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Old 2010-09-13, 10:05   Link #17081
Chris38
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Originally Posted by Shinso Tsukune View Post
Werewolves have speed, while vampires have strength, so there about equal, Ghouls however are more potent than vampires, until we are introduced to some other species that are possibly stronger than vampires than Vampires and Shinso will continue to remain the dominate species.
I think that Ghouls are superior ... only when a vampire is immobilized or weakened by one of it's many weaknesses ... apart from that vampires, in my opinion, have a superiority against Ghouls, since unlike vampires, Ghouls's are only relaying on their instincts and can't think ... because they have no will of their own, unlike a vampire who has a will and the ability to think ... so I think it's clear, who has the advantage, against a Ghoul, a healthy vampire has pretty low chances of loosing

At least that's what I think about this.

As for Tsukune ... well he might become stronger then a typical vampire, but their is still the matter of how efficient he will be, in using all of that power, so taking into consideration that ... I think that Tsukune's strength is going to be equal to Moka's "true" strength ... unless he somehow manages to gain the same amount of combat experience that Moka had gained during her childhood ... which isn't impossible to happen, considering how fast Tsukune's development is undergoing, but I don't he will be able to squish 10 year's of training (after all I believe that vampires are being trained in martial arts, from the time that, they are able to walk on their own) ... into 2 years of school, (probably even less then that) that Tsukune has left until graduation.
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Old 2010-09-13, 10:09   Link #17082
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Originally Posted by Shinso Tsukune View Post
The Human/Shinso Hybrid version of Tsukune will break the boundary between humans and vampires, possibly makin him the strongest, wouldn't you think so?
As I said, he would become a transcendent being, but I don't neccessarily mean that Tsukune will become the strongest being of all time. He will trascend the boundaries that separates humans from ayashi, which would be a matter of adaptability. He will break through the walls created by the weaknesses of Vampires, such as water and silver. It's not a matter of pure power, which is possibly what Alucard believed in.
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Old 2010-09-13, 10:20   Link #17083
Shinso Tsukune
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Transcendent Tsukune > Alucard?
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Old 2010-09-13, 10:26   Link #17084
Chris38
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Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi View Post
As I said, he would become a transcendent being, but I don't neccessarily mean that Tsukune will become the strongest being of all time. He will trascend the boundaries that separates humans from ayashi, which would be a matter of adaptability. He will break through the walls created by the weaknesses of Vampires, such as water and silver. It's not a matter of pure power, which is possibly what Alucard believed in.
I agree, that's similar to what I have been thinking about this as well, simply saying Tsukune isn't going to be stronger then Shinso vampires in a fair fight, since his vampire power's would be equal to that of a Shinso vampires, but his true superiority would emerge if the Shinso vampire in question would be affected by one of it's many weaknesses, which wouldn't be affecting Tsukune ... like for example, the situation with Midou, where Moka was immobilized by the water pouring from the hydrants, and she would probably die, if Tsukune hadn't intertwined.

@Shinso Tsukune

Well, it probably depends on how strong the author is going to make him, if we consider Tsukune going against him, one on one ... then I doubt that he would be able to defeat him, but since we still don't know how strong Tsukune is going to be, when he becomes a transcendent being ... I think he might become stronger then Alucard in the future (after all Alucard would need to be defeated in the future) ... though it's probably still debatable, and currently I don't think we will be able to clarify how strong Tsukune is going to be, when we compare him to Alucard.

After all Tsukune only has Moka's blood as the source of his power's, while Alucard already consumed a lot of different ayashi ... so in terms of raw power, it's pretty clear that Alucard is going to have the upper hand, but their might be ... some other area's, where Tsukune is going to be superior against Alucard, but until Tsukune's "transformation" is finished ... we probably won't be able to gain more details on this particular topic.

Last edited by Chris38; 2010-09-13 at 10:38.
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Old 2010-09-13, 10:42   Link #17085
Shinso Tsukune
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Strategy will counter Alucard's raw power no doubt.
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Old 2010-09-13, 10:53   Link #17086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinso Tsukune View Post
Transcendent Tsukune > Alucard?
In terms of intelligence and cunning, most definitely. Tsukune's already superior to him in that respect, although he still has much to learn. But in terms of pure power, I highly doubt he could top Alucard. Like Chris said, Tsukune would have a better chance if he can exploit Alucard's vampiric weaknesses. Alucard's been reduced to nothing more than a wild beast with immense power and strength. Tsukune may not have power, but he has much more than Alucard does in terms of cunning and does not have any of his Vampire weaknesses.
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Old 2010-09-13, 16:11   Link #17087
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... still Tsukune needs to become stronger, since his current strength is no much against Alucard. Well, let's also not forget that Moka is probably going to besides Tsukune as well, so with her by his side Tsukune has a chance against Alucard as well, after all ... since the source of Tsukune's power is Moka's Shinsso blood, in terms of how much power (youkai energy) they have ... Tsukune and Moka are probably going to be equals, so with Moka by his side ... I don't think that Tsukune is going to need to exploit Alucard's vampire weaknesses.

Not to mention, it was already hinted that ... while the source of their power's is the same ... Tsukune's vampire power's have developed a little differently then Moka's, giving him an advantage in terms of raw power, but at the cost of his speed (he is a little stronger then Moka, but isn't able to execute his attacks or move as quickly as Moka) ... and Moka is the opposite of Tsukune, having and advantage in terms of her speed, but at the cost of the raw power of her attacks (she can execute her attacks and move faster then Tsukune, but the power of her single attack is a little lower then Tsukune's).

So, against such an strong opponent as Alucard, I think that Tsukune and Moka are going to need to support each other, to cover their disadvantages, which naturally implies that Tsukune can't use the weaknesses of a vampire against Alucard, unless he doesn't mind hurting Moka as well, and that is probably something that Tsukune will never agree with.

At least that's what I think about this.
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Old 2010-09-13, 16:58   Link #17088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
... still Tsukune needs to become stronger, since his current strength is no much against Alucard. Well, let's also not forget that Moka is probably going to besides Tsukune as well, so with her by his side Tsukune has a chance against Alucard as well, after all ... since the source of Tsukune's power is Moka's Shinsso blood, in terms of how much power (youkai energy) they have ... Tsukune and Moka are probably going to be equals, so with Moka by his side ... I don't think that Tsukune is going to need to exploit Alucard's vampire weaknesses.
Oh, Tsukune will definitely become stronger. He's still ways from transcending the Vampire weaknesses, and his Shinso blood will need to fully awaken just like Moka's in order for that to happen before anything else. I expect he will be on par with other Shinso Vampires at the very end but certainly not stronger than them. But for him, beating them will be easy as long as he develops his cunning.

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Not to mention, it was already hinted that ... while the source of their power's is the same ... Tsukune's vampire power's have developed a little differently then Moka's, giving him an advantage in terms of raw power, but at the cost of his speed (he is a little stronger then Moka, but isn't able to execute his attacks or move as quickly as Moka) ... and Moka is the opposite of Tsukune, having and advantage in terms of her speed, but at the cost of the raw power of her attacks (she can execute her attacks and move faster then Tsukune, but the power of her single attack is a little lower then Tsukune's).
I don't know where you get that from. Sure, Tsukune could prove to be physically stronger than Moka, but not as fast. However, in the fight against the Siren, he's proven to be gaining that same kind of agility that Moka has, even though Tsukune tends to rely more on his arms to fight rather than his legs. I'd go as far as saying that's a more practical way of fighting, and it's realistically proven to be more effective. But that doesn't neccessarily mean Tsukune is stronger while Moka is faster. They're simply using different fighting styles, and Tsukune's, insofar as I can tell, has more potential for making use of Tsukune's body strength while Moka's style relies on agility and quickness of the limbs. Note the difference between the two. This means that Tsukune's style makes it easier for him to use strength, but Moka needs to be fast to use her style, not that it's a style that makes it easier for her to use her speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris38 View Post
So, against such an strong opponent as Alucard, I think that Tsukune and Moka are going to need to support each other, to cover their disadvantages, which naturally implies that Tsukune can't use the weaknesses of a vampire against Alucard, unless he doesn't mind hurting Moka as well, and that is probably something that Tsukune will never agree with.

At least that's what I think about this.
They will have to make use of a workaround. It's plausible to assume that Moka can act as a diversion while Tsukune could attack from Alucard's blind side with a silver weapon, effectively disabling him and allowing Moka and Tsukune to defeat him afterwards.
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Old 2010-09-13, 17:19   Link #17089
tyranuus
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They will have to make use of a workaround. It's plausible to assume that Moka can act as a diversion while Tsukune could attack from Alucard's blind side with a silver weapon, effectively disabling him and allowing Moka and Tsukune to defeat him afterwards.
Depends really, Moka and Tsukune have a slew of relatively skilled friends and allies, considering that Moka (and Tsukune to some extent) has the potential to reach the same combat level as Akasha in her earlier years (and we've seen how strong she is in her later years), then I think with a little help, the two of them could potentially give Alucard one hell of a time. Yes he may well be a bit stronger, but whereas before 3 put him into submission, this time theres the potential equivalent of 6 after his head.

Obviously Akasha was the physical powerhouse of the Dark Lord trio, which overpowered Alucard the last time, if Moka and Tsukune both get up to her region, and have people surrounding them capable of filling Mikogami/Touhai's role, then they might well have the power to put him down permanently.

Not right now, but with some development time and hard graft and training; you have to remember that whilst Tsukune and Moka are the most powerful out of thier select group, the rest of the bunch are also relative prodigy amongst thier own kind which has been mentioned in passing a few times, then you have allies like Sun, Gin, and whomever they bring with them, and other groups attached to them.

It's a pretty potent group, with a lot of latent potential. Obviously they're no where near the Dark Lords level right now, but they're all still young, given time, they may well become quite a force to be reckoned with (I mean look at Gin and Karate Guy vs Fairy Tale sector 7....an absolute whitewash).
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Old 2010-09-13, 17:42   Link #17090
Shinso Tsukune
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Gin and Haji totally wiped that Fairy Tale branch out, that got me thinkin that Fairy Tale isnt that powerful for a terrorist organization, but what makes them dangerous is that they gained support of the Shuzen family and as for the Miu family they collaborated with Fairy Tale, im still unsure weather or not Miu family will be helping Fairy Tale, especially if Akuha is the Miu family head, like i think she is, either way Fairy Tale is just a sideshow or like a quest for Moka and Tsukune to get stronger to prepare for the main event, the final showdown with Alucard.

As for Tsukune matching Alucard, Strategy wont work without strength, at the moment until we see how powerful Tsukune will become, im estimating he will have power near equal to Alucard's, on the terms of raw power.
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Old 2010-09-13, 20:53   Link #17091
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Hnnn *crosses arms and stares* ... I'm a bit of a loss as to how Tsukune is to somehow gain more power than even a full powered Akasha+Mikogami+Touhou... Even with those three, they barely managed to seal the bugger. One single entity cannot defeat Alucard - it's too unbelievable to have Tsukune take him in one-on-one combat. Even with Moka helping him, chances of the two making it out of that fight alive is pretty slim. This is going to take a massive effort to *destroy* Alucard.
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Old 2010-09-13, 21:30   Link #17092
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I'd agree. Tsukune and Moka have no chance of defeating Alucard by themselves.

The good thing is that the two of them have lots of friends willing to help. Of course you have the rest of the harem, Gin, Haiji, Sun-senpai, and the Wongs. Another thing to mention is that both Kurumu, Mizore, and Sun-senpai just so happen to be of the strongest in generations in their respect races.

Also, who knows how many other powerful friends Tsukune and Moka will accumulate by the time they off Alucard.
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Old 2010-09-13, 22:17   Link #17093
Shinso Tsukune
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I was comparing Moka's and Tsukune's strength to Alucard's around the time they face Alucard along with everyone else, i didnt say those 2 were doing it alone

I guess i was saying it that way cause the story revolves around those 2, but even thats asking to much
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Old 2010-09-13, 22:39   Link #17094
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Well I guess probably later on we'll have another tentacle battle like in s1 with Ruby's master in s1 manga if ever Alucard is brought back by the shinso blood. Probably Alucard will suck all the girls life force along with others.

Makes me wonder probably Fairy Tale is doing something righteous, but the end doesn't justify the means, getting all the most powerful youkai's and breeding them, probably to battle Alucard after all these years, he might get awaken again.
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Old 2010-09-13, 22:52   Link #17095
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I'm pretty sure that if FT got their hands on Alucard, then the end of the human race would be a top priority... well, after they somehow manage to control him without being wiped out as well
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Old 2010-09-13, 23:00   Link #17096
Shinso Tsukune
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Im actually quite interested to see if FT really did get ahold of Alucard's body, something that big is bound to be seen by human eyes which would result in panic, which means the risk of FT moving his body is to high, FT is probably using the Shuzen house ruins were Alucard's body rests as an excavation site, perhaps even moving him could wake him up.
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Old 2010-09-13, 23:06   Link #17097
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Vampires can awaken and be resurrected with a ritual. Guess that is the main plot on FT.

Well if this would be like Tekken where in Jin and Kazuya meeting and having a death match will unleash the power of Azael which is pure evil.

As in Moka unleashing her Shinso blood to Akuha re-waking Alucard.
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Old 2010-09-13, 23:11   Link #17098
Shinso Tsukune
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thad be bad case scenario on our hero's part, besides they still have Fairy Tale to deal with, if that were to happen it would "skip" Fairy Tale and go straight on to Alucard.

Or unless i was right before and Moka would have to be dangerously close to Alucard's corpse, when her Shinso power awakened resulting in the awakening of Alucard, than she can release it all she wants
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Old 2010-09-14, 01:47   Link #17099
Chris38
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You mean ... use their weaknesses against them ... yes using that method ... Tsukune could easily defeat other Shinso vampires easily, though as you have said it, currently Tsukune dosen't have a proper mindset to employ a tactic like that. Not to mention, that I don't think Shinso vampires are that common to find, in my opinion it's pretty rare to find another Shinso vampire easily, so I doubt that would encounter an enemy Shinso vampire in the future ... apart from Alucard of course.

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Spoiler for snip:
Chapter 22 and 23 of the first season during the fight against Midou ... though, now that you mention it Tsuyoshi, it might have just been the difference between Moka's and Tsukune's combat style, but that wouldn't mean that Tsukune and Moka don't have to cooperate with each other, especially if the opponent they are fighting against is pretty strong.

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Well, the only problem I see with that particular tactic ... is that despite Alucard having no sanity anymore, he still got pretty sharp senses (the brief fight between Akasha and Alucard in chapter 33 already signified that), so I don't think that tactic of taking Alucard down is going to be successive
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Old 2010-09-14, 07:20   Link #17100
Shinso Tsukune
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I wonder if a Shinso vampire is immuned to water, silver and crosses and such, Moka might be a Shinso but her father Issa is a normal vampire, but Akasha is a pure blooded Shinso but it wasnt shown weather or not that Akasha has weaknesses. I mean if your think about it Shinso are a more powerful version of a vampire they might have the immunites normal vampires don't, which would make Moka Vampire/Shinso half and half, but not a pure blood which would explain why she can still be hurt by typical vampiric weaknesses.

What do yall think?
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