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Old 2010-05-20, 22:43   Link #14101
Chris38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Spoiler for snip:
Then I seemed to have went a little too far with my hypothesis .... though I agree with you that different bloodlines would have particular strength's that stand out, the most.

About you're statements about the Shuzen family I think it's possible that the relations inside the family, are something like what you suggest Yoko Takeo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrrDraxin View Post
Interesting, maybe somewhere we'll get to see a family tree of them to know for sure.

However, the thing with Akua may actually bring out a nastier side of Tsukune once he finds out why Moka's memories are sealed and why Akasha disappeared. He may even try to take on Akua... perhaps to some success if she's caught off guard with surprise at his level of strength even though he's "supposed" to be human.

And For Tsukune, I think his main training with Moka didn't have as much of an impact on his youki so much as Ruby's pre-training session did, because it was there that Tsukune learned the basics of manipulating his youki, and I think because he was holding the Belmont, meant that he was operating not only at full power as if the lock wasn't there, but also learning to actively redirect his youki away from the lock itself using the shocker chain as a substitute for the lock during that bout of training. If you recall, not only has he redirecting his youki into an asymmetrical pattern around his body, he was also compressing it to keep it from hitting the lock/shock chain while he was in the heat of battle. So being that his lock is on his right arm, he was shooting off his youki through his left side instead through the whip. But if he needs to use his youki through his right hand like when he throws a punch, he can compress the energy and shunt it past the lock without even touching it to release his strength through his right hand.

I believe Moka's training after that was to drill that technique into Tsukune and make it second nature so he can learn to bring out more and more of his power without the lock interfering, and prolonging it's useful life before it's completely broken. Like the skills required to skateboard or ride a bicycle.... you can't try any fancy stunts until you've mastered your balance and confidence riding them.
Well, I agree with you GrrDraxin, it's very possible that Tsukune does something like that,, after he learned how to control his youkai energy, and Moka's training has made it more instinctive for Tsukune to do, but I don't think Tsukune is able to use this particular technique with a huge amount of youkai energy yet.

Since, from what I noticed Tsukune keeps his youkai output at the lowest level possible, that won't make him become too overwhelmed against the opponent he fights against. Another thing to consider is that, while certainly this technique is effective, I think that manipulating the flow of his youki still takes time to do, so Tsukune might have to find something else to use when he faces an opponent that is more equal to Tsukune's level of strength. Simply said I think that if Tsukune faces off against a vampire, manipulating and compressing his youki might be something that will be Tsukune's disadvantage and could lead to his defeat.

Of course I might have been over thinking this, but from what I noticed this might be one of Tsukune's weaknesses that he has to correct, before he wants to face off against a vampire or someone that is closer to Tsukune's innate level of strength.
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Old 2010-05-21, 01:17   Link #14102
kenjiharima
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
He needs to learn how to fight more than use his powers I think. When the shit hits the fan I am sure he'll have power but he won't know how to fight and will get his ass kicked, like with what happened with Hokuto last season.

Mirror? Haven't we seen Moka use one in her room?
Tsukune mostly started out as a brawler, headbutt, swing punches and the phoenix smasher lol he did when he turned ghoul in s1 manga.


I don't recall any mirror scene with Moka only the Rissu mirror.


Anyways
Spoiler for Ruby:
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Old 2010-05-21, 01:29   Link #14103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrrDraxin View Post
Interesting, maybe somewhere we'll get to see a family tree of them to know for sure.

However, the thing with Akua may actually bring out a nastier side of Tsukune once he finds out why Moka's memories are sealed and why Akasha disappeared. He may even try to take on Akua... perhaps to some success if she's caught off guard with surprise at his level of strength even though he's "supposed" to be human.
I don't doubt that if Akuha did something to Moka that forced Moka to lock away her memories, Tsukune would go into a fit of rage and take on Akuha. I can see him as being that kind of person, especially for the one he loves.

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Originally Posted by GrrDraxin View Post
And For Tsukune, I think his main training with Moka didn't have as much of an impact on his youki so much as Ruby's pre-training session did, because it was there that Tsukune learned the basics of manipulating his youki, and I think because he was holding the Belmont, meant that he was operating not only at full power as if the lock wasn't there, but also learning to actively redirect his youki away from the lock itself using the shocker chain as a substitute for the lock during that bout of training. If you recall, not only has he redirecting his youki into an asymmetrical pattern around his body, he was also compressing it to keep it from hitting the lock/shock chain while he was in the heat of battle. So being that his lock is on his right arm, he was shooting off his youki through his left side instead through the whip. But if he needs to use his youki through his right hand like when he throws a punch, he can compress the energy and shunt it past the lock without even touching it to release his strength through his right hand.
This is true to an extent, but I don't think Belmont (I wonder if anyone actually got the Castlevania reference when the headmaster gave Tsukune this whiplash) works in such a way that it completely bypasses the Holy Lock. It can do it with any other seal (Moka's seal for instance), but considering it's one of the headmaster's artifacts, he probably created the Holy Lock so that it can't be completely overriden by Belmont. What I think is that Belmont can only bring out that amount of Youki that Tsukune's already used on his own after turning into a Ghoul and learning to control it. He would have to do that if he was going to proceed to learn to control the rest of the Youki he hasn't touched yet. That's why Moka was telling Tsukune that he has the chance to become stronger. It wasn't just a matter of putting his feelings into his blows to create a decisive hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrrDraxin View Post
I believe Moka's training after that was to drill that technique into Tsukune and make it second nature so he can learn to bring out more and more of his power without the lock interfering, and prolonging it's useful life before it's completely broken. Like the skills required to skateboard or ride a bicycle.... you can't try any fancy stunts until you've mastered your balance and confidence riding them.
This, however, is partly true. Moka is trying to make Tsukune learn how to bring out the Youki on his own, but also to bring out more and more of it as time goes on. At this stage, though, I think Tsukune has learned enough that he should be able to do it on his own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Once Tsukune perfects his control of the youki he won't need the lock anymore.
He wouldn't need the lock to suppress his demon energy anymore because he's obtained full control of it. The only reason he would need it is for the same reason Moka uses her Rosario: to be able to hide his powers from the humans and be able to blend in with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
We don't even know if the lock is even viable at this point. He's gone Ghoul even with the lock on so either he was unleashing enough energy to override the lock, or the lock was just crappy to begin with.
He almost turned into a ghoul back then, but not completely. Kurumu-s rack was enough to bring him back to himself the second time he turned. I doubt something like that would ever have worked the first time he turned. The fact her chest was able to bring him back the second time means that Tsukune's own consciousness wasn't completely drowned out by his demon energy the way it was during his first transformation. The second time he turned, it was simply a matter of more Youki leaking out of the seal that Tsukune could control. The fact he'd been knocked out at the time also contributes to his lack of control.
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Old 2010-05-21, 03:43   Link #14104
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@Yoko Takeo


Quote:
I don't doubt that if Akuha did something to Moka that forced Moka to lock away her memories, Tsukune would go into a fit of rage and take on Akuha. I can see him as being that kind of person, especially for the one he loves.
That's certainly true and I think that something like that actually happened, which would leave Tsukune with no hesitations when he meets with Akuha in the real world.

Quote:
This is true to an extent, but I don't think Belmont (I wonder if anyone actually got the Castlevania reference when the headmaster gave Tsukune this whiplash) works in such a way that it completely bypasses the Holy Lock. It can do it with any other seal (Moka's seal for instance), but considering it's one of the headmaster's artifacts, he probably created the Holy Lock so that it can't be completely overriden by Belmont. What I think is that Belmont can only bring out that amount of Youki that Tsukune's already used on his own after turning into a Ghoul and learning to control it. He would have to do that if he was going to proceed to learn to control the rest of the Youki he hasn't touched yet. That's why Moka was telling Tsukune that he has the chance to become stronger. It wasn't just a matter of putting his feelings into his blows to create a decisive hit.
It;s possible, but we still don't kniow where Tsukune's Holy Lock actually cane from ... still I can definitely see the Headmaster pulling out something like that and I definitely agree with you Yoko Takeo that Tsukune has the potential to become stronger then what he has displayed so far.


Quote:
This, however, is partly true. Moka is trying to make Tsukune learn how to bring out the Youki on his own, but also to bring out more and more of it as time goes on. At this stage, though, I think Tsukune has learned enough that he should be able to do it on his own.
Well, that might be true, but I think that Tsukune, while he can bring out his youkai abilities more easily and use his vampire abilities, he still can't control his youkai aura instinctively - meaning that he has to still partially concentrate on keeping his youki under control and against stronger opponents, such as vampires ... it can be used against him. It's probably something Tsukune will gain after he becomes more familiarized with his vampire abilities, but still it's something that Tsukune will need time to master and based upon how the situation with Fairy Tale is shaping up ... I doubt Tsukune has much time left to further develop his abilities.


Quote:
He wouldn't need the lock to suppress his demon energy anymore because he's obtained full control of it. The only reason he would need it is for the same reason Moka uses her Rosario: to be able to hide his powers from the humans and be able to blend in with them.
I definitely agree with you on that Yoko Takeo

Quote:
He almost turned into a ghoul back then, but not completely. Kurumu-s rack was enough to bring him back to himself the second time he turned. I doubt something like that would ever have worked the first time he turned. The fact her chest was able to bring him back the second time means that Tsukune's own consciousness wasn't completely drowned out by his demon energy the way it was during his first transformation. The second time he turned, it was simply a matter of more Youki leaking out of the seal that Tsukune could control. The fact he'd been knocked out at the time also contributes to his lack of control.
That's true , we can definitely see that Tsukune has definitely made some progress between the first time his power's went out of control and his second time, when Tsukune nearly turned into a Ghoul, during the doppelganger arc.

I agree with you as well that the reason why Tsukune went out of control was becuase, he used he used more youkai energy then he could control, but I think that Tsukune's stay in the human world, where he didin't have to use his ayashi power's also had an effect and might be the real reason why Tsukune went out of control for the second time.

Last edited by Chris38; 2010-05-21 at 08:26.
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Old 2010-05-21, 10:51   Link #14105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
It;s possible, but we still don't kniow where Tsukune's Holy Lock actually cane from ... still I can definitely see the Headmaster pulling out something like that and I definitely agree with you Yoko Takeo that Tsukune has the potential to become stronger then what he has displayed so far.
I would be surprised if the headmaster didn't make that lock himself, although I also wouldn't be surprised if he was taught that technique by one of the two other Dark Lords, perhaps even Fuhai-san. Although the headmaster made that particular lock, the technique isn't actually his. But knowing the technique on how to make it, he may have modified it such that Belmont can't override it.

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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Well, that might be true, but I think that Tsukune, while he can bring out his youkai abilities more easily and use his vampire abilities, he still can't control his youkai aura instinctively - meaning that he has to still partially concentrate on keeping his youki under control and against stronger opponents, such as vampires ... it can be used against him. It's probably something Tsukune will gain after he becomes more familiarized with his vampire abilities, but still it's something that Tsukune will need time to master and based upon how the situation with Fairy Tale is shaping up ... I doubt Tsukune has much time left to further develop his abilities.
Like most other things, the more he does it, the more it becomes second nature to him. It's like playing an instrument. He has to focus to hit the right keys at the right time, but after practicing more and more, it becomes easier for him and he can play more difficult pieces.

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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
I agree with you as well that the reason why Tsukune went out of control was becuase, he used he used more youkai energy then he could control, but I think that Tsukune's stay in the human world, where he didin't have to use his ayashi power's also had an effect and might be the real reason why Tsukune went out of control for the second time.
I'm inclined to agree with this. Not using his powers for a long time, if it had any effect, it would be a negative one because he'd be out of practice. Besides, he never actually trained to control his Youki to begin with at the time. If it weren't for the seal, he'd have been a goner.
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Old 2010-05-21, 12:06   Link #14106
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What I'm kind of wondering about, because of all this talk about Tsukune's growth is how much Tsukune has to learn, before he reaches his true potential. I'm sure there is still a lot of things that he still has to do , but I don't think Tsukune is weak anymore.

I think that he already is stronger then all of the other girls in his harem, besides Inner Moka, which is no surprise, but I think Tsukune has already reached the level of an "average" vampire, since the last time we saw Tsukune using his power's he actually stopped a baby Phoenix (Rosario + Vampire Season II, Chapter 23, page 29), and we even know from Inner Moka that he could be even better then that, and should be able to defeat the Phoenix without her help (Rosario + Vampire Season II, Chapter 23, page 36).

Let's also not forget that, during the Sun arc, Tsukune actually managed to hit a Siren (Rosario + Vampire Season II, Chapter 21, page 39), and while Tsukune still wasn't strong enough to beat Kanade his attack still had an effect on him which lead to Kanade being defeated by Sun (Rosario + Vampire Season II, Chapter 22, page 19) , and I believe even Inner Moka would have trouble defeating that kind of opponent on her own.

So like I said before, I think that Tsukune has already reached the level of an average vampire, but he still has a lot to go, before he reaches Inner Moka's level of strength. Well probably the upcoming confrontation with Akuha will make us better understand Tsukune's current level , at least I hope we will see Tsukune in his vampire form in the current arc, since we hadn't seen Tsukune using his abilities for quite a long time and it would be nice if we could see Tsukune in his vampire form again.

Last edited by Chris38; 2010-05-21 at 12:49.
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Old 2010-05-21, 13:59   Link #14107
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I agree with everything, but remember that the only reason Tsukune hit that Siren was because Tsun was using her song of protection. Tsukune would never have gotten close to him without her help. I'm actually tempted to say that even Moka wouldn't have managed to come close to him without Tsun's help.
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Old 2010-05-21, 15:54   Link #14108
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
I agree with everything, but remember that the only reason Tsukune hit that Siren was because Tsun was using her song of protection. Tsukune would never have gotten close to him without her help. I'm actually tempted to say that even Moka wouldn't have managed to come close to him without Tsun's help.
This is true.

A siren's song is deadly to anyone with a sense of hearing.
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Old 2010-05-21, 16:14   Link #14109
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This is true.

A siren's song is deadly to anyone with a sense of hearing.
That said, there's a very easy way to beat a siren. Cover your ears
Spoiler for Yu Yu Hakusho:

Last edited by Tsuyoshi; 2010-05-21 at 16:28.
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Old 2010-05-21, 21:31   Link #14110
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Well, that's just dumb luck for Yusuke.

However, there is a difference between sonic attacks and magical sonic spells. That difference being that the "spell" requires one to be able to hear to be effective, and the other does not.

For the practical sonic attack application, it would be similar in practice to firing a powerful microwave blast at someone, and at certain frequencies it would be meant to break the victims skin cells causing micro skin lacerations, and damage blood cells that would be near the skin surface, mimicking anemia to the victim because the cells wouldn't be able to do their job anymore and would need to be disposed of and replaced.

Other types of damage could go as far as the victims bones to basically weaken them to the point of making them very fragile. However, this could also be used to strengthen the bones if done a certain way, and over a long period of time, like the bone strengthening martial artists use to their advantage for being able to pull off breaking bricks and whatnot.

I would say that the sonic attacks that "god" and Sun were doing, were probably a combination of the two, magic and practical, for it to be able to be recorded and used as if the "singer" were there, and the other way to actually have effects on the surrounding environment. And it seems there was another ability there as well of being able to open temporary spacial portals, which was used to summon those fish people during that particular fight.

So the possibilities are quite broad for any number of the powers that the creatures encountered thus far may have. Heck, we don't even know if Moka is even using her full potential either. When you have power to spare like she does, you'd think that she wouldn't limit herself to using it in hand-to-hand combat only, or just healing or just speed. My biggest gripe is that she has absolutely NO ranged combat ability whatsoever, and if she does, she hasn't made it known yet. She would have no way to counter attack if someone were shooting at her from the other side of say, The Grand Canyon, or similar large crevice. She might be able to jump over it if she really tried, but I think that air resistance would make her fall short, and I don't think she could launch herself at the speed of a bullet to do so, and even then she'd be a sitting duck while in flight. Plus if she was levitated before landing to prevent her from touching the ground, she'd be in real trouble.
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Old 2010-05-21, 21:37   Link #14111
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I can't see a bullet killing a vampire.
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Old 2010-05-21, 21:43   Link #14112
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I can't see a bullet killing a vampire.
Less its made of some blessed material
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Old 2010-05-21, 22:06   Link #14113
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I can't see a bullet killing a vampire.
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Originally Posted by Yorae_paladin1 View Post
Less its made of some blessed material
It's actually quite easy to kill a vampire with a gun: headshot

It seems youkai are probably just as vulnerable to firearms as humans in the R+V world. Of course, youkai would have speed and various advantages over a human but any youkai would be hard pressed to survive 2 to the chest depending on caliber. A 9mm might not do much damage even to a human but a .45 would do some grave damage human or youkai.

You have to remember that even vampires in R+V can die - if Kahlua didn't stop fighting Moka, her crushed internal organs would have killed her.
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Old 2010-05-21, 22:59   Link #14114
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It's actually quite easy to kill a vampire with a gun: headshot

It seems youkai are probably just as vulnerable to firearms as humans in the R+V world. Of course, youkai would have speed and various advantages over a human but any youkai would be hard pressed to survive 2 to the chest depending on caliber. A 9mm might not do much damage even to a human but a .45 would do some grave damage human or youkai.

You have to remember that even vampires in R+V can die - if Kahlua didn't stop fighting Moka, her crushed internal organs would have killed her.
Well, you've got a point there FriedRice, though I think that guy was just a bit out of it ... couldn't he have used his own youkai abilities, since even armed with a gun it took Tsukune less then a second to knock him out.

When that guy had appeared for the second time ... I thought he would be at least some kind of challenge for Tsukune, but it seems the author used him for the comedy aspect.

About the bit with Kahula ... I think it's the perfect example of how messed up vampires are, since if Miyabi hadn't stopped Kahula, she certainly would die, but Moka's injuries would probably die along with her.

It really makes me worried how the author is going to resolve the separation inside the Shuzen family with Moka and Kokoa taking Tsukune's side and the rest of their family being on the side of Fairy Tale ... if Moka's fight with Kahula was any indication of how things would go in the future ... I fear that before this conflict ends Moka will probably have to kill the rest of her family .... since I don't think a discussion with the rest of her family is going to have any effect ... and I can't find something else that could resolve this ... problem.
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Old 2010-05-21, 23:08   Link #14115
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Well, you've got a point there FriedRice, though I think that guy was just a bit out of it ... couldn't he have used his own youkai abilities, since even armed with a gun it took Tsukune less then a second to knock him out.

When that guy had appeared for the second time ... I thought he would be at least some kind of challenge for Tsukune, but it seems the author used him for the comedy aspect.

About the bit with Kahula ... I think it's the perfect example of how messed up vampires are, since if Miyabi hadn't stopped Kahula, she certainly would die, but Moka's injuries would probably die along with her.

It really makes me worried how the author is going to resolve the separation inside the Shuzen family with Moka and Kokoa taking Tsukune's side and the rest of their family being on the side of Fairy Tale ... if Moka's fight with Kahula was any indication of how things would go in the future ... I fear that before this conflict ends Moka will probably have to kill the rest of her family .... since I don't think a discussion with the rest of her family is going to have any effect ... and I can't find something else that could resolve this ... problem.
Fighting in the RV world does seem to resolve problems though. Tsukune and Moka fought against Hokuto, and even though he's with Fairy Tail he still seems to not want Tsukune dead. Not to mention the method used to recruit most of our girls into the harem.
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Old 2010-05-21, 23:25   Link #14116
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Fighting in the RV world does seem to resolve problems though. Tsukune and Moka fought against Hokuto, and even though he's with Fairy Tail he still seems to not want Tsukune dead. Not to mention the method used to recruit most of our girls into the harem.
Well that's true, but if we take into consideration what has been said about vampires so far ... that a fight for them means death (Rosario + Vampire Season II, Chapter 30, page 8) I doubt this conflict is going to end peacefully and even if Moka tries to act though about it ... I think that if she has no choice but to kill the rest of her family ... it's going to hurt her pretty bad.

Hopefully I'm over reacting about this and the author will find some way of ending this peacefully, but currently I don't see something like that happening.
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Old 2010-05-22, 09:37   Link #14117
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Well, that's just dumb luck for Yusuke.
Hahaha!!! LOL!

I was thinking of that of Yusuke all through out the YuyuHakusho series. The's not a boy with with a strange fate, but with dumb luck.

Well anyways just week or 2 we'll have the next chapter hopefully. Akuha/Aqua is starting to grow on me, though I still need to see her teen design, the loli one is cute.
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Old 2010-05-22, 16:35   Link #14118
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I have a feeling that Akuha won't be fighting in the upcoming events. I think it'll be more of an introduction with a little violence and whit.

Anyway. I just notice that this thread is close to having 1 million views
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Old 2010-05-23, 02:55   Link #14119
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Well, with over 14,000 posts at 20 per page, it's not too surprising it would garner that many hits, and probably about 5% of those are search engine hits to update their content databases.
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Old 2010-05-23, 10:45   Link #14120
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Quote:
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Hahaha!!! LOL!

I was thinking of that of Yusuke all through out the YuyuHakusho series. The's not a boy with with a strange fate, but with dumb luck.

Remember, never underestimate the power of dumb luck. Take Irresponsible Captain Tyler, if you've ever seen that series
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R+V fanfic- Chapter 4 of A Water Bride and a Vampire is now up at FF.net!

All fans of Inner or Outer Moka, come join her fanclub!
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