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Old 2010-05-27, 16:57   Link #14161
Tsuyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou-Rex View Post
This is true. Plus with how Moka is, being awfully protective and kindhearted in her own tsundere way, you can't help but think it is her own special way of caring.

Also I am intrigued by Hokuto.
Spoiler for Chapter 33, Season I:
I made a comparison between Hokuto and Tsukune earlier. You should note that despite the fact that Hokuto got rid of his Holy Lock, he was still very much conscious of what he was doing, which implies that while his body completely transformed into that of a monster's, his original human consciousness remained intact. To me, this says that Hokuto was able to control all his power to a far greater extent than Tsukune is currently able to. To me, this says that Hokuto trained just like Tsukune is now in order to control those powers, and got to the stage where he can use all his powers. This is why I feel that Tsukune will eventually be able to outgrow the Holy Lock and release all his Vampire powers while still maintaining control and keeping his human consciousness intact, as Hokuto had.
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Old 2010-05-27, 17:02   Link #14162
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
I made a comparison between Hokuto and Tsukune earlier. You should note that despite the fact that Hokuto got rid of his Holy Lock, he was still very much conscious of what he was doing, which implies that while his body completely transformed into that of a monster's, his original human consciousness remained intact. To me, this says that Hokuto was able to control all his power to a far greater extent than Tsukune is currently able to. To me, this says that Hokuto trained just like Tsukune is now in order to control those powers, and got to the stage where he can use all his powers. This is why I feel that Tsukune will eventually be able to outgrow the Holy Lock and release all his Vampire powers while still maintaining control and keeping his human consciousness intact, as Hokuto had.
Word, cause imo that's what it means, keeping yer humanity. Tsukune would still be Tsukune so long as he kept that vulnerability to him, cause gotta remember too this is a non-western work. A human can be just as strong as a youkai, the only thing separating them is that more modern humans, who are less compelled to "believe" will find themselves weak in the face of such supernatural tendencies that carry on naturally in the world. Human nature and youkai nature are not separated by such differences because you have seen instances that the girls hurt, are happy, are envious. These are all "human" emotions, but the question indeed is what makes one human and why, even now that Tsu has been Ghoulified everyone, including him, still refer to him as human?
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Old 2010-05-27, 17:04   Link #14163
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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Well that's true, though I think that she still hadn't quite submitted to her feelings foreword Tsukune. I mean I agree that she has probably deemed him worthy of being her partner, but she still isn't willing to admit that - I mean remember what she said to Tsukune in the first chapter of Season II, at page 45, that Tsukune has to conquer her, and while he is getting closer to wining over Inner Moka, I she hasn't submitted herself to Tsukune yet.

So while she certainly has feelings for him, she still hasn't deemed Tsukune worthy to be with her, and while it might not be something related to Tsukune's training, this is what I had meant by Tsukune not being a viable mate for her yet.

I know it's quite evident that she has strong feelings foreword Tsukune, but since she isn't willing to admit that to Tsukune ... not to mention the fact that it seems her feelings foreword Tsukune are starting to conflict with her vampire pride causing her to fell insecure (Rosario + Vampire Season II, Chapter 27, Page 17). So there still some development's that need to be made, before Inner Moka will accept her feelings for Tsukune. But, it's probably something that is unrelated to Inner Moka's reasons for starting her training sessions with Tsukune, so sorry for bringing it up.
I think it's more to do with her own problems rather than Tsukune's capability. She knows there's going to be a lot of trouble up ahead, battles far more difficult than anything they've yet faced, and that's why she's trying to keep a distance between herself and Tsukune, but at the same time, she's giving him a chance to show that he can fend for himself and fight alongside her once things get rough, and she's even helping him get to that stage by training him. She's simply coming up with an excuse to stop him from getting too close to her too fast.

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That's true, but you can certainly see that she slowly opens up foreword Tsukune and the other girls. As to Moka's reasons for leaving her family house well it's something that we will definitely learn about in the future, but I think that the reason for Moka starting to live in the human world is rather caused by the fact that she met Akuha and some sort of incident, which made other vampires freak out, happened between them. At least that's the impression I got so far.
Akuha's one possibility, but like I said, whatever we say Akuha caused or did is pure speculation. There could be a million reasons why Khalua said that Akuha and Moka shouldn't meet, so we really don't know what the relationship between those two is exactly until we find out what happened in Moka's past. Until then, it's pure speculation so I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Akuha is the cause of Moka's distress and subsequent separation from her family.

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Originally Posted by Ou-Rex View Post
Word, cause imo that's what it means, keeping yer humanity. Tsukune would still be Tsukune so long as he kept that vulnerability to him, cause gotta remember too this is a non-western work. A human can be just as strong as a youkai, the only thing separating them is that more modern humans, who are less compelled to "believe" will find themselves weak in the face of such supernatural tendencies that carry on naturally in the world. Human nature and youkai nature are not separated by such differences because you have seen instances that the girls hurt, are happy, are envious. These are all "human" emotions, but the question indeed is what makes one human and why, even now that Tsu has been Ghoulified everyone, including him, still refer to him as human?
You've just proven why stories of Vampires and other monsters with human-like emotions are only good in Japan
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Old 2010-05-27, 22:45   Link #14164
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I think it's more to do with her own problems rather than Tsukune's capability. She knows there's going to be a lot of trouble up ahead, battles far more difficult than anything they've yet faced, and that's why she's trying to keep a distance between herself and Tsukune, but at the same time, she's giving him a chance to show that he can fend for himself and fight alongside her once things get rough, and she's even helping him get to that stage by training him. She's simply coming up with an excuse to stop him from getting too close to her too fast.
Well, that's true and it seems like something Inner Moka would do, so I agree with you on that Yoko Takeo. Seems like she has to gain a lot of character development, before she will be ready to accept Tsukune's feelings.

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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
Akuha's one possibility, but like I said, whatever we say Akuha caused or did is pure speculation. There could be a million reasons why Khalua said that Akuha and Moka shouldn't meet, so we really don't know what the relationship between those two is exactly until we find out what happened in Moka's past. Until then, it's pure speculation so I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that Akuha is the cause of Moka's distress and subsequent separation from her family.
True, we still don't know, but I get the felling that Akuha is the cause of it ... but like you said, Yoko Takeo we still don't have enough information to speculate about that, so it's probably best to leave this discussion, until we learn more information about Moka's past.

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Word, cause imo that's what it means, keeping yer humanity. Tsukune would still be Tsukune so long as he kept that vulnerability to him, cause gotta remember too this is a non-western work. A human can be just as strong as a youkai, the only thing separating them is that more modern humans, who are less compelled to "believe" will find themselves weak in the face of such supernatural tendencies that carry on naturally in the world. Human nature and youkai nature are not separated by such differences because you have seen instances that the girls hurt, are happy, are envious. These are all "human" emotions, but the question indeed is what makes one human and why, even now that Tsu has been Ghoulified everyone, including him, still refer to him as human?
Well, OuRex like Yoko Takeo, said I think you basically proven why stories like R+V, with monster's having human like emotions, are only good in Japan.

Well, referring to you're question OuRex, we simply don't know the reason why Tsukune is still considered a human, if I remember correctly me and Yoko Takeo have spent a lot of time discussing this as well, and we still haven't gotten to a definite answer to that ... well I think that the reason why Tsukune is still a human might be caused by the fact that vampires are the most human like monster's of the R+V universe, so Tsukune's transformation probably didn't involve changing his entire body, leaving it mostly human.

Simply said Tsukune is still basically a human, that has acquired vampire abilities, and didn't loose his humanity (which is one of the things that make us human) in the process ... so it's not like Tsukune is wrong by still considering himself a human.

Well, as like I said before it's not like we still know everything about Tsukune's change and I don't think that Tsukune is aware of what kind of being he has became, but I think that Tsukune and his friends are still considering him a human, because they think that it's the closest thing Tsukune is to
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Old 2010-05-29, 00:19   Link #14165
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Damn you Chris and Yoko, you keep creating Walls of Text and make it a case of tl;dr

anyways, I think the reason Tsukune is still classified as human and not vampire is for two major reasons: one, he doesn't have the strength that a vampire would have if they were at Tsukune's age (I suspect that Tsukune may be a little stronger than Kokoa, but there's no proof to support that idea) and two, he doesn't have the fighting/killing instinct that all vampires have been shown to have. The only time he does is when he goes into ghoul/berserk vampire mode, and that's when it can be said he truly has lost all traces of his humanity. And since that's a form we've only seen twice plus considering the circumstances around that form, it's not really Tsukune at that point.

Otherwise, have you noticed Tsukune's only gone into a fight when he has to defend one of the girls? Unlike what it seems with most of the vampires, who seem to attack first, Tsukune generally doesn't make the first move. And I think that's probably the biggest difference between him and true vampires.
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Old 2010-05-29, 01:57   Link #14166
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Well, you've got a point there Magin, though I think the reason why Tsukune's strength is currently lower then that of a vampire is caused by him wearing the Holy Lock, and as a Hokuto's example showed the Lock is restricting quite a lot of youkai energy (Rosario + Vampire, Chapter 33, Page 32), so we still don't know what is Tsukune's "true" strength - I mean without his Holy Lock sealing a part of his youkai energy. So, it might be possible that without the Lock Tsukune would be as strong as a vampire of his age, but since he still can't control himself without the Holy Lock ... I doubt will see something that would clarify this.

On the second thing you mentioned Magin ... I think that Tsukune will gain the fighting / killing instinct that vampires have, once he deals and merges with the darker aspect of his vampire abilities, but even by then I think that Tsukune, will still try to resolve things peacefully and start using force, only when there is no other option left.

So I think that I agree with you Magin that there is always going to be a difference between Tsukune and the true vampires.
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Old 2010-05-29, 11:49   Link #14167
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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Well, you've got a point there Magin, though I think the reason why Tsukune's strength is currently lower then that of a vampire is caused by him wearing the Holy Lock, and as a Hokuto's example showed the Lock is restricting quite a lot of youkai energy (Rosario + Vampire, Chapter 33, Page 32), so we still don't know what is Tsukune's "true" strength - I mean without his Holy Lock sealing a part of his youkai energy. So, it might be possible that without the Lock Tsukune would be as strong as a vampire of his age, but since he still can't control himself without the Holy Lock ... I doubt will see something that would clarify this.

On the second thing you mentioned Magin ... I think that Tsukune will gain the fighting / killing instinct that vampires have, once he deals and merges with the darker aspect of his vampire abilities, but even by then I think that Tsukune, will still try to resolve things peacefully and start using force, only when there is no other option left.

So I think that I agree with you Magin that there is always going to be a difference between Tsukune and the true vampires.

Ima have to disagree there. If Tsukune were to gain a Killing Instinct, much unlike killing intent, he would completely lose his Tsukune-ness. Of all of them he's the diplomatic one, but at the same time he is willing to protect them without second thought. I think that defines him more as both a man and a human , to be able to do that. He hasn't the will to kill, but at the same time he will push his enemy to the limit if it meant protecting the girls, as we saw in the chapters involving Sun-senpai. I simply don't believe that there should ever be a need for Tsukune to involve a killing instinct outside his killing intent, nor do I believe it's in Tsukune's nature.
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Old 2010-05-29, 11:59   Link #14168
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Ima have to disagree there. If Tsukune were to gain a Killing Instinct, much unlike killing intent, he would completely lose his Tsukune-ness. Of all of them he's the diplomatic one, but at the same time he is willing to protect them without second thought. I think that defines him more as both a man and a human , to be able to do that. He hasn't the will to kill, but at the same time he will push his enemy to the limit if it meant protecting the girls, as we saw in the chapters involving Sun-senpai. I simply don't believe that there should ever be a need for Tsukune to involve a killing instinct outside his killing intent, nor do I believe it's in Tsukune's nature.
I agree. As I mentioned before, if Tsukune were to change due to his vampire transformation and obtain the will to kill or the instinct to kill that all Vampires have, he would no longer be the Tsukune that we know. On top of that, I highly doubt that Moka is training him to obtain the will to kill. At least not because she wants him to be that way, but because he will have to, although I am under the opinion that Moka's training was successful in that aspect when Tsukune successfully helped defeat the Siren. She was teaching him to put the strength of his feelings into his blows. I doubt she wants him to change because she loves him for who he is already, not for who he could be.
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Old 2010-05-29, 13:00   Link #14169
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
I agree. As I mentioned before, if Tsukune were to change due to his vampire transformation and obtain the will to kill or the instinct to kill that all Vampires have, he would no longer be the Tsukune that we know. On top of that, I highly doubt that Moka is training him to obtain the will to kill. At least not because she wants him to be that way, but because he will have to, although I am under the opinion that Moka's training was successful in that aspect when Tsukune successfully helped defeat the Siren. She was teaching him to put the strength of his feelings into his blows. I doubt she wants him to change because she loves him for who he is already, not for who he could be.
we already seen what Moka will do if Tsukune is no longer himself
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Old 2010-05-29, 15:00   Link #14170
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we already seen what Moka will do if Tsukune is no longer himself
That's true to an extent, although what I mean is that if Tsukune himself were to develop a killer instinct in addition to his original personality, he wouldn't be the Tsukune she fell in love with. Tsukune when he turned into a ghoul wasn't actually Tsukune to begin with, but a mindless monster, very much dissimilar to the idea of Tsukune himself with killing intent.
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Old 2010-05-29, 21:58   Link #14171
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Well then Takeo, OuRex ... how do you think the Ghoul problem is going to be resolved. I mean I agree that a Tsukune with killing intent won't be the same Tsukune as we know, but I still think that Tsukune has to deal with the darker aspect of his vampire abilities and since it's an integral part of the vampire blood, that is contained inside Tsukune, it's not like it can just disappear.

So Tsukune has to deal with it sooner or later, before he reaches his true potential.

Of course we still don't know how Tsukune is going to do it, and it might be even possible that when Tsukune learns how to control his abilities fully ... he will be able to control his vampire impulses as well ... though I doubt something like that is going to happen, since it sounds a little too easy and with so much development this aspect of Tsukune's vampire abilities has received so far, I expect the author to do something better then that.

... sigh, maybe I'm over thinking this, but I think that Tsukune, after he manages to control his berserk vampire nature, has to undergo some character development just to show that such a change inside him, took place and knowing what the vampire nature is like, it isn't difficult to draw a conclusion that "the change" is going to be related to Tsukune's combat abilities.
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Old 2010-05-30, 00:26   Link #14172
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Well, we already have a pretty good idea of how he's going to beat the berserk vampire mode (which, due to a certain discussion, is what I call Ghoul mode): he's already learning to control his youkai power, so that in the future, when the Lock is taken off one way or another, he'll be able to master the full power of the vampire blood within him.

of course, I still think he has a ways to go before he's ready to take on that challenge... but I do see Round 2 vs. Miyabi possibly being a step on the way there (with Issa being not only the potential Final Boss, but also the one Tsukune would have to have full mastery of his power in order to beat)
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Old 2010-05-30, 01:01   Link #14173
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Well, I admit that Tsukune controlling his youkai abilities is definitely a factor that will help him in beating his vampire berserk mode, but I doubt that it's the only factor that is necessary for Tsukune to beat the darker aspect of his power's.

Thinking about it, the only way I currently see, for Tsukune to take control over his berserk vampire form is for him to understand the mentality of a vampire and form some sort of connection with it - I mean Tsukune has to somehow accept that the berserk vampire form .... is already a part of who he has become and while Tsukune training his abilities with Moka, is definitely something that will help him understand vampires and their nature better. I doubt it's going to help him to accept the "berserk vampire" part of him.

I definitely agree with you Magin, that Tsukune's second round with Miyabi is definitely something that will allow Tsukune to take on his "primitive vampire" part and bring it under his control. I also agree with you that currently Tsukune isn't ready yet, to take that sort of challenge (betting his "primitive vampire" form into submission)

Well, I hope that we will see Tsukune fighting someone soon, since then we will probably better understand how much progress he has made, as well as how much training he still going to need.
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Old 2010-05-30, 01:23   Link #14174
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Sadly, the one downside of the current arc: we haven't had much of a chance to see Tsukune kick ass and put his training to the test, other than against the mafia and the Sirens. And though powerful, Sirens probably aren't quite vampire level.

And I don't think Tsukune will have to accept the berserk vampire mode- I see it more as this: he's tapped deeply into the power, and he can feel the urge to kill rising within him. But, by using willpower or some other plot device, I think he'll ending rejecting said urge... be moments away from ripping the head off an opponent, but gain control over the killing intent before his hands become stained with blood
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Old 2010-05-30, 03:18   Link #14175
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I agree that, what you have proposed Magin, might have a better chance of happening, though of course it depends on how the author plans to resolve this matter ... well thinking about I still think that Tsukune, when he realizes that there exists something like that inside him, even after he manages to bring the killing intent you mentioned under control , is still going to need some time to get used to the fact, that such violent impulses are existing inside him.

I also agree that there have been far to little appearance's of Tsukune's vampire form lately, so I hope the author is going to do something about that soon.
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Old 2010-05-30, 08:21   Link #14176
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I think it's quite simple actually. The way I see it, Ghoul mode is the absolute manifestation of Tsukune's darker, more violent aspect. The Vampire nature is one of violence and bloodlust. That nature will correspond with Tsukune's dark thoughts and feelings and synchronize with it, bringing them out into the open and superimposing Tsukune's true, lighter self. If Tsukune can conquer his darker self, that way, his Ghoul mode won't resurface and Tsukune can use the power efficiently without succumbing to the dark nature of Vampires. His will to protect is already very strong, stronger perhaps than even the killing intent of the most powerful Vampires. His fight with the siren is proof enough of that, and like in most Shounen, the will to protect someone important > aimless killer instinct.
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Old 2010-05-30, 08:31   Link #14177
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I wanna see Aqua/Akhua as teen......I don't wanna grow too attached to the loli version.

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Old 2010-05-30, 09:54   Link #14178
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Well, thanks for clarifying that for me Yoko Takeo and yes ... I can definitely see the story going that way, though I still hope that the author is going to do something more original then that, or at least present all that development in some original way. Well I still think that it's something that we still won't see for some time, since I don't think Tsukune is ready for such a confrontation to take place, and maybe by then we will be given some hints that might suggest to us, how does the author want's to resolve this.
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Old 2010-05-30, 12:05   Link #14179
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@Kenji
The thing I love the most about that pic- we have the three lovely older sisters, and then there's Kokoa in the corner... for those who watched the old episodes of Pokemon, she kinda reminds me of Misty like that...
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Old 2010-05-30, 13:33   Link #14180
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so the next chapter should be out sometime next week or so huh cant wait.
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