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Old 2010-05-30, 14:31   Link #14181
Ou-Rex
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In accordance to the above conversations about his berserk form, may I raise a theory?

What if perhaps his training is not jsut to control his youki? What separates Ghoul from Vampire currently? It seems that the vampire sisters can easily control their more violent urges and not go berserk. When fighting they have a honed control of their youki, but one has to consider the nature of youki and one's youkai.

Youkai, is much the equivalent to a ayashi's conscience. Often (not just RV as an example) there is an inner feeling of instinct that many youkai refer to as their inner youkai. It is a deep instinct that lures them into battle. This inner youkai is often in control of their youki and powers. What if for Tsukune to get a reign on his youki would also mean reigning in his inner youkai, it being berserk vampire Tsu?

Could we perhaps say that this killer instinct will be prevented from surfacing....because he can control his emotions? As we see all the times he has gone berserk with the Holy Lock in place, the girls were in severe danger. Perhaps this was noticed and for him to control his feelings he had to learn to wield them properly. Of course the only person capable of showing him how to wield his vampiric youki was another vampire. And another vampire would clearly know the cons to being unable to control their emotions.Many vampires seem very obstinate and have a distinct control over those "unnecessary" emotions which could define why Moka often keeps those emotions deep down inside herself (Outer Moka) and why Kokoa tries to keep stoic and independent, but both seem more than anything to want to show those feelings to others outside their race.

Diversion aside... control over emotion = youki control. If Moka can teach him to control his emotions, it can prove why she is so harsh with her training, to temper him to any possibility and keep him in control under the most strained conditions, and a good example to the fruits of her labour were indeed during the battle with Kanade Kamiya. If he can control his emotions that happenstance of berserk Tsu may be a thing of the past.
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Old 2010-05-30, 16:30   Link #14182
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@Ou-Rex: I like it, because it's actually very similar to the theory I raised. Tsukune needs to control his darker, more violent self, those being his emotions and his own disposition for violence if he wants to master his own vampire nature, that of his Ghoul mode.

@Chris38: I would also want to see the author create something more original, but it doesn't have to be with the way Tsukune masters his vampire powers because I'm quite certain that's what Tsukune has to deal with: conquering his own dark thoughts and emotions to master the bloodthirsty nature of his Vampire self. Rather, I hope to see the author present that theme in a much more original way that no one else has done before. Consider the fact that there hasn't been a story where a human turning into a Vampire has to train physically in order to master its use.

As for the difference between an actual Vampire and a Ghoul, it's much like the difference between a bar brawler and a trained martial artist. Their physical strength and speed are exactly the same, except where one throws aimless punches out of the blue, the other's punches and throws are all purposeful, efficient and intended to strike with minimum effort to inflict the greatest amount of damange. One is disciplined, the other is uneducated and out of control.
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Old 2010-05-31, 01:14   Link #14183
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Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
As for the difference between an actual Vampire and a Ghoul, it's much like the difference between a bar brawler and a trained martial artist. Their physical strength and speed are exactly the same, except where one throws aimless punches out of the blue, the other's punches and throws are all purposeful, efficient and intended to strike with minimum effort to inflict the greatest amount of damange. One is disciplined, the other is uneducated and out of control.
I think so far it's only in Tsukune's case you can say that. Although he had zero fighting ability when he first turned into a ghoul. Even a mindless ghoul should resort to some sort of instinctive fighting. Now that he's had some actually training under his belt it would be interesting to see if your theory held up...
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Old 2010-05-31, 06:40   Link #14184
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I think so far it's only in Tsukune's case you can say that. Although he had zero fighting ability when he first turned into a ghoul. Even a mindless ghoul should resort to some sort of instinctive fighting. Now that he's had some actually training under his belt it would be interesting to see if your theory held up...
That is true. I was only referring to a pure Ghoul to answer the question of what the difference between a Ghoul and a Vampire is, one whose "host" did not receive any kind of formal training. Tsukune has trained quite a bit with Moka now so the situation for him has changed. Imo, it would be really difficult for Tsukune to completely turn into a Ghoul. His character could change if he loses control, but he would still have some control in terms of fighting knowledge. He just wouldn't be the same character, perhaps conflicted deep inside between his human and vampire nature. Who knows, it could even create multiple personalities, though that's pure speculation on my part.
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Old 2010-05-31, 11:09   Link #14185
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Spoiler for snip:
I agree that if Tsukune losses control, the result's are not going to be good and even if he manages to control himself, he's not going to be the same Tsukune we know, since as you said Yoko Takeo, the nature of a vampire is quite different then the one of human, and well the future does not look good for Tsukune if he losses control.

I also agree that Tsukune isn't a ordinary Ghoul (Primitive vampire), or rather he isn't even that ... since I wouldn't call the way Tsukune's transformation went ... ordinary., so his development might be different compared to how vampires evolved in the past, so we are still not sure what Tsukune currently is and what he is going to become. The only thing that we are certain about is that Tsukune's final form is quite certainly going to have some relation with vampires, but won't become a vampire, unless the author is going to pull some kind of plot wist later in the story.

At least that's what I think Tsukune is going to become in the future, though we still don't everything about his current form and what kind of effect the vampire blood is having on Tsukune. I mean mental effects since, like I said before Tsukune's physical transformation is probably already finished.

I just believe that the vampire instincts present inside his vampire blood might be affecting him already when Tsukune is using his vampire abilities, since while Tsukune still is in control of himself, most of the time when he changes into his vampire form, but he still acts a little differently compared to how he normally acts. I kind of got that felling, after seeing Tsukune fight as well noticing that the only times that Tsukune was at risk of turning into a Ghoul was when the vampire blood has awakened inside him and turned Tsukune to his vampire mode.

So I think that the vampire instincts (killing intent, urge for blood and so on ) are already present and active inside Tsukune when he uses his power's, but thanks to the Holy Lock Tsukune is able to contro and suppress them, when his will is strong ... why else would the risk of Tsukune turning into a Ghoul (primitive vampire) only appear when Tsukune is using his power's (Rosario + Vampire, chapter 33 page 7) if it wasn't related meaning that, the elements that initiate Tsukune's degeneration into a Ghoul are already present whenever he uses his power's ... actually this might be the reason why Tsukune's training to control his youkai abilities, is also helping Tsukune in taming his berserk vampire form.

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Old 2010-05-31, 12:27   Link #14186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
I also agree that Tsukune isn't a ordinary Ghoul (Primitive vampire), or rather he isn't even that ... since I wouldn't call the way Tsukune's transformation went ... ordinary., so his development might be different compared to how vampires evolved in the past, so we are still not sure what Tsukune currently is and what he is going to become. The only thing that we are certain about is that Tsukune's final form is quite certainly going to have some relation with vampires, but won't become a vampire, unless the author is going to pull some kind of plot wist later in the story.
Tsukune is already very similar to Vampires, even his thirst for blood. So I doubt that Tsukune would be any different from Vampires if he lets loose all of his powers, whether or not he can control his powers or not. I just think it's a lot more simple than people are making it out to be. Moka gave Tsukune her blood, and it's through her blood that he has his powers. They are essentially no different from Moka's powers. His Ghoul form is nothing more than an animalistic manifestation of those powers without the willpower to control them. Moka's training served to allow Tsukune to use those powers at will. I suspect that if Tsukune where to use all his pwoers by releasing the lock after completing his training, his body would be completely transformed, but his mind and his heart would remain his own. This would essentially make him not much different from a real Vampire if not exactly the same.

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At least that's what I think Tsukune is going to become in the future, though we still don't everything about his current form and what kind of effect the vampire blood is having on Tsukune. I mean mental effects since, like I said before Tsukune's physical transformation is probably already finished.
Indeed, his physical transformation was indeed complete, and Tsukune wasn't ready for the burden. As I said before, the physical difference between a Ghoul like Tsukune and a Vampire is nothing. They are physically 100% equal. The only difference is the mentality. That's why if Tsukune were to master those powers, he could release the lock, thus becoming again the Ghoul, but be in control of his body.

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I just believe that the vampire instincts present inside his vampire blood might be affecting him already when Tsukune is using his vampire abilities, since while Tsukune still is in control of himself, most of the time when he changes into his vampire form, but he still acts a little differently compared to how he normally acts. I kind of got that felling, after seeing Tsukune fight as well noticing that the only times that Tsukune was at risk of turning into a Ghoul was when the vampire blood has awakened inside him and turned Tsukune to his vampire mode.
I think that only counted for the times Tsukune transformed before becoming a complete Ghoul. Every time he switched back, Tsukune's mental state was back to normal, so there weren't any apparent effects on his mind during those times, and he still hasn't been affected now either. The only things that changed him mentally are the events that took place during his time at the Youkai Academy.

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So I think that the vampire instincts (killing intent, urge for blood and so on ) are already present and active inside Tsukune when he uses his power's, but thanks to the Holy Lock Tsukune is able to contro and suppress them, when his will is strong ... why else would the risk of Tsukune turning into a Ghoul (primitive vampire) only appear when Tsukune is using his power's (Rosario + Vampire, chapter 33 page 7) if it wasn't related meaning that, the elements that initiate Tsukune's degeneration into a Ghoul are already present whenever he uses his power's ... actually this might be the reason why Tsukune's training to control his youkai abilities, is also helping Tsukune in taming his berserk vampire form.
His thirst for blood is already active when he's not using his powers (R+V season 1, chap. 27, p. 17). He's only able to control his urges through pure willpower, and I think that will be the only difference between him and real Vampires once he's learned to fully control his vampire powers. His body is exactly the same as a Vampires with a few difference, such as being resistant to water and silver, but I think the biggest difference is that Tsukune wouldn't need to drink blood if he has absolute control over his powers. Otherwise, he'll be exactly the same as a Vampire.
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Old 2010-06-01, 04:06   Link #14187
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.
That's definitely true and something that I could definitely agree with Yoko Takeo and could explain why Inner Moka has asked Tsukune if he still doesn't want to become a youkai, before she offered Tsukune the proposition of training with her (Rosario + Vampire Season II, Chapter 15, page 40)

The only problem I have with you're theory ,Yoko Takeo is that why would Tsukune be still considered a human at this point. By you're words I'm judging that Tsukune's physical build up would be no different then a vampire at the end, meaning that he should acquire the typical vampire weaknesses as well, which would make Tsukune weaker then he currently is.

Of course the explanation that could be given is that Tsukune's physical transformation hasn't went that far yet, and when Tsukune manages to use his abilities without his Holy Lock and won't loose control to the vampire blood present inside his body, Tsukune is going to go through some physical transformation that will make him resemble a vampire more ... though it seems a bit unlikely too me, since if the author had kept Tsukune's immunity to typical vampire weaknesses for so long, why would he make him suddenly loose them ?

Which made me think that it might be possible that the physical changes inside Tsukune's body might not be so extensive as we thought earlier .... meaning that Tsukune's body is still mostly human and the only changes that have occurred inside it are the increase of Tsukune's physical attributes (muscle strength, speed, regeneration from wounds) as well as changing Tsukune's blood production organs, so that it produces Tsukune's own vampire blood..

It's the only reason, I could think about, that could explain why the typical vampire weaknesses aren't affecting Tsukune and I think it will always be a difference between Tsukune and the present day vampires.

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Spoiler for snip:
Well, that's true I seem to have messed up a bit and forgot that it's just a example of Tsukune growing up and becoming a better man and that the vampire blood doesn't have any effect on it at all (at least according to what we know so far)

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Well, I'm not too sure about it, since apart from the the chapter you mentioned as well as a brief mention in R+V season I, chapter 28, page 7, there have been nothing else mentioned about Tsukune's bloodlust, so we don't know what happened to it, I mean is Tsukune still having occasional urges for blood or has it mysteriously disappeared and isn't affecting Tsukune anymore. Currently, we simply don't know what actually happened with Tsukune's thirst for blood, so unless the author gives some hints regarding Tsukune's bloodlust I doubt we will be able to reach some sort of compromise on this particular topic.
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Old 2010-06-01, 06:50   Link #14188
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Is the anime related with this manga>? which chapter the anime stop it? because i want continue with story
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Old 2010-06-01, 09:42   Link #14189
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Just ignore the anime all together, and read the manga from the start. The first season was somewhat accurate with the manga, but left off enough details that your missing some good stuff. The second season was just for masturbating to...
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Old 2010-06-01, 09:43   Link #14190
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Is the anime related with this manga>? which chapter the anime stop it? because i want continue with story
The anime is simply a giant Omake of the manga, so... yeah...
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Old 2010-06-01, 10:00   Link #14191
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That's definitely true and something that I could definitely agree with Yoko Takeo and could explain why Inner Moka has asked Tsukune if he still doesn't want to become a youkai, before she offered Tsukune the proposition of training with her (Rosario + Vampire Season II, Chapter 15, page 40)

The only problem I have with you're theory ,Yoko Takeo is that why would Tsukune be still considered a human at this point. By you're words I'm judging that Tsukune's physical build up would be no different then a vampire at the end, meaning that he should acquire the typical vampire weaknesses as well, which would make Tsukune weaker then he currently is.

Of course the explanation that could be given is that Tsukune's physical transformation hasn't went that far yet, and when Tsukune manages to use his abilities without his Holy Lock and won't loose control to the vampire blood present inside his body, Tsukune is going to go through some physical transformation that will make him resemble a vampire more ... though it seems a bit unlikely too me, since if the author had kept Tsukune's immunity to typical vampire weaknesses for so long, why would he make him suddenly loose them ?

Which made me think that it might be possible that the physical changes inside Tsukune's body might not be so extensive as we thought earlier .... meaning that Tsukune's body is still mostly human and the only changes that have occurred inside it are the increase of Tsukune's physical attributes (muscle strength, speed, regeneration from wounds) as well as changing Tsukune's blood production organs, so that it produces Tsukune's own vampire blood..

It's the only reason, I could think about, that could explain why the typical vampire weaknesses aren't affecting Tsukune and I think it will always be a difference between Tsukune and the present day vampires.
Well, to be more, clear, I mean to say that Tsukune's powers will be the same as that of a Vampire, so in terms of fighting skills, his physical abilities would be no different at all. I said this later in my post that the only difference between Tsukune and normal Vampires would be the absence of their traditional weaknesses and his lack of thirst for blood. I'll get to the second point later in this post. Tsukune's physical transformation into a Ghoul is complete, and as I said before, a Ghoul's physical strength and attributes are exactly the same as a Vampire's, but as we saw, he is impervious to water, which likely means he's immune to other elements Vampires are weak against. That's because the Ghoul's body was originally human. That wouldn't change if Tsukune gains complete control of his Vampire powers. His body will be that of a Ghoul's, giving him all the strength of a Vampire, but on top of that he will have the discipline and fighting abilities taught to him by a true Vampire. That would put him on the same level as other Vampires with some advantages to boot.

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Well, I'm not too sure about it, since apart from the the chapter you mentioned as well as a brief mention in R+V season I, chapter 28, page 7, there have been nothing else mentioned about Tsukune's bloodlust, so we don't know what happened to it, I mean is Tsukune still having occasional urges for blood or has it mysteriously disappeared and isn't affecting Tsukune anymore. Currently, we simply don't know what actually happened with Tsukune's thirst for blood, so unless the author gives some hints regarding Tsukune's bloodlust I doubt we will be able to reach some sort of compromise on this particular topic.
It's true that there's very little to go on. What I mean to point out is that the powers of a Vampire come along with the thirst for blood and killing intent. Tsukune was not trained during that time and the lock was showing the first signs of losing its effectiveness when Tsukune was drawing the the scent of Moka's blood earlier in that chapter I pointed out, and later tried to take a bite of her. I believe that as Tsukune gains more control of his powers, so will he overcome his thirst for blood. That is why, when Tsukune gains complete control of his powers, he will essentially be no different from other Vampires, where the most prominent difference between him and Vampires will be the lack of bloodthirst, given that he can control his powers and therefore, his urges.

That, or he'll pull a Raizen and starve for 1000 years before he dies

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Old 2010-06-01, 14:23   Link #14192
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*raises hand* I notice by scanning through this you guys keep changing between Ghoul and Vampire. I suppose to add to the conversation, why? I hope I am not appearing to mean things rudely, but Ghoul and Vampire are very different.

Ghouls do not hold the same weaknesses as vampires have evolved over their existence. If recall from the Ghoul Data bit they are primitive vampires. Is it safe to assume Ghouls did not evolve those weaknesses yet as their mental state was so absurdly aggravated? What if to control their rampage they lessened their feedings, but because, naturally, vampires (ghouls) suffer from a type of anemia where they are unable to produce the nutrients they need found in blood.

With vampires no longer feeding as much and more controlled, their symptoms became more predominate and their bodies severely weakened. (if we note chapter 26 of season II how Ura is so overly concerned with her state of health yet shes a daiyoukai) so they struggle more so than Ghouls. And we know after Tsukune "Ghoulified" he lost his vampire transformation because whenever he does "change", unlike before where he had some state of mind as a vampire, as a Ghoul he's out of control (Chapter 6, Season II).

Putting my jumping of words aside, in short did Tsukune not lose his Vampire form after the final trigger and he only Ghouls now? Even the girls call him that when he berserkers. Because he is a Ghoul, and not a vampire, he does not hold the weaknesses and ALSO, to note why he doesn't remember changing and his state of mind is so lucid after because he and Ghoul are two souls in one body, as mentioned when he first transformed. Does that make sense? I have noticed that and just making conversation.

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Old 2010-06-01, 15:00   Link #14193
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Tsukune is technically not a ghoul, the term ghoul is just used as a comparison in his state of being. Even R+V identified a ghoul as a corpse possessed by a malevolent spirit/demon.

Tsukune is when berserked is controlled by the primal vampiric instincts of the blood, as Moka stated that vampires by nature are a violent warlike species.
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Old 2010-06-01, 15:25   Link #14194
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Is the anime related with this manga>? which chapter the anime stop it? because i want continue with story
Disregard the anime and forget that you ever watched it. THEN, read the manga and enjoy how great it is.

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The anime is simply a giant Omake of the manga, so... yeah...
That is the best way of putting it, isn't it?
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Old 2010-06-01, 15:58   Link #14195
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*raises hand* I notice by scanning through this you guys keep changing between Ghoul and Vampire. I suppose to add to the conversation, why? I hope I am not appearing to mean things rudely, but Ghoul and Vampire are very different.
The way I see it, they're the same in terms of pure physical power. The difference lies in how they use that power. Vampires are much more disciplined than Ghouls, who tend to be ballistic and even bestial in their use of the power they've been given, only driven by their bloodlust.

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Ghouls do not hold the same weaknesses as vampires have evolved over their existence. If recall from the Ghoul Data bit they are primitive vampires. Is it safe to assume Ghouls did not evolve those weaknesses yet as their mental state was so absurdly aggravated? What if to control their rampage they lessened their feedings, but because, naturally, vampires (ghouls) suffer from a type of anemia where they are unable to produce the nutrients they need found in blood.

With vampires no longer feeding as much and more controlled, their symptoms became more predominate and their bodies severely weakened. (if we note chapter 26 of season II how Ura is so overly concerned with her state of health yet shes a daiyoukai) so they struggle more so than Ghouls. And we know after Tsukune "Ghoulified" he lost his vampire transformation because whenever he does "change", unlike before where he had some state of mind as a vampire, as a Ghoul he's out of control (Chapter 6, Season II).
I believe the only reason why Ghouls don't share the same weaknesses as actual Vampires is because they were originally human. Because their body has a human base, they're not affected by what pureblood Vampires would find inhibiting. The following scan even proves this:

Spoiler for Scan:

That said, I doubt it has anything to do with Ghouls being a primitive form of Vampires, considering they were originally human. Hokuto was also a Ghoul, and there's no proof that Kyria is a mix between Vampire and another Ayashi (though I have my theory on that).

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Putting my jumping of words aside, in short did Tsukune not lose his Vampire form after the final trigger and he only Ghouls now? Even the girls call him that when he berserkers. Because he is a Ghoul, and not a vampire, he does not hold the weaknesses and ALSO, to note why he doesn't remember changing and his state of mind is so lucid after because he and Ghoul are two souls in one body, as mentioned when he first transformed. Does that make sense? I have noticed that and just making conversation.
No. Tsukune's transformation into a Ghoul was complete and there's no way to undo that. If there was, Tsukune wouldn't even need a Holy Lock in the first place. The Headmaster himself said that there was no other way to save Tsukune apart from either killing him or letting him go and kill more people. The Holy Lock serves to perform a similar task that Moka's Rosario performs. However, the lock breaks away the more power Tsukune uses, and that is why he is training to control it. If he were to remove the lock, all his power would come out and there's nothing Tsukune can do to change that. The only thing he can do is control it by his own will, but his body is already completely transformed. When he first transformed, his mind was completely overtaken by the bloodlust. It's not dissimilar to when you enter a fit of rage and don't remember what you've done afterwards. And as I said earlier, the lack of common Vampire weaknesses with him has to do with the fact he was originally human.
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Old 2010-06-01, 16:07   Link #14196
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Like I said, Tsukune isn't technically a ghoul. The ghoul term is just used as a comparison.
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Old 2010-06-01, 16:13   Link #14197
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Like I said, Tsukune isn't technically a ghoul. The ghoul term is just used as a comparison.
They are to wrapped up in their discussion to realize that you are right.

Tsukune acts the way a ghoul would if the vampire blood takes over, but he has never technically been a ghoul.
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Old 2010-06-01, 16:17   Link #14198
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Like I said, Tsukune isn't technically a ghoul. The ghoul term is just used as a comparison.
Well yes, you're right on that. I'm only referring to Tsukune in this instance for now considering there's no other way to refer to him when he's drunk on his Vampire powers. Unless you'd rather call him a pseudo-Vampire, though Ghoul is much shorter and more time-saving compared to that
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Old 2010-06-01, 16:24   Link #14199
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The vampire blood is powerful, when it takes control of him the natural instincts of primal vampires causes his berserk state. As to what to call him... well that's hard to say. He possess all the pro's of a vampire and none of the cons. The only con he has is that if the blood run rampant he'll die, but as we've seen Tsukune is learning to control it.

For now, lets just call Tsukune... Tsukune. He's a human with vampire blood, if you go by other legends it's how vampires are also made.
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Old 2010-06-01, 16:33   Link #14200
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
The vampire blood is powerful, when it takes control of him the natural instincts of primal vampires causes his berserk state. As to what to call him... well that's hard to say. He possess all the pro's of a vampire and none of the cons. The only con he has is that if the blood run rampant he'll die, but as we've seen Tsukune is learning to control it.

For now, lets just call Tsukune... Tsukune. He's a human with vampire blood, if you go by other legends it's how vampires are also made.
Indeed. What confuses me is that the process is completely different in R+V compared to traditional literature. An example is Anne Rice's "Interview with the Vampire" where transformation required that a vampire take the blood of a human but not kill him, and the human would then have to take blood from the Vampire who bit him. He would then transform completely, a painful process. Here, the process seems much longer, and Tsukune took multiple blood donations from Moka, and we know that Moka already bit him before that. Even then, the end result was not a perfect Vampire, but a Ghoul-like being, unlike in "Interview with the Vampire" where there only needed to be one blood exchange and the job was done. I think something more needs to be done for a full transformation, if such a thing is even possible in the Rosario+Vampire-verse.
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