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Old 2007-05-23, 17:00   Link #21
Kyu410
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Hunter is brilliant isn't he, beating people to things. How does he do that?

Anyway I have a question. Did Shodai have super strength? If so shouldn't Tsunade have learned Mokuton as well.

I believe that maybe Tsunade's younger brother knew Mokuton.
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Old 2007-05-23, 17:06   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Kyu410 View Post
Hunter is brilliant isn't he, beating people to things. How does he do that?

Anyway I have a question. Did Shodai have super strength? If so shouldn't Tsunade have learned Mokuton as well.

I believe that maybe Tsunade's younger brother knew Mokuton.
Once you are all old and rotten you will use that expanded dying experiences you have to teach the young and growing people. Obviously it'll be new to most people and that why people respect old men/women. Because of their experience ...

Actually i am amazed that Hunter still can talk that much on his old day ..he must have a strong heart eh?
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Old 2007-05-23, 17:16   Link #23
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Kisame said so, but that's the question that came, Kisame, or the translator choice of word, made it look as if He was mixing elements, to create new ones.
It does seem so since "Youton" more likely indicate the ability to fusion elements in general.

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Damm, Hunter, once again you beat me to it....
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Kyu410 : Tsunade's monstrous strength is actually obtained through precise chakra control so no, as far as we know, Shodai didn't have super-strength and it isn't genetic anyway.
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Old 2007-05-23, 18:57   Link #24
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Kyu410 : Tsunade's monstrous strength is actually obtained through precise chakra control so no, as far as we know, Shodai didn't have super-strength and it isn't genetic anyway.
I thought he did? When they fought on the rooftop during the chuunin finals, Shodaime got in a punch to Sarutobi's face, I recall him mentioning his insane strength. Something Tsunade learned from him. Note that I said "learned" not inherited.
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Old 2007-05-24, 03:17   Link #25
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Anime filler, in the manga Sandaime comments about his strength in general but nothing about particular physical feat. In fact in took a kick from both Shodai and Nidaime at the same time and it didn't particulary phase him.
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Old 2007-05-24, 03:41   Link #26
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about the mixed elements, the translation I have say "it requires strength to bring forth a new nature", "something like a bloodline limit"
The words "strength" and "something like" always made me think there are BL which allow you to fuse elements, but if you are good/strong enough, you can do without it. (like 4-tails, who can use many elemental fusion)

Of course, maybe the translation I use is wrong and I am overthinking.
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Old 2007-05-24, 07:44   Link #27
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Actually that's exactly what Kakashi said : being able to merge elements is a Kekkai Genkai.
A Kekkai Genkai doesn't have to pass to the whole family, this idea comes from the most used translation : bloodline, which is technically incorrect.

On a side note it seems the 4 tails was also able to merge elements.
Actually, I think of what the 4 tails did to be comprable to what Kakuzu did. I think when they were talking about "elemental fusions" in a recent chapter refering to the 4 tails, I imagined that it was doing stuff like drowning maelstrom that Naruto/Yamato performed or absolute pain from Kakuzu...

I also think that the idea that a kekkai genkai has to pass to everyone in the family is flawed. Just like any other genetic trait, it can be dominant or recessive. Furthermore, it could be controlled by multiple alleles, which would explain a lot in the series.

For example, I would think that Mokuton and Kimmimaro's abilities would be controlled by a single recessive allele, which would make it incredibly rare, and perhaps cause it to be bred out. However, natural selection has allowed those traits to survive in very small numbers because they are the utmost in power.

Comparing this to the Hyuuga clan, I think that this ability is controlled by one dominant allele (dictating the presence or absense) and several other alleles in a combination of dominant and recessive which correspond to how strong the kekkai genkai manifests itself in an individual. This is similar to hair color or height, in that multiple alleles correspond to increased variation.

Edit: On a related note, the original poster was correct. Regardless of how Shodaime's Mokuton became a part of him (whether it was genetic or not), Yamato's is now definately genetic. Anything in your genes has some capacity to be passed on to the next generation.
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Old 2007-05-24, 09:47   Link #28
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Man, as soon as I read the first page and first post of this thread, I knew people such as Rurik, Hunter, Sabaku Kyu =p already beat me to all the explanations haha. I was right.

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Originally Posted by othafa View Post
Actually, I think of what the 4 tails did to be comprable to what Kakuzu did. I think when they were talking about "elemental fusions" in a recent chapter refering to the 4 tails, I imagined that it was doing stuff like drowning maelstrom that Naruto/Yamato performed or absolute pain from Kakuzu...
Precisely, using two "elements" together is - nothing - compared to creating a new "element", everything here has already been said most jounins can use two "elements" separately, and together but not combine them to create a new "element".

A Kekkai Genkai comes down to this in the end, its separation and re-composition at the molecular level, taking two molecules / element break them down in to base elements then reconstruct them in to a new molecule / element. In other words the periodic table of elements. To be honest, there is allot of confusion because the Manga uses the word "Elements".

Example -> A Water Molecule consists of H2O 1 Hydrogen ELEMENT and 2 Oxygen ELEMENT, basically you take two molecules break them down to base elements then reconstruct them in to a new molecule. Apparently, Mokuton takes "Earth" and "Water" to make "Wood". However, in this case, water and earth is not an element the real elements are what makes up water and earth, separating them then reconstructing them in to a new molecule / element <- wood.

The word element is confusing because it can be said, this juice contains the element of water, however water it self is made up of 2 elements 1 Hydrogen and 2 Oxygen (Meaning, this water contains the elements Hydrogen and Oxygen). Hence is why its confusing, sounds pretty hard for a mere jounen to do isn’t it =p.

What Sandaime did was mix water and earth to make mud <- anyone can do that even a human, its - not - a new element. What Yamato and Naruto did was mix Water and Air to create a water tornado, or a torrent both elements are there. It would be a whole different thing when you break down the Water Molecule H2O, in to 1 Hydrogen and 2 Oxygen elements and break down a fire Molecule and recomposing those base elements in to a new molecule.

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I also think that the idea that a kekkai genkai has to pass to everyone in the family is flawed.
I dont remember seeing that anywhere in the Manga, in fact the Manga clearly shows that just because your an Uchiha doesn’t mean you will acquire the Sharingan.

In term of the Byakugan its obvious, and they keep "breeding with in the family” wither the gene is dominant or recessive I don’t know most likely It is a dominant gene. It's the same as if your father has black hair, your mother has blond hair, you will have black hair because it is the more dominant gene. Unless your father had a recessive blond gene, then you would have blond hair. Most likely the Byakugan is strong with in Neji because both of Neji's mother and father had either "B" Gene or, "Nb" "bb" = B. In other words he is "pure blood" or so to speak.

Here’s an example of why Mokuton was not passed down to Tsunade, lets say that the gene M stands for Mokuton, most likely shodaime had a recessive gene lets call it "r" obviously the person shodaime would have to be "rr" for the child of Shodaime (who was either Tsunade's mother or father) to not have the Mokuton. There are so many different combinations that could cause the Mokuton gene to be lost, for all we know Mokuton could have been a recessive gene and not even dominant, meaning Shodaime's gene looked like this "mm" the person he married had something like "DD" so the kid had "D" etc...

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Anything in your genes has some capacity to be passed on to the next generation.
Yes, depending on who you mate with yes it has the capacity to pass, if your gene is "BA" and you marry some one thats "A" your kid is going to have "A" or if your "Ab" (black hair) and you marry some one that’s "bb" (blond hair) your kid is going to have blond hair.

In terms of Tsunade's monstrous strength it has already been explained, its due to precise chakra control (which is also another reason she is good at medical jutsu) a little more in-depth would be the explanation that that Kakashi gives about Sakura and how she has that strength during the chapter when Sakura and Naruto are trying to get the bells from Kakashi after time skip.
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Old 2007-05-24, 10:17   Link #29
othafa
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I dont remember seeing that anywhere in the Manga, in fact the Manga clearly shows that just because your an Uchiha doesn’t mean you will acquire the Sharingan.
Right, it wasn't. I was commenting on a post that someone had made earlier.

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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
In term of the Byakugan its obvious, and they keep "breeding with in the family” wither the gene is dominant or recessive I don’t know most likely It is a dominant gene. It's the same as if your father has black hair, your mother has blond hair, you will have black hair because it is the more dominant gene. Unless your father had a recessive blond gene, then you would have blond hair. Most likely the Byakugan is strong with in Neji because both of Neji's mother and father had either "B" Gene or, "Nb" "bb" = B. In other words he is "pure blood" or so to speak.
Genetics don't work quite that way. Just because both of your parents have dark skin doesn't mean that your skin will be extra dark. Thats the point I was trying to make with multiple alleles. In genetic traits that have a wide range of possible outcomes, like hair color or skin color or height, those traits are actually governed by multiple genes at the same time, all of which combine to display a trait. Also, it was never indicated that the hyuuga inbreed. I only speculate that the Hyuuga trait (presence or absence) is a dominant trait because many children seem to acquire it. I only think that its across many alleles because it has a high variance between those it appears in.

Just to clarify what multiple alleles means, the possible combinations of just two alleles are (AABB, AABb, AAbb, AaBB, AaBb, Aabb, aaBB, aaBb, aabb) Note how we've just jumped from 3 variations to 9 on the same trait.

Edit: because I originally said 8 instead of 9 (I can count)

Another possible explaination (perhaps in conjunction) is the concept of "hybrid vigor". In genetics, things tend to work the opposite of the way you explained above. Generally speaking, there are three possible combinations that define a single allele (we'll call them AA, Aa, aa). In nature, those who most strongly display a trait are not those who carry two dominant genes (AA) but actually are those who display the dominant gene, but also carry the recessive one (Aa).

Look it up. Its actually a pretty cool concept to read about.

Last edited by othafa; 2007-05-24 at 10:31.
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Old 2007-05-24, 10:41   Link #30
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In nature, those who most strongly display a trait are not those who carry two dominant genes (AA) but actually are those who display the dominant gene, but also carry the recessive one (Aa).
Hmm that is pretty interesting, I assumed that most likely the Byakugan is stronger with in Neji due to him having both dominant genes "BB", but what your saying is that "Bb" would be a stronger display of the Byakugan. Hmm actually now that I think about it, I see why that makes more sense. However mind if I ask you to provide me with some information on why this is? Like a link or something, I want to see if what I'm deducting is correct.
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Old 2007-05-24, 10:56   Link #31
othafa
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Next time try google, but I'll give you this one for free.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis

Scientists don't actually know why this is...its just an observed phenomenon. The link above, however, can provide you with several hypotheses.

My favorite example of hybrid vigor is the Liger (yes they actually exist). They cannot possibly be pure blooded animals, since they are sterile and the only way they can be created is by cross-breeding a male lion and a female tiger. However, despite not being pure-blooded, these animals are the largest cats on the planet (larger than either of their pure-blooded parents).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger

I've actually had the pleasure of seeing Hercules up close. It was awe inspiring...hes sooooooo huge.

Edit: only the males are sterile, but my point remains valid.
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Old 2007-05-24, 11:00   Link #32
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Next time try google, but I'll give you this one for free.
Haha, thanks I usually wouldn’t ask because I'm pretty good at what I do o_O;. XD However, I'm being lazy due to the fact I'm playing World of Warcraft as we speak. Level 70 Warrior, in Windrunner Server named "Silegna" Hoooo! Oh and some rep for taking the time to retrieve that info for me =).
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Old 2007-05-24, 12:38   Link #33
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Also, I just now read to the bottom of the heterosis article, and apparently it is displayed in DBZ as well, with human/saiyan children showing more potential (and becoming super saiyans) much earlier in their age. I'm therefore not surprised that Kishi may be including it in his stories...
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Old 2007-05-24, 12:50   Link #34
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I find it interesting that some of you bring science into this and I like it, but sadly i'm sure given the fact that this is a completely fictional series, chemistry or whatever might not apply at all on Kishimoto's whim. ;\

But if it did i'm sure it would make sense.

So some Kekkei Genkai's are ability specific, while others have the ability to naturally combine elements. Water and earth = Wood. Water + Wind = Ice. Naruto's Rasenshuriken is just Wind infused into his chakra... assuming he learns to master a second element, what would it be? And what would be the result? Wind and... earth (this is just random daydreaming) would create uh....... is there even a naturally occuring form of matter that's Wind and Earth? Hail? No that's wind and water. A sandstorm? That sounds a bit Gaara-ish. A Tornado? Volcano? I dunno I can't think of anything atm.
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Old 2007-05-24, 13:07   Link #35
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Most people, including authors, natural incorporate many scientific principles into their work without realizing it. Notice how people in the Naruto universe stand on the ground by default, and it warrants an explaination when people walk on trees and stuff. Thats gravity.

Also, many of the explainations found in Naruto do have physiological and scientific basis in truth, which is pretty much the primary reason I like to read Naruto. I hate it when stories don't give explainations for power, or when those explainations are complete crap when considered with respect to how things actually happen. However, Naruto never does stupid stuff like that, and I have yet to read an explaination in the series that I wasn't able to say "ok, that makes sense" about. Granted, there are parts of Naruto that are entirely fictional, and thats ok too, because they don't require scientific basis. However, this style of exposition allows me to suspend my disbelief far easier than with most mangas and animes.
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Old 2007-05-24, 13:22   Link #36
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Most people, including authors, natural incorporate many scientific principles into their work without realizing it. Notice how people in the Naruto universe stand on the ground by default, and it warrants an explaination when people walk on trees and stuff. Thats gravity.

Also, many of the explainations found in Naruto do have physiological and scientific basis in truth, which is pretty much the primary reason I like to read Naruto. I hate it when stories don't give explainations for power, or when those explainations are complete crap when considered with respect to how things actually happen. However, Naruto never does stupid stuff like that, and I have yet to read an explaination in the series that I wasn't able to say "ok, that makes sense" about. Granted, there are parts of Naruto that are entirely fictional, and thats ok too, because they don't require scientific basis. However, this style of exposition allows me to suspend my disbelief far easier than with most mangas and animes.
I agree, so far. I'm just saying if some inconsistency shows up with this element fusion = kekkei genkai thing then we shouldn't be surprised. And for now, taking factual science and applying it to Naruto, then seeing that as the reality of the series isn't reliable. I mean we don't even know if its the same planet we occupy (seems like it but can't say for certain until stated otherwise), with these imaginary countries and what not and their seemingly outdated technology.
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Old 2007-05-24, 13:25   Link #37
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I agree, so far. I'm just saying if some inconsistency shows up with this element fusion = kekkei genkai thing then we shouldn't be surprised. And for now, taking factual science and applying it to Naruto, then seeing that as the reality of the series isn't reliable. I mean we don't even know if its the same planet we occupy (seems like it but can't say for certain until stated otherwise), with these imaginary countries and what not and their seemingly outdated technology.
Go read some of the interviews Kishi's given about the Naruto universe if you're confused. Hes made it pretty clear.
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Old 2007-05-24, 13:29   Link #38
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Go read some of the interviews Kishi's given about the Naruto universe if you're confused. Hes made it pretty clear.
Sorry, i'm at work and don't have time to hunt down that particular information out of his many interviews i'm assuming.

Anyway, I can't think of any natural substance that would implicate wind and earth. Maybe some other phenomena... gravity? Blackhole Rasengan? *laughs*
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Old 2007-05-24, 16:08   Link #39
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Anyway, I can't think of any natural substance that would implicate wind and earth. Maybe some other phenomena... gravity? Blackhole Rasengan? *laughs*
I was thinking the same thing, something related to gravity.
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Old 2007-05-24, 20:22   Link #40
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