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Old 2010-09-11, 12:41   Link #17021
Chris38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinso Tsukune View Post
Spoiler for snip:
Unless Ikeda introduces something that changes the way that we would look at Tsukune's transformation ... I agree that currently it seems the most likely way for Tsukune's transformation to go, but since we don't know what is going to happen in the future ... there still might be something introduced, later in the story ... that would change how we had looked on Tsukune's transformation so far ... after all making Tsukune into a Shinso vampire / human hybrid is a little bit ... predictable in my opinion.

I agree that Tsukune drinking Moka's blood isn't good ... in his current state ... and unless his state stabilizes itself somehow, I doubt he is going to drink Moka's blood at all, so you are definitely right about that Shinso Tsukune.

On how Tsukune is going to look like ... well his hair still get's different when he releases his vampire power's and turns into his vampire form.

While I don't know ... what kind of color it represents (since R+V is a black and white type of manga), but judging from the shade he has, Tsukune's hair is a bit lighter then in Tsukune's "normal" form.

So I believe that Tsukune in his "final form" is going to be quite similar to how he looks in his vampire form ... and the main difference is going to be that Tsukune's vampire features are going to be more visible ... like for example Tsukune's front teeth growing into what could be considered as "proper" fangs, his eyes becoming slitted ... simply saying in Tsukune's "final form" his physical appearance is going to be more similar to a vampire, rather then a human.
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Old 2010-09-11, 12:43   Link #17022
Shinso Tsukune
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Mostly Shinso descent, his vampire form or final form i mean.
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Old 2010-09-11, 12:45   Link #17023
tyranuus
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@Shinso Tsukune on the whole blood attraction thing: (Wrote this and then realised there had been responses in the meantime, so to clarify)
Spoiler for Shinso Tsukune Quote:


Actually I always saw that whole scene as evidence that Tsukune's body was slowly becoming more vampiric, especially in line with the 'alternate Tsukune' personality which occasional emerges, and that also includes the vampiric instincts that come with it.

Just after he first turned, Tsukune had strong urges for blood, and Moka's specifically, because going on normal vampire lore, she was his sire and it is fairly common for the blood of the sire to be amongst the most potent immediately available, hence the most desirable, at least until the vampire learns restraint or finds other satiation (when they are first sired, the body is at it's most hungry/needy). As Moka possesses a Shinso bloodline aka even higher potency, this is further amplified; this was simply a very elemental and basic vampiric instinct raising it's head. Desire for an individual also commonly increases the desire for thier blood, so unfortunately Tsukune was kinda stuffed in this regard!
(Kinda how if a normal human is attracted for someone they will want to sleep with them, with a vampire it can result in an increased attraction to thier blood - Moka quite clearly shows signs of this towards Tsukune, even though his blood and taste has now changed from the original human form she liked so much!)

I kinda suspect Tsukune occasionally does still get urges to drink blood, but he has now adapted and become used to this instinct, and controlling it without consciously thinking about doing so, as unlike a normal vampire he doesn't directly need it. Moka after all survived on substitutes for many years. It's quite possible that if he is ever incredibly wounded, this desire for blood will resurface at least for a period until he has had a chance to get his instincts back under control.

Tsukune very much refuses, or doesn't wish to admit he is no longer human however, so symptoms of his growing inhumanity (I dont mean that in a bad way) are things he will likely keep to himself, and only share if completely necessary, or he is force. You could consider them his guilty secret.

Spoiler for Chris38:


I'd probably agree with this to some extent, or at least this will be one of his forms. We don't really know where Ikeda will take Tsukune, its possible he will explore the route of further transformation, but I do think this will become his 'more normal/human' form, if not his final one.
You can perhaps tell I favour a slightly more vampiric normal look for him in the future, simply from previous posts here and there, such as the recent half-asleep 'what if' one where I explicitly mentioned his eyes changing permanently in the possible outcomes, along with his 'power up' (and contact lenses lol).

Simply put, as he becomes more vampiric, stronger, gains more control over himself, and his inner level of Youkai energy grows, it would seem natural his form would alter somewhat to suit, infact it already has started to, to some extent.
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Last edited by tyranuus; 2010-09-11 at 12:57.
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Old 2010-09-11, 13:02   Link #17024
Chris38
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@tyranuus ... well I believe you might be correct about that ... after all Ikeda still has to base Tsukune's development on something.

Well I believe that sooner or later some circumstances will appear that will force Tsukune to admit to his own ... well inhumanity.

Yes ... I agree that we still don't know what is Ikeda's take on what kind of "being" Tsukune is, the only definite thing that we know about Tsukune is that his power's and what kind of being he will be, is going to be related with Shinso vampires, but apart from that ... it's still mostly our speculations, according to what we know about Tsukune's abilities as well as, the developments that he went through, so far.

I also wouldn't mind Tsukune becoming a little more "vampiric" in the future as well, though ... unfortunately it seems a lot of chapter's have to pass, before we will see Tsukune looking like that.

I agree that he slowly gains more "vampiric" traits as he get's stronger, though their is still a lot of time needed, before Tsukune is going to look somewhat similar, to how a vampire looks like .

In fact, if Tsukune's "human" traits wouldn't "survive" through his "vampire transformation", you could say that he is slowly turning into a Shinso vampire, but since Tsukune's "humanity" still survived inside him, to some extent ... represented by Tsukune's immunity to most vampire weaknesses ... I think that he is becoming something that is going to be a "similar type of being " compared to what kind of youkai's Shinso vampires are, but Tsukune is still going to be a little different compared to them.

Last edited by Chris38; 2010-09-11 at 13:28.
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Old 2010-09-11, 13:21   Link #17025
tyranuus
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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Yes ... I agree that we still don't know what is Ikeda's take on what kind of "being" Tsukune is, the only definite thing that we know about Tsukune is that his power's and what kind of being he will be, is going to be related with Shinso vampires, but apart from that ...
Yep, after Hokuto, Alucard and Kahlua, I was also implying theres the possibility that Ikeda may take Tsukune down the 'definately not human' form route,(especially in the final arcs depending on the strength of the final adversaries).

Even if his normal/casual form remains that of a more vampiric human, it's a possibility Tsukune could be forced to sacrifice more of his humanity, simply for him to be able to hold true to himself, and protect and defend the things that really matter to him. Aka 'I think we're gonna need a bigger gun'.

Thats only a possibility of course, I wouldn't be unhappy with Tsukune's final form being a bad-ass vamp-esque, twilight-stomping, Moka-worshipping, young guy haha
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Old 2010-09-11, 13:38   Link #17026
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Originally Posted by tyranuus View Post
Yep, after Hokuto, Alucard and Kahlua, I was also implying theres the possibility that Ikeda may take Tsukune down the 'definately not human' form route,(especially in the final arcs depending on the strength of the final adversaries).

Even if his normal/casual form remains that of a more vampiric human, it's a possibility Tsukune could be forced to sacrifice more of his humanity, simply for him to be able to hold true to himself, and protect and defend the things that really matter to him. Aka 'I think we're gonna need a bigger gun'.

Thats only a possibility of course, I wouldn't be unhappy with Tsukune's final form being a bad-ass vamp-esque, twilight-stomping, Moka-worshipping, young guy haha
Well I wouldn't mind Tsukune becoming a Shinso vampire as well, but since Ikeda is keeping the remnants of Tsukune's humanity for so long ... I think he is doing this for some reason and like I said in my post above, the author is probably going to turn Tsukune into something that is similar to Shinso vampires, but is still different.

Simply saying, at this point ... I think that Ikeda is going to turn Tsukune into a "new" kind of being, that hadn't appeared in the R+V universe so far ... and Tsukune is going to be the only individual that is going to belong to this "race" (at least, until he doesn't ... um, you know, knock someone up )

Of course ... that doesn't stop Tsukune from becoming pretty badass as well , after all he is still going to have the power of a Shinso vampire in his veins, and unless he develops some kind of "weak points " in the future, Tsukune is probably going to be nearly invincible, once he takes control over the full extent of his abilities.
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Old 2010-09-11, 13:48   Link #17027
tyranuus
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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Simply saying, at this point ... I think that Ikeda is going to turn Tsukune into a "new" kind of being, that hadn't appeared in the R+V universe so far ... and Tsukune is going to be the only individual that is going to belong to this "race" (at least, until he doesn't ... um, you know, knock someone up )

And given the obviously-just-imagined-festival/fair-reaction seen in a previous chapter, we KNOW there is of course no female Shinso vampire around who might fall subject to or have any interest in this one day

Still wouldn't preclude him gaining an 'alternate' form though.
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Old 2010-09-11, 13:50   Link #17028
Shinso Tsukune
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I wonder who this "Knocked Up" person is going to be
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Old 2010-09-11, 13:53   Link #17029
Chris38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyranuus View Post
And given the obviously-just-imagined-festival/fair-reaction seen in a previous chapter, we KNOW there is of course no female Shinso vampire around who might fall subject to this one day

Still wouldn't preclude him gaining an 'alternate' form though.
Right, there is NO ONE AROUND Tsukune that could fallow this requirement

On the matter of Tsukune's "alternate form", well I think it depends on what kind of abilities Shinso vampires have ... after all, we still don't know what kind of power's a Shinso vampire has, so i agree that it's a possibility.

@Shinso Tsukune

Well it's still going to take a while, for that person to come around and fallow through the usual procedure involved when you "knock someone up"

Though I think that Tsukune is going to be a little drained afterwords ... after all he is going to need to use up quite a lot of fluids in that particular EVENT. The one fluid that Tsukune is going to use up the most is probably going to be WHITE, but there is going to be quite a lot of a RED fluid involved as well
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Old 2010-09-11, 14:02   Link #17030
Shinso Tsukune
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Thats gonna be more intense then the final battle with Alucard
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Old 2010-09-11, 14:06   Link #17031
Chris38
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Originally Posted by Shinso Tsukune View Post
Thats gonna be more intense then the final battle with Alucard
I definitely agree ... it's going to be the hardest battle that Tsukune is going to have to face in the entire series ... and probably the longest as well, after all that person isn't going to agree with anything else, but being employed under THAT PERSON'S service for all eternity.

Last edited by Chris38; 2010-09-11 at 14:18.
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Old 2010-09-11, 14:45   Link #17032
tyranuus
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Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Though I think that Tsukune is going to be a little drained afterwords ... after all he is going to need to use up quite a lot of fluids in that particular EVENT. The one fluid that Tsukune is going to use up the most is probably going to be WHITE, but there is going to be quite a lot of a RED fluid involved as well


So..... what you're really telling us is that Tsukune is going to attack Moka with the remains of a half eaten refreshers bar, or a bowl of Strawberries and Cream?















Actually...wonder what else they could do with the Strawberries and Cream
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Old 2010-09-11, 14:59   Link #17033
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@tyranuus
LOL ... well, I think you can do a lot of things with Strawberries and Cream provided you have some privacy .. and Inner Moka is generally well known on being able to provide enough privacy for her and Tsukune.

So I think that, using the method described above (Inner Moka kicking everyone else out) Tsukune and Moka are going to have a lot of time to spend on enjoying his Cream and Strawberries toogether ... like for example a Cream and Strawberry covered Inner Moka ... so that Tsukune could enjoy his "snack" better ... and apart from those two things (Strawberries and Cream), she wouldn't be "wearing" anything else

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Old 2010-09-11, 15:28   Link #17034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
Well I wouldn't mind Tsukune becoming a Shinso vampire as well, but since Ikeda is keeping the remnants of Tsukune's humanity for so long ... I think he is doing this for some reason and like I said in my post above, the author is probably going to turn Tsukune into something that is similar to Shinso vampires, but is still different.

Simply saying, at this point ... I think that Ikeda is going to turn Tsukune into a "new" kind of being, that hadn't appeared in the R+V universe so far ... and Tsukune is going to be the only individual that is going to belong to this "race" (at least, until he doesn't ... um, you know, knock someone up )

Of course ... that doesn't stop Tsukune from becoming pretty badass as well , after all he is still going to have the power of a Shinso vampire in his veins, and unless he develops some kind of "weak points " in the future, Tsukune is probably going to be nearly invincible, once he takes control over the full extent of his abilities.
I've been thinking about something. Why would Alucard want to obtain the power of so many different Ayashi? What did he want to achieve? He was already a Shinso Vampire, which is quite likely the strongest Ayashi around, even compared to Dragons and Phoenixes. But why go beyond that? I believe he wanted to become a "transcended" being, one whose power goes beyond those of the Ayashi, a creature that could adapt to virtually any situation. In other words, I believe he wanted to become the kind of Vampire who did not possess any of the traditional weaknesses Vampries have.

However, Alucard was going about it the wrong way. By taking the blood of more and more Ayashi, he was simply becoming more and more a monster, and failed in his intent to become this "transcended" being. However, as you can imagine, Tsukune is unwittingly closer to Alucard's goal than Alucard ever believed. He has already underwent a transformation and displayed none of the Vampire's weaknesses. Tsukune's transformation was not controlled, however, and he nearly turned into a mindless beast himself. Now, however, he's made great progress into controlling his powers and still has room to grow and the potential to achieve it. I'm starting to think that when Tsukune achieves full control, he will reach the level of that "transcendent" being Alucard hoped to become. Alucard was going about it the wrong way. To become the transcendent being, he shouldn't have been growing more demonic powers, but become more human.
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Old 2010-09-11, 15:36   Link #17035
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Spoiler for snip:
I agree that at this point ... there is a strong possibility that Tsukune is going to become something like that ... after all he and Moka are going to face against Alucard at some point in time ... and Tsukune becoming a "transcendent" being is probably going to help them to be able to ... finally put Alucard to rest once and for all.

Not to mention, that you're theory Yoko, is also probably going to apply to the prophecy of Jack Frost, made about Tsukune and Moka , that said that they are going to change the world.

After all what other way of changing the world ... could exist, other then "killing" something that has, so far been famous for being impossible to kill. After all someone as strong as Akasha was still not enough to "kill" Alucard and her choice ... was sealing Alucard from within his body.

So I believe there is a strong possibility that Tsukune is going to become something like that.
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Old 2010-09-11, 15:40   Link #17036
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I agree that at this point ... there is a strong possibility that Tsukune is going to become something like that ... after all he and Moka are going to face against Alucard at some point in time ... and Tsukune becoming a "transcendent" being is probably going to help them to be able to ... finally put Alucard to rest once and for all.

Not to mention, that you're theory Yoko, is also probably going to apply to the prophecy of Jack Frost, made about Tsukune and Moka , that said that they are going to change the world.

So I believe there is a strong possibility that Tsukune is going to become something like that.
I came up with this because I thought that of all the creatures in the world of R+V, humans tend to be the most adaptive. They can survive in virtually any place given they learn how to. On the other hand, you don't have mermaids living outside of water environments for long, or snow maidens living in Equador or Africa. You also wouldn't see vampires living in a palce by the beach given they're weak against water. Humans, however, can live in any of those environments. I think the same could apply if they were to obtain Ayashi powers. They could break the weaknesses that other Ayashi have and go a step beyond them. Tsukune's already begun to undergo that type of transformation.
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Old 2010-09-11, 15:53   Link #17037
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I came up with this because I thought that of all the creatures in the world of R+V, humans tend to be the most adaptive. They can survive in virtually any place given they learn how to. On the other hand, you don't have mermaids living outside of water environments for long, or snow maidens living in Equador or Africa. You also wouldn't see vampires living in a palce by the beach given they're weak against water. Humans, however, can live in any of those environments. I think the same could apply if they were to obtain Ayashi powers. They could break the weaknesses that other Ayashi have and go a step beyond them. Tsukune's already begun to undergo that type of transformation.
That's quite true ... after all monster's wouldn't be going into hiding and trying yo coexist with humans ... if they didn't fear the power's that humans posses.

While their are still organizations like Fairy Tale that try to overthrow the human world ... even they aren't doing something like that in the open.

After all ... individually humans might be weaker then ayashi, but as an entire "race" ... mankind is stronger then youkai's, partially due to the adaptability that humans posses.

On the topic of humans who have acquired ayashi power's ... we have already seen how strong an human / ayashi hybrid could be ... in the case of Kaneshiro Hokuto, who was strong enough that ... even Moka had trouble defeating him ... and I think that Hokuto's "transformation" was far beyond, what Tsukune was able to achieve, with his own "transformation" ... so far.
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Old 2010-09-11, 16:04   Link #17038
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That's quite true ... after all monster's wouldn't be going into hiding and trying yo coexist with humans ... if they didn't fear the power's that humans posses.

While their are still organizations like Fairy Tale that try to overthrow the human world ... even they aren't doing something like that in the open.

After all ... individually humans might be weaker then ayashi, but as an entire "race" ... mankind is stronger then youkai's, partially due to the adaptability that humans posses.

On the topic of humans who have acquired ayashi power's ... we have already seen how strong an human / ayashi hybrid could be ... in the case of Kaneshiro Hokuto, who was strong enough that ... even Moka had trouble defeating him ... and I think that Hokuto's "transformation" was far beyond, what Tsukune was able to achieve, with his own "transformation" ... so far.
I don't think it's just a matter of adaptability, although that could have a lot to do with it, but I think it's also to do with humanity's collective strength. Ayashi do not have an organized national army so to speak. If Ayashi were to enter open warefare with humans, they would fight as individuals. Against one human, they would slaughter the enemy. But put the Ayashi against a platoon or a brigade, and their chances of survival, let alone victory, would drop significantly. At best, the Ayashi would be forced to retreat. Ayashi train to fight on their own, but human military forces train as a unit and the strategies employed, assuming good commanders, don't neccessarily rely on superior individual strength, but intelligent tactics designed to surprise and corner the enemy into submission. Ayashi aren't trained to do that, nor are they trained to defend themselves from such situations.

On the other hand, Ayashi tend to over-rely on their inborn abilities and diffcultly co-operate with other Ayashi species when it comes to warefare. That is a disadvantage for them and could also be why the headmaster designed the Youkai academy. It was not simply to teach Youkai to integrate into human society, but also teach Youkai to integrate with one another regardless of race. So overall, in open warefare, the Ayashi would, imo, be on the losing side.

As for Hokuto, you are correct. He was powerful enough to take on Moka on his own. Moka even needed some help from Tsukune to overtake him. I've mentioned this earlier on, Hokuto has achieved a level of training that reflects what Tsukune could become in the future. Hokuto may well have been closer to becoming a transcended being at the time. The only reason he failed was because he was embracing his demonic nature, and the extended use of his demonic powers was what caused his body to break down. Tsukune might have ended up the same way if the headmaster didn't seal him in time. Tsukune, on the other hand, is training to control his powers while maintaining his humanity. That alone, I believe, makes all the difference, and could well mean Tsukune will go far beyond where Hokuto got to with his training.
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Old 2010-09-11, 16:32   Link #17039
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Spoiler for snip:
Well, thinking about what you said Yoko Takeo ... it might be possible that what the headmaster wants to achieve is trying to create such a transcendental being, that would go beyond what an "Ayashi" is capable of.

That's probably the reason's why, probably due to the Headmaster's manipulations, have started to appear at Youkai Academy and have been coincidentally met with different types of Ayashi, who would ... for different reasons, inject the human they met with their blood ... which could start the humans evolution into a "transcendental" being, like for example, what happened with Hokuto and Tsukune.

After all I believe that Mikogami is quire aware of what humanity is capable off ... so he might be using the capabilities of some individual humans, like for example Tsukune, to draw the world of humans, and the world of ayashi closer to each other ... which, after some time, could lead to a human and youkai coexistence becoming more possible ... or at least make a part of the youkai world, integrate with each other a little more, which would lead them, to have more chances of not losing against humanity.
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Old 2010-09-11, 16:41   Link #17040
Shinso Tsukune
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I believe Tsukune will become something that transcends both Human and Ayashi, something that not even the Dark Lords would expect or even Alucard, thinking of the facts, natural human immunities is something that Tsukune was born with, combined with the most powerful blood in the world, the Shinso blood would make Tsukune the "Ultimate Human/Shinso Hybrid", in fact unknowningly Tsukune has already achieved this status but has yet to reveal its "true colors" meaning when Tsukune's Shinso blood reaches full power and fully awakens, he will transform into his final form or commonly Human/Shinso form, obtaining that status, which a new Tsukune will be born, someone who will be truly capable of saving the world, Moka will also serve as not only Tsukunes destined lover but his big support and helper.
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