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Old 2011-07-05, 20:23   Link #20501
kenjiharima
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Theoretically speaking, The lock shouldn't matter anymore since Tsukune's body had been changed to be something that can handle the Youki.
This!

Seeing there is a dramatic change in Tsukune's body and in ch.43 he's using techniques and not just brute strength I guess that's a big leap from the ordinary teenaged kid that went to youkai school.

The main question now is Moka's kicks and vampire powers still more powerful than Tsukune? Seems to me now Tsukune got the edge over Ura Moka.
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Old 2011-07-05, 20:23   Link #20502
Shinso Tsukune
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I agree HayashiTakara, but because of his Shinso blood and being so close to Alucard is extremely dangerous, keeping his Shinso blood sealed is the best thing for everyone right now, but when time comes that the Holy Lock finally breaks, and with a youkai body, he shouldn't need it anymore.

@KenjiHarima

Out of the 4 sisters, Akua is the strongest, though Moka is in a league of her own, but id have to say that, Tsukune is stronger now than Ura-Moka.
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Old 2011-07-05, 20:31   Link #20503
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If they make the wrong turn and end up in Alucard's room then that's the time we see something epic.
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Old 2011-07-05, 20:45   Link #20504
HayashiTakara
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It's probably something like Karua where he's super powerful with the seal on, but taking it off reveals the true strength.
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Old 2011-07-05, 23:29   Link #20505
Chris38
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Well, in my opinion, so far there is nothing suggesting that Tsukune has gained complete control over his berserk side, which is the reason why he still needs to keep wearing the Holy Lock.

After all, Tsukune's latest "out of control" incident has definitively shown some progress in that area, but still signified that Tsukune hasn't gained complete control over that part of his powers, and considering the fact that he's one month training concentrated on youjutsu techniques I don't think that Tsukune has made much progress in that regard.

So, in my opinion, Tsukune still can't control his Shinso powers, and considering the fact that using his Shinso power's would most likely cause Alucard to awaken, it's good that Tsukune is still unable to do that.

Logically thinking, Tsukune (and Moka) will most likely be unable to use their Shinso abilities, while Alucard still remains sealed, and in my opinion, Alucard won't be awakened anytime soon - if I have to speculate then I believe that Alucard is going to be awakened sometime in the middle of Tsukune's 3-rd year at Youkai Academy.

On a different matter, I hope that Inner Moka won't be pushed to the background in the future arcs, after Tsukune has become a competent fighter, since, well despite Tsukune becoming pretty awesome, I still would like to see Inner Moka beating someone from time to time.
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Old 2011-07-05, 23:53   Link #20506
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Well, in my opinion, so far there is nothing suggesting that Tsukune has gained complete control over his berserk side, which is the reason why he still needs to keep wearing the Holy Lock.

After all, Tsukune's latest "out of control" incident has definitively shown some progress in that area, but still signified that Tsukune hasn't gained complete control over that part of his powers, and considering the fact that he's one month training concentrated on youjutsu techniques I don't think that Tsukune has made much progress in that regard.

So, in my opinion, Tsukune still can't control his Shinso powers, and considering the fact that using his Shinso power's would most likely cause Alucard to awaken, it's good that Tsukune is still unable to do that.

Logically thinking, Tsukune (and Moka) will most likely be unable to use their Shinso abilities, while Alucard still remains sealed, and in my opinion, Alucard won't be awakened anytime soon - if I have to speculate then I believe that Alucard is going to be awakened sometime in the middle of Tsukune's 3-rd year at Youkai Academy.

On a different matter, I hope that Inner Moka won't be pushed to the background in the future arcs, after Tsukune has become a competent fighter, since, well despite Tsukune becoming pretty awesome, I still would like to see Inner Moka beating someone from time to time.
Um... no it doesn't the last berserk episode is because there was an unforseen event of the "operation", if it happened after the operation than yes, Tsukune still needs work, but it was during.
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Old 2011-07-06, 00:13   Link #20507
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On that color page... heywaitasec, since when did this turn into a shoujo manga?

As for the rescue of Moka... I can completely see Inner pulling a tsundere, in the most classic/(in)famous of ways:

*As Tsukune is unleashing his youkai abilities, taking out legions of the enemy, Moka is watching, all wide-eyed and almost fan!girling, until he finally manages to get to her and frees her*

Inner :*extreme blushing* W-what took you so long? I-it's not like I asked you to show up and save me, anyways! (she also is looking off to one side, in order to avoid the bishie, lady-killing looks of Tsukune that have caused her panties to get a little stained)
... actually, I might have gone just a bit too far with that last one, but who cares?

As for the Holy lock... sure, that Beast form (as I call it) was unleashed because the ceremony wasn't complete, but... remember, we still haven't seen what the power of Shinso blood unleashed can do. And while Tsukune may have adopted to the regular yoki energy, we don't know if he's capable of controlling the Shinso power (I suspect Fuhai may have upgraded the lock too). So, it's possible that the lock stands between Tsukune and his "Beast" form
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Old 2011-07-06, 00:22   Link #20508
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Um... no it doesn't the last berserk episode is because there was an unforseen event of the "operation", if it happened after the operation than yes, Tsukune still needs work, but it was during.
Except that there hasn't been anything mentioned about the fact that the human modification ritual has actually resolved Tsukune's "berserk side" problem.

I mean Tohou Fuhai saying "Know that you're body has been reborn" might imply that it's the end of Tsukune's "out of control" problems, but since Tsukune still keeps wearing the Holy Lock then I wouldn't be so sure about it.

I might be wrong, after all, after Tsukune's latest "rampage incident", I definitively agree that Tsukune's body has become more similar to the body of a vampire, but, in my opinion, the definite proof that Tsukune's "berserk problems" are dealt with, need Tsukune to remove the Holy Lock that he is still currently wearing, and still manage to retain his "human" sanity and so far, we hadn't seen Tsukune being able to do something like that.
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Old 2011-07-06, 00:24   Link #20509
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Man, I can't wait to see Tsukune with his vamp form kicking some ass. I'm pretty curious to the power up the other people have gotten as well.

Although Hokuto comes off as a villian, I don't really think he's a bad guy. I see him more as playing the bad guy role to help out Tsukune before he does something heroic and tells Tsukune he was always his friend.
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Old 2011-07-06, 00:24   Link #20510
kenjiharima
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Originally Posted by Magin View Post
On that color page... heywaitasec, since when did this turn into a shoujo manga?
Well since there is a survey that most girls like shounen manga, probably some manservice for them. lol

Reminds me of the anime Ragnarok. Roan being almost completely different after becoming a Paladin. I got that vibes from Tsukune.
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Old 2011-07-06, 11:05   Link #20511
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magin View Post
On that color page... heywaitasec, since when did this turn into a shoujo manga?

As for the rescue of Moka... I can completely see Inner pulling a tsundere, in the most classic/(in)famous of ways:

*As Tsukune is unleashing his youkai abilities, taking out legions of the enemy, Moka is watching, all wide-eyed and almost fan!girling, until he finally manages to get to her and frees her*

Inner :*extreme blushing* W-what took you so long? I-it's not like I asked you to show up and save me, anyways! (she also is looking off to one side, in order to avoid the bishie, lady-killing looks of Tsukune that have caused her panties to get a little stained)
... actually, I might have gone just a bit too far with that last one, but who cares?

As for the Holy lock... sure, that Beast form (as I call it) was unleashed because the ceremony wasn't complete, but... remember, we still haven't seen what the power of Shinso blood unleashed can do. And while Tsukune may have adopted to the regular yoki energy, we don't know if he's capable of controlling the Shinso power (I suspect Fuhai may have upgraded the lock too). So, it's possible that the lock stands between Tsukune and his "Beast" form
Tsukune only has *one* youki, and that's from the shinso blood. It wouldn't make sense for him to have *regular* youki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Except that there hasn't been anything mentioned about the fact that the human modification ritual has actually resolved Tsukune's "berserk side" problem.

I mean Tohou Fuhai saying "Know that you're body has been reborn" might imply that it's the end of Tsukune's "out of control" problems, but since Tsukune still keeps wearing the Holy Lock then I wouldn't be so sure about it.

I might be wrong, after all, after Tsukune's latest "rampage incident", I definitively agree that Tsukune's body has become more similar to the body of a vampire, but, in my opinion, the definite proof that Tsukune's "berserk problems" are dealt with, need Tsukune to remove the Holy Lock that he is still currently wearing, and still manage to retain his "human" sanity and so far, we hadn't seen Tsukune being able to do something like that.
The reason for him being berserk'd was because his body couldn't handle the blood/youki, and therefore it took full control of him. It was why overusing the powers was so dangerous to begin with.

Altering his body to become something that can handle is in theory should make it where he doesn't need the lock anymore.

But I do have a theory that its acting as a semi-seal as Karua's earrings did for her. When she took them off she was able to use the full extent of her powers. As with Tsukune I believe that if he takes it off he can use his. And possibly be able to transform at will just like Karua changing her arms to blade wings.
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Old 2011-07-06, 12:12   Link #20512
Mahou
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Originally Posted by xeon921 View Post
Man, I can't wait to see Tsukune with his vamp form kicking some ass. I'm pretty curious to the power up the other people have gotten as well.

Although Hokuto comes off as a villian, I don't really think he's a bad guy. I see him more as playing the bad guy role to help out Tsukune before he does something heroic and tells Tsukune he was always his friend.
Yup I wonder what role Hokuto will play. Despite being in his wheelchair, he still has his powers as it was portrayed with his arm transformation when he visted Fuhai's location. And that reminds me that whe haven't seen Kira (or was it Kiria?) yet. Those two usually act together, but maybe he has another job to do and will intervene when Tsukune-tachi is trapped like Gyokuro has predicted.
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Old 2011-07-06, 12:36   Link #20513
Chris38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Tsukune only has *one* youki, and that's from the shinso blood. It wouldn't make sense for him to have *regular* youki.

The reason for him being berserk'd was because his body couldn't handle the blood/youki, and therefore it took full control of him. It was why overusing the powers was so dangerous to begin with.

Altering his body to become something that can handle is in theory should make it where he doesn't need the lock anymore.

But I do have a theory that its acting as a semi-seal as Karua's earrings did for her. When she took them off she was able to use the full extent of her powers. As with Tsukune I believe that if he takes it off he can use his. And possibly be able to transform at will just like Karua changing her arms to blade wings.
In my opinion, the reason why Tsukune is going berserk is because his human mentality is incompatible with his vampire instincts / powers. Of course, part of the reason why Tsukune's powers where going out was, because his body still was mostly human.

Of course, you got a point in saying that after Tsukune underwent the human modification ritual, in theory he should have less problems with his vampire powers then he did before, since his body became more similar to the body of a naturally born vampire, but you seemed to forget about the second problem and that is how much Tsukune's human mentality has adjusted to the vampire instincts / power, and since Tsukune has been shown of being capable of remembering what he was doing in his "rampage form", I would say that he's shown some progress in that regard, but not to the point, where I can say that Tsukune is fully capable of controlling his Shibnso vampire abilities, without wearing the Holy Lock.

Naturally, you could say that it happened, before the human ritual technique was completed, but if that where the case, I believe that Ikeda sensei would have mentioned something about it, already.
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Old 2011-07-06, 12:57   Link #20514
Shinso Tsukune
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I think we will be seeing brilliant results, the next time Tsukune transforms into his Shinso form.

I agree with HayashiTakara's theory, having a body that not only uses Youjutsu, but is able to use youki, should make controlling his Shinso powers easier, though not fully at first, but in time Tsukune will gain full control, even though the Shinso power is the most potent force in the R+V universe, it's still youki nonetheless.
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Old 2011-07-06, 13:24   Link #20515
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Quick question for you R+V theory speculators.

How would you define "Elder Vampire" and "Shinso Vampire"? Would you lump them together to mean the same thing, or would you separate them to be meaning two very different things? I've seen how we've thrown around shinso to include Tsukune, but he's no "true ancestor" as "shinso" would imply if linked in definition with "elder".

Being that this definition thing is a bit of a problem for R+V, can it be listed the qualifications of both terms so in the future we won't confuse one for the other and make sure the newcomers know the difference?
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Old 2011-07-06, 13:35   Link #20516
Mahou
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Originally Posted by GrrDraxin View Post
Quick question for you R+V theory speculators.

How would you define "Elder Vampire" and "Shinso Vampire"? Would you lump them together to mean the same thing, or would you separate them to be meaning two very different things? I've seen how we've thrown around shinso to include Tsukune, but he's no "true ancestor" as "shinso" would imply if linked in definition with "elder".

Being that this definition thing is a bit of a problem for R+V, can it be listed the qualifications of both terms so in the future we won't confuse one for the other and make sure the newcomers know the difference?
The literal translation of Shinso is "True Ancestor" or used as an individual expression. It's true that Tsukune isn't a Shinso, but he carries the blood of it by the means of Moka who got it from Akasha. So I would use Shinso blood with Akasha, Moka and Tsukune and "Elder Vampire" with everyone else who just lived longer and a Shinso connection hasn't been confirmed with yet :shrug:
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Old 2011-07-06, 14:40   Link #20517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahou View Post
The literal translation of Shinso is "True Ancestor" or used as an individual expression. It's true that Tsukune isn't a Shinso, but he carries the blood of it by the means of Moka who got it from Akasha. So I would use Shinso blood with Akasha, Moka and Tsukune and "Elder Vampire" with everyone else who just lived longer and a Shinso connection hasn't been confirmed with yet :shrug:
Sounds like how I thought of it. So given those conditions, how old would you say is sufficient for the title of elder, and would generations and/or strength be considered in that?
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Old 2011-07-06, 15:57   Link #20518
Alhazad2003
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Sounds like how I thought of it. So given those conditions, how old would you say is sufficient for the title of elder, and would generations and/or strength be considered in that?
Though the manga clearly doesn't go by traditional vampire lore, I'd surmise once a vampire has lived for around two to three hundred years, then they'd be deemed an elder. An eminent vampire would be one who's lived around three hundred years. A patriarch would be one who's lived around a thousand years. I'm certain both Alucard and Akasha are in the latter category, while Issa and Gyokuro would be in the former. But since the Shinso blood can't be passed through heredity, generations born from them are significantly weaker. Thus the only way they can gain power is through time, like most vampires do. I hope this helps, and I can't wait for the next chapter.
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Old 2011-07-06, 18:45   Link #20519
tyranuus
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Hmmm, my internet's been out for a few days so I've only just had a chance to catch the chapter.

What can I say, pretty cool stuff.

Reading what's been said here now though, one thing does strike me. I think it's been agreed that what we've seen is now Tsukune's passive abilities, he's not pushing the boundaries or sinking in his 'vampiric' mode we've seen several times.

That being the case; it would seem that a side effect of Touhai's regeneration technique is that it has not only rebuilt his body to allow Youkai to be channelled more effectively, but I think it quite possibly has turned him full way into some sort of vampire hybrid.

Now, it could be the way it's been drawn and I'm drawing incorrect conclusions, but Tsukune does not appear to be exhibiting the traits we've usually come to expect of him in vampire mode [stage 1?]; the tribal tattoos, more vampiric look, hair colour change... and yet if you check out page 31 when you get a closeup of his face as he's charging up Bakaryuujin, he quite clearly now appears to have *fangs*. Perhaps his canines have just been overemphasised, but I don't remember them ever being drawn quite that prominently before now, even in close up.

Hopefully we'll see some more evidence one way or another in coming chapters; either way, Tsukune can definately no longer be called human.


Edit:
In regards to Shinso/Elder Vampire; I'd simply say it's a definition thing [bear in mind the below are my own opinions].

A Shinso Vampire is one who is decended from either a pure/Alucard's [dependant on if this ever gets clarified] bloodline, and possess/possessed the Shinso blood trait.
An Elder Vampire is one who has existed for hundred of years, and thus through sheer lifespan/growth [as it vampire's strength typically, and usually in lore, grows with age] will usually be stronger, and more experienced than your average vampire.

Although we don't have any fixed timespans to go on, for R+V I'd perhaps guess any vampire aged above 2-3 centuries would probably be classed as Elder; however we've not been given many vampires at all to use as a fixed point, so this guess could be completely out.

Shinso/Elder Vampire status are not mutually inclusive, however they are not mutually exclusive either; a vampire can be either, both or neither. In Akasha's case; she was likely both, as suggested by the flashback picture (with armour) which suggested she was at least 4 centuries old.

Tsukune status as 'Shinso' is a bit of an interesting case; as it sounds like in R+V, your average vampire is born as such, and 'turned' examples are rare, for whatever reason; however, as he was turned by the blood of one who carries the prerequisite Shinso Blood and Bloodline, he probably could be classified as such.
Due to his somewhat hybrid nature; whether he has the same maximum potential power levels as a thoroughbred vampire with the same Shinso trait (as I see it as somewhat of a 'power multiplier/additive') is another thing; with the involvement of the reconstruction procedure, perhaps he will, as the remaining 'natural' human element will be almost completely minimal by this point in the timeline of the manga.
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Old 2011-07-06, 18:57   Link #20520
kenjiharima
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrrDraxin View Post
Quick question for you R+V theory speculators.

How would you define "Elder Vampire" and "Shinso Vampire"? Would you lump them together to mean the same thing, or would you separate them to be meaning two very different things? I've seen how we've thrown around shinso to include Tsukune, but he's no "true ancestor" as "shinso" would imply if linked in definition with "elder".

Being that this definition thing is a bit of a problem for R+V, can it be listed the qualifications of both terms so in the future we won't confuse one for the other and make sure the newcomers know the difference?
I feel it's like a ritual of vampires where it's the passing more of the power rather than the blood itself and not really the bloodline.

It's like passing the torch which is power of the Shinso blood.

as for the elder it's like you've taken power from a god, in this case the it's an old powerful demon vampire Alucard.
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