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Old 2009-01-06, 03:19   Link #201
That Other Ninja
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What's the difference between a secret ability and a Kekkei Genkai?
Secret abilities/techniques can be passed on to anyone. Kekkei Genkai is specific to one's genetics and clansmen--the same reason why Kakashi can't sustain his Sharingan for prolonged periods of time and using his MS too much puts him into a comatose, bedridden state--because he isn't Uchiha.

But of course, that doesn't mean sick perverts like the Orochimaru's out there can't manipulate the corpse of a person with a Kekkei Genkai and twist it into some design of their own. Yamato would be an example, and the same reason why Hizashi had to die for the Main house, because the Cloud country wanted Hiashi's body as payment for killing the ambassador or whatever who tried to kidnap Hinata (when they only wanted his body to study/disect it for the Byakugan).

Kakashi's another example of this also but the circumstances of him obtaining Sharingan is clearly less perverse.
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Old 2009-01-06, 12:19   Link #202
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Originally Posted by That Other Ninja View Post
Secret abilities/techniques can be passed on to anyone. Kekkei Genkai is specific to one's genetics and clansmen--the same reason why Kakashi can't sustain his Sharingan for prolonged periods of time and using his MS too much puts him into a comatose, bedridden state--because he isn't Uchiha.

But of course, that doesn't mean sick perverts like the Orochimaru's out there can't manipulate the corpse of a person with a Kekkei Genkai and twist it into some design of their own. Yamato would be an example, and the same reason why Hizashi had to die for the Main house, because the Cloud country wanted Hiashi's body as payment for killing the ambassador or whatever who tried to kidnap Hinata (when they only wanted his body to study/disect it for the Byakugan).

Kakashi's another example of this also but the circumstances of him obtaining Sharingan is clearly less perverse.
Umm... How is Yamato a perverse example?
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Old 2009-01-06, 12:58   Link #203
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Umm... How is Yamato a perverse example?
Because Orochimaru busted out a Michael Jackson on Yamato as a kid. Abducted him, experimented on him and who knows what else.
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Old 2009-01-06, 13:06   Link #204
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Because Orochimaru busted out a Michael Jackson on Yamato as a kid. Abducted him, experimented on him and who knows what else.
Seriously, I like Yamato. He's the rebirth of Shodai Hokage and he is amazing, even if he's much weaker than the original.
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Old 2009-01-06, 13:10   Link #205
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Seriously, I like Yamato. He's the rebirth of Shodai Hokage and he is amazing, even if he's much weaker than the original.
I like him also. I think his Kekkei Genkai is the most interesting to come along before Rinnegan and is the basis for why I started this thread so long ago.
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Old 2009-01-06, 13:18   Link #206
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I like him also. I think his Kekkei Genkai is the most interesting to come along before Rinnegan and is the basis for why I started this thread so long ago.
Do you think Orochimaru made these experiments to gain Shodai's power?
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Old 2009-01-06, 13:28   Link #207
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Do you think Orochimaru made these experiments to gain Shodai's power?
Clearly, from an early standpoint, Orochimaru coveted Kekkei Genkai's and has wanted to use their unique abilities for his own ends at world domination.

Starting with Senju Hashirama's unique Mokuton as we can see from his experiments done on Yamato, to other individuals under him like the extraction of Jugo's cursed seal (which may or may not be a Kekkai Genkai), some of the sound four members and notably Sakon/Ukon for their Soma no Ko who were the strongest below Kimimaro, to Kimimaro himself and his Shikotsumyaku who would've been Orochimaru's container had he not been terminally ill and finally Sasuke himself who he coveted for his Sharingan after having been toyed around by Itachi when Orochimaru tried to abduct him and failed.

There are probably more examples that I can't think of at the moment but Orochimaru's whole transference jutsu has more to do with just immortality, but being able to use the unique people and their bodies for their bloodline traits that he seems to covet for their power.
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Old 2009-01-06, 19:06   Link #208
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Clearly, from an early standpoint, Orochimaru coveted Kekkei Genkai's and has wanted to use their unique abilities for his own ends at world domination.
When did Oro say anything about world domination? I know he wanted Kekkei genkai, but I assumed it had to do with his quest for supreme knowledge of jutsu.

Quote:
Starting with Senju Hashirama's unique Mokuton as we can see from his experiments done on Yamato, to other individuals under him like the extraction of Jugo's cursed seal (which may or may not be a Kekkai Genkai), some of the sound four members and notably Sakon/Ukon for their Soma no Ko who were the strongest below Kimimaro, to Kimimaro himself and his Shikotsumyaku who would've been Orochimaru's container had he not been terminally ill and finally Sasuke himself who he coveted for his Sharingan after having been toyed around by Itachi when Orochimaru tried to abduct him and failed.
I never knew Yamato was one of Oro's experiments.
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Old 2009-01-06, 19:20   Link #209
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Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok View Post
When did Oro say anything about world domination? I know he wanted Kekkei genkai, but I assumed it had to do with his quest for supreme knowledge of jutsu.


I never knew Yamato was one of Oro's experiments.
I took it from one of his quotes. I believe it was when he tried his transference jutsu on Sasuke and was shocked when it failed him because of Sasuke's Sharingan. He said "I refuse..., to let this happen! I am Orochimaru! I am immortal! I will not die here! Destined to discover the true meaning behind everything! Destined to take control of everything in this world!!"

And yes, Yamato was one of Orochimaru's early experiments that he believed a failure (along with the rest of the infants that he experimented on by injecting Shodai's DNA with) and that they all died after he had to abandon the experiment when he fled Konoha, but recanted when he encountered Tenzou/Yamato on the bridge after the Gaara Rescue arc.
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Old 2009-01-07, 02:42   Link #210
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He said "I refuse..., to let this happen! I am Orochimaru! I am immortal! I will not die here! Destined to discover the true meaning behind everything! Destined to take control of everything in this world!!"
Err, well I think that was rather about losing control and underestimating Sasuke than it was about world domination.
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Old 2009-01-08, 12:36   Link #211
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Originally Posted by That Other Ninja View Post
I took it from one of his quotes. I believe it was when he tried his transference jutsu on Sasuke and was shocked when it failed him because of Sasuke's Sharingan. He said "I refuse..., to let this happen! I am Orochimaru! I am immortal! I will not die here! Destined to discover the true meaning behind everything! Destined to take control of everything in this world!!"
That seems more like it backs up my idea. "true meaning behind everything"? Orochimaru was an academic. I'd imagine taking control over the world would be a logical extension of that, but not his goal.
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Old 2009-01-08, 14:47   Link #212
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That seems more like it backs up my idea. "true meaning behind everything"? Orochimaru was an academic. I'd imagine taking control over the world would be a logical extension of that, but not his goal.
I guess it's subjective. Perhaps not trying to be a literal ruler of everything but he seemed to want to be on "top" of everything. Unequaled, so-to-speak.
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Old 2009-01-08, 15:15   Link #213
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That seems more like it backs up my idea. "true meaning behind everything"? Orochimaru was an academic. I'd imagine taking control over the world would be a logical extension of that, but not his goal.
Orochimaru's "goal" was to live forever and his obssession with ninjutsu was a cover for his fear of death. Specifically, instead of Orochimaru acknowledging his fear, he covered his emotion behind a veil of "Academia", continuing his pursuit of knowledge rather than confronting his fear of death.

At least, that was always my phychoanalysis of Orochimaru's fucked up exixtence .
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Old 2009-01-08, 15:33   Link #214
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Orochimaru's "goal" was to live forever and his obssession with ninjutsu was a cover for his fear of death. Specifically, instead of Orochimaru acknowledging his fear, he covered his emotion behind a veil of "Academia", continuing his pursuit of knowledge rather than confronting his fear of death.

At least, that was always my phychoanalysis of Orochimaru's fucked up exixtence .
Haaaahaaaahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ;D
No, I think he wanted to learn all the jutsu and thus needed to lengthen his lifespan by switching bodies, needed Sharingan to learn the jutsus faster and of course he wanted to live forever. He had experienced the death of his parents at young age and he saw the white snake as a symbol of... I forgot ^^.

Hmm maybe you are right aswell, but he was definitely after all the jutsus in the world and he was after Sharingan (Itachi/Sasuke). He also was after Kekkei Genkai in general (Kimimaro, various experiments, even on himself).

Will he ever return? Will the world be ready for him?
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Old 2009-01-08, 16:39   Link #215
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Orochimaru's "goal" was to live forever and his obssession with ninjutsu was a cover for his fear of death. Specifically, instead of Orochimaru acknowledging his fear, he covered his emotion behind a veil of "Academia", continuing his pursuit of knowledge rather than confronting his fear of death.

At least, that was always my phychoanalysis of Orochimaru's fucked up exixtence .
Hmm.... That's a little harsh. Can't we agree that he was after both?

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Haaaahaaaahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ;D
No, I think he wanted to learn all the jutsu and thus needed to lengthen his lifespan by switching bodies, needed Sharingan to learn the jutsus faster and of course he wanted to live forever. He had experienced the death of his parents at young age and he saw the white snake as a symbol of... I forgot ^^.

Hmm maybe you are right aswell, but he was definitely after all the jutsus in the world and he was after Sharingan (Itachi/Sasuke). He also was after Kekkei Genkai in general (Kimimaro, various experiments, even on himself).

Will he ever return? Will the world be ready for him?
I know he wanted to use Sharingan in the same way Kakashi does. To gain more jutsu. That said, why wasn't he after the Rinnegan?
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Old 2009-01-08, 16:44   Link #216
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I know he wanted to use Sharingan in the same way Kakashi does. To gain more jutsu. That said, why wasn't he after the Rinnegan?
Maybe he did not know about the Rinnegan. It's not like the Akatsuki meetings were held in Pain's house. No, they were always secret meetings held in caves with holographic projectors. So, I am not even sure if Orochimaru ever meet Pain in person (so to say).

That being said, the Rinnegan seems to only let the individual learn a jutsu (i.e. the body has all affinities, so no real training is required to master elemental affinities), but not automatically copy the jutsu. So, in that respect, it is weaker than the Sharingan, but stronger since all jutsu are automatically open for use, even if they have to be learned first.
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Old 2009-01-08, 16:46   Link #217
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Maybe he did not know about the Rinnegan. It's not like the Akatsuki meetings were held in Pain's house. No, they were always secret meetings held in caves with holographic projectors. So, I am not even sure if Orochimaru ever meet Pain in person (so to say).

That being said, the Rinnegan seems to only let the individual learn a jutsu (i.e. the body has all affinities, so no real training is required to master elemental affinities), but not automatically copy the jutsu. So, in that respect, it is weaker than the Sharingan, but stronger since all jutsu are automatically open for use, even if they have to be learned first.
Hm, I understand the theory of him never seeing Rinnegan, but didn't he meet Nagato at some point?

Also, I think Oro could've replicated the rinnegan's elemental abilities with his experiments.
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Old 2009-01-08, 16:54   Link #218
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^The only confirmed meeting between Orochimaru and Nagato was when Nagato and the Ame-Orphans were little kids (during the 2nd Great Shinobi War). During that encounter Nagato did not use the Rinnegan, and later on, Pain did not use the Yahiko body when talking to his subordinates. So, it is unknown if Oorchimaru ever knew he was working with someone he knew from back in Ame during the 2nd war.

(It is possible, though, that Orochimaru did recognize Konan through the holographic projections.)

Also, Orochimaru could have replicated the innegan's basic ability (all elemental affinities) by simply coming up with a Kakuzu-esque solution - take the affinity from others and then implant it into himself (maybe this was one of the reasons for the Yamato/Mokuton experiments).
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Old 2009-01-08, 16:56   Link #219
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The only confirmed meeting between Orochimaru and Nagato was when he and the Ame-Orphans were little kids (during the 2nd Great Shinobi War). During that encounter Nagato did not use the Rinnegan, and later on, Pain did not use the Yahiko body when talking to his subordinates. So, it is unknown if Oorchimaru ever knew he was working with someone he knew from back in Ame during the 2nd war.

(It is possible, though, that Orochimaru did recognize Konan through the holographic projections.)
I was thinking that, but not sure. They would've recognised him, though, right?

Quote:
And, Orochimaru could have replicated the innegan's basic ability (all elemental affinities) by simply coming up with a Kakuzu-esque solution - take the affinity from others and then emplant it into himself (maybe this was one of the reasons for the Yamato/Mokuton experiments).
Again, we're on the same page here, too.
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Old 2009-01-08, 18:23   Link #220
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I think Rin'negan can't copy ninjutsu, so I guess it's just not Orochimaru's taste, no matter what it can do. Orochimaru is also pretty narcistic and maybe he only wanted his only body. He turned other bodies into his own after all. Why should he bother if he wouldn't care? No no, he always bothered and changed the face into his.
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