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Old 2007-05-18, 07:35   Link #61
Quarkboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CelesAurivern View Post
Then again, the editor should be shot for letting that go unchallenged.
Or no editing/qc at all, maybe.
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Old 2007-05-18, 09:11   Link #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
Though, some releases do have things like this, without 'translation' or tl notes. One of the releases I watched recently and noticed had a lot of Japanese words left in had honorifics like:

Shin-niichama

Toshihiko-bocchama (<---- and I have to admit, I don't even know the significance of that honorific - it may be a quirk of the character, but because it's a very Japanese reference, I missed it as being that)

Misoji (Okay, this one is in reference to a font, so it's a name, but again, I got no significance from it, despite there seeming to be some joke in the scene)

mizutaki (this may have been explained in a previous episode, though my mind isn't sharp enough to remember what food it actually is)

shirataki (again, maybe mentioned in previous episode, but who knows)


And I noticed that there was a "Sa..." in the script as well. I know that if I wasn't a seasoned anime watcher, then I would have been like "Sa? Wtf is sa?"
Now I feel I'm on the hot seat.

In one episode that's been released recently which I translated had all those untranslated words except for "Sa..." I made very conscious choices to leave them untranslated, not just from laziness. And as of now, we try not to include any notes if at all possible - it's a stylistic choice we've taken.

-niichama and -bocchama --- I realize that those are unheard name suffixes. But those can be just taken as part of the names. They are close to being honorifics. But they can also be taken as just a part nick name. People who's come familiar with Japanese honorific style can start relating words like "niichama" with some other honorifics they've heard before, and realize that it's a combination between "niisan" and "chan." "Niisan" is easy to translate usually - it means brother. If I actually try to translate the phrase based on that fact, it would come out as "Brother Shin," which I have more problem with the translated version, because all of sudden it starts sounding like Baptist (and some other Christian denominations) brotherhood in English context. I doubt googling "niichama" would result in good results, but I bet "niisan/niisama" and "chan" would. So leaving "niichama" untranslated is a very liberal choice I took. But I swear to you, I wasn't just lazy.

misoji --- It's a font that was created in earlier episode by Nodame. If you missed that part, too bad. There's nothing significant about the name itself -- no hidden meaning like Comic Sans MS.

mizutaki and shirataki --- yes, those are food. And those are rather easy to find what they are if the viewers get curious and decide to use Google. And for the phrase with mizutaki, someone else replies in the next line with the phrase "hot pot," so the clue is already given what it's all about.

When I leave words untranslated, I usually try to do something I did with the word mizutaki - leave clues in translations so it wouldn't need a separate note.

When I read manga these days, I see notes all over between boxes. I do realize that's one style. But when I watch foreign films with subtitles, I really don't remember any instances where I've seen any translation notes. That's a style of its own too. And that's the style I want to achieve.


But then again, if I have to explain myself in such a length, I'm far from achieving my goal of noteless translation style.
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Old 2007-05-18, 10:30   Link #63
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
Now I feel I'm on the hot seat.

In one episode that's been released recently which I translated had all those untranslated words except for "Sa..." I made very conscious choices to leave them untranslated, not just from laziness. And as of now, we try not to include any notes if at all possible - it's a stylistic choice we've taken.


I realised it was a stylistic choice (I wouldn't dare accuse such a hard-working translator and group of being lazy), I merely used it as an example. It was the last episode I watched before posting that, so it was pretty much the first one that came to hand.

I know that many groups do adopt the style of not using TL Notes for their releases (Eclipse being another notable group, though Hayate has almost forced their hand on that one by being as culturally referential as it is) and I'm not saying that it's the wrong thing to do -- merely that sometimes it gets a bit difficult to decipher some of the Japanese that's been left in. Of course, there are always external resources like wikipedia if the viewer really wants to know, so how big an issue it is, becomes one for the translator/editor of the individual releases to decide.

I don't think, however, that we can compare fansub techniques to the way that commercial movie subs are done, because I have to say that I can't actually recall a single Japanese film I've seen that has used honorifics in a commercial movie subtitle. Either the translators try to translate them as best they can, or they allow the extra meanings to be lost.

I hear what you're saying on the manga TL notes though: those can get a tedious at times... though I've learnt a lot of interesting Japanese traditions from manga scanlations, so in a sense, it's a double-edged sword


EDIT: Oh and as for "sa", I'm not entirely sure if it was in the Nodame sub or not. I only remember seeing it that day (and I thought Nodame was the only thing I watched, but perhaps not...), so apologies if I've accused you of something you didn't do.
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Old 2007-05-18, 18:53   Link #64
Yaoi_Pocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Sa? Untranslated? That's just lame. It's easily and accurately translated by something like "Dunno..." or "who knows?" or "beats me..."

Not translating sa is more a sign of a poor translator than an editing choice. I see no reason for leaving it untranslated other than ignorance of its meaning.
Ooh, recursive

As for how We Suck handles titles and Japanese honorifics - the No. 1 guideline that we follow is: location, location, location.

We believe that an anime is in Japanese because:
  1. It is set in Japan and is about Japanese people, or set outside Japan but with the setting dominated by Japanese people. Alternatively, the story takes place in a fantasy alternate-universe where the environment or people is supposed to resemble Japan.
  2. It is set in a non-Japanese country and it is predominated by non-Japanese people. Alternatively, it is set in a fantasy setting which is an explicit simulation of a country outside Japan, and features characters that are explicitly not Japanese. (However, it is in Japanese because that is the language spoken by its viewers.)
  3. It is set in a 100% fantasy setting, where it's not explicitly obvious what real-life country is being simulated.

In Case A, it would make sense to leave in the honorifics, as well as keep certain terms and cultural references untranslated (but explained via translation note). On the other hand, in Case B, the sensible thing to do would be to translate the honorifics and translate any terms originally left in Japanese - because the anime is supposed to simulate non-Japanese culture (as opposed to Japanese culture) to begin with. To hear things like "Integral-sama" in Hellsing or "Emily-chan" in Emily of New Moon would be rather jarring, to say the least. As for Case C, we evaluate on a case-by-case basis.

The majority of the projects that we've worked on fall under Case A. (This includes Rocket Girls, because while the anime itself takes place in a space base in Solomon Islands, said space base is occupied by Japanese people.) The only two projects we've done which fall under Case B is Survive (for which I wasn't part of the group) and Saiunkoku. In the case of Saiunkoku, while we've taken some flak for translating all titles and honorifics in the series, we believe that it's the right path to follow because Saiunkoku is supposed to be set in a fantasy world in the style of ancient China - if it was set in a fantasy world in the style of Japan circa the Heian-kyo era, our decision on titles and honorifics would be much different.

As for the original topic: ○○-tachi can easily be rendered as any of:
  • ○○-and the others
  • ○○-and company
  • ○○-et al.
  • ○○-and his/her friends, or even
  • ○○-and (insert names of whichever other specific people are being referred to).

But I suppose there could be worse examples... it could have been "Everything is according to keikaku" for 計画通り, with a translation note explaining what keikaku means. (For the record, keikaku (計画) is Japanese for "plan").

Last edited by Yaoi_Pocky; 2007-05-18 at 19:00. Reason: disjarring is not a word :P also added kanji for keikaku
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Old 2007-05-19, 11:01   Link #65
Bot1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
I know that many groups do adopt the style of not using TL Notes for their releases (Eclipse being another notable group, though Hayate has almost forced their hand on that one by being as culturally referential as it is) and I'm not saying that it's the wrong thing to do -- merely that sometimes it gets a bit difficult to decipher some of the Japanese that's been left in. Of course, there are always external resources like wikipedia if the viewer really wants to know, so how big an issue it is, becomes one for the translator/editor of the individual releases to decide.
uuum... eclipse uses tl notes -.-
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Old 2007-05-19, 12:16   Link #66
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i am against translation notes unless its something very important. one or two small tag lines within the video is fine. having a pdf accompany every file you release is not fine. you do not need to list the 26 types of snackfoods they sell at the aki-matsuri that was shown in the episode. if people want to learn more, they can always ask and lots of people would be glad to teach them more. giving a small cultural tid-bit lesson is usually appreciated, just dont write a thesis.
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Old 2007-05-19, 17:09   Link #67
False Dawn
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Originally Posted by Bot1 View Post
uuum... eclipse uses tl notes -.-

Oh? Not from what I've seen (other than Hayate). I always thought that they only did tl notes if it was important to the narrative (such as references to other anime series, etc), rather than explaining cultural differences.
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Old 2007-05-19, 17:53   Link #68
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i know that they atleast used it in another anime that also happened to be about fighting servants >_>
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Old 2007-06-27, 17:20   Link #69
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anyone have an idea how to translate ~de arimasu into a nice catch phrase? w
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Old 2007-06-27, 18:05   Link #70
False Dawn
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Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
anyone have an idea how to translate ~de arimasu into a nice catch phrase? w

Unpossible. It's not a real word or nuffin'.


EDIT: though "de" means "of" in French. Hope that helps ^_^
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Old 2007-06-27, 22:55   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
Unpossible. It's not a real word or nuffin'.


EDIT: though "de" means "of" in French. Hope that helps ^_^
... I get the distinct impression that you have no idea what you're talking about.


As for the actual question:
Depends. Who's using, with whom do they use it, example sentence... Japanese is too dependent on context to give a good translation with so little to go on.
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Old 2007-06-27, 23:04   Link #72
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De arimasu is something stupid Keroro says that roughly means "It is."
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Old 2007-06-28, 01:02   Link #73
Potatochobit
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yes, but thats too literal.

I set my own precedents

I will revolutionize the english language and one day cuteness will reign supreme.

right now I left it as, you have. but I want to change that soon.
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Old 2007-06-28, 02:28   Link #74
False Dawn
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Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
... I get the distinct impression that you have no idea what you're talking about.

On the contrary. When ~de arimasu came up in Shana, I conversed with some translators on its meaning, and they said there was no real phrase in English for it. I defer to the translators who know more about the language than me

I suppose, if you wanted to, you could translate it as something like "so it is" which would be literal, but would still make no sense


EDIT: *waits for a translator to prove me wrong* >.>
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Old 2007-06-28, 02:35   Link #75
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So it is .... or "So it goes...." to borrow a Vonnegut way of saying things.

I'd probably use "So it goes..." in Frog's case especially since its 'sci-fi' to begin with

In traditional cases, it would just depend on the personality of the character. "Its just the way it is..." .... but I'm assuming its being used fatalistically as I'm unfamiliar with Frog's personality.
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Old 2007-06-28, 02:36   Link #76
FatPianoBoy
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Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post



On the contrary. When ~de arimasu came up in Shana, I conversed with some translators on its meaning, and they said there was no real phrase in English for it. I defer to the translators who know more about the language than me

I suppose, if you wanted to, you could translate it as something like "so it is" which would be literal, but would still make no sense


EDIT: *waits for a translator to prove me wrong* >.>
*Is a translator*

Ah, I see. The random French bit threw me. Sorry for assuming you were an idiot; I've had a long day

It's not that there's no English equivalent, it's that there's no good equivalent.
Breakdown: 'De' is like 'by means of' or 'with' (hashi de taberu = eat with chopsticks), and 'arimasu' is 'to exist' for inanimate objects. Something along the lines of "so it is" might work if done right (that car is blue, it is), as 'de arimasu' is somewhat unnecessary itself, but the real aim of 'de arimasu' is politeness, so... not so much.
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Old 2007-06-28, 02:38   Link #77
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Ah, yes, I've thought so much about the honorific/suffix issue, both while working on fansubbing projects and while watching releases. As a translator and an editor, I've had my share of debates.

The primary factor for choosing to leave the honorifics and suffixes is the translating philosophy of the group. My philosophy is translation of core meaning in a way that is localized in the target language, so that it's actually translation and not replacing words and phrases (be aware that I do respect the latter method, as it, likewise, requires a huge amount of effort and dedication to the work).

Therefore, I expect that the audience is quite familiar at the target language and its culture. However, I do not expect that the audience is at all familiar with the original language. And because it's really complete, total translation that I aim for, I remove everything that doesn't exist in the target language, relying primarily on good editing (word choice, for example) and the voice actor's talents and the development of the character throughout the story. Imagine the same character relationships in a natively English production; Japanese honorifics aren't necessary to convey all the elements, so it must be doable for translations. What if the Japanese were to be translated into Chinese? There are no characters for "-san" or "-sama", yet the translation is pretty successful.

It's good to note that I don't rigidly use "Mr." or "Ms." for every single "-san". I sometimes choose to pretend that it's not there. And it's not much of a problem, either, since how the words are spoken can easily show the respect that is intended, or be concluded from outward appearances and story background.

Putting things in context, now, "-tachi" can be inferred if the character is speaking to multiple people, which is shown through the video or good editing or both. Remember that subtitles go hand-in-hand with the audio and the video. Alone, they may not convey everything, but together, a lot can be expressed.

I'm not going to "push" for anything on this subject, as I prefer that people do what they're comfortable doing in fansubbing—within reasonable limits, of course.
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Old 2007-06-28, 04:50   Link #78
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Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
anyone have an idea how to translate ~de arimasu into a nice catch phrase? w
Isn't it just another positive auxiliary word like da/de aru/desu/de gozaru/de gozaimasu, etc?!
So, I think you can translate it just like you translate sentence with desu.
koko wa Asuki dearimasu. (This is Asuki.)
Sono meido no namae wa wilhelmina de arimasuka??
(Is that maid's name Wilhelmina??)
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Old 2007-06-28, 07:13   Link #79
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Quote:
anyone have an idea how to translate ~de arimasu into a nice catch phrase? w
It's virtually impossible to turn it into a "catch phrase". You'd need to give the character a high degree of politeness, instead.
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Old 2007-06-28, 08:57   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
yes, but thats too literal.

I set my own precedents

I will revolutionize the english language and one day cuteness will reign supreme.

right now I left it as, you have. but I want to change that soon.
Just think about it. How big is the English language n vocabulary, compared to the Japanese?

There's more prefixiation in the Japanese, than in the English or any none-Asian language that I know of.

There's nothing like direct translation, and there probably never will be. Maybe in 10k years or so... If you know how all languages evolved in Europe and what other tribes "our" languages originated from. And this IS really complexed.

Taking the English for example, and trying to come up with new words and meanings, and then trying to translate or give them other names is just plain stupid.
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