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Old 2010-05-17, 18:27   Link #81
Heliopolis
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Hello? What do you call Misaki's outbursts, then, if not frustration? Are you honestly thinking that this is a "normal" reaction? Do you honestly think that she LIKES what Usui does? Our "perfect lover" (quote Sol Falling) who we never "really ever be feeling like [...] being a jerk" (also quote)?

"Embarrassment" over "issues of love"? Is that your description of what Usui is doing in the first 20 chapters?

Repeatedly invading someone's private space is extremely rude. Doing so while pinning someone against a wall or a tree is even worse. But no, Usui has to even do all of it with a naked chest. The right term for that is _sexual harassment_ where I come from.

Remember the scene where the falling ladder hurts Misaki's arm? Usui could have easily approached her normally and asked her to let him look at her arm. What does he do instead? Pin her against the wall, lean in and tell her to strip. What do you call that?

Let's call Usui what he is: He's a stalker, repeatedly sexually harassing Misaki, and he loves to tease and embarrass her. And he actively _enjoys_ messing with her and causing her sometimes to even punch and kick him. From Misaki's point of view he even added "indiscriminate sexual predator" to his crime list.

In one word: He's acting like a huge jerk. It's what he DOES which is causing some people to be less than enthusiastic about him. Misaki, who is on the receiving end of his harassment _does not like it_. This is not "embarrassment" over "issues of love", as if this was something she would fundamentally enjoy. It is annoyance over Usui's repeated misdemeanor.

It will take a LONG time before Misaki will develop an increased tolerance for Usui's attacks and before she'll get used to Usui's constant help and support for her, leading her to grow reliant on it (beginning around c20). Also, Usui will tone down some and show more consideration for her. But until the current manga chapters he will never lose his possessive and monopolizing streak.

Does she LIKE what Usui does or not? If you answer "yes" to that, there's something seriously wrong with you. If you answer "no", you're confirming my point.

Because that's what he is. Usui IS a whimsical-spontaneous stalker. There is no real difference between manga and anime in what he does. Only that in ep7, Misaki's reaction (her low-key hurt reply) held bigger impact. But based on what he has done, lord knows that Misaki had every right to say what she did.

Now don't get me wrong: There are redeeming qualities to Usui, too. And without his behaviour, the story wouldn't work the way it does. But I refuse to ignore his uglier traits by simply pretending that he's a flawless guy that everyone would have to love. He isn't, FAR from it in fact. And if you seriously don't know why, reread c47.
Usui is by far no flawless guy. But considering male leads in romance anime/manga (shonen,shoujo or even josei) it's kinda hard to deny that Usui doesn't rank somewhere very high in the top.
To avoid misunderstandings, it's not my intention to glorify Usui nor do I disagree with all of the points you brought forward about his so-called "uglier traits". But my motivation to reply in this discussion (where Sol Falling already brought many points forward in Usui's favor) is the fact that I really disagree with your qualification of Usui being a "jerk".

Since Misaki caught his eye/interest/heart Usui has shown a genuine dedication to only her. He didn't care for other girls before Misaki that's true, but the way he treats (cares for/helps/is attracted to and loves) Misaki he doesn't with any other girl. So this "recurring sexual harrasment of Misaki" by Usui never once crossed the borders of Misaki's integrity. Usui never did something Misaki truly disliked. She always got flustered/blushed and reacted in a "typical tsundere" way. They do have a "dynamic" relationship (storywise established after the rooftop scene in ep1) after which Usui can clearly permit himself ("to continue and expand") this kind of behaviour ("sexual harrasment", teasing&messing with Misaki) without getting more than a "tsundere" (attempt to a) slap/kick and it looks like he doesn't mind that "minor" consequence one bit. He is rather (clearly) amused by it to provoke such reaction from Misaki as long as she is just flustered or a "little" angry.
I mean Misaki is (at core) a "man-hating" high school girl and Usui was kinda the symbol of her "man-hatred" (Usui was introduced as the guy who makes girls cry after relentlessly rejecting them).

She also is by no means a "beloved lab rat in his laboratory" where he likes to watch her struggle. If that was the case than Usui would enjoy seeing Misaki struggle because of his plotted schemes. And if he wanted to their school is the "ultimate playground", Misaki one of the finest "test subjects" and Usui certainly has the brains for it (but fortunately not the charateristics to do it).
He does however like to observe Misaki struggling/overcome the burdens she herself put on her shoulders and (preferably) getting out of that mess by herself. And he only steps in whenever she (really) needs his help (she can't manage to do it by herself).
I'd like to give you some examples from the anime so far to emphasize my point of Usui not being a "jerk" towards Misaki at all but rather the opposite.
Episode two has (a minor) one where Misaki locked down the bellydancing guy who was scaring girls. The guys plotted to "attack" Misaki all at once to get the keys from her as a last resort to free their "comrade", because Usui was at first not interested at all in helping them out (agreeing with Misaki's punishment) but changed his mind very quick when he heared what they wanted to do with Misaki(..) And the latest episode has maybe one of the better examples. When Usui saw how uncomfortable Misaki really was after his (genuine) confession/kiss he even went so far to kiss that guy(..) from the stundent council, all this knowing how Misaki would revert back to her normal self, because seeing Misaki like that made him realise that he went a couple of steps to quick (apparently).
And we saw him when he left the classroom (and Misaki was clearly reverted to her old self) in "a classic anime depiction". A character whose eyes are covered in the shadows of his hair doesn't mean he's happy, but rather the sheer opposite.

That's why I disagree with you calling Usui a "jerk", because besides the fact that he is able to deduct Misaki's behaviour he is willing to go so far for the girl he obviously likes to even resetting his genuine confession by kissing a guy (..) while he is 100% straight (since/fortunately we've never seen Usui in the manga cross-dressing or having some other yaoi-fetishes).
Not to mention what he did for Misaki all along the manga without any other personal gain, except for the fact that he got Misaki's attention this way and her (as a "proud"/self-proclaimed man-hating woman) even opening her heart to him to her own confusion.

Last edited by Heliopolis; 2010-05-18 at 01:04.
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Old 2010-05-17, 22:46   Link #82
LordDemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Hello? What do you call Misaki's outbursts, then, if not frustration? Are you honestly thinking that this is a "normal" reaction? Do you honestly think that she LIKES what Usui does? Our "perfect lover" (quote Sol Falling) who we never "really ever be feeling like [...] being a jerk" (also quote)?
Do you honestly read the manga? Really? Because I have a hard time believing that when you're so adamant about this misconception that Misaki is absolutely disgusted by Usui's behavior. Usually it's Sol who does this whole blowing things out of proportion routine, but it seems you've swapped roles this week, because Misaki NEVER treats Usui's behavior in the exaggerated manner you're asserting she does.

Why are you asking me ridiculous questions, particularly ones I've already answered? Misaki's outbursts, 90% of them at least, are from EMBARRASSMENT. I could cite a surplus of empirical evidence to support this, but this is an anime discussion topic. Quite frankly, your current stance reads like the opinion of an anime only watcher if anything.


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"Embarrassment" over "issues of love"? Is that your description of what Usui is doing in the first 20 chapters? In your world, Misaki's embarrassment is rooted in "love" in the first 20 chapters? O_o
Excuse me? In my world? More like in the world of anyone with some semblance of common sense, basic reading comprehension skills and fundamental concepts of accurate interpretations, maybe. Uh, YES, Misaki's embarrassments and reactions are rooted in love, and the fact that you would claim otherwise, in regards to the first 20 (really? 20?!) chapters shows me you don't understand her character at ALL.

But this is an anime discussion topic, so I'll leave it at that.

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Repeatedly invading someone's private space is extremely rude. Doing so while pinning someone against a wall or a tree is even worse. But no, Usui has to even do all of it with a naked chest. The right term for that is _sexual harassment_ where I come from.
I've never called it anything else. Except in the manga Misaki didn't even MIND that much, not like the anime portrayed it any way. She blushed and kept quiet, and she didn't treat him any differently or even mention the encounter the next time they met.

Apparently being "sexually harassed" by Usui doesn't mean much to Misaki, even in the infancy stages of their relationship.

You act like YOU'RE the one who was harassed, and you're pushing YOUR values onto Misaki's character, which I think we've established you've a poor understanding of her ACTUAL values.

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Remember the scene where the falling ladder hurts Misaki's arm? Usui could have easily approached her normally and asked her to let him look at her arm. What does he do instead? Pin her against the wall, lean in and tell her to strip. What do you call that?
I recall Misaki not making a huge deal out of it, quite unlike you. The typical embarrassed tsundere reaction shouldn't be as deeply read into as you're doing. Not to mention, I never said ANYTHING to suggest Usui WASN'T being particularly aggressive or forceful with Misaki; I never even said he was perfect. I merely said your perception of HIS perception of Misaki is distorted and flawed (get all that?)

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Let's call Usui what he is: He's a stalker, repeatedly sexually harassing Misaki, and he loves to tease and embarrass her. And he actively _enjoys_ messing with her and causing her sometimes to even punch and kick him. From Misaki's point of view he even added "indiscriminate sexual predator" to his crime list.
And as Sol stated, you can count the times Misaki is genuinely upset by this on one hand...or even three fingers rather. If you read the manga like you claim to have done, this would be blatantly obvious to you. What Misaki calls Usui because of these actions doesn't mean anything. Even when she doesn't MIND (to say the least), she'll call him a sexual harassing pervert alien. You're not supposed to take what she SAYS at face value all the time.

Jesus, I repeat, have you REALLY read the manga? It's in Misaki's nature to be dishonest when she's embarrassed and resort to "violence" when she can't say anything.

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In one word: He's acting like a huge jerk. It's what he DOES which is causing some people to be less than enthusiastic about him. Misaki, who is on the receiving end of his harassment _does not like it_. This is not "embarrassment" over "issues of love", as if this was something she would fundamentally enjoy. It is annoyance over Usui's repeated misdemeanor.
Yeah, no. The lack of characterization is what's causing people to be less than enthusiastic about Usui. And yes, this is "embarrassment", and I'll be blunt here, if you've read the manga up to the current release, and want to claim otherwise to me so absolutely, then you don't understand the relationship dynamic between the two AT ALL. Just stick to fansubbing the anime.

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It will take a LONG time before Misaki will develop an increased tolerance for Usui's attacks and before she'll get used to Usui's constant help and support for her, leading her to grow reliant on it (beginning around c20). Also, Usui will tone down some and show more consideration for her. But until the current manga chapters he will never lose his possessive and monopolizing streak.
...

In the best interests of our anime only watchers, I'll simply say "No."



Quote:
Does she LIKE what Usui does or not? If you answer "yes" to that, there's something seriously wrong with you. If you answer "no", you're confirming my point.
Yes, in most cases, she does. Or should I say "It's not like I dislike this". Sound familiar? Yeah, how dare you take a shot at ME when there's something seriously flawed with your fundamental understanding of the way this series works. You're not even close to being on the mark about anything as far as this episode is concerned.

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Because that's what he is. Usui IS a whimsical-spontaneous stalker. There is no real difference between manga and anime in what he does. Only that in ep7, Misaki's reaction (her low-key hurt reply) held bigger impact. But based on what he has done, lord knows that Misaki had every right to say what she did.
Hmmm. Now it seems like you're just being OVERLY defensive of the BAD changes the anime made. Misaki's reaction held bigger impact? Are you KIDDING me? You CAN'T be serious. Yes, because something to the akin of "I'm tired of your teasing me" from the anime is the equivalent to an outright "I hate you!" present in the manga. There's something seriously wrong with you if the former would impact you more than the latter. The whole incident was handled MUCH better in the manga. Period.

The anime failed in this episode. Deal with it. Sol's whining is actually justified this week. Your counter-arguments aren't nearly as sound this week. Let it go and we'll see how next week goes. Respond if you like, but for me to continue would risk manga spoilers, so I'm done for now.
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Old 2010-05-17, 22:54   Link #83
SonOfHeaven
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You guys know there's an manga thread for the show. Use that to discuss the manga. Some of this discussion would fit in the manga thread better.
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Old 2010-05-17, 23:12   Link #84
LordDemon
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Indeed, which is why I've made the proper choice to stay quiet since these little spats started, but like Mentar, there were "too many misleading statements here that I needed to comfort".

I won't do it again, I promise. And it's not like I haven't tried to spark discussion in the manga topic, but it never lasts for more than a day.

If Mentar wants to silence all the doubts I've expressed thus far, perhaps a few strings can be pulled for a more consistent, faster group of people to translate the wonderful manga ^_^
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Old 2010-05-18, 02:09   Link #85
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanon78 View Post
So this "recurring sexual harrasment of Misaki" by Usui never once crossed the borders of Misaki's integrity. Usui never did something Misaki truly disliked. She always got flustered/blushed and reacted in a "typical tsundere" way.
You can seriously write that right after anime episode 7?

"I've had enough. How much do you need to confuse me before you're satisfied? I've had enough of you messing around with me."

Or are you one of those guys who believe in the "When a woman says no, she actually means yes" meme? Please don't tell me you are.

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I mean Misaki is (at core) a "man-hating" high school girl and Usui was kinda the symbol of her "man-hatred" (Usui was introduced as the guy who makes girls cry after relentlessly rejecting them).
And that's why you think his attacks "don't bother her"? While they exemplify what she really hates? You honestly don't see the logical disconnect?

What went through her head against the Miyabigaoka offer? She wanted to protect the girls against the boys and felt she would desert them if she accepted. Yet, you think that Misaki doesn't mind when Usui does it to her?

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That's why I disagree with you calling Usui a "jerk", because besides the fact that he is able to deduct Misaki's behaviour he is willing to go so far for the girl he obviously likes to even resetting his genuine confession by kissing a guy (..) while he is 100% straight (since/fortunately we've never seen Usui in the manga cross-dressing or having some other yaoi-fetishes).
Feel free to disagree, but the fact that he means well for Misaki does not change the fact that his attacks on Misaki are objectively out of line (hence my reason for giving him a jerk label).

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Not to mention what he did for Misaki all along the manga without any other personal gain, except for the fact that he got Misaki's attention this way and her (as a "proud"/self-proclaimed man-hating woman) even opening her heart to him to her own confusion.
There are instances when Usui puts his own petty interests directly over certainly more worthy ones of Misaki (Beachball), so let's strike the absoluteness. He always tries to help/assist her, except in some rare cases in which HIS interests supersede hers.
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Old 2010-05-18, 02:47   Link #86
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
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Originally Posted by LordDemon View Post
Do you honestly read the manga? Really?
Just to put this question to rest: Yes. Multiple times. Sometimes even in the JP original where I had doubts about the scanlations.


Quote:
Excuse me? In my world? More like in the world of anyone with some semblance of common sense, basic reading comprehension skills and fundamental concepts of accurate interpretations, maybe. Uh, YES, Misaki's embarrassments and reactions are rooted in love, and the fact that you would claim otherwise, in regards to the first 20 (really? 20?!) chapters shows me you don't understand her character at ALL.
Okay. If you honestly believe that Misaki is "in love" with him by now, then I can only deduce that you have no idea about girls. Explains your misconceptions, but will make productive discussions difficult.

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I've never called it anything else.
Okay, you agree that it's sexual harassment. In my world, this on its own qualifies for "jerk". If you don't mind, more power to you.

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Except in the manga Misaki didn't even MIND that much, not like the anime portrayed it any way. She blushed and kept quiet, and she didn't treat him any differently or even mention the encounter the next time they met.
They only shifted the scene a bit, Mr. Self-proclaimed Manga Specialist. Here's the equivalent of the manga, chapter 7:

"Don't go overboardwith it! How many more troubles do you want to give me before you're satisfied? Enough! To be teased by Usui... I hate that the most!".

She's yelling this at Usui with a teared-blushed face, and rushes away from him afterwards.

Yup, I'm feeling the love already. She enjoys all this, definitely. She's only a little bit shy.

*shakes head in amazement*

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You act like YOU'RE the one who was harassed, and you're pushing YOUR values onto Misaki's character, which I think we've established you've a poor understanding of her ACTUAL values.
I'm a guy, but I have enough life experience to know what this kind of treatment can mean for women and point this out for those of you who obviously do NOT. You guys are missing half of the story, by only concentrating on the Usui POV and deluding yourselves that it's all just fun and games. However, this limited view misses the Misaki half - HER struggles with it. "She's just an embarrassed Tsundere in Love" doesn't cut it.

And that you accuse ME not to understand Misaki's actual values is hilarious

I'll give you a hint about her values: She's a man-hater on a mission to protect the girls in Seika High from the boys. Not a "please come on to me, I'm a shy tsundere".

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I recall Misaki not making a huge deal out of it, quite unlike you.
I recall Misaki trying to give him a roundhouse kick to the face in this scene. Yup, not a huge deal, I guess.

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And as Sol stated, you can count the times Misaki is genuinely upset by this on one hand...or even three fingers rather. If you read the manga like you claim to have done, this would be blatantly obvious to you. What Misaki calls Usui because of these actions doesn't mean anything. Even when she doesn't MIND (to say the least), she'll call him a sexual harassing pervert alien. You're not supposed to take what she SAYS at face value all the time.
Our main disagreement is that you say that Misaki's negative reactions to Usui's attacks are "rooted in love" and that in your opinion "yes, she's enjoying it". The typical "when a woman says no, she really means yes" logic. It turns Usui into a great hero and reduces Misaki to a funny little girl who just can't be honest with her feelings.

In my opinion, she explicitly does NOT like it. Misaki's complaints about hating to be teased, messed up and confused by Usui's attacks are genuine. She knows and realizes that his intentions aren't bad, and she realizes that he IS helpful to her. But she hates how she can't find peace of mind around him, because of him. She'd much rather have him behave normally. And the story of KWMS on _her_ half is the character development in two directions: Usui's of learning to gradually opening up and treating Misaki more gently and considerately, and Misaki's of developing trust in Usui, learning about him and overcoming her issues with him, undoing the lockdown she placed on her feelings for him.

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Hmmm. Now it seems like you're just being OVERLY defensive of the BAD changes the anime made. Misaki's reaction held bigger impact? Are you KIDDING me? You CAN'T be serious. Yes, because something to the akin of "I'm tired of your teasing me" from the anime is the equivalent to an outright "I hate you!" present in the manga. There's something seriously wrong with you if the former would impact you more than the latter. The whole incident was handled MUCH better in the manga. Period.
Take a chill pill, kiddo. I think that even Sol Falling would agree that Misaki's low-key delivery of her rejection of Usui was more powerful and negative than having her yell it at Usui would. Because it takes the "it's only her momentary embarrassment, she really means the opposite" defense away from you which you deploy all the time. Misaki MEANS what she says. And that's why Usui is reacting so unhappily.
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Old 2010-05-18, 03:08   Link #87
Sol Falling
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C'mon guy. This is the third person now. You're still seriously going on with this 'Usui is a jerk' thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
You can seriously write that right after anime episode 7?

"I've had enough. How much do you need to confuse me before you're satisfied? I've had enough of you messing around with me."

Or are you one of those guys who believe in the "When a woman says no, she actually means yes" meme? Please don't tell me you are.
Why the hell are you bringing up the anime? It's an inaccurate representation of Usui's true character/Misaki's interactions with him. Use the manga version of the events if you're trying to convince somebody who's obviously knows the real version of the story that he's a jerk. If you can't, then you're just proving that the anime failed in its characterization of him.

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And that's why you think his attacks "don't bother her"? While they exemplify what she really hates? You honestly don't see the logical disconnect?

What went through her head against the Miyabigaoka offer? She wanted to protect the girls against the boys and felt she would desert them if she accepted. Yet, you think that Misaki doesn't mind when Usui does it to her?
What Misaki hates is the boys' sloppiness and vulgarity. Usui's flirting with her has nothing in common. No, they don't bother her. Not in the way the other guys do. Nonetheless, Misaki's slowness to consciously warm up to Usui is still grounded in her prejudice against men in general.

Misaki doesn't believe (well, generally/initially) that she needs to be 'protected'. That's why no, she doesn't mind Usui's actions towards her (also why their relationship moves so slowly).

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Feel free to disagree, but the fact that he means well for Misaki does not change the fact that his attacks on Misaki are objectively out of line (hence my reason for giving him a jerk label).
'Attacks'? 'Objectively'? Hilarious joke, dude. Who's supposed to be the judge? We've already got a clear majority from the manga readers here, and if you'll ask any female fan of this series (i.e. the one's who can actually identify with Misaki, your misguided outrage against Usui's 'come-ons' aside), they'll tell you he's one of the kindest and most devoted manga characters they've had the pleasure to read (also hawtest ).

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There are instances when Usui puts his own petty interests directly over certainly more worthy ones of Misaki (Beachball), so let's strike the absoluteness. He always tries to help/assist her, except in some rare cases in which HIS interests supersede hers.
Spoiler for beachball:


edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Okay. If you honestly believe that Misaki is "in love" with him by now, then I can only deduce that you have no idea about girls. Explains your misconceptions, but will make productive discussions difficult.
'Issues of love' refers to the idea of herself being in love, being in a romantic relationship. Time for her feelings to develop aside, that is indeed the root of all of Misaki's frustration.

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Okay, you agree that it's sexual harassment. In my world, this on its own qualifies for "jerk". If you don't mind, more power to you.
I'd only call the omitted (and still minor from Misaki's perspective) skirt-flipping from chapter 7 'sexual harassment'. The rest of Usui's relevant acts can be grouped under 'harassment'. Throwing the 'sexual' in there makes for too strong connotations, and Usui almost certainly never has any intentions to follow through on them.

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They only shifted the scene a bit, Mr. Self-proclaimed Manga Specialist. Here's the equivalent of the manga, chapter 7:

"Don't go overboardwith it! How many more troubles do you want to give me before you're satisfied? Enough! To be teased by Usui... I hate that the most!".

She's yelling this at Usui with a teared-blushed face, and rushes away from him afterwards.

Yup, I'm feeling the love already. She enjoys all this, definitely. She's only a little bit shy.

*shakes head in amazement*
Can you not wrap your head around this? Shifting the conclusion of another scene, onto an in no way equivalent unrelated one, is not 'a bit'. Translation of the outburst dialogue aside, Misaki's reaction had nothing to do with what Usui did in the anime.

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I'm a guy, but I have enough life experience to know what this kind of treatment can mean for women and point this out for those of you who obviously do NOT. You guys are missing half of the story, by only concentrating on the Usui POV and deluding yourselves that it's all just fun and games. However, this limited view misses the Misaki half - HER struggles with it. "She's just an embarrassed Tsundere in Love" doesn't cut it.

And that you accuse ME not to understand Misaki's actual values is hilarious

I'll give you a hint about her values: She's a man-hater on a mission to protect the girls in Seika High from the boys. Not a "please come on to me, I'm a shy tsundere".
I find it hilarious that you take your projections of Misaki's feelings (in no way supported by her actual behaviour in the manga) to mean that we are missing out on her half of the story. Yes, Misaki struggles with what it means to be in love, but no, has she ever resented it. Whatever you say (your highly exaggerated version of) Usui's treatment 'can mean' for women--Misaki obviously isn't those women. If she were, he would clearly never rile her up that way.

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I recall Misaki trying to give him a roundhouse kick to the face in this scene. Yup, not a huge deal, I guess.
What's a roundhouse kick to Usui? Misaki knows what can really hurt him (or rather she knows what can't; he jumped off a freakin' roof, after all). Hell, as I recall, she was even smiling in that scene--and you're trying to say she really hated it?

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Our main disagreement is that you say that Misaki's negative reactions to Usui's attacks are "rooted in love" and that in your opinion "yes, she's enjoying it". The typical "when a woman says no, she really means yes" logic. It turns Usui into a great hero and reduces Misaki to a funny little girl who just can't be honest with her feelings.

In my opinion, she explicitly does NOT like it. Misaki's complaints about hating to be teased, messed up and confused by Usui's attacks are genuine. She knows and realizes that his intentions aren't bad, and she realizes that he IS helpful to her. But she hates how she can't find peace of mind around him, because of him. She'd much rather have him behave normally. And the story of KWMS on _her_ half is the character development in two directions: Usui's of learning to gradually opening up and treating Misaki more gently and considerately, and Misaki's of developing trust in Usui, learning about him and overcoming her issues with him, undoing the lockdown she placed on her feelings for him.
Yeah, she 'hates' it. We can understand it makes her uncomfortable, and sometimes distracts her from more important things. But you can't seriously tell me she regrets it overall, and that's what's important for her real feelings on the matter. Usui is the 'perfect lover' who is keenly aware and protective of Misaki's feelings as a woman. It's Misaki's unfamiliarity with 'being a woman' that causes the issues (lol, pretty much all of them, as far as Usui and Misaki's relationship is concerned), and as we all know from her shopping sidestory with Aoi/episode 4, it's not like she doesn't want to be one. You are taking things much too far if you honestly believe Misaki would rather have him 'behave normally'--if Usui didn't provoke Misaki to chase him, then why would she ever keep running after him?

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Take a chill pill, kiddo. I think that even Sol Falling would agree that Misaki's low-key delivery of her rejection of Usui was more powerful and negative than having her yell it at Usui would. Because it takes the "it's only her momentary embarrassment, she really means the opposite" defense away from you which you deploy all the time. Misaki MEANS what she says. And that's why Usui is reacting so unhappily.
The point here is that in the manga, Misaki doesn't mean what she says. That's a pretty huge screwup, huh? As for the actual words themselves, you've given the impression above that the manga and anime dialogue are basically equivalent. If that isn't actually correct, then no, I quite agree that the manga's forceful emphasis (leading Usui to react visibly negatively to the idea of Misaki 'hating him' for the next two dozen or so chapters--i.e. 'traumatized', not 'unhappy') is more powerful.
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HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-05-18 at 04:27.
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Old 2010-05-18, 04:45   Link #88
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
C'mon guy. This is the third person now. You're still seriously going on with this delusional 'Usui is a jerk' thing?
Fine. Is "Usui acts like a jerk" more acceptable to your ears? The point I'm insisting on is that Misaki has every right to consider him one, and as a neutral observer consider his conduct disturbing too. Enjoyable, but objectively unacceptable. Hence jerk. If you disagree with that, more power to you.

Besides, wasn't you the one who started this argument by claiming that no reader should NOT like Usui, and that the anime failed because viewers didn't like him all that much?

Quote:
Why the hell are you bringing up the anime? It's an inaccurate representation of Usui's character/Misaki's interactions with him as they are supposed to be.
Because this is the anime thread. And only because you claim the representation is "inaccurate" doesn't make it so. There are occasional minor changes, but in MY opinion the representation overall is genuine.

Quote:
Use the manga version of the events if you're trying to convince somebody who's obviously knows the real version of the story that he's a jerk. If you can't, then you're just proving that the anime failed in its characterization of him.
You're not making any sense. How does any failure to convince someone of my viewpoint relate to the anime failing in its representation? Besides, I'm not trying to change you guys' mind. I'm explaining why I disagree with your initial criticism.

Quote:
What Misaki hates is the boys' sloppiness and vulgarity. Usui's flirting with her has nothing in common. No, they don't bother her.
"Don't go overboardwith it! How many more troubles do you want to give me before you're satisfied? Enough! To be teased by Usui... I hate that the most!". (Manga)

"I've had enough. How much do you need to confuse me before you're satisfied? I've had enough of you messing around with me." (Anime)

So you say she's lying? I don't think so.

Quote:
Not in the way the other guys do. Nonetheless, Misaki's slowness to consciously warm up to Usui is still grounded in her prejudice against men in general.
It excarbates the problem, but in my opinion it's not the exclusive reason.

Quote:
Misaki doesn't believe (well, generally/initially) that she needs to be 'protected'. That's why no, she doesn't mind Usui's actions towards her (also why their relationship moves so slowly).
This is not about protection. She CAN take care of herself. The repeated key quote from Misaki is "Usui is so hard to handle". Yes, she manages to do so, but it requires effort. Effort she'd prefer not to put in, in my opinion. I have no clue why you're trying to deny this obvious truth.

Quote:
'Attacks'? 'Objectively'? Hilarious joke, dude. Who's supposed to be the judge, you?
I'd like to say "common decency", but obviously we have differing opinions on that. So let me retreat to the baseline. If Misaki would indict Usui for pinning her against a wall with a naked chest, he'd get into trouble.

Quote:
We've already got a clear majority from the manga readers here, and if you'll ask any female fan of this series (i.e. the one's who can actually identify with Misaki, your misguided outrage against Usui's 'come-ons' aside), they'll tell you he's one of the kindest and most devoted manga characters they've ever seen.
You and your absolutist statements ... I'm a manga-reader too, and I consider Usui a jerk, something which you claimed could never happen. Stop talking about "all" people as if you knew what they think. You don't.

How people react to KWMS depends on alot of things, particularly on your life experiences. One of my friends I'm very close with is a particularly pretty young woman who had to struggle alot with unwelcome attention and a violent marriage, so I might be more sensitized to aggressive behavior and sexual harassment than the average male reader. She's an avid fan of Misaki, and she strongly sympathizes with her struggles (and admires her spunky resistance). From her point of view, she's enjoying how Misaki gradually CHANGES Usui.

YOUR point of view is blatant unreflected Usui fanboyism. You belittle Misaki's struggling as mere dishonesty and unability to express her love-born embarrassment by other means than yelling. "She likes it, after all". So you reduce the story development to Hero Usui working hard (all for Misaki's sake, of course) to overcome her hatred of men. But this is ONE perspective only.

What _I_ like about this show is that the setup is asymmetrical. I try to see the point of view of BOTH characters. There's a mutual attraction between them which is undeniable. But simply denying Misaki's ordeal and her fundamental problems with Usui means neglecting half of the show.
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Old 2010-05-18, 05:23   Link #89
Mentar
Sore wa himitsu desu!
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
'Issues of love' refers to the idea of herself being in love, being in a romantic relationship. Time for her feelings to develop aside, that is indeed the root of all of Misaki's frustration.
In the first 20 chapters there's only some kind of mutual attraction, and I agree with you that this is the root of Misaki's confusion. But "love" it ain't at that point of time. Not REMOTELY.

Quote:
I'd only call the omitted (and still minor from Misaki's perspective) skirt-flipping from chapter 7 'sexual harassment'. The rest of Usui's relevant acts can be grouped under 'harassment'. Throwing the 'sexual' in there makes for too strong connotations, and Usui almost certainly never has any intentions to follow through on them.
Except when he does (see: stolen kiss)

We can agree that his pheromone moments cause turmoil within Misaki, right? And I can assure you that doing what Usui did in anime episode 7 can easily get people thrown out of school in Asia.

But yes, Usui _usually_ stops inches before the red line. He doesn't need to go further.

Quote:
Can you not wrap your head around this? Shifting the conclusion of another scene, onto an in no way equivalent unrelated one, is not 'a bit'. Translation of the outburst dialogue aside, Misaki's reaction had nothing to do with what Usui did in the anime.
It didn't have anything in particular to do with what happened in the manga version in c7 either. It was a GENERAL yell of frustration about Usui's GENERAL behavior. It was no explosion born out of a different relevant context.

Quote:
I find it hilarious that you take your projections of Misaki's feelings (in no way supported by her actual behaviour in the manga) to mean that we are missing out on her half of the story.
Excuse me. The actual behavior of hers in the manga supports my interpretation 100%, I take it at face value. She yells at him, she kicks him, she complains to him. It is YOU who claims that "she doesn't mean it". YOU are arguing against what's depicted, not me.

Quote:
Yeah, she 'hates' it. We can understand it makes her uncomfortable, and sometimes distracts her from more important things. But you can't seriously tell me she regrets it overall, and that's what's important for her real feelings on the matter.
Spoiler:


Spoiler:


I guess that our ideas of what a "perfect lover" is differ very much. Perfect lovers don't consciously cause discomfort to the loved ones without some very good reason. Usui unsettles Misaki on purpose for his own enjoyment only. If his goal was to get together with Misaki (which it explicitly isn't), there would be lots of ways to do that WITHOUT messing with her.

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You are taking things much too far if you honestly believe Misaki would rather have him 'behave normally'--if Usui didn't provoke Misaki to chase him, then why would she ever keep running after him?
She doesn't. Not in the early chapters.

Quote:
The point here is that in the manga, Misaki doesn't mean what she says. That's a pretty huge screwup, huh?


(Without words)
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Old 2010-05-18, 05:24   Link #90
yura`
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Having read the manga as well, I actually feel that this is a rather decent adaptation, even if the anime takes liberty with its source, i.e. arrangement of events and 'skipping' around of the source material. I've long ago learnt not to be too nit-picky with manga to anime adaptations, because if I do, I will always undoubtedly end up disappointed. As long as the core elements still remain in the adaptation, then I won't have too many complaints. (However I won't say the same for some obvious massively-bungled adaptations that bear no resemblance to their original counterpart!)

Having said that, the anime adaptation has its own merits. I still enjoy what the anime has to offer, though it may not completely be the same as the manga.

I'm not trying to stir up any flames (haha); this is just my personal opinion. One more thing, just as a comparison's sake: I think one recent shoujo adaptation that would have benefited from a better anime arrangement would have been Kimi ni Todoke - even though it was almost exactly panel-by-panel a faithful adaptation from the manga, the anime was excruciating slow, in spite of the beautiful storyline.
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Old 2010-05-18, 12:08   Link #91
Heliopolis
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Let me first start by saying that I sincerely apologize to everyone who visits this KWMS anime thread and "despises" being confronted with "manga spoilers". I'll try to keep the manga spoilers to a bare minimum and suggest to just skim this post if you can't stand spoilers in general. I do find the discussion with Mentar (Sol Falling and LordDemon) too interesting to just let it go. And I also believe that the content of the discussion (especially after "the way" episode 7 ended) belongs in the anime thread and not necessarily only in the manga thread. So I think that after episode 7 anime-only viewers (if they feel like it) can also give their point of view without the need of manga spoilers/knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
You can seriously write that right after anime episode 7? "I've had enough. How much do you need to confuse me before you're satisfied? I've had enough of you messing around with me."
Well it's nice that you choose that particular incident to illustrate that Usui crosses the boundaries of Misaki's integrity/"sexual harrasment" (with a fine manga snapshot).
If viewed "sec" like that with this manga snapshot/scene as an excellent reference it looks a lot (to say the least) like sexual harrasment. But with your manga knowledge of KWMS and even just the string of "events" in the anime leading to that scene it's, like someone posted before in this thread, Usui bringing Misaki down to earth from her trip to the clouds after the ladies only cosplay event in the maid cafe. She was (seriously) "delusional" thinking how nice it was cosplaying as a boy that she even thought for a second that "she really was a guy" with all that kind of special/new kind of attention she got from the customer girls at the maid cafe.
All Usui did was (and we as manga readers and anime-only viewers know this) bring Misaki "back to earth". Showing her at that moment that she was having illusions and she is just a girl. The guy "only pinned her down" to make this point across and he did not touch, fondle or grope her.
Misaki knew (and so did manga readers and anime-only viewers to my humble opinion) during that brief moment of being "pinned down" that she was absolutely in no danger whatsoever and she could literally break free any moment she wanted to by her own force and by Usui's consent. I think she was being "showed" as "cowering"/"frightened" not so much of the implicated sexual harassment, but because she was still having issues with who Usui really is (questioning what does he mean to her?) in the "whirlpool" of thoughts based on his recent confession/kiss/jump of the roof to protect her secret/relaxed state of mind and afterwards the "Yukimura-reset".
This confused Misaki that much combined with the fact that he was right in bringing her down to earth and "forcefully" pulling her out of her nice delusions pisses Misaki that much off that she is indeed much angrier at him than her usual " I hate you/tsundere reaction". Don't forget that in this stage Misaki is still somewhat competitve (like hikari "vs" kei mindset from SA) and thus reluctant to admit Usui is right when it means she is "in the wrong".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Feel free to disagree, but the fact that he means well for Misaki does not change the fact that his attacks on Misaki are objectively out of line (hence my reason for giving him a jerk label). There are instances when Usui puts his own petty interests directly over certainly more worthy ones of Misaki (Beachball), so let's strike the absoluteness. He always tries to help/assist her, except in some rare cases in which HIS interests supersede hers.
Spoiler for don't read if you DISLIKE spoilers:


I mean the guy helps her out only/whenever she needs it. Be it at school, against harassment ("idiot three", "rich kids" and more like you see in the manga) from others towards Misaki or helping out part-time at the maid cafe in a way he doesn't really interfere with Misaki. in the He always leaves her free to do and decide whatever she wants but he just watches over her from the background. He never imposed his views on her but is rather a supporting character (it's only because others want to notice him, he never actually tries to steal the spotlight intentionally when he is with Misaki). Yeah he does tease her/"messes around with her" but it is in a playful dynamic way and whenever he sees that Misaki is more angry/hurt than her usual "I hate you/tsundere reaction" to his antics you see that he genuinely cares about it/is upset. And like I said before Misaki is the only girl that Usui treats like that. He doesn't even pay attention to other girls (who'd "love" to be treated like that by him). Remember the scene when he met those two girls on the street at night when he was worrying over Misaki ("assault in the maid cafe" episode).
That's why I find it "hard to understand"/see how Usui is a jerk in your opinion, even when he acts "seemingly jerkish" it always is in the benefit for Misaki. As anime-only viewers and manga readers we see and know it a lot sooner than Misaki gradually realizes after some time in the manga like you said yourself in one of your comments on the previous page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Or are you one of those guys who believe in the "When a woman says no, she actually means yes" meme? Please don't tell me you are.
I sincerely hope that you don't need me to seriously answer this question...?

Last edited by Heliopolis; 2010-05-18 at 12:45.
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Old 2010-05-18, 12:54   Link #92
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanon78 View Post
Well it's nice that you choose that particular incident to illustrate that Usui crosses the boundaries of Misaki's integrity/"sexual harrasment" (with a fine manga snapshot). If viewed "sec" like that with this manga snapshot as excellent example it looks a lot (to say the least) like sexual harrasment.
No. It's not about sexual harassment in the single instant, but his constant attacks on her in general. And to pick up your seemingly rhetorical question from the end whether or not I believe you to be someone who thinks along the lines of "A woman who says no actually means yes" - the question was and is absolutely serious.

As the screenshot illustrates, she says NO. She says STOP IT. She says I HATE IT. And yet, you insisted that Usui "Usui never once crossed the borders of Misaki's integrity". Which this screenshot disproves. Unless you claim that Misaki is lying. There is no alternative. Pick your poison.

Quote:
But with your manga knowledge of KWMS and even just the string of "events" in the anime leading to that scene it's, like someone posted before in this thread, Usui bringing Misaki down to earth from her trip to the clouds after the ladies only cosplay event in the maid cafe.
No. In the manga this scene was taken from another context - as you can see she's wearing her maid uniform. Again, the context is totally irrelevant for Misaki's complaint. And the context does NOT justify Usui's attacks whatsoever. The girl tells you to STOP IT, you stop. End of story.

Quote:
Spoiler for don't read if you DISLIKE spoilers:


You remember wrong.

Spoiler:

Quote:
[...]he doesn't really interfere with Misaki in the sense that he leaves her free to do and decide whatever she wants but he just watches over her from the background. He never imposed his views on her but is rather a supporting character (it's only because others want to notice him, he never actually tries to steal the spotlight intentionally when he is with Misaki).
Wrong, see above. Strike never, write "usually doesn't". And the exceptions are when HIS interests conflict with hers.

Quote:
That's why I find it "hard to understand"/see how Usui is a jerk in your opinion when even if he acts "seemingly jerkish" it always is in the benefit for Misaki. As anime-only viewers and manga readers we see and know it a lot sooner than Misaki gradually realizes after some time in the manga like you said yourself in one of your previous comments in the previous page.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. His constant teasing of Misaki serves NO purpose _for_ Misaki, it's primarily for HIS enjoyment. And the fact that he _also_ helps her doesn't change this fact, nor does it justify his actions. For a honest and balanced assessment you cannot simply choose to apply Alzheimer Light to that.

Seriously, I'd want you to stop treating Misaki as an idiot who doesn't really mean what she says when she wants Usui to cut it out. And to recognize that Usui isn't the flawless glowing-light being that you guys want to describe him. Some balance would be very much appreciated.
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Old 2010-05-18, 14:02   Link #93
Heliopolis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And to pick up your seemingly rhetorical question from the end whether or not I believe you to be someone who thinks along the lines of "A woman who says no actually means yes" - the question was and is absolutely serious.
If so than all I can say is that I'm truly dissapointed and I leave it up to your perception what you want the answer to be.

Quote:
As the screenshot illustrates, she says NO. She says STOP IT. She says I HATE IT. And yet, you insisted that Usui "Usui never once crossed the borders of Misaki's integrity". Which this screenshot disproves. Unless you claim that Misaki is lying. There is no alternative. Pick your poison.
No I never claimed that Misaki is/was lying but to say that Usui "crossed the borders of Misaki's integrity" instead of only being jerk now is too much for me. When she told him to stop and said to him that she hates it did Usui (forcefully) continue? No he stopped as soon as Misaki told him to. And like I asked you before when did he ever touch Misaki in a (persistently) fondling and/or groping way in a situation like this?

Quote:
No. In the manga this scene was taken from another context - as you can see she's wearing her maid uniform. Again, the context is totally irrelevant for Misaki's complaint. And the context does NOT justify Usui's attacks whatsoever. The girl tells you to STOP IT, you stop. End of story
.

Ofcourse if the girl tells you to stop you do so. But can you give me one example where Usui forcefully pursued his "enjoyement" against Misaki's consent? Since it seems I have a case of Alzheimer light maybe you can refresh my mind?

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Wrong, see above. Strike never, write "usually doesn't". And the exceptions are when HIS interests conflict with hers.
I have to agree, you're absolutely right. It is indeed "usually doesn't" and not "doesn't really".

Quote:
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. His constant teasing of Misaki serves NO purpose _for_ Misaki, it's primarily for HIS enjoyment. And the fact that he _also_ helps her doesn't change this fact, nor does it justify his actions. For a honest and balanced assessment you cannot simply choose to apply Alzheimer Light to that.

Seriously, I'd want you to stop treating Misaki as an idiot who doesn't really mean what she says when she wants Usui to cut it out. And to recognize that Usui isn't the flawless glowing-light being that you guys want to describe him. Some balance would be very much appreciated.
well it's true that I misunderstood what you mentioned with the beachball spoiler. But my first post in this discussion I already said that Usui is by far not a flawless guy and that it was never my intention to "glorify" Usui. I only disagree with "labeling Usui as a jerk". And to say that his "constant teasing" of Misaki only serves for his own enjoyement comes across to me like Misaki is some sort of plaything for Usui, which she surely isn't. He (already) genuinely cares for her at this stage (episode 7).
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Old 2010-05-18, 17:24   Link #94
LordDemon
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It kills me that the manga I anticipate more than any other series has such agonizing waits in between new chapter releases. My Japanese isn't quite sophisticated enough to read the raws smoothly.

Breathing life into this topic and hoping for somebody or something to breath life into Potato Otaku.
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Old 2010-05-18, 22:18   Link #95
hoofy
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I just rely on the summaries by kind souls in the meantime.

Btw, have you seen the recent side story - gender bent chars so we have a butler cafe

Last edited by hoofy; 2010-05-19 at 06:54.
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Old 2010-05-18, 23:55   Link #96
Sol Falling
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Skipped/glazed over some responses for space and to avoid discussing future manga chapters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
"Don't go overboardwith it! How many more troubles do you want to give me before you're satisfied? Enough! To be teased by Usui... I hate that the most!". (Manga)

"I've had enough. How much do you need to confuse me before you're satisfied? I've had enough of you messing around with me." (Anime)

So you say she's lying? I don't think so.
The manga scene is immediately followed by a shot of Misaki regretting her outburst. 'Lying'? No. Carried away by a moment's insecurity and emotion and saying something she doesn't really mean? Yes.

Quote:
This is not about protection. She CAN take care of herself. The repeated key quote from Misaki is "Usui is so hard to handle". Yes, she manages to do so, but it requires effort. Effort she'd prefer not to put in, in my opinion. I have no clue why you're trying to deny this obvious truth.
Where do you get the 'rather not put in' bit? For that matter though, Usui isn't around enough to actually require effort to handle until after approximately the first 10 chapters. I.e. for the timeframe of this particular incident, 'effort' has nothing to do with Misaki and Usui's relationship.

Quote:
I'd like to say "common decency", but obviously we have differing opinions on that. So let me retreat to the baseline. If Misaki would indict Usui for pinning her against a wall with a naked chest, he'd get into trouble.
As kanon78 mentions, Usui doesn't even touch her. Misaki is free to move away at any moment, but in fact Usui leaves before she even has a chance to (this is more evident in the manga).

See below for the indictment thing.

Quote:
You and your absolutist statements ... I'm a manga-reader too, and I consider Usui a jerk, something which you claimed could never happen. Stop talking about "all" people as if you knew what they think. You don't.

How people react to KWMS depends on alot of things, particularly on your life experiences. One of my friends I'm very close with is a particularly pretty young woman who had to struggle alot with unwelcome attention and a violent marriage, so I might be more sensitized to aggressive behavior and sexual harassment than the average male reader. She's an avid fan of Misaki, and she strongly sympathizes with her struggles (and admires her spunky resistance). From her point of view, she's enjoying how Misaki gradually CHANGES Usui.

YOUR point of view is blatant unreflected Usui fanboyism. You belittle Misaki's struggling as mere dishonesty and unability to express her love-born embarrassment by other means than yelling. "She likes it, after all". So you reduce the story development to Hero Usui working hard (all for Misaki's sake, of course) to overcome her hatred of men. But this is ONE perspective only.

What _I_ like about this show is that the setup is asymmetrical. I try to see the point of view of BOTH characters. There's a mutual attraction between them which is undeniable. But simply denying Misaki's ordeal and her fundamental problems with Usui means neglecting half of the show.
The basis of my 'absolutist' statements lies in obvious authoral intention, something echoed by another poster, and seemingly understood by a majority of the fanbase: Usui is not a jerk. The manga takes great care with every possibly negative action on the part of Usui to provide a clarifying motivation. It is your own loss if you are missing them. These can be almost universally grouped under a) protecting Misaki's self-awareness as a woman or b) protecting Misaki's physical well-being.

Your friend's experience with violent marriage is regrettable. However, violent or aggressive is hardly Usui. You know full well that as for their relationship, Usui would never push Misaki into anything. Hell, this is the entire point of the Yukimura kiss from ch. 5/ep. 7, which establishes early on just how considerate Usui is of Misaki's comfort and readiness. Yes, Misaki might change Usui, but it's not in making him less of a (so-called) jerk to women--unless you want to count becoming interested in one in the first place.

Telling me I'm 'neglecting' half of the story simply because I don't buy into your projections of Misaki's suffering is highly disingenuous. What 'fundamental problems' are you talking about? Show me this supposed development. Misaki's 'ordeal' is in how she slowly comes to learn what it means to be in love, to trust and depend on someone, and to be a woman. To these ends, all the 'struggle' and 'effort' she puts in is something positive, heartwarming even (see the chapters where she actually mentions it), as something which signifies the growth in knowledge and experience of her self as a person. Misaki and Usui's bickering is shown as a good thing, all the way through to the latest chapter of the manga. You're saying Usui is supposed to develop away from it? From the obvious intentions of this story: not. likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Except when he does (see: stolen kiss)
Isn't this why it's better placed at the very start of the series? Nonetheless though, understandably I think kisses can have different degrees of value to different people. Particularly as for Usui and Misaki themselves, I don't think there was any element of force percieved in that incident. For both Usui and Misaki, their motivations/reactions would only be extensions of their feelings on the confession itself.

Quote:
We can agree that his pheromone moments cause turmoil within Misaki, right? And I can assure you that doing what Usui did in anime episode 7 can easily get people thrown out of school in Asia.

But yes, Usui _usually_ stops inches before the red line. He doesn't need to go further.
As far as the 'school' thing goes, might I remind you that this is Seika? Usui's action (stripping to make a point, then promply leaving) is hardly worse than some of the stuff we've seen the other boy's do, on the freakin' campus, at that. You might be correct as to 'Asia', but for this story, those puritanical standards clearly aren't the baseline.

Quote:
It didn't have anything in particular to do with what happened in the manga version in c7 either. It was a GENERAL yell of frustration about Usui's GENERAL behavior. It was no explosion born out of a different relevant context.
False. Let me spell it out. Ch. 7's outburst was grounded in Misaki's doubt's and uncertainties after the reset kiss from chapter 5. She was reacting against Usui's continued implications that he liked her and that they had 'that' sort of relationship. Ep. 7's outburst, alternatively, had Misaki reacting against Usui telling her she wasn't a man (true, btw; at least insofar as it is a key developmental point for Misaki). Nothing to do with their relationship; no trigger as in the original sequence either. Furthermore, as has been noted several times now, in ch. 7's version Misaki immediately regrets her hasty and emotional outburst. The scenarios are clearly different.

Quote:
Excuse me. The actual behavior of hers in the manga supports my interpretation 100%, I take it at face value. She yells at him, she kicks him, she complains to him. It is YOU who claims that "she doesn't mean it". YOU are arguing against what's depicted, not me.

Spoiler:
Look, guy. Misaki yells 'What are you doing?', not 'Please stop doing it' :P. When she kicks or punches at Usui, she's stepping up to a challenge, not trying to hurt him. Actual complaints? List some (no manga spoilers though). When have I ever said anything even approaching 'she doesn't mean it' (--aside from the outburst from ch. 7, which the manga makes a point of showing she indeeed doesn't)? It's you who are taking Misaki's spirited combativeness/competition (hey, weren't you telling me back then, that's what Misaki's character is all about?) to be 'effort' she'd rather not deal with.

Spoiler:


Quote:
I guess that our ideas of what a "perfect lover" is differ very much. Perfect lovers don't consciously cause discomfort to the loved ones without some very good reason. Usui unsettles Misaki on purpose for his own enjoyment only. If his goal was to get together with Misaki (which it explicitly isn't), there would be lots of ways to do that WITHOUT messing with her.
Discomfort is a stimulus. It causes people to grow. Sounds like your version of a 'perfect lover' is someone who (metaphorically) keeps their love trapped in a gilded cage with all their favourite things forever. Hell no is Usui's harassment about self-enjoyment. Do you even understand? Without acclimating Misaki to the idea of herself as a woman, she'd never experience the good fortune of falling in love. Why does Usui keep provoking Misaki? It's for the very same reason why he stops to help her: it's all to help her keep running forward with all her might.

Quote:
She doesn't. Not in the early chapters.
Dude, just go read the first chapter again. Or alternatively watch the first episode. The relevant scene was one of the single aspects of that episode I actually liked.
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Seasonal enjoyment ratings:
HappinessCharge Precure 100/5 :: Stardust Crusaders 80/5 :: Mushishi S2 90/5 :: Akuma no Riddle: 15/5 :: Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san 24/5 :: GochiUsa 33/5 :: Soul Eater NOT! 18/5 :: Love Live! S2 80/5
Summer: Sailor Moon Crystal 24/5 :: Hanayamata 30/5 :: Locodol 30/5 :: Yama no Susume 100/5 :: Momo Kyun Sword 11/5
God-tier yuri oneshot mangaka: Minase Ruruu
Yuri Precure otaku manga: Shinozaki-san ki wo ota shika ni
Awesome shoujo manga: Last Game
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Old 2010-05-19, 02:48   Link #97
CrowKenobi
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: there... just there.
After reading this back and forth about Usui, I can only gleam that he's a Jerk with a Heart of Gold (emphasis on the Jerk part AT THIS MOMENT IN THE ANIME), but I still want to know what makes him tick...

EDIT: Reading about how the various manga chapters should fit into the anime somehow reminds me of the theme of the first episode of "Seitokai no Ichizon" for some reason...
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Old 2010-05-19, 03:31   Link #98
Mentar
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Join Date: Nov 2003
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To comply with xris, I'll stick to the anime, and only mention comparisons to the manga for those parts which have already been handled in the anime version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
The manga scene is immediately followed by a shot of Misaki regretting her outburst. 'Lying'? No. Carried away by a moment's insecurity and emotion and saying something she doesn't really mean? Yes.
Simply not true. The scene is immediately followed by a shot of Misaki leaving through a door, and then stopping to lean against the closed door, still flushed. Usui is shown to be dejected. Then, we see a panel with Misaki strutting her stuff and obviously carrying on. However, her face is still flushed and her facial expression decidedly upset.

The way I see it, the point of this aftermath page is to point out that unlike the other tiffs before where Misaki exploded, but quickly returned to normal afterwards, she couldn't shake off this one so easily. I see no indication which would support your theory that she regrets her outburst. Throughout the entire show, Misaki ALWAYS apologized when she felt in the wrong. And it is also contradicted by the anime panel in which she straightens up. This "get a grip on yourself" kind of frame indicates that she considers this incident closed and that she tries to carry on. However, she's still shaken.

Quote:
As kanon78 mentions, Usui doesn't even touch her. Misaki is free to move away at any moment, but in fact Usui leaves before she even has a chance to (this is more evident in the manga).
Usui slams his arm against the wall, bare chested, pinning Misaki there with the arm blocking one escape route sideways. Then he leans into her private space so that their faces are essentially touching, causing Misaki to lower her head to prevent getting kissed. Misaki is flushed and holding the top of her shirt together, visibly scared.

You remind me of the BP CEO. "Really, it's no big deal. Honest."

Quote:
The basis of my 'absolutist' statements lies in obvious authoral intention, something echoed by another poster, and seemingly understood by a majority of the fanbase:
Please excuse my French, but you can shove your so-called "obvious authoral intention" where the sun don't shine. This is merely YOUR personal interpretation of things, nothing more. Like I've shown before, I'm coming to a totally different interpretation, so it can't be all that "obvious" in the first place. And I have the advantage that the manga and PARTICULARLY the anime supports MY interpretation. I take what's shown at face value and interpret things the way they are shown. YOU complain that what the anime shows contradicts your interpretations, and come to the conclusion that it's J.C.Staff's fault for "misrepresenting" things. That there is a much simpler and more logical explanation for this (namely that your interpretation was wrong to begin with) doesn't even seem to occur to you.

Stop hiding behind your make-believe "I know what the author really meant" fig leaf, which is the big brother of your "Yes, Misaki says/does something different, but she doesn't really mean it" excuse. Have the intellectual honesty to start with "In my opinion", then it's all fine.

Quote:
Usui is not a jerk.
That's a subjective judgment for everyone to make for themselves. Misaki clearly considers him one at this stage. I consider him one for his treatment of Misaki. If you think that all this is hunk-a-dory, more power to you. Just can your "if the anime conversion was truthful, everyone would have to love Usui. But since that's obviously not the case, the anime fails" complaint. I like the Usui from the manga, but I STILL consider him a flawed jerk rather than a "perfect lover".

Quote:
Your friend's experience with violent marriage is regrettable. However, violent or aggressive is hardly Usui. You know full well that as for their relationship, Usui would never push Misaki into anything.
Look up the meaning of "never", please. You constantly misapply it. In the parts we've seen so far, he continuously steals embraces with her, and in one case even a kiss on the lips.

Yes, he's no violent husband type. I listed this to indicate that what YOU consider okay can be considered very negatively by people with other histories.

Quote:
Hell, this is the entire point of the Yukimura kiss from ch. 5/ep. 7, which establishes early on just how considerate Usui is of Misaki's comfort and readiness. Yes, Misaki might change Usui, but it's not in making him less of a (so-called) jerk to women--unless you want to count becoming interested in one in the first place.
Touching on future events, so I can't answer indepth. But I do think that Usui develops a higher degree of gentleness and consideration over time. Also, with the higher degree of familiarity between those two, the same action (e.g. hugging someone) becomes acceptable later where it was NOT in the early chapters.

Quote:
Telling me I'm 'neglecting' half of the story simply because I don't buy into your projections of Misaki's suffering is highly disingenuous.
Again, YOU are the one who insists on being in possession of knowledge about the author's true intentions, and that they're not what's shown. I'm merely rejecting YOUR projections/interpretations because on close inspection, they normally fail to hold water. Like the tiff about your claim that "Misaki doesn't mean what she says. That's a pretty huge screwup, huh?", which I subsequently disproved with the screenshot.

I can only repeat what I already said to kanon78: Stop treating Misaki like an idiot who doesn't mean what she says. At the time being, she clearly feels bothered by Usui's "attention" when there's no immediate crisis to deal with (then, she explicitly thanks him where it's warranted). For Misaki, he's a sexual harassment alien jerk by now. And she makes perfectly clear in the few moments where Usui is NOT stalking her (e.g. in the stalker episode ep5 timecode 12:55) that she delights in the peace and quiet without him, where your interpretation postulates that she'd prefer him to be around and keep doing his attacks.

This is the storyline from HER point of view, and I maintain that you lose significant aspects of the character development if you ignore her Usui-induced turmoil by reducing it to mere tsundere dishonesty. It's not. At the very least, not yet. Misaki's irritation at Usui's omnipresence is VERY real, and it's a major milestone in the story progression when she realizes that this has changed, and needs to grapple with the implications of this revelation.

Quote:
Look, guy. Misaki yells 'What are you doing?', not 'Please stop doing it' :P. When she kicks or punches at Usui, she's stepping up to a challenge, not trying to hurt him.
Is that "authoral intention" again? A happy challenge for a friendly fight in the school corridor?

Do you even BELIEVE this nonsense you write?

What she did was yelling "What the hell are you saying, you pervert?!" and trying to punish him by kicking him. His pin-against-the-wall demand of having her strip in the middle of a school corridor was so totally outrageous that she wouldn't merely ignore it or merely push him away this time. What "challenge"? For what? This time she is so pissed that she wants to nail him one into the kisser. Simple as that.

Yare yare.

Quote:
Discomfort is a stimulus. It causes people to grow. Sounds like your version of a 'perfect lover' is someone who (metaphorically) keeps their love trapped in a gilded cage with all their favourite things forever. Hell no is Usui's harassment about self-enjoyment. Do you even understand? Without acclimating Misaki to the idea of herself as a woman, she'd never experience the good fortune of falling in love. Why does Usui keep provoking Misaki? It's for the very same reason why he stops to help her: it's all to help her keep running forward with all her might.
For a "perfect lover", there would be better and less intrusive/abusive ways to do so if it really was Usui's intention of "awakening Misaki's womanhood" or stuff like that. In my recollection, he never (word chosen consciously here) says anything to the effect that he wants to educate her, develop her on or "let her experience the fortune of good love". If I'm mistaken here, I'd appreciate a followup in the manga thread giving concrete chapter sources. There we can also discuss what I consider the major problem in your theory, because it's based on one questionable assumption - I'm referring to c47.

While I wouldn't go so far to deny that Usui might also have the intention you listed, I would consider it secondary at best. What Usui explicitly DOES stress to others - time and time again - is that Misaki is HIS maid. It is HIS privilege to enjoy her this way (so he threatens the trio not to rat on Misaki). HE is the one who has the right to follow Misaki on her path, seeing her struggle and helping her in times of hardships. He does this not because he wants to be with Misaki in terms of becoming a couple, but because he ENJOYS the way things are. In my opinion, _this_ is why he would easily "undo" the kiss with another camouflage kiss with Yukimura. He saw that Misaki couldn't handle it, and that he couldn't spend time with her like before.

All this makes Usui more of a predator (not lover) who is fairly troublesome for Misaki to deal with, but who at the same time can be very handy to have around in times of trouble. My personal ideal of a perfect lover is quite different. Let's leave it at that.

Quote:
Dude, just go read the first chapter again. Or alternatively watch the first episode. The relevant scene was one of the single aspects of that episode I actually liked.
Let me restore the context to that: We were discussing if Misaki really enjoys the interaction with Usui. Your position was "yes, she likes it, she just can't admit it". My position was "no, in the early chapters she would prefer Usui to stop pursuing her this way". Which led to this exchange:

You: You are taking things much too far if you honestly believe Misaki would rather
have him 'behave normally'--if Usui didn't provoke Misaki to chase him, then
why would she ever keep running after him?
Me: She doesn't. Not in the early chapters.
You: Dude, just go and read the first chapter again. [...]

I'm not sure where our misunderstanding is coming from here (there must be one), but Misaki does NOT "keep running after Usui". Up to now, contact between those two has been 99% Usui-induced. In ep1, Misaki sought him out to _thank_ him. It's Usui who chases Misaki, not vice versa. Like in the anime scene I mentioned in which Misaki happily rejoices that Usui is NOT around in the cafe. Is this really something you want to contest?!
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Old 2010-05-24, 09:50   Link #99
Nayrael
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Mentar: can start fun and deep discussions no matter for what story
But yeah, Usui IS a jerk, even if he usually means well. But then again, I am not sure if the manga would be fun if he wasn't a jerk :P
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Old 2010-05-24, 22:13   Link #100
SonOfHeaven
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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Not wanting to get in this discussion.

Spoiler for Chapter 50:
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