one refering to their emotional relationship, which Nanoha confirms, that clearly locks it down as an emotional distance, not a physical one.

Again, this doesn't say anything about the relationship between Nanoha and Fate, but they're very clear on the relationship between Fate and Vivio.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
It's good that you mention that, but no, I didn't stated it as a fact, that's one of the many possible interpretations.
No it's not. Interpretation isn't even a part of this. It's wishful thinking and twisting of canon. You're basically saying 'well, that didn't really happen' even though it did.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
I don't get your point, but think as you want
The point was that you outright admitted that popularity =/= people not caring about a character, thus popularity does not enter into a statistic on whether people care about Erio and Caro, making a fanart comparison irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
There is nothing about "zero control", it's a Gauss distribution.

Spoiler:
It is zero control. You don't know how many people requested that drawing, so you have loose numbers flying around. Numbers which you are not counting. This makes the accuracy of 'its requested so it counts' impossible.

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Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
In my castle

I don't know if you really learned statistics, but after reading your last post I think I'm giving up, you're free to think that I spoke without foundations if you want.
... I'm having severe trouble believing that a university actually told you that when making an overall statistic, to only look at one sub-group. That's a fine example of contradictio in terminus.

Your method of statistics would be like asking the popularity of a sport team in its hometown. Which is fine if you want to know the popularity of the team in its hometown, but if you want to know how popular the club is among the country, you will have to look beyond its home-town, and ask people outside that town.

The same thing goes for character popularity, you can't just ask artists alone, you have to take other groups into account as well. If you would only ask artists, then you would only have a statistic of the popularity of a character among artists, but not the viewers as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
That was one problem I disliked about StrikerS. Despite A's to StrikerS emphasizing on the 'trio' aspect of the dynamics, with seemingly a lot of story and emotional focus going to Hayate, the actual series made Hayate look so... disconnected from Nanoha and Fate. Heck, she was disconnected from half the cast. It's not so bad if Hayate had stronger self-development from it, but no, all we got was a few casual remarks by Acous on her being a tool, Hayate throwing accusations at Regius's daughter... and some small stuff.
Ah yes, Hayate. They really should have done more with her after pushing her forward so much.

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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
What about a NanoFateYuuno triangle?
Harem ending!

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Originally Posted by TheShinySword View Post
As do I, I also enjoy pretty much all pairings. This isn't NanoFate vs Yuunoha. In fact I'm no longer sure what's being argued.
It started of as me pointing out that the way NanoFate was written disrupted the Nanoha/Vivio and Fate/Erio/Caro plot lines, and suggesting an alternative way of writing it so that both plot lines could exist and work.

Haru, seeing someone labeling NanoFate as one of the causes that StrikerS was less then it could have been, jumped to its defense. Me being me I met his claims head-on, things spiraled off from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Well, Hayate went through a very different experience than the one between Nanoha and Fate.

Spoiler for length:
We're well aware Hayate's introduction was different from Fate's, however the A's epilogue, as well as the A's to StrikerS manga, the Sound Stages, and a few scattered scenes in StrikerS, heavily suggest, if not prove, that Hayate is 'one of the three' (in fact, Shari says as much in the manga. 'the three Aces of the bureau')

Add to that they spend several years in High School together, and you know they formed a bond between the three of them. However, StrikerS barely plays into this bond that the other media do. Sure, there are a few scenes of the trio together saying meaningful things, but the only scene that had any actual content of importance was the episode 2 bed scene. If I recall the only actually plot-advancing scene that has the three together in the way the other sources put them commonly.

We know its there, we just never got to see it. That's what irks us.
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Old 2008-10-15, 05:42   Link #1077
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
The solution to this problem is a wonderful little substance called "alcohol", Avatar.
Alcohol is the solution to everything.
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Old 2008-10-15, 06:21   Link #1078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
which Nanoha confirms, that clearly locks it down as an emotional distance, not a physical one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You're basically saying 'well, that didn't really happen' even though it did.
Well, I thing I'll no try to change your opinion, so you can think that way about the series and this user if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The point was that you outright admitted that popularity =/= people not caring about a character, thus popularity does not enter into a statistic on whether people care about Erio and Caro, making a fanart comparison irrelevant
Yeah, that's right, but I thought we were just discussing about statistics now, I think I prefer to discuss those kind of topics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It is zero control. You don't know how many people requested that drawing, so you have loose numbers flying around. Numbers which you are not counting. This makes the accuracy of 'its requested so it counts' impossible.
Just make a limit and the mean would be the same, here is an associated error too that's why in the graphic you see the standard deviation, we don't know it but we can suppose a number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... I'm having severe trouble believing that a university actually told you that when making an overall statistic, to only look at one sub-group. That's a fine example of contradictio in terminus.

Your method of statistics would be like asking the popularity of a sport team in its hometown. Which is fine if you want to know the popularity of the team in its hometown, but if you want to know how popular the club is among the country, you will have to look beyond its home-town, and ask people outside that town.

The same thing goes for character popularity, you can't just ask artists alone, you have to take other groups into account as well. If you would only ask artists, then you would only have a statistic of the popularity of a character among artists, but not the viewers as a whole.
That's not what I has been saying, I think the locality may be a critical factor for asking someone's favorite sport team, but you can make a poll in a web page or in a magazine, and even if we only consider the "sub-group" of the people which have access to those, it would be a representative sample, and you can estimate the whole population using them with a given error, as it happens using "drawing" for estimating popularity of characters.

Cuídense y sigan sonriendo
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Old 2008-10-15, 07:27   Link #1079
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Wouldn't there be a significant part of the fandom (namely, the Japanese part who don't have access to internet, or don't bother posting about Nanoha) be excluded from that sampling, though? That could introduce a bias, if the Japanese, for cultural reasons, feel differently about Nanofate than the rest of the world.
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Old 2008-10-15, 08:00   Link #1080
Comartemis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
In my personal crackverse which will never see the light of day, Hayate's ougi is called Rampage Ghost: Goldion Yuri Shift Crusher and takes the combined passion, fury, emotion and AI NO CHIKARA of every single female CC and OC and creates a powerful, powerful attack; an attack so powerful and mana intensive that it actually draws mana away.

FROM THE BARRIER JACKETS.

When the dust has settled, Hayate lounges on her throne, surrounded by nude female forms, and smirks happily.

"Keikakku doori," she purrs, while Signum and Shamal blush embarassedly as their Meister idly sekuharas them.

WIN.

EPIC WIN.

That is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPHaru View Post
Well, I thing I'll no try to change your opinion, so you can think that way about the series and this user if you want.
It's not just Keroko who thinks you're a head case about this stuff, Haru. In case you haven't noticed, you have a reputation around here for being a complete whackjob when it comes to shipping. Your refusal to acknowledge that Kero has been consistently dynamiting nearly all points in favor of your "interpretations" only makes this much more obvious to those of us who weren't around for the Shipping Wars.
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