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Old 2007-06-28, 09:06   Link #81
Obi-Wan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
either way is fine.

anime fans are expected to know basic japanese word terms like hello, good, yes, and -tachi.
And here is exactly why this is a bad idea. Any time a fansub team begins expecting their viewers to see things their way is just opening the door for the team to get criticized to hell and back.

The goal of fansubbing is not to teach people Japanese, it is to present anime so that the target audience, in this case, English-speaking people, can best understand. The moment you start saying people should be "expected" to understand this or that Japanese word, you're making a huge fool of yourself.

I think anime is a great learning aid for people who are currently learning Japanese, at least for being able to understand words and phrases that they have been taught, and it's a good way to keep your Japanese skills up to par during summer break when you don't have class, but anime is in no way a vehicle by which to learn the Japanese language. And that's why I have such a big problem with translators trying to do things like this.
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Old 2007-06-28, 09:10   Link #82
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potatochobit View Post
I will revolutionize the english language.

Just noticed this...

Who says it needs revolutionising?
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Old 2007-06-28, 09:17   Link #83
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I think he was joking...
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Old 2007-06-28, 10:59   Link #84
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I think this was somehow not mentioned yet, but 'de arimasu' is quite simply another (more formal) form of 'desu' and neither adds nor subtracts meaning in most cases, at least when it's used as a superflous "moe phrase". Tokyopop managed to do rather well in their Rozen Maiden translation, putting in "Yes." for Suiseiseki's superflous desu's.
In the case of 'de arimasu' it shows a somewhat formal and pompous person, so "just" think of a word/phrase that can be added to any sentence to convey that, without otherwise adding or removing meaning from it.

The "So it is/goes" suggested by False Dawn and Vexx is quite good I'd say. I can't think of anything better myself
(Anything but leaving it untranslated/romaji in the subtitles!)
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Old 2007-06-28, 11:32   Link #85
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Quote:
I think this was somehow not mentioned yet, but 'de arimasu' is quite simply another (more formal) form of 'desu'
In fact, "desu" is the shortened, colloquial form of "de arimasu" (try saying "de arimasu" out loud really fast, you'll see you get something that sounds a lot like "desu").
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Old 2007-06-29, 16:28   Link #86
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As a fellow translator, why care? Translate the way you want to. Both -tachi and "the others" will get the message across.

One problem you'll have using -tachi though, is that a new anime fan might not get it. Other than that, they should be happy that they have subbed anime. Let editors fight over this one.
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Old 2007-06-29, 17:30   Link #87
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although for the most part you are right, shounen, I dsagree with you as making it set in stone.

take prince of tennis for example.

this is a great tennis show. until you add english language to it?

why is that? because of the japanese names.

here is a SOLID example where the character names should have been localized. I'm sure it would have been a much bigger hit, if so.

the voice actors can barely say echizen and kunimitsu. by not localizing this show it lost alot of its appeal to the general public, unlike pokemon, which can be watched by anyone.

latin did not 'evolve' in europe. at least not the europe you're talking about

and just in case you were wondering the base english vocabulary is probably three times as big as the japanese language.

now about desu, look at how tokyopop translated Suiseiseki?

alot of poeple were mad, but I found it decent.
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Old 2007-06-29, 17:38   Link #88
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So wait, wait - the popularity of a show in America depends on whether the characters have American names or not? o.O
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Old 2007-06-29, 17:45   Link #89
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No, it is theme, situation, and target audience specific.

just my own rule of thumb.
sports themes SHOULD be localized.
unless its slam dunk

dating/school life should NOT.

lets look at prince of tennis again.

at what time did the show air on TV?

who is the target audience?

what age group might be interested in this?

Alot of people who watch adult swim on cartoon network like anime, but they are not particularly interested in learning japanese.

casual viewers will watch anime, however, from my experience, complicated japanese names are the biggest draw back preventing them from becoming fans.

if you look back to the 80's and 90's all the shows had the japanese character names localized. now the trend has since shifted to trying to releasing something faitfhul to the original japanese production, however, there are still exceptions when a show would do better localized.

edit:
I'm not sure if u were old enough to watch robotech on TV when it first aired, but did you know their names were not Rick and Lisa?
that is because it was localized. and it was a good idea that worked.

also did you know optimus prime toy was actually known as convoy in japan, and still is?
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Last edited by Potatochobit; 2007-06-29 at 18:07.
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Old 2007-06-29, 19:32   Link #90
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I wonder whether that has any bearing on fansubs though - are you suggesting that fansub groups should start changing names to more "localized" names?

Having said that, I remember a.f.k. translating a pun in a more localized way (using common names) in Kanon 2006 rather than tl noting it like Eclipse did. There are arguments for both sides, I'd imagine, though I have to admit, that I got the joke a lot easier with a.f.k.'s more liberal use of names.

Beyond that though, I don't really think localization has much of a position within fansub releases.
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Old 2007-08-13, 08:02   Link #91
tun
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What's the reason for using ha instead of wa in karaoke?

I never understood why any groups would put ha instead of wa when they are doing romaji in the karaoke. Isn't the whole point of the romaji so that non-Japanese speakers can sing along? When the singer clearly says wa, why is ha put there?

save the lectures about how wa and ha have the same character, i'm asking specifically about the karaoke.
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Old 2007-08-13, 08:18   Link #92
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I second that question.

Also let me add some more questions to it:

Why 'wo' and not 'o' ? Stick to one romanisation system please. (Clean Hepburn, Kunreishiki or the all too common wapuro-Hepburn would mean 'wa', 'e', 'o'. Nihonshiki means 'ha', 'he', 'wo'.)
Again I see 'jya', 'jyo, etc. way too often. Pick one of 'zya' or 'ja', two different romanisation systems, they can't mix like that. (Hepburn and variations is 'ja', 'ju', 'jo', Nihonshiki and Kunreishiki is 'zya', 'zyu', 'zyo'.)

On the timing, if the lyrics say eg. 'mou' and they're sung with one long, unbroken 'o' sound, why then split it as 'mo-u'? It looks horrible with some effects. Please be considerate where putting syllable splits so it also looks good on the effect when you listen to the song.
Finally, something that's on the line of the previous, but probably even more of personal preference: eg. 'kitto', if you can't split it like 'ki-t-to' (because the little-tsu isn't clearly distinct) can I ask people to split it like 'kit-to' instead? Because that's the actual syllables the mora generate. (And single 'n' doesn't always need its own timed syllable, it all comes down to what sounds+looks best in each specific case.)
Please remember that just because in most cases a single kana = a single syllable it's not the case for everything
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Last edited by jfs; 2007-08-13 at 08:23. Reason: Clarification of romanisation systems
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Old 2007-08-13, 09:29   Link #93
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I got in habit of using wo instead of o for を because of how B'z pronounced を distinctly like wo.

I use mostly what I believe is Hepburn variant, with that exception. I kind of knew I'm doing it wrong, but I really never cared to fix it myself. I really should fix it, since I do share the peeve about seeing spelling like jya.

As for little-tsu timing I do have a weak counter-argument. I think there are many occasions where the composers places a rhythmic/tonal structure to punctuate the little-tsu. Also, I sometimes sense the singer making a very rhythmic staccato of the note that combine a syllable with little-tsu. In those cases, I time the little-tsu separately. There are many times I group the little-tsu with the syllables too, though. It's actually pretty common for me to use both style of little-tsu timing within a song.

Also, I noticed something about grouping little-tsu with a syllable. jfs grouped it as kit-to in the example. I normally would put it as ki-tto for romaji, but use きっ-と in hiragana.
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Old 2007-08-13, 10:58   Link #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
Also, I noticed something about grouping little-tsu with a syllable. jfs grouped it as kit-to in the example. I normally would put it as ki-tto for romaji, but use きっ-と in hiragana.
I group them as ki-tto (if the -t- isn't noticable in singing) because we do not pronounce the [kit] sound in full. We hold the [t] note and wait for the -to to come. I split the kana like き-っと just to keep it equal to the romaji. I think romaji should have a little advantage in karaoke anyway, but I understand why きっ-と would be more correct. Maybe I should start doing kana that way.

『Always adjust the romaji timing to what you hear, not what the text indicates』 would be my advice.

BTW, I thought the wa-puro-hepburn was ha, he, wo (not wa, e, o) because of the way we input it with our IME.
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Old 2007-08-13, 11:10   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
BTW, I thought the wa-puro-hepburn was ha, he, wo (not wa, e, o) because of the way we input it with our IME.
Yes, to type out the kana for those particles, you would use ha/he/wo spelling. But in Romaji context, those spellings shouldn't be used.
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Old 2007-08-13, 20:26   Link #96
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I personally think that "Hepburn v3" is the best romanization system to use. There are two problems with using macrons for karaoke romanization: First, not all fonts support them, and second, you can't separate the syllables like that. Hepburn v3 solves that problem by duplicating vowels for long syllables, e.g. "shoonen", "Tookyoo", "Oosaka" etc.

I do, however, preffer "wo" over "o", for the simple fact that, as Sylf mentioned, they are pronounced differently (although most english speakers won't be able to tell difference, since their "o" is already quite different from the japanese one - I suspect that this might apply to other germanic languages as well).

In the end, I don't think that there is any particular reason to stick to any romanization system - whatever works best is the best.

As for syllable splitting, I have a long history of disagreeing with jfs on that.
I think that, except for the very rare cases in which the long sound is completely destroyed, it SHOULD be timed separately. Also the little-tsu. A good song to hear the long sounds and little-tsu pronounced independently is "Tenshi no Yubikiri", the opening for Kareshi Kanojo no Jijou. Pay attention at "Masshiro" (for little tsu), "Tenshi" (for syllabic n) and "Yoo" (for long vowel) at the start of the song.

For reference (first two lines aren't in the TV size):

YOU MAY DREAM oikakete sunao na kono kimochi
tsutaeraruta nara DREAMS COME TRUE
YOU MAY DREAM masshiro na koi wa tsubasa ni naru
tenshi no yubikiri kanau you ni


EDIT:
I just noticed that the song's following verse has a good example of "wo" being pronounced differently from "o":

me no mae wo sugiru yokogao tokimeki ga odori hajimeru


EDIT2:
For the lazy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25H--2ZPpOA
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Last edited by ArchMageZeratuL; 2007-08-13 at 20:54.
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Old 2007-08-13, 23:11   Link #97
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Quote:
Hepburn v3 solves that problem by duplicating vowels for long syllables, e.g. "shoonen", "Tookyoo", "Oosaka" etc.
But most English-native people would automatically expect to pronounce that as /'shu:nen/, /'tu:kyu:/, /u:sɑˈkɑ/, and even if they are used to that spelling, I'm fairly sure the English impulse to pronounce those "oo" as /u:/, instead of the long oh sound, is quite stronger. I wouldn't know much, since I'm not English native myself (and according to my language, that notation makes quite a lot of sense)... however, whenever I see "Tookyoo" I get the distinct impression I should pronounce /u:/ instead of long oh.

I feel "ō" is a far better choice.

(BTW, in the case of "Oosaka", it's technically correct to write the Hepburn v3 romanization, since 大阪 = おおさか).
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Old 2007-08-14, 10:49   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
But most English-native people would automatically expect to pronounce that as /'shu:nen/, /'tu:kyu:/, /u:sɑˈkɑ/, and even if they are used to that spelling, I'm fairly sure the English impulse to pronounce those "oo" as /u:/, instead of the long oh sound, is quite stronger. I wouldn't know much, since I'm not English native myself (and according to my language, that notation makes quite a lot of sense)... however, whenever I see "Tookyoo" I get the distinct impression I should pronounce /u:/ instead of long oh.
To the same degree that english speakers will mispronounce "shine!" (die!) as the english word "shine". For that matter, english speakers not used to roomaji will mispronounce just about everything, and even those trained in japanese will still have a very hard time pronouncing the vowel "o" correctly (or even realizing that they aren't already doing so). So I think that this point isn't particularly relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I feel "ō" is a far better choice.
Like I've said, that has its own set of problems when it comes to karaoke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
(BTW, in the case of "Oosaka", it's technically correct to write the Hepburn v3 romanization, since 大阪 = おおさか).
It's technically correct to write "Tookyoo" too. Just different romanization systems. Of course, "Ousaka" isn't right in ANY romanization system, but, then again, "Toukyou" isn't right in any official romanization system, either.
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Old 2007-08-14, 21:47   Link #99
tun
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I guess no one answered my original question.
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Old 2007-08-14, 21:53   Link #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tun View Post
I never understood why any groups would put ha instead of wa when they are doing romaji in the karaoke. Isn't the whole point of the romaji so that non-Japanese speakers can sing along? When the singer clearly says wa, why is ha put there?

save the lectures about how wa and ha have the same character, i'm asking specifically about the karaoke.
I'd say its a basic beginner's error. Romaji translations by people who actually get paid to do such things put 'wa' to replace the '’’ character when used as the subject particle. I can't think of or find any justifiable reason for using 'ha' in that way.

You just had the poor fortune of asking the question in the middle of a Hepburn pillow fight
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