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Old 2007-05-21, 20:59   Link #21
Kurz
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However he never stated what kind of software he was talking about.
Single threaded, Multithreaded, 64 bit, 32bit.

Sorry however if you cant state what you mean in words its better not to take a hard left or right wing. Coming from my point of view its this, you can spread a lot of false information and it could actually cause someone to make the wrong choice when it comes to deciding what hardware to get. I've been mislead by Best Buy employees when I was younger and I hate to have that happen again to someone online.


Core2Duo is faster in 32Bit.
Two Cores is amazing when you multitask.
64bit is not optimized yet because there is still 32bit code.

Also Athlon64s are a nice and cheap alternative.
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Old 2007-05-22, 01:39   Link #22
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yes, and you just proved what you know (or don't know) as the case may be. Ledgem basically said what needed to be said in response.

It depends on the code and how it utilizes the architecture: stop making absolute statements and by all means keep telling me I don't know what I'm talking about -- the engineers at the office get a kick out of those kinds of posts... ... ...

However, I'll agree that an Athlon64 is an excellent alternative for the budget minded.
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Old 2007-05-22, 02:35   Link #23
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurz View Post
However he never stated what kind of software he was talking about.
Single threaded, Multithreaded, 64 bit, 32bit.

Sorry however if you cant state what you mean in words its better not to take a hard left or right wing. Coming from my point of view its this, you can spread a lot of false information and it could actually cause someone to make the wrong choice when it comes to deciding what hardware to get. I've been mislead by Best Buy employees when I was younger and I hate to have that happen again to someone online.
Well, I think we're all on the same side in this forum: we want the truth to be known, and nobody is trying to sell anyone on anything except for a good user experience and a system that is optimized for their needs and their budget.

Vexx was doing his part to dispell what you're about to witness as the next big marketing thing: to say that cores alone don't mean a thing for performance. You can disagree with it if you want, but I agree with him 100% and will argue against you unless you can prove otherwise. Are two cores better than a single core? Maybe - it depends on your applications. Don't just knee-jerk "yes" to that, because before you know it, you'll be buying into the belief that, if two cores are better than one, then OF COURSE four cores are better than two! Amirite?

Here we have a user asking about Pentium 4 and Celeron, and the discussion moved to say that the differences between the two depend and, as always, the better processor can only be determined by knowing what you want to do with it. On the consumer scale, better doesn't just mean performance, it also means budget. And you sure as hell won't hear the Best Buy guys talking like this, because when we say budget we mean spending significantly less than anything you'll find on the front shelves, even if it's lower-end front shelf stuff. We're looking out for this guy's best interests as best we can.

I apologize if I snapped at you in my previous post, but I took issue with the way you addressed Vexx. We all come here to volunteer our time to educate those who have problems or questions. Some of us may not know what we're talking about, but please try to keep stating it directly as a last resort - discredit false statements by proving them wrong, rather than trying to discredit the poster.
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Old 2007-05-22, 08:12   Link #24
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The way it works is this I haven't read, the whole thread.
A Celeron is marketing concept, as are centrino and ViiV.

A celeron essentially is marketed as the budget line of processors. Manufacturers know that celeron actually is just intels over stock. Essentially Celeron is the excess of the last generation or a generation before of what ever processor, they disable the cache, and lower the bus speed. Basically a celeron is made from another processor.

Todays Celerons are Pentium 4s Presscotts with part of the cache disabled (its still there) and a lower bus speed (they set it lower). 533mhz and 1mb or 512kb (unsure) and 64bit. This puts them on speed with the Pentium 4s from the earlier part of 2003.

Keep in mind the term pentium 4 is meaning less, its the processor core that distinguishes how fast a processor is with in the same family, and it is the architecture that determines the family of processors. All Pentium 4s and D's are a net burst architecture processor, celeron 1.4ghz are above are all net burst.

As far as what are you doing? If your using this for an internet pc, and for just minor multimedia theres no point in you worrying about how fast your processor is. Anything you can buy new today is fast enough for this stuff. If your an heavy heavy gamer there might be some reason to worry, but really the graphics card makes the bigger difference.



So what does all that mean in engrish. A celeron above 1.4ghz is just a slower version of the pentium 4. Thats about the speed of some of the older pentium 4.
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Old 2007-05-22, 09:59   Link #25
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Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
If your an heavy heavy gamer there might be some reason to worry, but really the graphics card makes the bigger difference.
Now now, there are plenty of games today that can be CPU limited—if your CPU isn't fast enough to supply your OMGWTFBBQ graphics card with the information it needs, you'll see reduced performance. The general wisdom is that yes, a graphics card is probably MORE important than the CPU for a lot of today's games, but if you want to run them well (with advanced AI, physics, and other tasks that are CPU-dependent) you still need a pretty beefy processor to avoid bottlenecks.
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Old 2007-05-22, 10:33   Link #26
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If your heart's set on one of those two, Pentium 4. Of course, at this day and age, don't be surprised if whichever computer you choose lags far behind compared to most other computers.

In my opinion, why settle for less? Intel Core 2 Duo Extreme seems to be the new wave of the future.
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Old 2007-05-22, 11:12   Link #27
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Latest prices from my parts supplier (in USD):

Athlon 64 3500+ 2.2GHz 512k 939pin RevE Retail $65
Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8GHz 2M 800M 775 Retail $131
Core 2 Duo E6700 2.6GHz 4M 1066M 775 Retail $352
Core 2 Duo X6800 Extreme Edition 2.93GHz 4M 1066M 775 Retail $1079
Celeron 352 3.2GHz 512K 533M 775 OEM $53
Pentium 4 524 3.06 1MB 533M EM64T LGA775 OEM $76

That's why there's discussion --- your total budget dictates how you're going to spend on each component. If you save some dollars on a cpu that you can apply to a video card, that might be money well spent if it means the difference between a 128mb video card and a 512mb video card as an example.

Looking at the pricing (at the moment), I might go with an Athlon64 rather than a P4 *or* a low-end core duo and apply all those bucks to a faster video card. In about year or two, I'd probably suggest a core duo if certain desirable games actually make use of the core2 duo architecture.

If you're building your own box and are a hobbyist, you're always upgrading some component every year or so anyway, eh?
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Old 2007-05-22, 12:12   Link #28
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Reading these prices makes me think I should upgrade my Celeron to that P4. The specs for my Dell Dimension 2400 says it supports either Celerons or P4s, with the latter supported up to 3.06 GHz and 533 MHz FSB, exactly like the one you list. Do these chips have the same socket so it would be simply a matter of pulling the Celeron and inserting the P4? $76 sounds like it's worth it to me.

BTW, I've never upgraded a microprocessor in my life, though I've replaced nearly every other component you can think of (except a motherboard).
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Old 2007-05-22, 12:30   Link #29
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Quote:
BTW, I've never upgraded a microprocessor in my life, though I've replaced nearly every other component you can think of (except a motherboard).
Little offtopicness here, but placing/replacing a motherboard scares me to death. I always let my dad handle it.
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Old 2007-05-22, 12:33   Link #30
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yeah, I've got a Core 2 Duo (but I'm a gamer/nerd who feels compelled to have a super 1337 computer...don't ask why, haha)

Anyways, I'd suggest getting a Pentium D, Core 2 Duo or AMD X2 series processor. Just for reference...Core 2 Duo > AMD X2 > Pentium D >> Pentium 4 >>>>>>(infinitely...lol)>>>>>>> Celeron.

If you go for a Core 2 Duo get one of the cheapest. If you go for an AMD, then get something like the X2 3800 or X2 3600. The difference in Pentium D chips wouldn't make a big difference over the price/value of them for the faster ones so just get what you can afford if you go that route.

I, personally, would say get a cheap Core 2 Duo if you can or an AMD X2 3600 or 3800 and that'll be great.

Hope it works out well for you

EDIT: If you can just upgrade the processor alone, you might be able to get a Pentium D if the socket is right, but for the others...you'll most likely need to get a new motherboard as well, which might be a pain to install if you don't know what you're doing.
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Old 2007-05-22, 12:39   Link #31
Vexx
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You will almost certainly find there's probably pin count differences (I can't remember off the top of my head). Changing a CPU is usually a good time to change a mobo ... they usually run $60-$100 bucks dependin on how much froufrou you want onboard. Getting one with both IDE and SATA connectors and a PCI/Express is probably a Good Idea. Unfortunately, its tough to find ones that still have AGP connectors so its possible you'd be looking at a new video card as well. Recent AGP mobos do exist though.

Motherboards are really not that hard to change out if you're just careful with the screwdriver and your case is "access-friendly" (some cases are hell to work with and some leave gaping slices in your hands if you're not careful). I usually advise removing the powersupply to make things easier to reach.
Be sure and be naked and ground yourself out at all times (according to Largo anyway ). This especially helps if you're a pretty girl.

Expect your MS operating system to whine its being installed on a new computer but so far I've never had a -re-activation- fail with XP (so far).
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Old 2007-05-22, 12:41   Link #32
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Do these chips have the same socket so it would be simply a matter of pulling the Celeron and inserting the P4?
Well that P4 the uses the 775 socket so just make sure that you motherboard uses that as well. Celerons and P4 have gone through a couple of socket changes without changing the brand name so make sure you have the right one. If the Dell says it supports P4 then it should be simply a matter of pulling out the Celeron and putting in the P4 and applying the thermal paste. Although just to be sure verify that the chipset supports that P4 as well.
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Old 2007-05-22, 13:26   Link #33
Vexx
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Aye.. I got caught once by a mobo that had the Northwood set and the Pentium cpu (though it had the same pin count and fit perfectly) would not work with it at all... it took a couple of trips to the supplier to ascertain that the particular combination was incompatible.
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Old 2007-05-22, 15:39   Link #34
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Yeah, price is always a problem. I thought the Extreme was a little less than $1,000. newegg.com price anyways. Still expensive, though.

As for the socket type, always make sure you look for the right socket type. What I normally do is find the make and model of the motherboard and look up its stats. That way, I know exactly what socket the motherboard has for the CPU. After that, it's just a matter of choosing between the CPUs with matching sockets.
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Old 2007-05-22, 18:22   Link #35
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>w now, there are plenty of games today that can be CPU limited—if your CPU isn't fast enough to supply your OMGWTFBBQ graphics card with the information it needs, you'll see reduced performance. The general wisdom is that yes, a graphics card is probably MORE important than the CPU for a lot of today's games, but if you want to run them well (with advanced AI, physics, and other tasks that are CPU-dependent) you still need a pretty beefy processor to avoid bottlenecks.

This is true enough. And a celeron 1400mhz would be CPU limited. But for majority of games a pentium 4 3000mhz with a pretty fast graphics card like the 7800GT... is going to be able to run on casual settings. However, If your looking to make everything look nice and pretty sure you can do better.


>Athlon 64 3500+ 2.2GHz 512k 939pin RevE Retail $65
Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8GHz 2M 800M 775 Retail $131
Core 2 Duo E6700 2.6GHz 4M 1066M 775 Retail $352
Core 2 Duo X6800 Extreme Edition 2.93GHz 4M 1066M 775 Retail $1079
Celeron 352 3.2GHz 512K 533M 775 OEM $53
Pentium 4 524 3.06 1MB 533M EM64T LGA775 OEM $76

Just wanted to add these twoo

A Core 2 E6320 is around 175$ and that has the same bus and cache as the E6700

A Core 2 E6600 is around 225-240 thats at 2.4ghz
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Old 2007-05-23, 07:00   Link #36
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For the curious, my Celeron is in the 478-pin socket ("Northwood") and can't support more than 512 KB of cache. There are replacement P4's in this form factor, but beyond 2.8 GHz they get crazily expensive. There is a 3.06 GHz version, but it costs nearly $300 from OEM suppliers; the 2.8 GHz version costs more like $75. The particular combination of the 3 GHz clock, but only a 533 MHz bus, isn't widely available and so commands a premium price. I'm sure I'd see some improvement in performance by going with the 2.8 P4, compared to my 2.6 Celeron, but it looks like buying a new computer with some contemporary processor may make more sense.
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Old 2007-05-23, 14:10   Link #37
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I want to buy a cpu too but I wait until P35 chipset and E6750 comes out.
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Old 2007-05-23, 19:58   Link #38
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>There are replacement P4's in this form factor, but beyond 2.8 GHz they get crazily expensive. There is a 3.06 GHz version, but it costs nearly $300 from OEM suppliers

any thing northwood now is excess stock. Also all north woods are 512KB Cache. The difference between the Celeron and the Pentium 4 if the cache is 512kb will be bus speed. if your celeron is 400mhz its the Samethings as a Pentium 4A, if its 533mhz its Pentium 4b, there is no Pentium 4C designation.

Why is the cost of 3.06ghz or more so much? they've run out of excess stock.

really though within a family of processors theres little point of upgrading.

Celeron has a bad stigma just because its budget, chip. Really whats important is core. At this point buying a Pentium 4 or a Celeron is equally bad or good an investment. To get a real upgrade you'd probably should look at Core 2.
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Old 2007-05-24, 01:00   Link #39
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Originally Posted by ashesatdusk View Post
Celeron has a bad stigma just because its budget, chip. Really whats important is core. At this point buying a Pentium 4 or a Celeron is equally bad or good an investment. To get a real upgrade you'd probably should look at Core 2.
Actually it's already been mentioned, but Celerons are lobotomised due to their cache size.
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Old 2007-05-24, 07:38   Link #40
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>but Celerons are lobotomised due to their cache size.
I already mentioned that in earlier post. My point is it all depends what you use your processor for. If your using it to playback movies, music, internet email, and occasionally goof around on adobe photoshop elements or other basic multimedia programs (Dreamweaver/webdesign apps) a Celeron will cut it. Most average users don't use it for that. For a serious gaming pc, audio production pc, video production pc, render I would never use a celeron... but a person who was doing any of those wouldn't likeley be looking at a celeron in a first place.
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